Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on June 21, 2017, 01:01:42 PM
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While I accept that minimum unit pricing can be seen as a regressive tax, even though it isn't necessarily raising the money going to the govt, I struggle to see much else proposed by those who oppose it that will deal with this problem. Given that the indication is that it will have a beneficial impact, bit not be the in any sense a panacea, I would hope that it might be something that was much more cross party in Scotland.
The reduction in youth drinking is a good sign.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40347942
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It is so sad that kids start drinking alcohol at such a young age. I don't think I ever touched the stuff until I was in my 20s, nor did my husband. My parents didn't drink, nor did his. Neither of us have ever been drunk, we do enjoy a glass of sherry, wine, or even a single malt whisky, but in strict moderation.
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Neither of us have ever been drunk
You're missing out on one of life's easier-to-achieve pleasures. we do enjoy a class of sherry, wine, or even a single malt whisky, but in strict moderation.
I'm for moderation in moderation.
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You're missing out on one of life's easier-to-achieve pleasures. I'm for moderation in moderation.
I have no issue with Floo's relative abstemiousness. Too much of the culture of drink is driven by expectation and sad notions of machismo. That mixed with a possible genetic link is a dangerous cocktail.
I have to note though my cynicism and experience of drinking in some very posh areas makes me suspect that some of the discrepancy is that those in the richest areas are often diagnosed with issues seen as less 'chav'.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/drunk/comments/1t4i48/never_trust_a_man_who_doesnt_drink/
As a clincher Agent Orange is a teetotaller.
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If a man (or woman) is drunk and abusive to their partner and kids it makes no difference if the car outside is a new BMW or a knackered old Escort.
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And abuse takes many forms.
I hope that the figures covering the reduction in youth drinking (though I was always partial to the taste of a youth myself) is indicative of less general suspicion of people being teetotal. Being teetotal is something neither to be proud nor ashamed of.
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I never drink if I'm driving the next morning, which is most days, and I get asked why, like it's weird.
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though I was always partial to the taste of a youth myself
A men to that.
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You're missing out on one of life's easier-to-achieve pleasures. I'm for moderation in moderation.
What is pleasurable about getting drunk, and ending up with a hangover or worse?
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What is pleasurable about getting drunk, and ending up with a hangover or worse?
Since you never have been, how would you know it isn't pleasurable? And you don't always end up with a hangover.
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A men to that.
Or even in my case a woman
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Since you never have been, how would you know it isn't pleasurable? And you don't always end up with a hangover.
But if you are drunk you aren't in control of what you are doing, that would be AWFUL! :o I cannot see for the life of me why anyone would think that pleasurable, and never wish to find out.
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But if you are drunk you aren't in control of what you are doing, that would be AWFUL! :o I cannot see for the life of me why anyone would think that pleasurable, and never wish to find out.
I cannot imagine why someone would find parachuting pleasurable. Never going to do it but I would think that stating what it is like for everyone would be very ill informed. Don't get me wrong, I think it is great for you that you rarely drink, though presumably given the effect of alcohol you like in some ways loosing the control you think you have, else why indulge.
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But if you are drunk you aren't in control of what you are doing, that would be AWFUL! :o I cannot see for the life of me why anyone would think that pleasurable, and never wish to find out.
You do find out things about yourself that in the normal course of events you wouldn't. For instance when trying to find somewhere to pee avoid holes in the ground. On the plus side the drunkenness seems to have stopped me from breaking any bones during my rapid plunge into a 4 foot deep hole.
So another protective quality of alcohol, much under-reported I feel.
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I feel sad for anyone who finds pleasure in getting drunk. :(
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I feel sad for anyone who finds pleasure in getting drunk. :(
So anyway, back on subject, what donyou think should be done to deal with the problem of alcohol?
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So anyway, back on subject, what donyou think should be done to deal with the problem of alcohol?
Make it so expensive it can only be an occasional treat.
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So anyway, back on subject, what donyou think should be done to deal with the problem of alcohol?
I think minimum unit pricing is a sensible option it's not ideal but it would perhaps make people think more carefully about their choices.
It's anecdotal so not entirely sure it is true, but it feels to me that alcohol now is relatively much cheaper than when I was younger (in the 70's & 80's).
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Make it so expensive it can only be an occasional treat.
So you think it should be the preserve of the rich.
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Make it so expensive it can only be an occasional treat.
And the knock on effect on the hospitality industry? Jobs, wealth creation?
It's a balancing act if you are too harsh you are initially preventing a lot of people from gaining perfectly acceptable pleasure and secondly, severely impairing an important part of our economy.
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But if you are drunk you aren't in control of what you are doing, that would be AWFUL! :o I cannot see for the life of me why anyone would think that pleasurable, and never wish to find out.
Being drunk doesn't mean being out of control, not if you can hold your booze anyway.
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So you think it should be the preserve of the rich.
Then it might kill all those undeserving rich people off, much to the pleasure of a few on this forum! ;D
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I feel sad for anyone who finds pleasure in getting drunk. :(
Why doesn't that surprise me. I bet you're the life and soul of the party.
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I think minimum unit pricing is a sensible option it's not ideal but it would perhaps make people think more carefully about their choices.
It's anecdotal so not entirely sure it is true, but it feels to me that alcohol now is relatively much cheaper than when I was younger (in the 70's & 80's).
I would agree with that as a feeling but think it is primarily shop bought where the difference occurs.
As an aside, perhaps the ease of purchase, which I think has also changed, in part because of sensible reasons, might be looked at. Off licences used to be less pleasant and buying alcohol on both Scandi countries and Canada when I did it some years ago was much more of a hassle.
I struggle with this because I am by nature a libertarian and maybe it is merely middle class guilt playing on me.
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Then it might kill all those undeserving rich people off, much to the pleasure of a few on this forum! ;D
Well it obviously already does. And as I have suggested I suspect it is underplayed because it is chosen to be as it is 'chavvy' to have that on the death certificate.
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I would agree with that as a feeling but think it is primarily shop bought where the difference occurs.
As an aside, perhaps the ease of purchase, which I think has also changed, in part because of sensible reasons, might be looked at. Off licences used to be less pleasant and buying alcohol on both Scandi countries and Canada when I did it some years ago was much more of a hassle.
I struggle with this because I am by nature a libertarian and maybe it is merely middle class guilt playing on me.
As someone who lives in one of those countries where to sale of alcohol is more restricted, I can wholeheartedly say that it's a fucking pain in the arse. The majority is punished because the few.
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As someone who lives in one of those countries where to sale of alcohol is more restricted, I can wholeheartedly say that it's a fucking pain in the arse. The majority is punished because the few.
Are you 'punished'? And would a more liberal regime be better for society as a whole? Is expense a punishment? And given the effects of alcohol is your punishment worth one small child beaten because its patent found it easy to access alcohol?
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Are you 'punished'? And would a more liberal regime be better for society as a whole? Is expense a punishment? And given the effects of alcohol is your punishment worth one small child beaten because its patent found it easy to access alcohol?
The people who have a problem buy their booze from the local Moderator: content removed who got a van load cheap from Estonia.
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The people who have a problem buy their booze from the localModerator: quoted content removed who got a van load cheap from Estonia.
So you have evidence that the incidence of alcoholism and abuse of others us a constant no matter the regulatory regime?
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It is so sad that kids start drinking alcohol at such a young age. I don't think I ever touched the stuff until I was in my 20s, nor did my husband. My parents didn't drink, nor did his. Neither of us have ever been drunk, we do enjoy a glass of sherry, wine, or even a single malt whisky, but in strict moderation.
The youth binge culture is so far removed from your experience, Floo!
I wish the youth would confine themselves to a decent malt - at least that would limit their consumption of alcohol - but the disgracefully cheap prices of chateau plonk and cat's piss disguised as lager makes consuming as much as poosible, as quickly as possible, easy. Minimum pricing might go some way to ease this situation.
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So you have evidence that the incidence of alcoholism and abuse of others us a constant no matter the regulatory regime?
I wouldn't say none but certainly not as much as some groups would have us believe. People always find a way.
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But if you are drunk you aren't in control of what you are doing, that would be AWFUL! :o I cannot see for the life of me why anyone would think that pleasurable, and never wish to find out.
Possibly because the social situation in which many live, filled with depression and a seemingly endless drudge, leads them to accept alcohol as an answer to temporarily ease their situation.
It doesn't in the long run - but for far too many it's a sort of answer.
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You do find out things about yourself that in the normal course of events you wouldn't. For instance when trying to find somewhere to pee avoid holes in the ground.
Also electrified cattle fences. Not recommended.
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Make it so expensive it can only be an occasional treat.
Won't work.
Those who seek the oblivion of a high which might give them what they think is a solution to their feelings will get the cash to afford it somehow.
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Why doesn't that surprise me. I bet you're the life and soul of the party.
We don't do parties, neither of us enjoy them, only immediate family gatherings.
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As someone who lives in one of those countries where to sale of alcohol is more restricted, I can wholeheartedly say that it's a fucking pain in the arse. The majority is punished because the few.
Shouldn't the Christ-like attitude be to walk with those who have an addiction, rather than selfishly feeling 'punished'?
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Shouldn't the Christ-like attitude be to walk with those who have an addiction, rather than selfishly feeling 'punished'?
I strongly believe that restriction isn't the way because it doesn't deal with the root cause.
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I strongly believe that restriction isn't the way because it doesn't deal with the root cause.
So in what way would making alcohol abundant and cheap help the root cause of addiction?
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So in what way would making alcohol abundant and cheap help the root cause of addiction?
I wouldn't say there should be no restrictions but in my country, for instance, it goes too far. Hell, you can't even by a bottle of wine from a food shop but instead from a state off licence with crappy opening hours. It's unfair on the majority. Instead we should be focusing on other ways to deal with the problem and that starts with educating kids. If you make it into a forbidden fruit then it merely makes it more attractive and the likelihood is people will be more prone to abusing alcohol.
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I wouldn't say there should be no restrictions but in my country, for instance, it goes too far. Hell, you can't even by a bottle of wine from a food shop but instead from a state off licence with crappy opening hours. It's unfair on the majority. Instead we should be focusing on other ways to deal with the problem and that starts with educating kids. If you make it into a forbidden fruit then it merely makes it more attractive and the likelihood is people will be more prone to abusing alcohol.
Do you have figures for that opinion?
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It is so sad that kids start drinking alcohol at such a young age. I don't think I ever touched the stuff until I was in my 20s, nor did my husband. My parents didn't drink, nor did his. Neither of us has ever been drunk, we do enjoy a glass of sherry, wine, or even a single malt whisky, but in strict moderation.
Fuck me... this explains a lot... although what the fuck was you on when you saw the faeries at the bottom of yer paddock? [or whatever it was you sold yer dreams on!!]
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Do you have figures for that opinion?
Figures? No. But Finland dabbled with prohibition after independence and the result wasn't all that good, except in the eyes of puritans. The result even to this day is that it's a kind of forbidden fruit to youngsters which is definitely a cause of alcohol abuse.
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Figures? No. But Finland dabbled with prohibition after independence and the result wasn't all that good, except in the eyes of puritans. The result even to this day is that it's a kind of forbidden fruit to youngsters which is definitely a cause of alcohol abuse.
So surely you need to look at what is the best solution not whinge about being punished?
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So surely you need to look at what is the best solution not whinge about being punished?
The solution isn't mote restrictions. It's education.
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The solution isn't mote restrictions. It's education.
Can you provide evidence for that?
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Can you provide evidence for that?
It's simple logic. If you educate young people concerning alcohol then they're less likely to abuse it. It ain't fucking rocket science!
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It's simple logic. If you educate young people concetning alcohol then they're less likely to abuse it. It ain't fucking rocket science!
Certainly seems to work with sex, so you could well be onto something.
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It's simple logic. If you educate young people concerning alcohol then they're less likely to abuse it. It ain't fucking rocket science!
Bit that isn't your case. You are stating that there shouldn't be more restrictions in the UK but providing no evidence that is the best position.
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Presumably his case is that it's unjust to financially penalise the responsible many for the actions of an irresponsible few.
I once read somewhere that 70% of the adult UK population drinks alcohol. That raw figure obviously includes everybody from the tanked-up and aggressive thugs and vandals in city centres to the old ladies who have a Baileys on Christmas afternoon and every point between. However, there are vastly many more of the latter than the former. So, if education works, the point stands: why screw the sensible majority as a means of getting at a senseless minority?
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Presumably his case is that it's unjust to financially penalise the responsible many for the actions of an irresponsible few.
I once read somewhere that 70% of the adult UK population drinks alcohol. That raw figure obviously includes everybody from the tanked-up and aggressive thugs and vandals in city centres to the old ladies who have a Baileys on Christmas afternoon and every point between. However, there are vastly many more of the latter than the former. So, if education works, the point stands: why screw the sensible majority as a means of getting at a senseless minority?
no, it's a false dichotomy. The answer may be more restrictions, note ad_o agrees with some restriction, and better education.
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Does restriction actually work? Has it ever? Alcohol is already restricted: yet there are problem drinkers, including amongst those who, given their age, are supposed to be restricted already. Throwing still more restrictions at the issue strikes me as a fair example of that saying attributed to Einstein (but never actually traced to him) that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.
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Does restriction actually work? Has it ever? Alcohol is already restricted: yet there are problem drinkers, including amongst those who, given their age, are supposed to be restricted already. Throwing still more restrictions at the issue strikes me as a fair example of that saying attributed to Einstein (but never actually traced to him) that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.
Again this seems simplistic in saying that because something doesn't work absolutely then only extremes are the choices.
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Doesn't seem thst simplistic to me.
Remember that this is an evidence-based argument - we don't need to guess, we can look at the world today and back into the past and see that when something (anything; not just alcohol) is restricted, up to and including the ultimate restriction of supposed total prohibition, it not only doesn't remove the desire for the prohibited thing, it may well increase it and cause a whole host of unintended and unwanted knock-on effects beside. (Organised crime in the Prohibition era being a prime example). Human nature makes it so - nitimur in vetitum.
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Doesn't seem thst simplistic to me.
Remember that this is an evidence-based argument - we don't need to guess, we can look at the world today and back into the past and see that when something (anything; not just alcohol) is restricted, up to and including the ultimate restriction of supposed total prohibition, it not only doesn't remove the desire for the prohibited thing, it may well increase it and cause a whole host of unintended and unwanted knock-on effects beside. (Organised crime in the Prohibition era being a prime example). Human nature makes it so - nitimur in vetitum.
Using terms such as 'it may well increase it' undermines your argument that this is evidence based, and again is falling into the simplistic dichotomy of no restriction vs complete restriction. You are also arguing against a strawman since I have neither proposed total restriction nor stated that it would remove the desire for alcohol.
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Using terms such as 'it may well increase it' undermines your argument that thus us evidence based
No. Whether the desire for the forbidden fruit is decreased, increased or remains the same is amenable to empirical evidence. Prohibition-era USA saw a vast surge in organised crime because people wanted to continue to enjoy a substance subsequently made illegal. Contrariwise, a few years ago Portugal decriminalised all recreational drugs and started treating hard-core addiction as a medical problem to be treated and not a moral failing to be punished. Not only has addiction plummeted, but use of all drugs (whether deemed 'hard' or 'soft') has likewise.
You are also arguing against a strawman since I have neither proposed total restriction nor stated that it would remove the desire for alcohol.
No, but you have said that more restriction on top of the restrictions already in place may be an answer, and I've used examples to show why that stands little chance of working. If the restrictions already in place aren't working, why would more restrictions work and at which particular point would it be deemed reasonable to say: "Let's stop here - we've piled one restriction on top of another and this obviously isn't working"?
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No. Whether the desire for the forbidden fruit is decreased, increased or remains the same is amenable to empirical evidence. Prohibition-era USA saw a vast surge in organised crime because people wanted to continue to enjoy a substance subsequently made illegal. Contrariwise, a few years ago Portugal decriminalised all recreational drugs and started treating hard-core addiction as a medical problem to be treated and not a moral failing to be punished. Not only has addiction plummeted, but use of all drugs (whether deemed 'hard' or 'soft') has likewise.
I haven't denied it is amenable to empirical evidence but a statement that 'it may well increase it' isn't emorirical evidence p, it is simply assertion. Again you seem to want to use the strawman about what I am discussing, and oddly editing out my comment that it was a strawman.
And absolutely I agree about Portugal but decriminalisation is not a removal of all restrictions. The supply of alcohol in this country is vastly less restricted than drugs are in Portugal by them simply being decriminalised and yet we still have problems. The supply of alcohol in this country is less restricted than previously and still there had been an increase, followed by what may be a decrease in youth drinking. Suggesting that there are only the two extremes is simplistic.
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So you think it should be the preserve of the rich.
People will go back to making it n the bath 🍹😜
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I don't mind being merry or a bit drunk, provided I can walk in a straightish line 😁
What I try and avoid is what a lot of us did when younger, whirly pit syndrome.
Nothing worse 😉
Cheers! 🍷
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What is pleasurable about getting drunk, and ending up with a hangover or worse?
I'm one of the fortunate ones Floo, I don't get hangovers, I never sober up!!!! ;)
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I don't mind being merry or a bit drunk, provided I can walk in a straightish line 😁
What I try and avoid is what a lot of us did when younger, whirly pit syndrome.
Nothing worse 😉
Cheers! 🍷
:D :D I remember trying very hard to walk straight & not look drunk, also speak very slowly and clearly.
Whirly pit syndrome! Don't remind me.
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The people who have a problem buy their booze from the local Moderator: content removed who got a van load cheap from Estonia.
Who is the "Moderator: content removed" (funny name,obviously a foreigner), and does he come to the UK?
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:D :D I remember trying very hard to walk straight & not look drunk, also speak very slowly and clearly.
Whirly pit syndrome! Don't remind me.
I recall once, whilst in the chippy on the way home after a few shandies, I couldn't quite understand that despite me standing perfectly still, the floor persisted in jumping up and smacking me in the face! >:(
They wouldn't serve me either! :(
I ended up getting a kebab further down the road. They didn't care who they served. ;D
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I ended up getting a kebab further down the road. They didn't care who they served. ;D
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I'm pretty sure I used to go there too. Or somewhere very like it ;)
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Did you lose your kebab on the walk home?
Seeing carrots (liquorice allsorts once!) swimming around in the bottom of the pan is something I remember.
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Did you lose your kebab on the walk home?
No. It seems that it turned out to be a handy pillow!
Well that's why I think I woke up with it under my face!