Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Muslim Topic => Topic started by: Sriram on May 28, 2017, 10:12:09 AM
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Hi everyone,
Here is a guide for non muslims on Ramadan etiquette.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/04/us/ramadan-non-muslims-etiquette-guide/index.html
Cheers.
Sriram
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Thanks for that. Wecould all do with a little etiquette-awareness when it comes to working with people of different religions &/or cultures. Awareness and sensitivity costs nothing.
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Thanks for that. Wecould all do with a little etiquette-awareness when it comes to working with people of different religions &/or cultures. Awareness and sensitivity costs nothing.
Yes...if it is practiced by everyone.
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I am not interested in reading a link about humoring Muslims. Especially in the light of the fact ISIS is calling on their followers to attack us during Ramadhan. I think it is better for everyone if we tell Muslims what we really think. If Islam is the fastest growing religion we are all in big trouble, because the God the Quran describes is a terrible monster, and anyone who would worship such a God is at least insensitive, and at worst barbaric.
I have spent the last ten years since after 9/11 pointing out flaws in the Quran in the hope of stopping some gullible people converting to Islam. The latest attack in Manchester only shows that we need to undermine Islamic extremism at all costs and we can only do that by undermining Islam itself.
It has been completely obvious to me the Quran is not God's words since I first read it after the 9/11 attack. I have now read it three times and every time I saw more things wrong with it.
I started out hoping to convert Muslims to Christianity, but discovered that has been tried since the crusades without success.
So now I just try to show the flaws in the Quran prove it is not from God, and Muslims can think what they like.
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The Quran is not the only 'holy' book with flaws in it, the Bible has plenty as does its version of god!
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Posted by: Dajjal
Today at 04:43:11 PM -
I started out hoping to convert Muslims to Christianity
Rather arrogant, hardly conducive to interfaith dialogue - "My religion is better than yours", etc.
Read the Qu'ran again with help in interpretation from a scholarly Muslim.
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Posted by: Dajjal
Today at 04:43:11 PM -
I started out hoping to convert Muslims to Christianity
Rather arrogant, hardly conducive to interfaith dialogue - "My religion is better than yours", etc.
Read the Qu'ran again with help in interpretation from a scholarly Muslim.
Scholarly Muslims are a bunch of liars who twist the Quran, and fabricate meanings it does not have to try and justify it.
For example, they must know the Quran says the sun orbits the earth, but Imams make the false claim that it means the sun orbits the galaxy. Cat Stevens even said on his old Facebook page that it was incredible the Quran said the sun had an orbit as Muhammad could not have known it orbited the galaxy unless he got the information from God. But Quran 36.38 says the sun goes to a resting place, and there is a hadith which proves the Quran is saying the sun obits the earth goes to a resting place under the flat earth and is reset every dawn.
The Quran is utter bunk and I don't need a lying Imam to interpret it for me as I have a brain of my own.
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Posted by: Dajjal
Today at 04:43:11 PM -
I started out hoping to convert Muslims to Christianity
Rather arrogant, hardly conducive to interfaith dialogue - "My religion is better than yours", etc.
Read the Qu'ran again with help in interpretation from a scholarly Muslim.
I MUST ask if YOU'RE a Muslim or are looking to 'con'vert?
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Nice to see Muslim bashing is alive and well regardless of the OP intentions... or sectarian viewpoints...
Where is the thumbs up emoji?
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MMM Very useful comments ?!?!!? ;)
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Hmmm...
"Ramadan Mubarak" to you mate
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By the way - Three Lions to the Al-Masīḥ ad-Dajjāl, ("the false messiah"), the evil figure in Islamic eschatology..
Are you in the Muslim version of the LDS?
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Dajjal- The Quran is utter bunk and I don't need a lying Imam to interpret it for me as I have a brain of my own.
When we study the Bible we read all around it to understand historical and cultural context, use study guides and/or discuss with others in an attempt to interpret some quite difficult passages - and Christians come up with varied interpretations of some bits! So it would seem reasonable to discuss Islam with Muslims in order to understand better.
Trippymonkey - I MUST ask if YOU'RE a Muslim or are looking to 'con'vert?
Not today thank you.The only conversion I'm currently interested in is part of my house!
Going back to the o.p. it could be broadened; i already said to Siriam that I believe we should all be more sensitive to the religions and cultures of others & apart from anything else it's very interesting! We wouldn't post on a religion & ethics forum if we didn't find it so.
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Dajjal, returning again to what you said earlier - 'I started out hoping to convert Muslims to Christianity'
Does that mean you are a Christian Dajjal? I ask because I have never before come across a Christian who says things like:-
Scholarly Muslims are a bunch of liars who twist the Quran, and fabricate meanings it does not have to try and justify it. &
The Quran is utter bunk and I don't need a lying Imam to interpret it for me as I have a brain of my own.
Not come across a Christian who names himself after a one-eyed anti-Christ either!
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BAck to the point, sririam didn't post this thread to start a row about Islam, he was merely giving information.
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But the idea of Ramadan is itself bunk, can't see any good in pandering to people engaged in unhealthy behaviour likely to encouraging aggression under the pretence of peace for a holy month.
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You may think all religious observance is bunk, plenty do! Why single out Ramadan? A time of fasting(for those able to fast), prayer, reflection & almsgiving which unites Muslims all over the world. Similar to the Christian Lent though few adhere to traditional Lenten practices any more. It may not be my sorta thing but can't see anything wrong with it.
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Robinson, No I am not a Christian, but I have some respect for the teachings of Jesus. However I have none for the ramblings of Muhammad, who I consider was a lying bandit who tried (successfully) to scare people with fear of God. An idea he undoubtedly got from the bible. I just started out thinking that if Muslims converted to Christianity they would turn the other cheek, instead of blowing us up. But its been tried for century's without success. I think the bible is full of flaws too, and I think its largely Jewish myths. But the Quran is deliberate lies about God.
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Robinson, No I am not a Christian, but I have some respect for the teachings of Jesus. However I have none for the ramblings of Muhammad, who I consider was a lying bandit who tried (successfully) to scare people with fear of God. An idea he undoubtedly got from the bible. I just started out thinking that if Muslims converted to Christianity they would turn the other cheek, instead of blowing us up. But its been tried for century's without success. I think the bible is full of flaws too, and I think its largely Jewish myths. But the Quran is deliberate lies about God.
So what is the 'truth' about a god for which there is no evidence to support its existence?
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So what is the 'truth' about a god for which there is no evidence to support its existence?
I can't say what the truth is, but I am sure what the Quran says about God is lies. Unless God is a deranged, sadistic monster.
See surah 4.56 and 22.19 to 22.22 for a sample of the cruelty of Muhammad's God.
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I wonder if the compilers of the Quran understood summer sunrise / sunset times in the northern hemisphere.
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Moderator:
I've just removed a post (by Floo) which was specifically about Christianity. Could we please ensure that the emphasis in posts in this thread is primarily about Islam.
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Moderator:
I've just removed a post (by Floo) which was specifically about Christianity. Could we please ensure that the emphasis in posts in this thread is primarily about Islam.
Sorry! :-[
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You may think all religious observance is bunk, plenty do! Why single out Ramadan? A time of fasting(for those able to fast), prayer, reflection & almsgiving which unites Muslims all over the world. Similar to the Christian Lent though few adhere to traditional Lenten practices any more. It may not be my sorta thing but can't see anything wrong with it.
Muslims are perfectly free to celebrate (maybe endure?) Ramadan if they feel obliged to, however it should not entitle them to special consideration from non-Muslims as it is a form of self abuse.
This lists a number of possible adverse effects:
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Adverse_Effects_of_Islamic_Fasting
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Muslims are perfectly free to celebrate (maybe endure?) Ramadan if they feel obliged to, however it should not entitle them to special consideration from non-Muslims as it is a form of self abuse.
Agreed. I have noticed that I have not heard so much about this in the news in the past year or two. Do you know if demands for special consideration have increased or decreased?
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Muslims are perfectly free to celebrate (maybe endure?) Ramadan if they feel obliged to, however it should not entitle them to special consideration from non-Muslims as it is a form of self abuse.
This lists a number of possible adverse effects:
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Adverse_Effects_of_Islamic_Fasting
Even as a grizzled old atheist I'd say that, in my experience anyway, the fasting associated with Ramadan is a personal commitment that rarely intrudes into the lives of those not directly involved, and that to me it seems far less intrusive than the promotion of other religions in the public arena. As far as I'm aware only relatively fit people are required to voluntarily fast for this time-limited period, so I'm not sure the risks are any worse than the habitual excessive consumption of food.
If fact, I'm struggling to think of a single occasion when I've been even slightly inconvenienced by the observance of Ramadan by others - so I'm quite happy to respect the position of those who do adhere to the Ramadan ritual even though it makes no sense to me.
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One take on Wiki Islam
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/WikiIslam
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Even as a grizzled old atheist I'd say that, in my experience anyway, the fasting associated with Ramadan is a personal commitment that rarely intrudes into the lives of those not directly involved, and that to me it seems far less intrusive than the promotion of other religions in the public arena. As far as I'm aware only relatively fit people are required to voluntarily fast for this time-limited period, so I'm not sure the risks are any worse than the habitual excessive consumption of food.
If fact, I'm struggling to think of a single occasion when I've been even slightly inconvenienced by the observance of Ramadan by others - so I'm quite happy to respect the position of those who do adhere to the Ramadan ritual even though it makes no sense to me.
Depends how you view these things. To me it seems quite probable that up to 1.6B people together starving themselves, even not taking liquids, and (often) binge eating every day for a month each year has a profound negative effect, especially on mental health, even though I am not personally inconvenienced.
Along similar lines, I am not personally inconvenienced by people drinking or drugging themselves into a stupor or even death, but it is hardly something to be encouraged.
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Just reading again that article you posted sririam, it was light and true to life for this country.
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Depends how you view these things. To me it seems quite probable that up to 1.6B people together starving themselves, even not taking liquids, and (often) binge eating every day for a month each year has a profound negative effect, especially on mental health, even though I am not personally inconvenienced.
I don't think this is a sensible thing to do either but I'm not aware that Ramadan arrangements result in an upsurge of related health problems: happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
Along similar lines, I am not personally inconvenienced by people drinking or drugging themselves into a stupor or even death, but it is hardly something to be encouraged.
It could be argued though that these activities can, and do, place demands on the social services funded by the taxpayer and can also negatively impact on the individuals involved (and/or their significant others).
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Following on from the issue sensibly raised by JP, I was reminded that I had read something on it sometime ago, so here it is.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19199411
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Oooh very unpleasant. I follow the Egyptian scholars on this.
You'd have to be pretty damn devout to fast for so long in constant sunshine,I bet most don't.
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I gather you can donate money if you're too ill to self-torture.
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Hi everyone,
Here is a guide for non muslims on Ramadan etiquette.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/04/us/ramadan-non-muslims-etiquette-guide/index.html
Cheers.
Sriram
Other people fast, not just Muslims. What does annoy me is that in my working experience Muslims make a huge fuss of fasting, and want everybody to know that they are fasting, whilst others (Christians, Hindus, Sikhs etc) just get on with it.
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My experience has been quite opposite, strange isn't it.Not opposite about other faiths but about Muslims making a fuss. It was the same with parents of kids that mine were friendly with at school, it didn't come up unless there was a good reason. Just shows people are different, some noisier about personal things.
Went out with colleagues once,including Muslims, to middle Eastern restaurant quite late one night during Ramadan, not relevant but I just remembered it & Ramadan was briefly mentioned. The restaurant had several people there breaking their fast and knew how to cater for them. A good memory about eighteen years ago.
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Other people fast, not just Muslims. What does annoy me is that in my working experience Muslims make a huge fuss of fasting, and want everybody to know that they are fasting, whilst others (Christians, Hindus, Sikhs etc) just get on with it.
Yes....most orthodox Hindus skip one meal every week (normally on Thursdays) and full day fasting every eleventh day (Ekadasi) of the lunar cycle (about once in 15 days).
Also, fasting (Upavas) or eating only fruits (vrata) is common during festivals and religious ceremonies. These are a form of sacrifice and self discipline which brings out our inner divinity.
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Moderator:
Can I just remind everyone that this thread is on the Muslim Board and that discussions specifically about Christianity should take place elsewhere.
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Hi everyone,
Here is a guide for non muslims on Ramadan etiquette.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/04/us/ramadan-non-muslims-etiquette-guide/index.html
Cheers.
Sriram
That's pretty spot on in my experience.
Ramadan Mubarak all.
So many generalisations - where to start. It's only a month - unless you are soft and weak a month of fasting if you are in generally fairly good health is no big deal, even during the summer. Obesity is a bigger problem for society. For those concerned about self-abuse and health problems - thanks for your concern but maybe try fasting for a month and then you can speak from experience or knowledge - it's not that difficult and if it is Muslims choose not to fast - I know relatives who aren't fasting due to health issues, e.g. acid reflux making it painful to fast. If Muslims are fasting when it is harmful to their health - they shouldn't be.
I have done kung fu training, gone for a 2 mile run, manned the food stall at the school Fun Day all during the summer fasts. I did a 2.5 minute plank and some push-ups this morning before having a shower.
My 12 year old daughter has chosen to give up her weekly 8.5 hrs of club swim practice and her clarinet lessons during Ramadan - is that considered kicking up a fuss? But both of us were quite chuffed at the muscle definition on our stomachs as our bodies have been breaking down fat for energy over the last 3 days - not the reason we fast during Ramadan but a flat stomach at is an added bonus. Of course when Ramadan is over our stomach muscles soon get covered up again as we go back to eating normally.
I agree the first couple of days of fasting can be hard as your body adjusts to broken sleep by getting up at 2.30am to eat something before the fast starts around 3am, but having a nap after work and going to bed by about 10.30pm helps. Muslims often take a few days off work during Ramadan but working is also a good distraction from thinking about food. In my case it's also caffeine withdrawal headaches for the first 2 days but the NHS website has advice on fasting during Ramadan and there are no health issues if you are in generally good health.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Healthyramadan/Pages/fastingandhealth.aspx
I went to my non-Muslim cousin's son's 1st birthday party yesterday with my kids - the 3 of us were fasting and it was a lunch. We had a laugh, chatted to people while they ate and were lucky enough to be given a packed takeaway of the lunch to break fast with later. So we're not eating anything different from non-Muslims when we break fast. Yes I had to explain to a couple of people who kept asking me to go eat that I couldn't because I was fasting - if that is kicking up a fuss, oh well. The people who were there didn't seem to mind and asked questions while continuing to eat.
Muslims feel they get a lot of benefit from Ramadan. It's one month - get over it.
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Moderator:
There is obviously something of interest here, Jim and Ad, so I'll split off your posts on this into a thread that I'll put in R&E and you can continue there.
Done that: the posts moved from here are now here, where discussion on the Christian aspect of fasting and related matters can be continued.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=13975.msg675818#new
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G
What kind of Heaven can one buy into?
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That's pretty spot on in my experience.
Ramadan Mubarak all.
So many generalisations - where to start. It's only a month - unless you are soft and weak a month of fasting if you are in generally fairly good health is no big deal, even during the summer. Obesity is a bigger problem for society. For those concerned about self-abuse and health problems - thanks for your concern but maybe try fasting for a month and then you can speak from experience or knowledge - it's not that difficult and if it is Muslims choose not to fast - I know relatives who aren't fasting due to health issues, e.g. acid reflux making it painful to fast. If Muslims are fasting when it is harmful to their health - they shouldn't be.
I have done kung fu training, gone for a 2 mile run, manned the food stall at the school Fun Day all during the summer fasts. I did a 2.5 minute plank and some push-ups this morning before having a shower.
My 12 year old daughter has chosen to give up her weekly 8.5 hrs of club swim practice and her clarinet lessons during Ramadan - is that considered kicking up a fuss? But both of us were quite chuffed at the muscle definition on our stomachs as our bodies have been breaking down fat for energy over the last 3 days - not the reason we fast during Ramadan but a flat stomach at is an added bonus. Of course when Ramadan is over our stomach muscles soon get covered up again as we go back to eating normally.
I agree the first couple of days of fasting can be hard as your body adjusts to broken sleep by getting up at 2.30am to eat something before the fast starts around 3am, but having a nap after work and going to bed by about 10.30pm helps. Muslims often take a few days off work during Ramadan but working is also a good distraction from thinking about food. In my case it's also caffeine withdrawal headaches for the first 2 days but the NHS website has advice on fasting during Ramadan and there are no health issues if you are in generally good health.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Healthyramadan/Pages/fastingandhealth.aspx
I went to my non-Muslim cousin's son's 1st birthday party yesterday with my kids - the 3 of us were fasting and it was a lunch. We had a laugh, chatted to people while they ate and were lucky enough to be given a packed takeaway of the lunch to break fast with later. So we're not eating anything different from non-Muslims when we break fast. Yes I had to explain to a couple of people who kept asking me to go eat that I couldn't because I was fasting - if that is kicking up a fuss, oh well. The people who were there didn't seem to mind and asked questions while continuing to eat.
Muslims feel they get a lot of benefit from Ramadan. It's one month - get over it.
Gabriella,
That is all fine. But why require a whole community to fast for such a long period? What is its purpose?
There are plenty of good reasons why individuals might want or benefit from fasting for varying periods: for health or religious reasons or even the occasional fasting to death.
But as a group activity - isn't it intended to bolster extremism and in/out group identification? Where people are not 100% fit or in settled environments where they can cope with physiological effects, do they excuse themselves from the fast or continue, just to demonstrate their religiosity or conformity?
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Udayana Bhaiya
Ramadan-Ramzan has NO place in modern society & certainly not among most western countries.
It's a very outdated idea that sits uneasily with big fat rich-pig westerners among us.
Much better to donate than screw your body's natural mechanisms & then go off & binge after & just before. What's the point? EXACTLY !!!
People don't usually get up to eat halfway through the night. Better to go without food for several days to rest the body & just drink liquids.
What is it with self-torture in this religion???? Oh I forgot - buying your way into Heaven with all those lovely virgins & rivers of wine etc. Appealing to a certain mindset with the idea we'll have the same bodies we have on earth, eh????
BTW What do the women do while the fellas are getting pissed with those beauties???
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Udayana Bhaiya
Ramadan-Ramzan has NO place in modern society & certainly not among most western countries.
It's a very outdated idea that sits uneasily with big fat rich-pig westerners among us.
Much better to donate than screw your body's natural mechanisms & then go off & binge after & just before. What's the point? EXACTLY !!!
People don't usually get up to eat halfway through the night. Better to go without food for several days to rest the body & just drink liquids.
What is it with self-torture in this religion???? Oh I forgot - buying your way into Heaven with all those lovely virgins & rivers of wine etc. Appealing to a certain mindset with the idea we'll have the same bodies we have on earth, eh????
BTW What do the women do while the fellas are getting pissed with those beauties???
I take it you have no understanding of anorexia or bulimia?
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Udayana Bhaiya
Ramadan-Ramzan has NO place in modern society & certainly not among most western countries
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I would not go that far. But good/bad effects should be considered, societal not just individual or religious.
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Gabriella,
That is all fine. But why require a whole community to fast for such a long period? What is its purpose?
There are plenty of good reasons why individuals might want or benefit from fasting for varying periods: for health or religious reasons or even the occasional fasting to death.
But as a group activity - isn't it intended to bolster extremism and in/out group identification? Where people are not 100% fit or in settled environments where they can cope with physiological effects, do they excuse themselves from the fast or continue, just to demonstrate their religiosity or conformity?
It's just another tradition based on verses in the Quran that fasting is obligatory in order to practise self-restraint, gain taqwa - an Arabic word that loosely translates as consciousness or remembrance of Allah - and the Islamic belief that the first revelation of the Quran occurred in the month of Ramadan so it is considered a special month.
Islam is supposed to be a way of life or a journey so a lot of things are regulated in a particular way because these specified practices that require self-discipline - e.g. fasting and praying at set times - are considered steps towards self-improvement hopefully. Also it strengthens community ties if everyone is fasting at the same time. Yes the flip-side to regulated, self-improvement activities is that they can be taken too far by some individuals and can lead to extreme measures. Extremism is one of the risks of the human ability to hold abstract ideas and follow ideologies and beliefs - religious, political, philosophical, moral etc. Verses in the Quran and certain Hadith promote balance and not exceeding limits - but obviously individuals can choose to ignore that.
Lots of Muslims don't fast for health reasons or old age in this country - so not really an in/out group - there are alternatives in the Quran for those who don't fast - making up the fast on other days or feeding a poor person.
If someone wants to fast because they think it proves their religiosity - that's their choice - if there is evidence they are putting a strain on health services by doing so then the issue would need to be addressed.
People do extreme sports, run marathons - they could be relaxing and not bothering - but they get something out of it. Same with fasting. It certainly helps me in an increasingly instant gratification society to have a reason to practise self-restraint. Also helps when we're out and the kids want me to spend money on food or drinks rather than waiting until we get home and they claim to be starving, I remind them they have fasted without a problem so they'll survive for a couple of hours until we get home :)
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''and the Islamic belief that the first revelation of the Quran occurred in the month of Ramadan so it is considered a special month.''
How can that be? Was Ramadan there BEFORE Islam came about? If so, who was fasting, the Jews?
''Also it strengthens community ties if everyone is fasting at the same time. ''
Or killing non-Muslims or Hindus etc etc. Yes it IS a silly statement I made !!!!
'' if there is evidence they are putting a strain on health services by doing so then the issue would need to be addressed. ''
MMM Like the host community is more important than their faith. ;)
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''Also it strengthens community ties if everyone is fasting at the same time. ''
It does!
How many Muslims do you know who,having been strengthened by Ramadan, go out and Kill anyone?
Stop being such a fledgling EDL/BNP type and join in other discussions, beginning to think you and your 'grinning' imp-like posts are your only interest.
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People do extreme sports, run marathons - they could be relaxing and not bothering - but they get something out of it. Same with fasting. It certainly helps me in an increasingly instant gratification society to have a reason to practise self-restraint. Also helps when we're out and the kids want me to spend money on food or drinks rather than waiting until we get home and they claim to be starving, I remind them they have fasted without a problem so they'll survive for a couple of hours until we get home :)
Having run the odd marathon or two I am certainly in favour of them. They do help raise a lot of money for charitable causes. However these are individual efforts for individual benefits.
Imagine an English social tradition where everyone between 16 and 60 that was able, ran a marathon on St Georges day to affirm their allegiance to king and country. Wouldn't that have ramifications throughout society? You would need good reason to institute such a practice.
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Well, in the case of fasting I see it as a positive group activity - given that the idea of Ramadan is to practise self-restraint and God-consciousness (taqwa) for 30 days in the hope that it will spill over and influence how you behave the rest of the year i.e. 30 days of fasting might cause the development of a habit of self-restraint and awareness that your good and bad deeds are being judged even when it is not Ramadan.
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Agreed but it also depends on what you think is a 'good or bad deed' na?
Terrorists must feel what they're doing is acceptable in fellow fuckwits & Allah's eyes, na?
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Yeah and they're wrong, they've been groomed and manipulated & end up dead while the manipulators live on to mastermind more chaos.
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R Again Exactly
When you have a religion so vague that to give one's life to a cause can mean blowing up 'innocents', what can you do?
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You do know that becoming a martyr isn't an idea that is exclusive to religion? The idea of martyrdom has been part of philosophy, politics and patriotism. Lots of people can be willing to die or kill for a principle or cause, especially when they think their own survival or the survival of their group depends on it. It's up to societies to have rules in place to control this. But IS are outside mainstream society and laws - they make their own laws.
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R Again Exactly
When you have a religion so vague that to give one's life to a cause can mean blowing up 'innocents', what can you do?
What Gabriella said and I don't see Ramadan as contributing to blowing up anyone, Ramadan doens't affect non-Muslims.
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G
'' It's up to societies to have rules in place to control this. But IS are outside mainstream society and laws - they make their own laws.''
Based on what, may I ask?
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Collective mental illness.
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Collective mental illness.
OH STOP IT NOW !!! Bad Lad. ;)
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I read somewhere that some muslims have asked for a ban on bikinis during Ramadan on some beaches. I don't know how far that is true though!
Are the local women likely to oblige, I wonder? :-\
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No & I doubt it is true,certainly in this country no-one would ban bikinis.
Now nankinis are a different matter, they're an offence against good taste!
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Nankinis?
Are they the ones for pensioners?
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I read somewhere that some muslims have asked for a ban on bikinis during Ramadan on some beaches. I don't know how far that is true though!
Are the local women likely to oblige, I wonder? :-\
To hell with Muslims and their delusions. I am all for telling them they have no business to condemn our way of life, and their so called prophet was a lying bandit.
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To hell with Muslims and their delusions. I am all for telling them they have no business to condemn our way of life, and their so called prophet was a lying bandit.
Why would people have no business on expressing their views in a democracy?
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Why would people have no business on expressing their views in a democracy?
I thought that was fairly clear! ::) This is not about anyone expressing their views. It is about expecting others to change their lifestyle, in their own country.
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Why would people have no business on expressing their views in a democracy?
Many Muslims don't want a democracy, they want Sharia law.
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Many Muslims don't want a democracy, they want Sharia law.
And while I disagree with that part of a democracy allows people to argue against it. So again why would peopke have no business expressing their opinion in a democracy?
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And while I disagree with that part of a democracy allows people to argue against it. So again why would peopke have no business expressing their opinion in a democracy?
There are Muslims that run around with placards in London saying things like. "behead those who insult Muhammad"
They want to ban Christmas and Easter, and all kinds of things like that, and impose their rules on us.
They don't simply express opinions they are actively trying to undermine our democratic way of life
All I am saying is that if they can say these things, we can tell them what we think of their crap.
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Abio
There are Muslims that run around with placards in London saying things like. "behead those who insult Muhammad"
They want to ban Christmas and Easter, and all kinds of things like that, and impose their rules on us.
They don't simply express opinions they are actively trying to undermine our democratic way of life
All I am saying is that if they can say these things, we can tell them what we think of their crap.
absolutely you can tell them what you think of their crap, I haven't said you shouldn't. However what you did say was they had no business saying that in a democracy. My question was why nor?
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Abio
absolutely you can tell them what you think of their crap, I haven't said you shouldn't. However what you did say was they had no business saying that in a democracy. My question was why nor?
Well it wasn't about them expressing an opinion, it was about them asking for a ban on women wearing bikinis during Ramadhan.
That's an active attempt to interfere with our way of life, and impose their dismal rules on us.
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Well it wasn't about them expressing an opinion, it was about them asking for a ban on women wearing bikinis during Ramadhan.
That's an active attempt to interfere with our way of life, and impose their dismal rules on us.
How is asking for a ban, if some people actually did, not expressing an opinion more than say someone asking for a handgun ban in the US? Or in my case a ban on Orange Walks outside my door?
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How is asking for a ban, if some people actually did, not expressing an opinion more than say someone asking for a handgun ban in the US? Or in my case a ban on Orange Walks outside my door?
Because its their religious bigotry that makes them want to tell our women what they can wear. Muslim women may like to drape themselves from head to foot in black, but why should we respect that, and why should they get away with trying to impose rules of dress on us. We have our own long traditions of fashion, and we have not covered our women from head to foot since Victorian times.
In our democracy they might have the right to criticize our ways, but we do not have to take any notice, let alone comply.
I go with the Queen, who said of Muslim extremists, in one of her Christmas speeches. "You will not change our way of life"
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Because its their religious bigotry that makes them want to tell our women what they can wear. Muslim women may like to drape themselves from head to foot in black, but why should we respect that, and why should they get away with trying to impose rules of dress on us. We have our own long traditions of fashion, and we have not covered our women from head to foot since Victorian times.
In our democracy they might have the right to criticize our ways, but we do not have to take any notice, let alone comply.
I go with the Queen, who said of Muslim extremists, in one of her Christmas speeches. "You will not change our way of life"
Thete's a long tradition of Orange Walks outside my door, why I am wrong to express my objection?
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Thete's a long tradition of Orange Walks outside my door, why I am wrong to express my objection?
I don't remember saying you were wrong to object.
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I don't remember saying you were wrong to object.
So ergo some Muslims are not wrong to object to things.
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G
'' It's up to societies to have rules in place to control this. But IS are outside mainstream society and laws - they make their own laws.''
Based on what, may I ask?
Based on brainwashing by charismatic individuals who offer simplistic slogans and solutions to those with a violent, black and white mentality.
No I am not talking about successive US governments and their version of Patriotism or National Interest that resulted in individuals being elected or appointed who helped orchestrate coups, civil wars or dropped bombs on people abroad (collateral damage); I am in fact talking about the ideological solutions that IS call Islam whereby IS claim any Muslim who does not follow their ideology is a traitor and deserves to be killed.
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So ergo some Muslims are not wrong to object to things.
They can object to whatever they like, but it does not end there. They try to take control of us. For example practically the first thing the Mayor of London did when he got into power was to censor advertisements on the tube stations. He stopped them showing scantily clad women. What Muslims really want is to rule us, and impose sharia law.
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They can object to whatever they like, but it does not end there. They try to take control of us. For example practically the first thing the Mayor of London did when he got into power was to censor advertisements on the tube stations. He stopped them showing scantily clad women. What Muslims really want is to rule us, and impose sharia law.
As a regular traveller on the LU why are you talking pish? Here is the actual story.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/sadiq-khan-there-will-be-no-more-body-shaming-adverts-on-the-tube-a3269951.html
Read it and then say this was just Khan imposing Sharia law!
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Very well said NS.
Couldn't believe what Dajjal said about the Mayor, LU adverts and sharia. That's the sort of stuff we get from the likes of the EDL.
I knew it wasn't true, Sadiq Khan is a Londoner with two Londoner teenage kids.
Honestly ::).
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Item from the sun newspaper.
SADIQ Khan is engulfed in a new race storm after it emerged he branded
moderate Muslims “Uncle Toms”.
Labour’s candidate for London Mayor used the highly derogatory term during an
interview with an Iranian-funded TV station.
The frowned-on phrase from the slavery era refers to a black man considered to
be excessively obedient to whites
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Item from the sun newspaper.
SADIQ Khan is engulfed in a new race storm after it emerged he branded
moderate Muslims “Uncle Toms”.
Labour’s candidate for London Mayor used the highly derogatory term during an
interview with an Iranian-funded TV station.
The frowned-on phrase from the slavery era refers to a black man considered to
be excessively obedient to whites
Why did you ignore the challenge to your unevindenced assertion?
why are you off on strawnen?
And the Sun?
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/04/labour-plunged-into-fresh-race-row-as-london-mayoral-candidate-s/
Context is everything.
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Why did you ignore the challenge to your unevindenced assertion?
why are you off on strawnen?
And the Sun?
I doubt Sadiq Khan's real intentions, as he has spoken to defend extremists in the past.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4578668/Sadiq-Khan-s-conference-London-Bridge-killer-s-friend.html
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I doubt Sadiq Khan's real intentions, as he has spoken to defend extremists in the past.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4578668/Sadiq-Khan-s-conference-London-Bridge-killer-s-friend.html
"Attending same conference as" does not equal "defending extremists" ::)
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I doubt Sadiq Khan's real intentions, as he has spoken to defend extremists in the past.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4578668/Sadiq-Khan-s-conference-London-Bridge-killer-s-friend.html
Even the rather atrociously written article doesn't say that.
Oh and why did you just not answer the questions that where asked?