Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on May 12, 2017, 08:14:18 AM
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Somewhat related to the question of perception being discussed on Searching for God thread currently, I read the story below thinking that anyone who gets something from the story of Fatima that is of great importance, is perceiving the world is a way I have no understanding of.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39885741
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Hmmmmmmmmmm! The brain can create all sorts of images as I know for a fact. As I have said boringly often, for a second or two I saw what looked like the picture book version of Mary on May17th 1997. This was in a field we owned at our previous property. I saw it after an Irish couple had claimed to see it too, and been cured of their ailments. I now firmly believe I saw what I wanted to see, just as others, claimed to have seen her in our field!
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From an outsiders perspective, since I was never exposed to religious dogma, this kind of thing looks like no more than adherence to authority and tradition by people for whom religion, in this case RC, is an important aspect of their lifestyle: to me it does look very like created rituals (crawling on hands and knees etc) reinforced by associated learned behaviours, and in that respect it seems similar to the Muslim Haj.
Like NS, I just don't get it.
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Somewhat related to the question of perception being discussed on Searching for God thread currently, I read the story below thinking that anyone who gets something from the story of Fatima that is of great importance, is perceiving the world is a way I have no understanding of.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39885741
To people of faith, Fatima and other more modern sightings such as Medjugorje are warnings given to local communities that humanity is going in the wrong direction and we all need to turn back to God in prayer to save our souls.
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To people of faith, Fatima and other more modern sightings such as Medjugorje are warnings given to local communities that humanity is going in the wrong direction and we all need to turn back to God in prayer to save our souls.
of course, that isn't actually true, is it, Alan? You mean people of your faith. There are millions of 'people of faith' that disagree with you about that but you seem forced due to possibly your perception to misrepresent facts.
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To people of faith, Fatima and other more modern sightings such as Medjugorje are warnings given to local communities that humanity is going in the wrong direction and we all need to turn back to God in prayer to save our souls.
So people whose reason isn't influenced by religious faith don't get warned? Moreover, isn't it odd that these 'warnings' seem ring-fenced to include specific Christians: in this case those who buy into the RC tradition, where there are many Christians of other stripes and of course non-Christian theists. Seems then 'God's' warning is aimed at a selective minority.
Perhaps, as I noted earlier, you're falling for fallacious arguments from authority, tradition and personal incredulity since presumably 'God' could arrange for warnings that aren't dependent on being an RC who subscribes to this type of ritual. Tell me, do you also accept the so-called 'Miracle of the Sun' that allegedly happened here a few months later in 1917?
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Strange that many of the 'marian' appearances show a flawless, white skinned girl - in some cases with blond hair - wearing spotless white and blue robes - when the real Mary was at best an olive skinned teenager of modest means when she gave birth to Christ Jesus, her first - but not only - child.
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Strange that many of the 'marian' appearances show a flawless, white skinned girl - in some cases with blond hair - wearing spotless white and blue robes - when the real Mary was at best an olive skinned teenager of modest means when she gave birth to Christ Jesus, her first - but not only - child.
Come now, Anchorman, you must know that on her assumption body and soul into heaven (I used to look out for her when I went to Heaven nightclub in the 80s) she went through the Holy Spa and Skin Wash
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You also think that an all omnipotent being might communicate in a slightly more sensible format than a bad 80s video. Maybe Mary was at Heaven after all.
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Probably screaming insults at the cheurivic images we've made of her! As a Christian, yes, she was special - singled out for a unique, unrepeatable role, and her actions are honoured to this day. But like millions of other Christians, she is dead, and beyond our reach. As for 'queen of heaven'? Nope. There is a King - One king - and no vacancies. We can kick titles and heirarchies into oblivion when we arrivwe. God has no grandchildren.
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I don't know very much about Fatima (did work with someone who was a Medjugoreje devotee) & have never had a 'religious experience', wouldn't want one, i'd think I was more batty than ever. I might have felt that way when young, don't know, never did.
However it seems to me that many people do want that and enjoy it, also being together with others all experiencing the same. Toronto blessing and other charismania is similar. They get something out of it.
The Bible says somewhere (my words) that we should not look for signs and wonders to support our faith & that is my belief.
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I don't know very much about Fatima (did work with someone who was a Medjugoreje devotee) & have never had a 'religious experience', wouldn't want one, i'd think I was more batty than ever. I might have felt that way when young, don't know, never did.
However it seems to me that many people do want that and enjoy it, also being together with others all experiencing the same. Toronto blessing and other charismania is similar. They get something out of it.
The Bible says somewhere (my words) that we should not look for signs and wonders to support our faith & that is my belief.
If AB or the Catholic Church was saying isn't it nice to be happy clappy together, then I would nod, and say if that's what gets you by, off you go and do what you want. That isn't the case.
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Strange that many of the 'marian' appearances show a flawless, white skinned girl - in some cases with blond hair - wearing spotless white and blue robes - when the real Mary was at best an olive skinned teenager of modest means when she gave birth to Christ Jesus, her first - but not only - child.
Just like that image I had for a few seconds. When, as you point out, Mary would have been of Middle Eastern appearance, just like her son would have been too, and not the blonde hair, blue eyed Caucasian guy of portraits.
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Yes undoubtedly there's a lot more to it NS. All seems dodgy to me.
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So two of the children died in the 1918 flu epidemic; ah well, they got to heaven faster that way, while the third had to endure in this vale of tears for another 80 years, poor thing.
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"Secret messages, apocalyptic countdowns, cloak-and-dagger intrigue within the highest echelons of the Vatican: not even Hollywood could ask for better material than this"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_Fátima
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It's crying out for Dan Brown.
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It's crying out for Dan Brown.
The RC church are masters at this sort of stuff
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_coronation
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To me, not having grown up with this sort of ritualised stuff, this adornment of statues via papal authority seems a lot like when my daughters dressed up Barbi dolls - it has a simplistic and child-like dimension to it.
Perhaps it works by focusing attention on the ritual and the objects involved, and the authority and tradition underpinning all this, so as to not spend time thinking about whether all these stories of divine revelations and secret messages make any real sense.
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The RC church are masters at this sort of stuff
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_coronation
I remember being in France a few years ago, and we had a craze for looking for black madonnas, and it was fun chasing them up, and some of them were quite redolent images, not particularly of Christian ideas, but primitive mana.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocamadour
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To me, not having grown up with this sort of ritualised stuff, this adornment of statues via papal authority seems a lot like when my daughters dressed up Barbi dolls - it has a simplistic and child-like dimension to it.
Perhaps it works by focusing attention on the ritual and the objects involved, and the authority and tradition underpinning all this, so as to not spend time thinking about whether all these stories of divine revelations and secret messages make any real sense.
On the subject of dressing up, then there is the Child of Prague statue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_Jesus_of_Prague
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The RC church are masters at this sort of stuff
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_coronation
Pity it has no connection with Scripture or, for that matter, the fundamental doctrines of the Christian Faith.
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Jesus didn't appear to put his mother on a pedestal in the way the Catholic Church does. In fact he seemed rather dismissive of her and his family.
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From an outsiders perspective, since I was never exposed to religious dogma,
How would you deflect a charge of being brainwashed into atheism from an early age?
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How would you deflect a charge of being brainwashed into atheism from an early age?
You charge people with being brainwashed? What very odd phrasing!
And combined with a very odd idea that not being told something is true is brainwashing. I was therefore brainwashed into not having an opinion on Stravinsky at an early age.
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How would you deflect a charge of being brainwashed into atheism from an early age?
By simply pointing out that I grew up in a family for whom religion was an irrelevance: it wasn't a factor in any sense whatsoever, for example I wasn't christened (which was unusual in the 1950's), and since religion wasn't a factor in any sense then neither was atheism: religion was something that happened to other people.
I wasn't introduced to tennis as a child either.
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By simply pointing out that I grew up in a family for whom religion was an irrelevance: it wasn't a factor in any sense whatsoever, for example I wasn't christened (which was unusual in the 1950's), and since religion wasn't a factor in any sense then neither was atheism: religion was something that happened to other people.
I wasn't introduced to tennis as a child either.
You are now admitting you should be charged with being brainwashed into atennisism!
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By simply pointing out that I grew up in a family for whom religion was an irrelevance: it wasn't a factor in any sense whatsoever, for example I wasn't christened (which was unusual in the 1950's),
So would you say that being special contributed toward your atheism?
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You are now admitting you should be charged with being brainwashed into atennisism!
Guilty as charged - brainwashed by lack of interest.
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So would you say that being special contributed toward your atheism?
Can you just not stop yourself from mistepresemting what people write? Is it some form of compulsion?
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Can you just not stop yourself from mistepresemting what people write? Is it some form of compulsion?
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of Gordon's atheism...or are you suggesting that only theists should be examined or indeed accused of having been brainwashed into it?
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So would you say that being special contributed toward your atheism?
What on earth is 'special' about religion not being part of family life - I didn't claim it was special?
My atheism isn't a consequence of my childhood but is solely due to concluding, in later life, that the case made for theism (e.g. the various approaches and arguments offered by theists in support of their beliefs) is either incoherent or fallacious.
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I'm just trying to get to the bottom of Gordon's atheism...or are you suggesting that only theists should be examined or indeed accused of having been brainwashed into it?
Must be a compulsion, since off you go again.
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Was just reading the latest BBC update on events in Fatima this weekend and wondering how some people take this kind of theatre seriously - beats me!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39904846
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Vlad,
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of Gordon's atheism...or are you suggesting that only theists should be examined or indeed accused of having been brainwashed into it?
But why given that you've been told already how to work out the answer for yourself?
Can you really have forgotten already?
Oh well. Here it is again then:
Step 1: Write down why you're an a-leprechaunist
Step 2: Delete "leprechaun" and insert "god"
Step3: Try to remember that liking one outcome more than another does not turn a bad argument into a good one (you may have to write that one down on a Post-it note as an aide memoire)
Step 4: Have a nice cup of tea and a ginger biscuit to celebrate finally getting it
You're welcome.
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of course, that isn't actually true, is it, Alan? You mean people of your faith. There are millions of 'people of faith' that disagree with you about that but you seem forced due to possibly your perception to misrepresent facts.
I always felt that the messages given in these apparitions were applicable to the whole of humanity - not just the Roman Catholic church.
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AB,
I always felt that the messages given in these apparitions were applicable to the whole of humanity - not just the Roman Catholic church.
Now of course all you have to do is to demonstrate that there actually were “apparitions” and “messages” rather than one or more of the various alternative but doubtless less thrilling real world explanations for these stories catching the wind.
Good luck with it!
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I always felt that the messages given in these apparitions were applicable to the whole of humanity - not just the Roman Catholic church.
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Hower you must concede that many millions of Christians reject Marian doctrines absolutely, and, therefore, the visions allegedly given in these places.
Were the woman to appear to a non-Christian, an atheist, or a group of Sikhs, there might be a reconsideration.
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I always felt that the messages given in these apparitions were applicable to the whole of humanity - not just the Roman Catholic church.
In which post the bot uses a difference but is badly programmed and misses the issue.
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I always felt that the messages given in these apparitions were applicable to the whole of humanity - not just the Roman Catholic church.
The 'messages' received by the RCC over the centuries haven't done much for it, as it has caused so much grief to so many people. >:(
This for instance.
http://freethinker.co.uk/2017/03/03/gruesome-find-at-catholic-home-for-unmarried-mothers/
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That is grim but don't see what it has to do with apparitions.
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That is grim but don't see what it has to do with apparitions.
I was replying to AB's post! ::)
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I get that but the link to the unmarried mothers' home scandal has nothing to do with apparitions.
How-ever - we move on.
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Noted the trouble with using the right word, lots of references to brainwashing again where indoctrination is meant.
It's easy to separate the two words brainwashing involves some elaborate forms of torture.
ippy
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I get that but the link to the unmarried mothers' home scandal has nothing to do with apparitions.
How-ever - we move on.
I always felt that the messages given in these apparitions were applicable to the whole of humanity - not just the Roman Catholic church.
I was saying the messages haven't done the RCC any good!
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No argument from me with that.
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Meanwhile in Russia ....... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40062807
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Meanwhile in Russia ....... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40062807
Faith is an extraordinary thing. It puts us in touch with the subtle forces that work from within us.
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Faith is an extraordinary thing. It puts us in touch with the subtle forces that work from within us.
Faith is indeed and extraordinary thing, it can lead people right up the garden path and defy all logic!
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Faith is indeed and extraordinary thing, it can lead people right up the garden path and defy all logic!
Logic is neither here nor there. We humans try to understand things based on logic. But the world does not function on logic.
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Faith is an extraordinary thing. It puts us in touch with the subtle forces that work from within us.
How come none of you are able to give a rational description of how these 'subtle forces' work and none of those that relate to these 'subtle forces' seem able to tell how they managed to acquired the knowledge they claim to have about these 'subtle forces'? An email, a phone call or perhaps a special messinger delivery?
ippy
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How come none of you are able to give a rational description of how these 'subtle forces' work and none of those that relate to these 'subtle forces' seem able to tell how they managed to acquired the knowledge they claim to have about these 'subtle forces'? An email, a phone call or perhaps a special messinger delivery?
ippy
Maybe because it goes beyond rationality!
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Logic is neither here nor there. We humans try to understand things based on logic. But the world does not function on logic.
I think 'the world' does function on logic, but humans did not evolve to be coldly logical. Our behaviours, motivated through the limbic system, driven by emotion rather than logic, are aimed at satisfying our desires rather than revealing truth, indeed it seems we often prefer to nurture our own alternate facts. Learning to be logical is a slow development process; logic brings no instant gratification.
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Hmmmmmmmmmm! The brain can create all sorts of images as I know for a fact. As I have said boringly often, for a second or two I saw what looked like the picture book version of Mary on May17th 1997. This was in a field we owned at our previous property. I saw it after an Irish couple had claimed to see it too, and been cured of their ailments. I now firmly believe I saw what I wanted to see, just as others, claimed to have seen her in our field!
I suppose like all good deceptions the truth can make things clearer.
Mary has no standing of importance in that she is NOT the mother of God for God is not born nor created.
God is the only eternal immortal.King James Bible
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
There is one God and he does not share that GLORY of his with anyone. Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord; that is My name. And My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.
Christ said: "My words were Spirit and they are life."
We can see the different ways men have let untruths creep in and take over.
But Christ is the Son of God and Mary is a human being and only the Roman Catholic Church made her into something she is not. Spirit and Truth are required of true believers.
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Both Jesus and Mary were humans, no god involved, imo.
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Maybe because it goes beyond rationality!
Or maybe it is just different to rationality, and at times tends to ignore or contradict rationality. :)
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Or maybe it is just different to rationality, and at times tends to ignore or contradict rationality. :)
Maybe some of it contradicts rationality.
Rationality is just one human attribute. The universe does not have to fit into it.
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Maybe because it goes beyond rationality!
Thank you Sriram.
ippy
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I suppose like all good deceptions the truth can make things clearer.
Mary has no standing of importance in that she is NOT the mother of God for God is not born nor created.
God is the only eternal immortal.King James Bible
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
There is one God and he does not share that GLORY of his with anyone. Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord; that is My name. And My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.
Christ said: "My words were Spirit and they are life."
We can see the different ways men have let untruths creep in and take over.
But Christ is the Son of God and Mary is a human being and only the Roman Catholic Church made her into something she is not. Spirit and Truth are required of true believers.
Sass you reminded me of when I was a child; I can remember saying my dad's three times stronger than anything you say your dad is, so there.
Can you see the parallels?
It's all man made Sass.
ippy
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Meanwhile in Russia ....... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40062807
Maybe Putin is not such an ogre that he is made out to be, after all! For a ex-KGB chief he seems pretty sensitive!!
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Sass you reminded me of when I was a child; I can remember saying my dad's three times stronger than anything you say your dad is, so there.
Can you see the parallels?
It's all man made Sass.
ippy
I agree...all scriptures and religious texts are man made. But they are like scientific models that we humans create to understand the world.
The models are not real in themselves but in some sense (often vaguely) they represent reality. Our scriptures and deities are the same.
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I agree...all scriptures and religious texts are man made. But they are like scientific models that we humans create to understand the world.
The models are not real in themselves but in some sense (often vaguely) represent reality. Our scriptures and deities are the same.
I'd go along with that but would add that scientific models represent a step change towards objective understanding whereas religious beliefs persist because of their subjective value to individuals. There is no human-centric gratification in scientific theories.
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I'd go along with that but would add that scientific models represent a step change towards objective understanding whereas religious beliefs persist because of their subjective value to individuals. There is no human-centric gratification in scientific theories.
Objective understanding is of little significance in living our lives. A bird flies with no objective 'understanding' of flight what so ever.
We happen to have developed certain abilities of objective understanding because of which the 'need to understand' keeps projecting itself. It can be useful sometimes, but that does not mean that, if we cannot understand something objectively it is of no significance.
In fact, trying to understand something objectively can often have a regressive effect on our subjective experiences. It can even be a barrier.
Instead of dismissing subjective aspects as imaginary and unimportant, the right way is to integrate both the subjective and objective aspects of ourselves. That is what Yoga does......unite the two seemingly separate aspects of ourselves.
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Sass you reminded me of when I was a child; I can remember saying my dad's three times stronger than anything you say your dad is, so there.
Can you see the parallels?
It's all man made Sass.
ippy
Not really, Ippy.
Man is Gods creation not vice versa.
Jesus Father would be stronger than yours or mine. :)
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Maybe Putin is not such an ogre that he is made out to be, after all! For a ex-KGB chief he seems pretty sensitive!!
I'm a bit more sceptical. Russia plays politics like a chess game. Bishops can be valuable assets and can also be sacrificed in the cause of winning.
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Maybe some of it contradicts rationality.
Rationality is just one human attribute. The universe does not have to fit into it.
Sorry for not replying before, but I was unable to log on to this site for several hours, an irritation which applies on a near daily basis, by the way.
No problem with your first sentence. We seem to be in agreement.
We seem to be in agreement also on your second sentence. It seems that human beings are driven, sometimes irrationally, by their emotions, instincts and their personal experiences at least as much as by a considered rational approach.
On the subject of your third sentence, that the universe does not have to fit into rationality, I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that in some way the universe is not rational, I find that is an extremely vague conjecture and somewhat devoid of meaning as I find it difficult to apply rationality to such a thing as a universe. However our explanations regarding how the universe functions rely heavily on a rational approach rather than a faith approach and this approach has been overwhelmingly justified by events, predictions and evidence to give the most consistent successful description of our universe within the limits of our knowledge thus far.
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Not really, Ippy.
Man is Gods creation not vice versa.
Jesus Father would be stronger than yours or mine. :)
And the evidence?
ippy
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Sorry for not replying before, but I was unable to log on to this site for several hours, an irritation which applies on a near daily basis, by the way.
No problem with your first sentence. We seem to be in agreement.
We seem to be in agreement also on your second sentence. It seems that human beings are driven, sometimes irrationally, by their emotions, instincts and their personal experiences at least as much as by a considered rational approach.
On the subject of your third sentence, that the universe does not have to fit into rationality, I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that in some way the universe is not rational, I find that is an extremely vague conjecture and somewhat devoid of meaning as I find it difficult to apply rationality to such a thing as a universe. However our explanations regarding how the universe functions rely heavily on a rational approach rather than a faith approach and this approach has been overwhelmingly justified by events, predictions and evidence to give the most consistent successful description of our universe within the limits of our knowledge thus far.
enki,
The Universe is one thing and our perception of it is another thing. We should not confuse the two.
We have evolved the faculty of rationality for our own survival. It is a product of our brain structure, neural connections, DNA and our cultural environment. It has nothing to do with the way the Universe is structured, the stars and galaxies, elementary particles and so on.
We live on a tiny little planet somewhere and perceive the world through our rational mind and think it functions in a certain way. It is our perception. We should not imagine that the Universe would necessarily be limited to our perception of it.
That is what I meant by saying that the world need not fit into our rational ideas.
We are basically emotional beings... we feel and experience life. Rational understanding of the world is of no relevance to any living being. All life is experiential from birth to procreation to death. Animals and birds have lived for millions of years with no rational understanding of their lives. We can too.
We humans just happen to have this rational faculty. So, to imagine that the Universe will somehow fit in completely into our rationality is to limit the Universe.
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enki,
The Universe is one thing and our perception of it is another thing. We should not confuse the two.
Which of course, I don't. That is why I suggested that the idea of rationality being applied to the universe is a somewhat meaningless concept.
We have evolved the faculty of rationality for our own survival. It is a product of our brain structure, neural connections, DNA and our cultural environment. It has nothing to do with the way the Universe is structured, the stars and galaxies, elementary particles and so on.
We have evolved many qualities in order to survive, Sriram, rationality being only one of them. However it is a very useful tool in our armoury for helping to describe and explain how the universe functions. I would submit that the New Caledonian crow, for instance, shows a degree of rationality in solving physical problems appertaining to how things work. In this way it has evolved to better survive. We are much, much further down this road, and are far more able to manipulate and understand how the universe works, giving us, amongst other qualities, the potential of more successful survival mechanisms.
We live on a tiny little planet somewhere and perceive the world through our rational mind and think it functions in a certain way. It is our perception. We should not imagine that the Universe would necessarily be limited to our perception of it.
Of course the universe is not necessarily limited to our perception of it, there is so much more we do not know or understand. However our understanding is steadily progressing, not least because of our ability to rationalise.
That is what I meant by saying that the world need not fit into our rational ideas.
No problem, except that our rational ideas, when compared with faith ideas, have had much more success in descibing and explaining the universe as is.
We are basically emotional beings... we feel and experience life. Rational understanding of the world is of no relevance to any living being. All life is experiential from birth to procreation to death. Animals and birds have lived for millions of years with no rational understanding of their lives. We can too.
We humans just happen to have this rational faculty. So, to imagine that the Universe will somehow fit in completely into our rationality is to limit the Universe.
I have already alluded to this, by saying that emotions, instincts and personal experience tend to fashion our ideas.These are significant qualities which enable us to survive. However our rational qualities (which, for instance, enables us to weigh evidence, think logically, and be aware that our own experience or emotions can be of limited value) allied to our natural curiosity, has a much better chance of understanding the universe and expanding our knowledge of it. Far from being a limiting factor, it has a much greater potential for revealing the universe in which we live.
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Which of course, I don't. That is why I suggested that the idea of rationality being applied to the universe is a somewhat meaningless concept.
We have evolved many qualities in order to survive, Sriram, rationality being only one of them. However it is a very useful tool in our armoury for helping to describe and explain how the universe functions. I would submit that the New Caledonian crow, for instance, shows a degree of rationality in solving physical problems appertaining to how things work. In this way it has evolved to better survive. We are much, much further down this road, and are far more able to manipulate and understand how the universe works, giving us, amongst other qualities, the potential of more successful survival mechanisms.
Of course the universe is not necessarily limited to our perception of it, there is so much more we do not know or understand. However our understanding is steadily progressing, not least because of our ability to rationalise.
No problem, except that our rational ideas, when compared with faith ideas, have had much more success in descibing and explaining the universe as is.
I have already alluded to this, by saying that emotions, instincts and personal experience tend to fashion our ideas.These are significant qualities which enable us to survive. However our rational qualities (which, for instance, enables us to weigh evidence, think logically, and be aware that our own experience or emotions can be of limited value) allied to our natural curiosity, has a much better chance of understanding the universe and expanding our knowledge of it. Far from being a limiting factor, it has a much greater potential for revealing the universe in which we live.
enki,
I think you underestimate the role and power of Faith.
Most people can live without understanding atoms, DNA, cosmos, evolution and everything else. They can also live without most of the conveniences we have today. But they cannot live without Faith.
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enki,
I think you underestimate the role and power of Faith.
Most people can live without understanding atoms, DNA, cosmos, evolution and everything else. They can also live without most of the conveniences we have today. But they cannot live without Faith.
What do you mean by faith?
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Sriram,
But they cannot live without Faith.
What is this "Faith" that you think I cannot live without?
I don't incidentally underestimate the power of dogmatic faith either - the wars, misery and suffering it's caused testify to that, presumably because (unlike other kinds of guessing) people will die and kill for it.
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But they cannot live without Faith.
Why do you mean by 'faith'?
If you mean something akin to religious faith then I seem to be surviving quite well despite having none!
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I think we have discussed this before.
Faith is born of the fact that we humans are never really satisfied or even comfortable with mundane existence. We enjoy life to a large extent but always have this faint suspicion that there is something more to life. The temporal nature of our lives is often difficult to integrate into our lives.
Most people suspect that there is some purpose, meaning and guiding force that directs our lives. This gives rise to a simple 'there is something behind all this' feeling.
It is not just about incredulity or wonder. It is about sensing a pattern to life and about unseen forces that direct our life.
Based on these suspicions, some people go deeper into their mental states and identify those parts of the mind and consciousness that work from behind the scenes. Such people are the mystics.
These mystics have confirmed understanding of such subtle inner and powerful forces, but even they cannot actually pin it down in any objective sense. It therefore remains Faith to a large degree even for them.
Some people do try to pin down such forces and even harness and use these powerful forces to their advantage. These are the tantriks or black magic people. But it never works and is always dysfunctional and regressive.
Some of the mystics in turn teach such matters to younger generations and their word is taken on faith. They then become the prophets and spiritual leaders. Religious systems get created to help people integrate their daily lives in line with such forces.
So...Faith is of two kinds. One that is born of direct knowledge of subtle forces and another that is based on teachings of others (but which the normal people can also discern to an extent).
We today know that the Unconscious mind is behind many decisions that we believe we take consciously. This itself could be one factor contributing to such faith.
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Faith is born of the fact that we humans are never really satisfied or even comfortable with mundane existence. We enjoy life to a large extent but always have this faint suspicion that there is something more to life. The temporal nature of our lives is often difficult to integrate into our lives.
Most people suspect that there is some purpose, meaning and guiding force that directs our lives. This gives rise to a simple 'there is something behind all this' feeling.
It is not just about incredulity or wonder. It is about sensing a pattern to life and about unseen forces that direct our life....
That could equally well describe 'superstition', an irrational belief in hidden forces at work; and it could equally well describe 'agent detection', an evolved cognitive bias leading us to suspect hidden agency when there is none. 'Faith' then becomes the elevation and indulgence of our biases in preference to attempting to eliminate bias in order to be able to think clearly.
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It would appear then, Sriram, that not only do I live without faith but I am very glad that I live without it.
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Whilst some people need to have a faith to give them something which appears to be above and beyond themselves, whilst others are quite content to live in the here and now without it.
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Meanwhile in Russia ....... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40062807
Thank you for showing this very poignant article.
Many people dismiss the apparitions of the virgin Mary as meaningless, but one of the common calls from these apparitions was to pray for the conversion of Russia. In my childhood and early adult life I was aware of several rosary groups who would meet up regularly in answer to these apparitions and dedicate their rosary for this cause. In the days of Khrushchev one could never have imagined that within my lifetime, Leningrad would be renamed back to St Petersburg, the queues to venerate Lenin's tomb would be replaced by queues to venerate the relic of a Christian saint, and the president of Russia himself would be there, making the sign of the cross in front of the saint's relic.
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Thank you for showing this very poignant article.
Many people dismiss the apparitions of the virgin Mary as meaningless, but one of the common calls from these apparitions was to pray for the conversion of Russia. In my childhood and early adult life I was aware of several rosary groups who would meet up regularly in answer to these apparitions and dedicate their rosary for this cause. In the days of Khrushchev one could never have imagined that within my lifetime, Leningrad would be renamed back to St Petersburg, the queues to venerate Lenin's tomb would be replaced by queues to venerate the relic of a Christian saint, and the president of Russia himself would be there, making the sign of the cross in front of the saint's relic.
You venerate a murderer
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Thank you for showing this very poignant article.
Many people dismiss the apparitions of the virgin Mary as meaningless, but one of the common calls from these apparitions was to pray for the conversion of Russia. In my childhood and early adult life I was aware of several rosary groups who would meet up regularly in answer to these apparitions and dedicate their rosary for this cause. In the days of Khrushchev one could never have imagined that within my lifetime, Leningrad would be renamed back to St Petersburg, the queues to venerate Lenin's tomb would be replaced by queues to venerate the relic of a Christian saint, and the president of Russia himself would be there, making the sign of the cross in front of the saint's relic.
And what good has any of that silly nonsense done for Russia, none whatsoever!
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And what good has any of that silly nonsense done for Russia, none whatsoever!
I would say that many souls have been saved for those who returned to their faith.
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I would say that many souls have been saved for those who returned to their faith.
And anyone murdered by Putin you dance in their grave.
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Thank you for showing this very poignant article.
Many people dismiss the apparitions of the virgin Mary as meaningless, but one of the common calls from these apparitions was to pray for the conversion of Russia. In my childhood and early adult life I was aware of several rosary groups who would meet up regularly in answer to these apparitions and dedicate their rosary for this cause. In the days of Khrushchev one could never have imagined that within my lifetime, Leningrad would be renamed back to St Petersburg, the queues to venerate Lenin's tomb would be replaced by queues to venerate the relic of a Christian saint, and the president of Russia himself would be there, making the sign of the cross in front of the saint's relic.
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Equally, many people will dismiss Marianism and the Rosery as anti-Scriptural, and deplore the association of the Russian Church with the inhuman policies of Putin, who claims to be a Christian, but apart from lip service, shows himself to be the opposite.
Strange answer to 'prayer'. that.
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That could equally well describe 'superstition', an irrational belief in hidden forces at work; and it could equally well describe 'agent detection', an evolved cognitive bias leading us to suspect hidden agency when there is none. 'Faith' then becomes the elevation and indulgence of our biases in preference to attempting to eliminate bias in order to be able to think clearly.
torridon,
Scientists have sufficiently established that the Unconscious mind functions in mysterious ways and influences our lives every day....though we are completely unaware of it. Many scientists and psychologists have commented on how huge and powerful the unconscious part of our mind is...and yet remains largely unknown. Like a iceberg with most of it hidden below the surface.
This simple fact is itself sufficient for us to realize why people believe that there are unseen forces working within our selves that direct our destiny. There could be many more such subtle issues that we still have no knowledge of.
So, it is a perfectly valid impression. I don't know why you keep calling it irrational? It is actually there!
A majority of the people have an ability to detect or discern such hidden forces and patterns. Some people may not be able to. Fine! But that is no reason why the minority should dismiss the majority as irrational or biased.
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torridon,
Scientists have sufficiently established that the Unconscious mind functions in mysterious ways and influences our lives every day....though we are completely unaware of it. Many scientists and psychologists have commented on how huge and powerful the unconscious part of our mind is...and yet remains largely unknown. Like a iceberg with most of it hidden below the surface.
This simple fact is itself sufficient for us to realize why people believe that there are unseen forces working within our selves that direct our destiny. There could be many more such subtle issues that we still have no knowledge of.
So, it is a perfectly valid impression. I don't know why you keep calling it irrational? It is actually there!
A majority of the people have an ability to detect or discern such hidden forces and patterns. Some people may not be able to. Fine! But that is no reason why the minority should dismiss the majority as irrational or biased.
Maybe 'irrational' is valid where people are believing in unseen external forces for which there is no objective evidence acting. Unseen forces within us would be different, after all, we have some insight into unconscious mind as the contents do emerge into consciousness from time to time. Conscious workspace is like a small precious resource that can accommodate only what is currently important, but that is not to say that other aspects of our deeper selves do not get an airing as and when; although some things get repressed and never get to see the light of day, as Freud showed.
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Maybe 'irrational' is valid where people are believing in unseen external forces for which there is no objective evidence acting. Unseen forces within us would be different, after all, we have some insight into unconscious mind as the contents do emerge into consciousness from time to time. Conscious workspace is like a small precious resource that can accommodate only what is currently important, but that is not to say that other aspects of our deeper selves do not get an airing as and when; although some things get repressed and never get to see the light of day, as Freud showed.
You still think that the Unconscious mind is just a storehouse of repressed memories?!!! :D Well....!
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I would say that many souls have been saved for those who returned to their faith.
More bonkers beliefs from the baffling Burns.
Even if such things as 'souls' do exist despite the lack of any evidence and any rationale and even if said souls needing saving from some undefined thing and even if there were a god despite the lack of any evidence and any rationale that could do this saving then this god would save all the souls that needed rescuing not just those that had happened upon some means to somehow believe in souls that lacked of any evidence and any rationale that could be saved from something undefined by a god that lacked any evidence or rationale leaving all others out in the cold.
It must take years of practice to get into such a monstrous muddle.
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And the evidence?
ippy
Gods still around my dad isn't is yours?
Eventually ours will be forgotten but God never will...
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You still think that the Unconscious mind is just a storehouse of repressed memories?!!! :D Well....!
There's no 'just' about it. Some people might have repressed memories, nothing controversial in that. Unconscious mind is all mind that is not currently conscious. Think of consciousness as a system of prioritisation, of giving heightened attention to issues that matter right now. If there is a lion creeping up on you you really need to pay undivided attention to that, but we don't need to pay full attention to constant background noises like the ticking of a clock. In the middle of your biology exam you might need to have knowledge about cell membranes in conscious mind, but there is no point in filling that precious and limited space with remembered knowledge of childhood holidays. There's nothing spooky about unconscious mind, it is a process of prioritisation.
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Gods still around my dad isn't is yours?
Eventually ours will be forgotten but God never will...
In your opinion!
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More bonkers beliefs from the baffling Burns.
Even if such things as 'souls' do exist despite the lack of any evidence and any rationale and even if said souls needing saving from some undefined thing and even if there were a god despite the lack of any evidence and any rationale that could do this saving then this god would save all the souls that needed rescuing not just those that had happened upon some means to somehow believe in souls that lacked of any evidence and any rationale that could be saved from something undefined by a god that lacked any evidence or rationale leaving all others out in the cold.
It must take years of practice to get into such a monstrous muddle.
It is all explained in the Christian Bible.
And congratulations on composing the longest sentence I have come across on this forum (and not one comma!). ;)
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It is all explained in the Christian Bible.
And congratulations on composing the longest sentence I have come across on this forum (and not one comma!). ;)
And congratulations on composing the baldest evasion I have come across on this forum (and not one scintilla of a hint of any real justification)
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It is all explained in the Christian Bible.
No it isn't.
A great deal is baldly asserted in the "Christian Bible" (what's that? Is that the Old Testament plus the New Testament, or just the New Testament, or does it include the Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal books with both or either, or what? Because I have some pertinent questions relating to those answers); explanation is a very different thing altogether.
Assertion of opinion isn't explanation; but I fear it's a bit late in the day for you to comprehend that, along with a very great deal else.
Feel free to blithely ignore these direct questions posed to you personally; I mean, that's your usual procedure, isn't it? Look how long it's taking you to answer a repeated but sublimely simple question from bluehillside, for example. So it goes: slimily dishonest to the last.
Meh: I expect no better.
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Gods still around my dad isn't is yours?
Eventually ours will be forgotten but God never will...
Again Sass, how do you know this god idea, granted it does exist inside your head, really exist? You seem unable to come up with anything of merit.
Up to now you haven't managed to come up with anything that would or could substantiate/attribute any reality into this wishful thinking god idea of yours.
I'm sure you mean well but can't you see it's a bit of a rubbish not very useful idea Sass?
ippy
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I was watching a drama the other night where one of the characters was collecting money to send a person to Lourdes for healing. Would anyone on this forum donate money that purpose? I think it much better to give money towards medical research, far more effective, imo.
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I was watching drama the other night where one of the characters was collecting money to send a person to Lourdes for healing. Would anyone on this forum donate money that purpose?
I might contribute to send you to be cured of your acute curmudgeonitis!
;)
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I was watching a drama the other night where one of the characters was collecting money to send a person to Lourdes for healing. Would anyone on this forum donate money that purpose? I think it much better to give money towards medical research, far more effective, imo.
I'm not saying that I would willingly donate money specifically to send a person to Lourdes for a cure - but I could (just) imagine donating money for someone - possibly terminally ill - who wishes to visit Lourdes. They would, after all, benefit from a peaceful holiday in a beautiful area in the French Pyrenees.
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I agree with HH. If it would help to bring peace to someone who was dying, why not?
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I'm not saying that I would willingly donate money specifically to send a person to Lourdes for a cure - but I could (just) imagine donating money for someone - possibly terminally ill - who wishes to visit Lourdes. They would, after all, benefit from a peaceful holiday in a beautiful area in the French Pyrenees.
Yes it depends how it's put.
We are all terminal in a way, it's just a matter of when, so I think fulfilling your dreams matters anyway, more so if you don't have much time.
If their faith makes them want to see it as a sort of bucket list pilgrimage, why not?
I would if I knew the person concerned and they wanted to see it.
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So would I.
No-one's ever asked me to contribute to a Lourdes pilgrimage though, nor likely to.
I know two doctors who accompanied sick children to Lourdes, one is a Catholic and has done it a few times & the other one isn't a Catholic. They both enjoyed it and said the kids loved it!