Religion and Ethics Forum

Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Gordon on February 23, 2017, 01:19:50 PM

Title: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Gordon on February 23, 2017, 01:19:50 PM
This thread contain posts that were off-topic where they were originally posted.

However, since they concern an issue (Religious Fasting) that might be worthy of specific discussion we've moved the posts here should anyone wish to continue discussing this issue.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 30, 2017, 05:58:14 AM
few adhere to traditional Lenten practices any more.

Amongst western Christians, true. They've forgotten how to fast. Most see it as something not integral to the Christian life and even the modern Roman obligations are a joke (two days a year during Lent and one hour before communion).
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 30, 2017, 08:34:49 AM
Amongst western Christians, true. They've forgotten how to fast. Most see it as something not integral to the Christian life and even the modern Roman obligations are a joke (two days a year during Lent and one hour before communion).



Probably because they are only traditions and not Scriptural injunctions.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 30, 2017, 09:34:55 AM


Probably because they are only traditions and not Scriptural injunctions.

Anyone who thinks it's not integral does not understand Christianity.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 30, 2017, 03:17:51 PM
Anyone who thinks it's not integral does not understand Christianity.
Please find - in Scripture - the relevent passages ordering us to observe the 'Christian year', ad_O. Yes, we are given advice on fasting - but not when to fast. We are also given injunction to remember Christ in communion - but not the frequency or methodology of that rememberance. (Mods: Forgive me for answering Ad_O's post - should you wish, you can delete this - or alternatively, Ad-O might wish to respond on the Christian board)
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 30, 2017, 04:50:55 PM
Please find - in Scripture - the relevent passages ordering us to observe the 'Christian year', ad_O. Yes, we are given advice on fasting - but not when to fast. We are also given injunction to remember Christ in communion - but not the frequency or methodology of that rememberance. (Mods: Forgive me for answering Ad_O's post - should you wish, you can delete this - or alternatively, Ad-O might wish to respond on the Christian board)

That's why you can't separate the scriptures from the life of the Church. But the you hold to the scripture alone heresy. Christians have always fasted before communion and in the period before Easter. If you can't see why that's important or how it is entirely scriptual then it shows how detatched protestants have become from the life of the Church Christ himself founded.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 30, 2017, 04:56:07 PM
With respect, Ad-O, not even all Orthodox Christians observe the standard Christian year - at least they don't in Ethiopia and in some strands of the Coptic Church - which predates Eastern Orthodoxy by some time.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 30, 2017, 07:52:58 PM
With respect, Ad-O, not even all Orthodox Christians observe the standard Christian year - at least they don't in Ethiopia and in some strands of the Coptic Church - which predates Eastern Orthodoxy by some time.

That is a completely diffetent thing. And no, they do not predate Orthodoxy. All practice Eucharistic and Lentern fasts.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 30, 2017, 09:33:07 PM
Again, sorry. The Coptic Church is older than that of Constantinople - the literature and some of the practices are well known from the mid second century. As for the Ethiopian Orthodox Church? Much of the practices there are somewhat divorced from that of Constantinople, and bear all the hallmarks of an amalgum of Coptic Christianity with its' proto=-monasticism and post Pharonic African/Nubian influence.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 30, 2017, 11:34:23 PM
Again, sorry. The Coptic Church is older than that of Constantinople - the literature and some of the practices are well known from the mid second century. As for the Ethiopian Orthodox Church? Much of the practices there are somewhat divorced from that of Constantinople, and bear all the hallmarks of an amalgum of Coptic Christianity with its' proto=-monasticism and post Pharonic African/Nubian influence.

Orthodoxy is more than Constantinople. It existed before Constantinople and would exist without it. Orthodoxy isn't a physical place. It was there from the beginning, for it is the faith. But then I wouldn't expect you to understand. Few outside do.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Robbie on May 31, 2017, 12:24:17 AM
Regardless of which tradition we follow fasting will figure at some point. The question is, does it achieve anything?
I think it does, one example is when a church group has a prayer vigil with fasting for a particular intention. It helps people who fast and pray together intensely, if only for a relatively short period, to be focussed.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Sebastian Toe on May 31, 2017, 07:20:02 AM
Even although I am not Muslim, during Ramadan I fast four times a day every day - in between meals.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 31, 2017, 08:34:55 AM
Regardless of which tradition we follow fasting will figure at some point. The question is, does it achieve anything?
I think it does, one example is when a church group has a prayer vigil with fasting for a particular intention. It helps people who fast and pray together intensely, if only for a relatively short period, to be focussed.



-
Yes:
Fasting simpply because it is the correct day/month to do so is a bit too ritualistic for me.
We fast, singularly or in groups, as part of a spiritual discipline or prayer time aimed at a specific goal, not because the calandar tells us to.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Nearly Sane on May 31, 2017, 08:49:45 AM
Regardless of which tradition we follow fasting will figure at some point. The question is, does it achieve anything?
I think it does, one example is when a church group has a prayer vigil with fasting for a particular intention. It helps people who fast and pray together intensely, if only for a relatively short period, to be focussed.
Focussed on what? McDonald's?

Levity aside, there is something odd about our psyche when we seem to work that by denying something you are less conscious of it. I think this is a denial of the multifarious ways we are. It works, apparently for some, but for others not so much
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 08:57:36 AM


-
Yes:
Fasting simpply because it is the correct day/month to do so is a bit too ritualistic for me.
We fast, singularly or in groups, as part of a spiritual discipline or prayer time aimed at a specific goal, not because the calandar tells us to.

How Protestant. But the calendar is important, even if you don't acknowlege that. Creation reflects its creator and the calendar puts the liturgy in sync with the cosmos. The Church knew this from the beginning. That is why, for instance, we (including you) celebrate the Nativity at midwinter or the Annunciation nine months earlier. If you think it's all bollocks then may I suggest celebrating the Nativity during the summer.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 09:04:29 AM
How Protestant. But the calendar is important, even if you don't acknowlege that. Creation reflects its creator and the calendar puts the liturgy in sync with the cosmos. The Church knew this from the beginning. That is why, for instance, we (including you) celebrate the Nativity at midwinter or the Annunciation nine months earlier. If you think it's all bollocks then may I suggest celebrating the Nativity during the summer.

Liturgy in sync with the cosmos? ;D
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ekim on May 31, 2017, 09:10:00 AM
Even although I am not Muslim, during Ramadan I fast four times a day every day - in between meals.
I fast every night, then breakfast in the morning.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 09:11:49 AM
Liturgy in sync with the cosmos? ;D

At what time of the year do we celebrate the Nativity? What happens in the cosmos after that? Who is the light?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Nearly Sane on May 31, 2017, 09:13:28 AM
Liturgy in sync with the cosmos? ;D
Indeed! Oddly enough, the first time I questioned the faith I was brought up in was because of the story not being in line with the weather. If you are a slightly arsey child being told that it's always bad weather at 3pm on Good Friday will lead you to carefully observe (yes, that is a split inifinitive but that 'rule' is nonsense).
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Nearly Sane on May 31, 2017, 09:14:27 AM
At what time of the year do we celebrate the Nativity? What happens in the cosmos after that? Who is the light?
You big pagan. BTW what about Australia?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 09:14:34 AM
At what time of the year do we celebrate the Nativity? What happens in the cosmos after that? Who is the light?
The sun is the light in our bit of the cosmos.

Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 31, 2017, 09:16:26 AM
How Protestant. But the calendar is important, even if you don't acknowlege that. Creation reflects its creator and the calendar puts the liturgy in sync with the cosmos. The Church knew this from the beginning. That is why, for instance, we (including you) celebrate the Nativity at midwinter or the Annunciation nine months earlier. If you think it's all bollocks then may I suggest celebrating the Nativity during the summer.

-
Bad choice, AD-O!
Most scholars - even Orthodox scholars - agree that the winter solstice was a cynical political move to trump the pagan Saturnalia by the political priests in the nascant Empire church.
The Incarnation probably happened in February March - or September, at the outside.
When you get right down to it, the only semi-fixed observance in the 'Christian year' is Easter - and the Church can't even get that right (and, as I understand it, various Orthodox churches are as confused as the rest of us)
It doesn't matter a bean when the Nativity happened.
All that matters is that it happened.
Dates were given to try and keep the semi-literate in line, denied as they wwere the joy of reading Scripture for themselves by a church frightened they would see the flaws in 'tradition'.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 09:17:12 AM
-
Bad choice, AD-O!
Most scholars - even Orthodox scholars - agree that the winter solstice was a cynical political move to trump the pagan Saturnalia by the political priests in the nascant Empire church.
The Incarnation probably happened in February March - or September, at the outside.
When you get right down to it, the only semi-fixed observance in the 'Christian year' is Easter - and the Church can't even get that right (and, as I understand it, various Orthodox churches are as confused as the rest of us)
It doesn't matter a bean when the Nativity happened.
All that matters is that it happened.
Dates were given to try and keep the semi-literate in line, denied as they wwere the joy of reading Scripture for themselves by a church frightened they would see the flaws in 'tradition'.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 09:20:57 AM
-
Bad choice, AD-O!
Most scholars - even Orthodox scholars - agree that the winter solstice was a cynical political move to trump the pagan Saturnalia by the political priests in the nascant Empire church.
The Incarnation probably happened in February March - or September, at the outside.
When you get right down to it, the only semi-fixed observance in the 'Christian year' is Easter - and the Church can't even get that right (and, as I understand it, various Orthodox churches are as confused as the rest of us)
It doesn't matter a bean when the Nativity happened.
All that matters is that it happened.
Dates were given to try and keep the semi-literate in line, denied as they wwere the joy of reading Scripture for themselves by a church frightened they would see the flaws in 'tradition'.

Thanks for the semi-gnostic, iconoclastic drivel.

One of the oldest feasts in the in the calendar is the Annunciation. It is from that that the Church arrived at midwinter for the Nativity. You're talking bollocks again. May I suggest you celebrate Christmas on the 17th of June. Otherwise you're a hypicrite and a blind follower of the traditions of men.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 09:21:40 AM
Agreed.

Piss off, Floo, this is way above your head.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 09:22:41 AM
Piss off, Floo, this is way above your head.

Oh dear is that the best you can do when you are trounced?  ::)
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Bubbles on May 31, 2017, 09:34:45 AM
Religion aside, they reckon fasting can be good for you as it is closer to how your body has evolved to cope with periods of plenty and hunger.

It's even meant to help with diabetes and weight loss

:)
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 09:35:49 AM
Oh dear is that the best you can do when you are trounced?  ::)

Trounced? Hardly.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Nearly Sane on May 31, 2017, 09:39:28 AM
Religion aside, they reckon fasting can be good for you as it is closer to how your body has evolved to cope with periods of plenty and hunger.

It's even meant to help with diabetes and weight loss

:)
I am always suspicious of 'they'. I need to know who 'they' are to evaluate what 'they' are saying.

Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 31, 2017, 10:27:01 AM
Thanks for the semi-gnostic, iconoclastic drivel.

One of the oldest feasts in the in the calendar is the Annunciation. It is from that that the Church arrived at midwinter for the Nativity. You're talking bollocks again. May I suggest you celebrate Christmas on the 17th of June. Otherwise you're a hypicrite and a blind follower of the traditions of men.


-
Please show me in Scriptures - or any letter from 1st century times, where we are ordered to celebrate the Announciation?
Surely, were it so important, it would have appeared in the Didache - the earliest document we have relating to 1st century worship?
It did not.
QED.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 10:28:28 AM

-
Please show me in Scriptures - or any letter from 1st century times, where we are ordered to celebrate the Announciation?
Surely, were it so important, it would have appeared in the Didache - the earliest document we have relating to 1st century worship?
It did not.
QED.

Then you obviously don't believe it. If you did you would celebrate it. Just as I suspected.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 10:32:53 AM
Religion aside, they reckon fasting can be good for you as it is closer to how your body has evolved to cope with periods of plenty and hunger.

It's even meant to help with diabetes and weight loss

:)

Fasting should only be done in a very controlled way for health reasons, definitely not for religious ones, imo.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 10:33:35 AM
This is Protestantism in a nutshell. It is essentially gnostic and iconoclast. It removes anything physical from its so-called praise, including the creation which God himself created. They should just be honest, go all out and start believing in the demiurge.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 10:34:19 AM
Then you obviously don't believe it. If you did you would celebrate it. Just as I suspected.

You believe in a flawed tradition which doesn't do anyone any good, including you, if your posts reflect your personality.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 10:35:15 AM
You believe in a flawed tradition which doesn't do anyone any good, including you, if your posts reflect your personality.

Didn't I tell you to go away?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 10:48:26 AM
Didn't I tell you to go away?


 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 31, 2017, 11:03:03 AM
Then you obviously don't believe it. If you did you would celebrate it. Just as I suspected.



-
So that means you can find nothing from first - or second century for that matter - material to tell us when to celebrate these events?
Thanks for the (lack of) clarification.
As to belief?
Do I accept God chose a very special young woman to bear Christ?
Yes - as do all Christians.
Do I believe she is any more special now than anyone else who accepts Christ as LORD?
No.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 11:12:21 AM


-
So that means you can find nothing from first - or second century for that matter - material to tell us when to celebrate these events?
Thanks for the (lack of) clarification.
As to belief?
Do I accept God chose a very special young woman to bear Christ?
Yes - as do all Christians.
Do I believe she is any more special now than anyone else who accepts Christ as LORD?
No.

What a get out clause. Do you celebrate Christmas? And yes, the Annunciation is scriptural. It's in the bloody gospel.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 31, 2017, 11:16:22 AM
What a get out clause. Do you celebrate Christmas? And yes, the Annunciation is scriptural. It's in the bloody gospel.



-
Yes I celebrate Christ's Incarnation - were that to be in December, March or September means diddly squat.
As for the annunciation?
I've read Luke's account - even preached on it. I still can't find any indication as to when it happened or that we are to celebrate it, either in Scripture or, for that matter, first century Christian writings.
Can you help, please?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 11:20:56 AM


-
Yes I celebrate Christ's Incarnation - were that to be in December, March or September means diddly squat.
As for the annunciation?
I've read Luke's account - even preached on it. I still can't find any indication as to when it happened or that we are to celebrate it, either in Scripture or, for that matter, first century Christian writings.
Can you help, please?

Then you're making an excellent argument for you to stop celebrating Christmas too. Stop being so inconsistent.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 31, 2017, 11:22:13 AM
Ah; that'll be a 'no', then. Thanks.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 11:28:40 AM
Poor Ad-o one does have to feel sorry for the guy, he is so befuddled due to his brain being tainted by his nonsense dogma!
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 11:29:05 AM
Ah; that'll be a 'no', then. Thanks.

You're avoiding your inconsistency. Celebrating all those feasts is entirely scriptual. They're all to be found in the scriptures.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 11:29:31 AM
Poor Ad-o one does have to feel sorry for the guy, he is so befuddled due to his brain being tainted by his nonsense dogma!

What are you still doing here?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 11:31:07 AM
What are you still doing here?

I hope you are getting help with your undoubted problems, they seem to be getting worse! :o
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Rhiannon on May 31, 2017, 12:17:01 PM
Fasting affects blood sugar levels. This in turn can cause light headedness and feeling spaced out. No wonder it is a part of some religious disciplines - it's a very effective way of inducing spiritual experiences.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 31, 2017, 12:31:41 PM
You're avoiding your inconsistency. Celebrating all those feasts is entirely scriptual. They're all to be found in the scriptures.



-
So; please provide Chapter and verse to indicate that we should celebrate them.
Apart from Communion, I can find no such references.
Perhaps you can enlighten me?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 01:20:18 PM

-
So; please provide Chapter and verse to indicate that we should celebrate them.
Apart from Communion, I can find no such references.
Perhaps you can enlighten me?

All those events are in the scriptures. The scriptures don't need to tell us to celebrate them, firstly, because we believe them therefore we celebrate them, secondly, because we do not hold to the sola scriptura heresy.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on May 31, 2017, 01:37:47 PM
Ah; another 'no', then, ad-o. So there is, in fact, no injunction or instruction in God's word telling us to commemorate anything, other than the Lord's supper. Again, thanks.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 01:49:44 PM
Ah; another 'no', then, ad-o. So there is, in fact, no injunction or instruction in God's word telling us to commemorate anything, other than the Lord's supper. Again, thanks.

Only because you hold to the heresy of scripture alone, but all those events are in the scriptures. So, if you believe therefore you celebrate. It really is as simple as that. Don't celebrate, don't believe.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 02:09:11 PM
All those events are in the scriptures. The scriptures don't need to tell us to celebrate them, firstly, because we believe them therefore we celebrate them, secondly, because we do not hold to the sola scriptura heresy.

Meaning your lot make it up as they go along!
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on May 31, 2017, 02:10:30 PM
Zzzzz! Ah, look! Proddy Floo.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 02:32:33 PM
Zzzzz! Ah, look! Proddy Floo.

You keep banging on about how superior the beliefs of your Church are to those of other Christian denominations, but what good has it done you, your posts are full of hatred and bile?

I certainly don't see things the same way as Alan Burns, and often challenge him, as do others, but he doesn't respond in the unpleasant way you do.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Robbie on May 31, 2017, 02:41:37 PM
Seems to me floo to be more a case of being unable to see another point of view,or enter into a discussion. Just firing bullets doesn't add anything.

This thread surely was not started for anything other than people discussing what fasting meant to them in a religious context (any religion).

Does God value one traditional way of fasting over another? He looks into the minds of those who fast.

My view, nothing wrong with doing things at certain times if you can as long as the custom doesn't enslave.

Nothing wrong with people fasting individually at any time in order to focus - or with others.Both have benefits.

As long as a person is reasonably well fasting is good for health.

Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 02:46:16 PM
Everyone is entitled to their view of faith always providing they don't claim theirs is superior or true!
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Robbie on May 31, 2017, 02:49:59 PM
Yes! Oneupmanship not necessary & stifles discussion.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Nearly Sane on May 31, 2017, 03:06:11 PM
Everyone is entitled to their view of faith always providing they don't claim theirs is superior or true!
Is that true?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on May 31, 2017, 03:20:10 PM
Is that true?

I should have added or force it on others in an abusive way.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Shaker on May 31, 2017, 08:46:38 PM
What, exactly, is supposed to be this "virtue" in fasting anyway?  I fast for 6 to 7 hours every night; I call it being asleep. Like my hero Mark Twain and smoking, I consider the biological necessity of sleep abstinence enough for my purposes.

Otherwise, I "fasted" for 13.7 billion years before I rocked up here and will do for an unspecified amount of time afterward. While I am here I am here to do, not not do. I suppose there's some creepy love of suffering and doing without and mortification of that traditional Christian enemy (the flesh) at work here for the weirdos. For myself, as I say, I am here to do; the grave supplies all its own opportunities for abstinence.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on June 01, 2017, 08:39:51 AM
It is good to see you posting again Shaker, I wondered where you were. :)
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Robbie on June 01, 2017, 10:46:50 AM
Iunderstand what SHaker said, my belief is fasting should be a voluntary thing & done without making a fuss. It's easy for some to go without food for a while.

Gabriella has talked on one of the Muslim threads about what fasting in Ramadan means to her -not a pleasant thread on the whole but her contribution was interesting & i think would be welcome on this thread.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ippy on June 01, 2017, 05:45:47 PM
I have to fast for a blood test next week, at least that blood test has a worthwhile purpose.

ippy 
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: jeremyp on June 01, 2017, 07:59:54 PM
If you think it's all bollocks then may I suggest celebrating the Nativity during the summer.

You mean like Australian Christians do?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: jeremyp on June 01, 2017, 08:05:10 PM
Piss off, Floo, this is way above your head.
It looks like it's pretty much above yours too. Your claim about synchronising the liturgy and the cosmos is obvious bunk. The only way anybody in the second century would have come up with that ideas is if they didn't know the Southern hemisphere exists, which, of course they didn't, which is a bit odd for people claiming to be in a direct personal relationship with the Universe's creator.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: jeremyp on June 01, 2017, 08:08:14 PM
You're avoiding your inconsistency. Celebrating all those feasts is entirely scriptual. They're all to be found in the scriptures.
Where is celebrating Christmas mentioned in the Bible and where ids a date given for the birth of Christ?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: jeremyp on June 01, 2017, 08:14:06 PM
Only because you hold to the heresy of scripture alone, but all those events are in the scriptures. So, if you believe therefore you celebrate. It really is as simple as that. Don't celebrate, don't believe.
It's as simple as believing the stuff that is written down and also some stuff that the church seems to have made up. We look at the earliest records - those in the Bible and we find nothing about when to celebrate Christmas or even whether to celebrate Christmas. Then, some centuries later we have evidence that a tradition has grown up but no evidence as to how it started except that it seems to mysteriously coincide with an old pagan festival.

Sorry Ad O. your argument has no credibility.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on June 01, 2017, 08:27:47 PM
It's as simple as believing the stuff that is written down and also some stuff that the church seems to have made up. We look at the earliest records - those in the Bible and we find nothing about when to celebrate Christmas or even whether to celebrate Christmas. Then, some centuries later we have evidence that a tradition has grown up but no evidence as to how it started except that it seems to mysteriously coincide with an old pagan festival.

Sorry Ad O. your argument has no credibility.

It seems you have no understanding. Christ is the light of the world which is why we know he came into it at midwinter when the sun begins to increase, for creation speaks of its creator.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ippy on June 02, 2017, 12:52:41 AM
It seems you have no understanding. Christ is the light of the world which is why we know he came into it at midwinter when the sun begins to increase, for creation speaks of its creator.

Exactly where did you get this information from A O?

ippy
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on June 02, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
Exactly where did you get this information from A O?

ippy



I'd like to know that as well.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on June 02, 2017, 10:52:27 AM
It comes from a proper understanding of creation and its creator, that although fallen creation is still essentially good and that it points to one one that created it. The sun is an icon of Christ. That is why we the cosmos joins us in our praise, God made it so, wjy our churches are orientated to east and why we a buried so, why we have calendar etc.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on June 02, 2017, 11:10:02 AM
Eh? What's that goot to do with when Christ was born? You'll find most Christian scholars, be they Catholic, Orthodox or reformed, concede that the midwinter date was purely a religio/political move to 'Christianise' the pre-existant festival. That has been admitted for centuries by Christian thinkers of all denominations.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on June 02, 2017, 11:36:14 AM
Eh? What's that goot to do with when Christ was born? You'll find most Christian scholars, be they Catholic, Orthodox or reformed, concede that the midwinter date was purely a religio/political move to 'Christianise' the pre-existant festival. That has been admitted for centuries by Christian thinkers of all denominations.

But that's simply not true. The date for Christnas cones from the date of the Annunciation, an older feast by at least a hundred years. Your claim, therefore, doesn't add up.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Gordon on June 02, 2017, 12:18:07 PM
But that's simply not true. The date for Christnas cones from the date of the Annunciation, an older feast by at least a hundred years. Your claim, therefore, doesn't add up.

That can't be right: Christmas was superimposed on pre-Christian midwinter festivals, most notably the Roman one of Saturnalia.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on June 02, 2017, 12:33:06 PM
But that's simply not true. The date for Christnas cones from the date of the Annunciation, an older feast by at least a hundred years. Your claim, therefore, doesn't add up.



-
But we have no knowledge of when, precuisely, the Annunciation occurred - nor when it was first celebrated. Certainly there is no mention of any celebration, either in Scripture, or in the earliest, most reliable, Christian writings of the first or second centuries.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on June 02, 2017, 12:34:17 PM
That can't be right: Christmas was superimposed on pre-Christian midwinter festivals, most notably the Roman one of Saturnalia.
 

Wrong. Which is the older feast? The Annunciation or the Nativity? The Annunciation by over a hundred years. Date of said feast 25th of March. Add nine months and you arrive at the Nativity. It's not just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on June 02, 2017, 12:37:07 PM


-
But we have no knowledge of when, precuisely, the Annunciation occurred - nor when it was first celebrated. Certainly there is no mention of any celebration, either in Scripture, or in the earliest, most reliable, Christian writings of the first or second centuries.

We have knowledge of the feast of the Annunciation at least as early as St. Irenaeus who had met St. Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle St. John.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on June 02, 2017, 12:39:25 PM
 

Wrong. Which is the older feast? The Annunciation or the Nativity? The Annunciation by over a hundred years. Date of said feast 25th of March. Add nine months and you arrive at the Nativity. It's not just a coincidence.



-
Strange that the earliest writing we have dealing with early Christian worship, the Didache - the teaching of the twelve apostles - doesn't mention it, then.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on June 02, 2017, 12:41:56 PM
We have knowledge of the feast of the Annunciation at least as early as St. Irenaeus who had met St. Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle St. John.
- 'swhat I said. No first or early second century writing to mention when we are supposed to commemorate it - or even IF we are.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Gordon on June 02, 2017, 12:44:55 PM
 

Wrong. Which is the older feast? The Annunciation or the Nativity? The Annunciation by over a hundred years. Date of said feast 25th of March. Add nine months and you arrive at the Nativity. It's not just a coincidence.

Nope - Saturnalia is older than any Christian festival (since it pre-dates anything Christian).
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ad_orientem on June 02, 2017, 12:53:01 PM
- 'swhat I said. No first or early second century writing to mention when we are supposed to commemorate it - or even IF we are.

Er, you obviously have no idea when Irenaeus lived. Second century.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ippy on June 02, 2017, 01:25:15 PM
Er, you obviously have no idea when Irenaeus lived. Second century.

How really interesting and of course, important.

ippy   
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Anchorman on June 02, 2017, 03:45:39 PM
How really interesting and of course, important.

ippy   



Actually, he's not wrong, ippy.
However I did note that there are no Christian writings  concerning the observation of any Christian feasts before the mid second century.
I stand by that.
The Didache - the teaching of the twelve - is contempory with the later Pauline epistles - around AD80-90 at the latest.
It was part of early NT lists but rejected on two grounds: authorship and overtly 'Jewish' content.
Nevertheless it does give account of early Christian worship.
Had there been any calendar dates to celebrate, one would have thought they'd have ended up there - and they haven't.
Many such dates were invented by the bishopric to try and make up for a semi-literate following's lack of access to the writings themselves.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: ippy on June 02, 2017, 06:37:23 PM


Actually, he's not wrong, ippy.
However I did note that there are no Christian writings  concerning the observation of any Christian feasts before the mid second century.
I stand by that.
The Didache - the teaching of the twelve - is contempory with the later Pauline epistles - around AD80-90 at the latest.
It was part of early NT lists but rejected on two grounds: authorship and overtly 'Jewish' content.
Nevertheless it does give account of early Christian worship.
Had there been any calendar dates to celebrate, one would have thought they'd have ended up there - and they haven't.4
Many such dates were invented by the bishopric to try and make up for a semi-literate following's lack of access to the writings themselves.

I'm sorry but untill the various religious beliefs can establish some sort of credibility, especially in the magical, mystical and superstition based departments of any one or all of these beliefs, these details might just as well be discussions about the inns and outs of any Harry Potter novel of your choice.

Credibility, I've not seen yet, first and then start settling the details.

ippy
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: DaveM on June 03, 2017, 04:46:41 PM
If you want to practice true fasting then simply follow the advice given in Isaiah 58.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on June 03, 2017, 05:10:14 PM
Oh dear, please don't! :o
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: DaveM on June 03, 2017, 05:57:12 PM
Oh dear, please don't! :o
I presume you read Isaiah 58 before making that response.  So would be very interested to hear your reasons for rejecting Isaiah's advice.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Robbie on June 03, 2017, 08:11:25 PM
I really like that DaveM. It shows that God sees right into our motives regardless of what we appear to do.

This bit is great-
“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
    and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
    and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
    and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
    and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,"
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on June 04, 2017, 08:23:45 AM
If god exists, instead of being the figment of the human imagination, it would appear to get off on the ghastly things some evil people do as it was supposedly responsible for creating human nature, as it doesn't do anything prevent them happening. >:(
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Robbie on June 04, 2017, 11:43:51 AM
Yeah well that is another discussion floo. Good morning by the way!
The Isiah passage DaveM indicated is worth looking at(about fasting).
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: floo on June 04, 2017, 11:46:52 AM
Yeah well that is another discussion floo. Good morning by the way!
The Isiah passage DaveM indicated is worth looking at(about fasting).

I was actually replying to your post, but never mind! ::)
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Robbie on June 04, 2017, 01:09:03 PM
I don't follow how but never mind, life's too short  :D.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Humph Warden Bennett on June 25, 2017, 11:27:21 PM
FTR a Muslim colleague of mine asked me this morning if I could advise of a bus to an East End Mosque, today was the end of the Muslim fast.

Since he was very nasty to me two Xmases ago when I absent mindedly wished him a Happy Christmas, I did not wish him Eid Mubarak.

But I did advise taking the Number 25.
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: SwordOfTheSpirit on June 27, 2017, 04:57:12 PM
Quote from: DaveM
If you want to practice true fasting then simply follow the advice given in Isaiah 58.
Quote from: Floo
Oh dear, please don't! :o
Quote from: DaveM
I presume you read Isaiah 58 before making that response.  So would be very interested to hear your reasons for rejecting Isaiah's advice.
Quote from: Floo
If god exists, instead of being the figment of the human imagination, it would appear to get off on the ghastly things some evil people do as it was supposedly responsible for creating human nature, as it doesn't do anything prevent them happening. >:(
Which part of Isaiah verses 1 - 14 have lead you to that conclusion?
Title: Re: Religious Fasting.
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 27, 2017, 05:03:48 PM
Which part of Isaiah verses 1 - 14 have lead you to that conclusion?
Which part of made up restrictions are you struggling with?