Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: john on April 14, 2017, 12:19:33 PM
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A female doctor in the USA has carried out many such operations (sic) over many years.
Of course she may as she claims be "not guilty" but it is good to see that one government somewhere seems to be trying to get a grip on this hideous practice.
Cannot understand why there have never been any prosecutions here in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39597062
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A female doctor in the USA has carried out many such operations (sic) over many years.
Of course she may as she claims be "not guilty" but it is good to see that one government somewhere seems to be trying to get a grip on this hideous practice.
Cannot understand why there have never been any prosecutions here in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39597062
There has to be proof for the courts to prosecute and as with these things the communities involved in them tend to have a code of silence and secrecy. Also it may mean rating on your parents etc. which could not only have emotional consequences but also social ones as well.
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It happens here and always has. British doctors do it. I too am surprised there aren't more prosecutions over here. The surgeons justify it by saying it will be done anyway and better done by a professional in hygienic surroundings.
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There is NEVER any justification for performing FGM. >:(
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It happens here and always has. British doctors do it. I too am surprised there aren't more prosecutions over here. The surgeons justify it by saying it will be done anyway and better done by a professional in hygienic surroundings.
I find that hard to believe. If the doctors know the child then they know the parents and then the police can be involved in investigating it.
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It's done on the quiet, Jack, private clinics and all that. Illegal operations have always happened where there is demand unfortunately. It's quite beyond my understanding how anyone could justify doing something like that but money talks and there are unscrupulous people in every society.
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When health checks are carried out on kids maybe looking out for signs of FGM should be routine.
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Teachers and suchlike are told about signs to be looked for, often unmistakeable. Nor sure every kid should have their bits looked at by doctors routinely, there would be objections to that from the kids themselves and it would have to be same rule for all. Prevention is the answer, once done it's too late. Girls often go to another country, parents' country, for a trip and have it done there. Then there are foreign docs who come here and perform FGM, it's not difficult to set up a clinic in a big private house. They will be arrested and charged if caught but rarely caught, just like the British doctors who do it. There's a culture of secrecy.
It's such an ancient practice which has great importance for some groups. Much education is needed to break this horrible tradition & it's up to women to do this.
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I think circumcision of boys for religious reasons is also very wrong, it should only be performed if there is a medical need.
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That doesn't do harm though & is cleaner. I can't see male circumcision being banned,all the Jews, Muslims & many Africans would be up in arms about it, they've been circumcised forever without problems.
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That doesn't do harm though & is cleaner. I can't see male circumcision being banned,all the Jews, Muslims & many Africans would be up in arms about it, they've been circumcised forever without problems.
Not what some think
https://www.circinfo.org/USA_deaths.html
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In the USA it is common practice for all not just religious. More care needs to be taken with anaesthetics & cleanliness but not banning.
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In the USA it is common practice for all not just religious. More care needs to be taken with anaesthetics & cleanliness but not banning.
It should be banned until the person can choose for themselves
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I agree with you BeR. From what I've read & heard, used to be 'fashionable' here years ago too but is not done routinely now. However I won't interfere with religious beliefs of others, respects Jews & Muslims and haven't heard of Jewish boys dying after circumcisiion. If they change the rules & deicide for themselves circumcision is no longer a necessary part of their belief so be it but can imagine the outcry if they were banned from doing it; itwould be driven underground (like FGM & there's no comparison between male circumcision & FGM),and that would be far worse! It's a simple procedure, rite of passage, no need for any child to be ill or die because of it.
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That doesn't do harm though & is cleaner. I can't see male circumcision being banned,all the Jews, Muslims & many Africans would be up in arms about it, they've been circumcised forever without problems.
Children are not consenting though. If you, as an adult, want to get your bits cut then by all means.
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Yes, Robinson is right. Male genital mutilation was fashionable. I was a victim of that fashion.
At a few days of age, in the privacy of my mother's bedroom, a midwife removed my prepuce. Shortly after their births, those of my brothers were similarly removed. To the best of my knowledge no doctor was involved and nor was my father (though he, too, was without prepuce). Midwives offered the additional service and possessed a little device to grip and slice off the small sliver of skin. There was no anaesthesia. It was a conspiracy between women - as its female equivalent.
I doubt that circumcision will ever be shown happening in Call The Midwife.
When I changed for PE or swimming, I realised that a majority of boys my age had been similarly treated.
Its origin appears to have been the USA and I suppose the American use of the English language is the reason it was not practised in Continental Europe. It was advocated originally by John Harvey Kellogg, a man who demonised sexual intercourse (and also invented a breakfast cereal that was so lacking in nutrients that it would not provide energy that could be wasted in sexual activity). He believed that removal of the prepuce would reduce the physical sensations of coitus and hence make it less attractive. Certainly, it removes the most highly innervated tissue of the male sexual apparatus.
To say that there is no comparison between FGN and MGN is disingenuous, Robinson, they both involve removal of highly innervated structures without the informed consent of the possessor of those structures, though I do agree that FGN is more destructive.
Kellogg's distaste for sexual activity became translated into a need for "hygiene" and the belief that a circumcised penis would not harbour dangerous bacteria in its folds. Naive, enthusiastic young mothers were convinced of the advantages of "cleanliness" and, presumably, the additional service became a nice little earner for midwives.
It was a conspiracy between women.
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Need we ask which retarded religions 'require' this ????
Nick
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And, of course, there is harm on some religious practice of MGM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170825/New-York-wants-ban-Jewish-circumcision-ritual-causes-fatal-HERPES-babies.html
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There's no fashion for it here now and it wouldn't be my choice for a child to have it without medical reason but I know how important it is to Jews so, what do we do? If we campaigned against it and it was made illegal it would send the practice underground which would be far less safe,as well as accusations of anti-semitism.
Harrowby I had no idea midwives performed circumcision! You're right it isn't shown on Call the Midwife. Neither did I know about the breakfast cereal man.
In the autobiography by John Cleese, he tells of when he went away to school and the boys asked him if he was a Cavalier or a Roundhead, names for uncircumised and circumcised.
NearlyS - just read the Mail link and that practice of sucking the wound sounds seriously weird as well as dangerous. It's good that Rabbi said it is primitive nonsense.
Nick, you asked what 'primitive religions' require circumcision.Jews are the ones we think of first of all but Muslims do it too on older boys, both Abrahamic religions whcih you might think of as primitive, I don't know. Most African men are circumcised regardless of religion.
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That doesn't do harm though & is cleaner. I can't see male circumcision being banned,all the Jews, Muslims & many Africans would be up in arms about it, they've been circumcised forever without problems.
This is not true.
http://healthland.time.com/2012/06/07/how-11-new-york-city-babies-contracted-herpes-through-circumcision/
Circumcision is an irreversible procedure with no medical justification in most cases. It should not be performed on anybody who is unable to give consent.
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jeremy - from yesterday:
And, of course, there is harm on some religious practice of MGM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170825/New-York-wants-ban-Jewish-circumcision-ritual-causes-fatal-HERPES-babies.html
& comments, haven't read all yet except yours.
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There's no fashion for it here now and it wouldn't be my choice for a child to have it without medical reason but I know how important it is to Jews so, what do we do? If we campaigned against it and it was made illegal it would send the practice underground which would be far less safe,as well as accusations of anti-semitism.
If there was a religious sect that had the practice of cutting the baby's little finger off, how would you feel about that? Would you let them carry on because otherwise it would only go underground?
I have no problem with the idea of Jews being circumcised to signify their religion (although it seems bizarre to signify it by cutting a bit off that most people won't ever see), but they need to do it when the person is able to consent and after that person has decided, of their own free will, that they really do want Judaism to be their religion.
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I agree. My first sexual partner was circumcised just because it was the fashion at the time and it wasn't good. Blokes have that bit for a reason. If they choose to get rid of it for aesthetic or religious purposes then they should do so as an adult when it is a free choice (I think this gives it a far more weight as a religious act anyway).
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jeremy- If there was a religious sect that had the practice of cutting the baby's little finger off, how would you feel about that? Would you let them carry on because otherwise it would only go underground?
No!
Rhiannon - never had a problem with a circumcised man :-[ (yet).
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jeremy- If there was a religious sect that had the practice of cutting the baby's little finger off, how would you feel about that? Would you let them carry on because otherwise it would only go underground?
No!
And yet you make excuses for Judaism.
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Just putting the other side jp. It's not something I'd want for any kid of mine without medical reason, already said that.
It would be helfpul if we had a couple of Jews or Muslims on here, better than me saying what I think they'd say.
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Nick, you asked what 'primitive religions' require circumcision.Jews are the ones we think of first of all but Muslims do it too on older boys, both Abrahamic religions whcih you might think of as primitive, I don't know. Most African men are circumcised regardless of religion.
I said retarded not primitive & it has a whole different meaning & I really meant it. I have NO, ZERO, tolerance for physical mutilations of most kinds, tattoos an exemption.
God 'needs' - wants you to cut yourself in parts ?!?!!?!? OH YEAH ????
Would this have been some semi-underground sign for Jews to 'recognise' each other?
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Very sorry about saying primitive instead of retarded Nick. I read the word 'primitive' in another post and it stuck in my brain cell. It was about Rabbi Tendler saying the - weird (perverted imo)certain practice by some rabbis after circumciion - highlighted by NearlySane (& later by jeremy), being 'primitive nonsense'. Gave me the creeps.
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I said retarded not primitive & it has a whole different meaning & I really meant it. I have NO, ZERO, tolerance for physical mutilations of most kinds, tattoos an exemption.
God 'needs' - wants you to cut yourself in parts ?!?!!?!? OH YEAH ????
Would this have been some semi-underground sign for Jews to 'recognise' each other?
I have a different view. Consenting adults should be able to do what they want. People do all sorts of destructive things to themselves. Who am I to judge.
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This thread isn't about adults though, Splashcuba. It is about children, girls undergoing FGM and went on to infant males being circumcised. Neither appear to have any choice in the matter.
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God 'needs' - wants you to cut yourself in parts ?!?!!?!? OH YEAH ????
Would this have been some semi-underground sign for Jews to 'recognise' each other?
Circumcision is a surprisingly widespread ... err ... custom. It was probably endemic in the areas in which the Jewish religion developed. it may well have assimilated into its practices. The covenant between Abraham and God was probably a kind of post-hoc rationalisation
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This thread isn't about adults though, Splashcuba. It is about children, girls undergoing FGM and went on to infant males being circumcised. Neither appear to have any choice in the matter.
I certainly had no choice in the matter. I was only a few days old at the time.
Despite my best intentions my own son was circumcised. In retrospect, the circumstances were disturbing.
When he was about six years old he had a routine examination by the school doctor. She determined that his prepuce was adhering to the glans and she determined that he should be circumcised. We were told to see our GP. The GP, a woman, arranged an appointment at the hospital, my son was circumcised, under general anaesthetic, by a surgeon and was allowed to return home in the evening.
In retrospect two things caused me concern. One was that the GP did not assess my son, nor did she ask us whether we wanted to go ahead with the operation, nor did she give us any information about the need for surgery or of any alternative treatments. I later learned that adhesions may be disappear around puberty.
The other cause for concern was that several other boys at my son's school were similarly diagnosed by the same woman. In retrospect it seems that she may have had some kind of agenda. Perhaps she was related to John Harvey Kellogg!
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Surely you had to sign a consent form Harrowby?
It does sound disturbing but circumcision often gets rid of problems for good, my cousin's boy had one aged about six and he was OK afterwards. Plus I know a couple, well the man, had it done after he was married because he had some difficulties, didn't ask what. He was fine, had kids.
If it is for sound medical reasons there's no problem but the controversy is over babies having the procedure for religious reasons.
There are no religious reasons for FGM, it's cultural & the girls don't just have a little bit cut off but a whole lot, then stitched up tightly back to front with a little hole in the middle. Horrible to even think of.
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Surely you had to sign a consent form Harrowby?
It does sound disturbing but circumcision often gets rid of problems for good, my cousin's boy had one aged about six and he was OK afterwards. Plus I know a couple, well the man, had it done after he was married because he had some difficulties, didn't ask what. He was fine, had kids.
If it is for sound medical reasons there's no problem but the controversy is over babies having the procedure for religious reasons.
There are no religious reasons for FGM, it's cultural & the girls don't just have a little bit cut off but a whole lot, then stitched up tightly back to front with a little hole in the middle. Horrible to even think of.
what's the difference between religion and cultural here?
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Do you mean for FGM? FGM is an ancient practice, In a documentary I heard one elderly West African lady say the practice was "As old as Africa"; it was made illegal in Nigeria in the 1950s but still happens in remote places, usually performed by grandmothers. It is done regardless of religion,whether they're Christian, Muslim or adhere to one of the older religions.
It happens in predominantly Muslim countries such as Ethiopia and even Egypt but has nothing to do with the Qu'ran.
The Somali government issued a fatwa against the practice not that long ago (but still happens).
The Saudis are trying to stop it, it's not common practice but it happens in Southern regions bordering on Yemen.
https://stopfgmmiddleeast.wordpress.com/countries/saudi-arabia/
Although it is forbidden by Jewish law FGM customary in Ethiopia amongst the Beta Israel.
Some Christian communities from Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania consider FGM to be a religious requirement;they're wrong but it's a custom firmly ingrained in their culture.
There's no religion that insists on female genital mutilation, indeed some are firmly against it. Nevertheless it happens and has happened for generations amongst people from various parts of the world.
(We don't have to touch on FGM performed in the USA and here, probably other places, on women like ourselves who were judged to be morally lax or in moral danger, that's a different story.)
A very good book to read is Alice Walker's novel, 'Possessing the Secret of Joy'. It's well researched and informative on the subject of female circumcision.
Male circumcision is a religious practice for Jews and Muslims but happens for other, non-medical, reasons too.
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I mean why do you think we should treat cultural vs religious practices differently?
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I don't say we should treat them differently but there is a difference in meaning between culture and religion even though the lines are often blurred.
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I don't say we should treat them differently but there is a difference in meaning between culture and religion even though the lines are often blurred.
Sowhat is the difference? And what, if any,relevance does the difference have to the discussion?
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Don't you know the difference? You can google and find it but I'm sure you do know.
As for relevance to the discussion I wanted to show that the practice is ancient and widespread, bigger if you like than any religion.
If you don't find it relevant just ignore. I'm off to bed.
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I mean why do you think we should treat cultural vs religious practices differently?
Do you really require an answer to that one?
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Don't you know the difference? You can google and find it but I'm sure you do know.
As for relevance to the discussion I wanted to show that the practice is ancient and widespread, bigger if you like than any religion.
If you don't find it relevant just ignore. I'm off to bed.
Effectively they are both just sets of beliefs about how you should behave here, so no, I don't see what the difference is. But the reason I am confused by your approach is that ypu stated in Reply 13
'However I won't interfere with religious beliefs of others, respects Jews & Muslims and haven't heard of Jewish boys dying after circumcisiion.'
This does not seem to be your approach as regards what you see as cultural beliefs, so you seem at that point to be arguing for what are religious beliefs to be treated differently.
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Surely you had to sign a consent form Harrowby?
It was thirty years ago. This is a detail I do not remember.
And anyway, this was before that revolutionary change that occurred in the relationship between general practitioner and patient that was precipitated by the arrest and trial of Harold Shipman.
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Oh yes, people didn't question doctors years ago. I remember my mum agreeing with the GP regardless of how we might feel. Not like that in my time & doctors are glad of that too, so much responsibility was on them back in the day. I hope your son was OK after the op, presume he is hale and hearty.
Going back to FGM, there are organisations we can support which fight it. It doesn't sound like much but is at least something we can do and the more voices raised, the more are heard. It all starts with women who have to be educated to think differently. Those who do have the loudest voices & are listened to.
Don't think I can say more on this subject. (I dreamed about it last night! That happens when I can't stop thinking about something & today I will avoid it.)
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This thread isn't about adults though, Splashcuba. It is about children, girls undergoing FGM and went on to infant males being circumcised. Neither appear to have any choice in the matter.
Yes I know.
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Male circumcision is a religious practice for Jews and Muslims but happens for other, non-medical, reasons too.
Other reasons ....
https://www.babble.com/mom/3-strange-uses-for-infant-foreskins/
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A female doctor in the USA has carried out many such operations (sic) over many years.
Of course she may as she claims be "not guilty" but it is good to see that one government somewhere seems to be trying to get a grip on this hideous practice.
Cannot understand why there have never been any prosecutions here in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39597062
It does make you wonder why nobody has been prosecuted here. The NSPCC estimate there are over 130,000 victims in the UK yet not a single one. Makes you wonder what the feminists believe is worth campaigning for.
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Mutilation for the sake of religion or culture should be a crime, which is taken very seriously.
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It does make you wonder why nobody has been prosecuted here. The NSPCC estimate there are over 130,000 victims in the UK yet not a single one. Makes you wonder what the feminists believe is worth campaigning for.
But that makes it an issue worth campaigning for, surely. There is a kind of cultural cowardice on the part of police forces - West Midlands force says that education is better than prosecution. Woolly-minded "liberal" social workers do not want to upset minority communities.
Parents need to know that they do not own their children. Girls being taken out of the country for ritual mutilation should be considered to be a criminal offence. Perhaps there should be a duty for medical practitioners, nurses, health care and social workers to report all instances of suspected mutilation AND a duty for police and other authorities to investigate each reported incident.
The apparent lack of activity with respect to actual female genital mutilation contrasts sharply with the flurry of activity seen when a report is made about historic sexual abuse - especially when the alleged perpetrator is long dead!
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Item from the BBC website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-39630199
FGM victims discovered - on average - every three days by midwives and clinicians in Wales.