Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rhiannon on June 25, 2017, 01:04:42 PM

Title: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Rhiannon on June 25, 2017, 01:04:42 PM
Powerful short film here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40355472/gay-in-northern-ireland-he-spat-in-my-face
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: floo on June 25, 2017, 02:25:47 PM
Powerful short film here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40355472/gay-in-northern-ireland-he-spat-in-my-face

Northern Ireland is a DISGRACE where anti-gay bigotry is concerned. >:( TM is bringing shame on the whole of the UK by trying to form an alliance with the DUP!  :o
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 02:32:26 PM
I sincerely and whole-heartedly apologise in advance for this disgraceful statement, but I'm afraid I can't help hearing Catherine Tate in all this  :-[

https://youtu.be/cOESpIz8Mjg
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 02:33:01 PM
Northern Ireland is a DISGRACE where anti-gay bigotry is concerned. >:( TM is bringing shame on the whole of the UK by trying to form an alliance with the DUP!  :o
Back on track: couldn't possibly agree more.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: floo on June 25, 2017, 02:43:02 PM
I just don't get why some people are so vile about gays. What is wrong with having a relationship with someone of the same sex?

Some use the Bible as an excuse for their nastiness.  If god, assuming it exists, is so against homosexual relationships why isn't it one of the THOU SHALT NOTS?
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 02:54:03 PM
I just don't get why some people are so vile about gays. What is wrong with having a relationship with someone of the same sex?
Short version? computer God says no.

Don't look for a deeper explanation than that. There isn't one. That's all it comes down to with these types, in the end. God says this, God says that, God says the other, yadda yadda yadda. That's about it, really. Say 'God says it' and for those who respect bullshit, that's the end of the conversation.

Normal, sane people raise pertinent objections to this, but because even today we labour in societies where respect for irrationality is considered a liberal, humane virtue; the irrational and illiberal and even insane still have the right to say their say.

We have a moral duty with these, I suppose. I will defend that to the last ditch. Reluctantly, as I despise superstition and irrationalism. But for me, the moral duty comes in listening to, not agreeing with. I am sorry for this, as I don't like what is commonly called religion which in practice means that I don't like what are commonly called religious people. I think that in a great many cases their pretence at what we call thinking is clownish and their conclusions ridiculously, utterly absurd to the nth degree, and often at best patronising and at worst downright poisonous whenever it comes to things like being gay. But there it is, and so be it.

Quote
Some use the Bible as an excuse for their nastiness.  If god, assuming it exists, is so against homosexual relationships why isn't it one of the THOU SHALT NOTS?
Well ... yes.

There's the old gag about there being hundreds if not thousands of commandments and prohibitions in the OT against heterosexuals and relatively speaking a handful against homosexuals, suggesting that there's nothing wrong with heterosexuals except that they obviously need more supervision  :D
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Rhiannon on June 25, 2017, 03:36:17 PM
I think religion is an excuse for prejudice rather than its cause. It's telling when people opt to focus on the few anti gay sentiments in the Bible rather than focus on its overwhelming message of love. They prefer a version of religion that enables them to disguise their inadequacies through feeling superior - to the divorced, to gays, to the unsaved, to whoever.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Walter on June 25, 2017, 03:41:12 PM
I sincerely and whole-heartedly apologise in advance for this disgraceful statement, but I'm afraid I can't help hearing Catherine Tate in all this  :-[

https://youtu.be/cOESpIz8Mjg
Shaker, how very dare you?
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 03:41:43 PM
I think religion is an excuse for prejudice rather than its cause.

Pick a prejudice. Any prejudice.

(1) Would it have existed without religion;

or

(2) Could it have existed anyway, but not been fed to its current heights without religion?
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 03:42:10 PM
Shaker, how very dare you?
What of it?
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Bubbles on June 25, 2017, 03:44:09 PM
Pick a prejudice. Any prejudice.

(1) Would it have existed without religion;

or

(2) Could it have existed anyway, but not been fed to its current heights without religion?

Yes it could, atheists have no problem being prejudiced without religion.

Nationalist ideologies can manage to be all sorts of prejudice without religion.

Communist countries where religion was suppressed isn't well known for their open mindedness.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 03:44:43 PM
Yes it could, atheists have no problem being prejudiced without religion.
About?
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Bubbles on June 25, 2017, 03:46:35 PM
About?

I edited, after you posted
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
See (2).
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Bubbles on June 25, 2017, 03:49:50 PM
Where people seem to be able to express different unrestricted POV seem to work best on combatting prejudice.

It's not taking away religion, it's about opening minds and increasing empathy.

Atheists are not necessarily open minded or prepared to have empathy.

It varies from person to person.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: floo on June 25, 2017, 03:58:20 PM
Where people seem to be able to express different unrestricted POV seem to work best on combatting prejudice.

It's not taking away religion, it's about opening minds and increasing empathy.

Atheists are not necessarily open minded or prepared to have empathy.

It varies from person to person.

Of course not every anti-gay bigot is religious. Being anti-gay should be seen as despicable as being racist.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Walter on June 25, 2017, 04:07:23 PM
Where people seem to be able to express different unrestricted POV seem to work best on combatting prejudice.

It's not taking away religion, it's about opening minds and increasing empathy.

Atheists are not necessarily open minded or prepared to have empathy.

It varies from person to person.
Rose , I find it very difficult to empathise with those who show no empathy.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Rhiannon on June 25, 2017, 04:10:38 PM
Pick a prejudice. Any prejudice.

(1) Would it have existed without religion;

or

(2) Could it have existed anyway, but not been fed to its current heights without religion?

Who knows?
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 04:11:13 PM
Rose , I find it very difficult to empathise with those who show no empathy.
Personally - even though I take a lot of religious/spiritual teachings on board without the rest of the baggage I can't believe in - I don't even try. I don't think it's worth it, in the end.

There's a current discussion about IS and what the West can do. What I said here is that I'm no keyboard general. Truthfully, as I'm not.

What I didn't say - which is what I actually think - is that a rabid dog can't be reasoned with, argued with, cajoled, bought, promised or pleaded with, but shot.

In other words: the Colonel Kurtz ploy:

http://tinyurl.com/yaxrfmqr
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 04:12:07 PM
Who knows?
Pretty much why I asked  ;)
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Rhiannon on June 25, 2017, 04:14:28 PM
Personally - even though I take a lot of religious/spiritual teachings on board without the rest of the baggage I can't believe in - I don't even try. I don't think it's worth it, in the end.

Sometimes, just sometimes, I come across someone who is just unable to reason their way around prejudice. I can feel sympathy there. Generally though, most believers are capable of understanding prejudice and rejecting it on an intellectual level. Which explains volumes about why they don't.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Walter on June 25, 2017, 04:17:12 PM
What of it?
when my dad was in hospital in the 1960s he said they had a rectal thermometer in the form of a daffodil .
Every springtime our garden  had a lovely display of thermometers!
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 04:18:20 PM
when my dad was in hospital in the 1960s he said they had a rectal thermometer in the form of a daffodil .
Every springtime our garden  had a lovely display of thermometers!
Your dad wasn't Wilfred Hyde-White was he?
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Walter on June 25, 2017, 04:23:48 PM
Your dad wasn't Wilfred Hyde-White was he?
W H-W was the spitting image of my granddad though, hmmm?
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Shaker on June 25, 2017, 04:49:55 PM
If nothing else this thread - having mentioned IS - gives me the opportunity to replay the greatest film quotation of modern times: https://youtu.be/efHCdKb5UWc
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Robbie on June 25, 2017, 05:02:41 PM
Your dad wasn't Wilfred Hyde-White was he?

Or Hattie Jacques in drag?

Being gay in NI could be liked to going loco down in Acapulco.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Humph Warden Bennett on June 25, 2017, 09:06:22 PM
Or Hattie Jacques in drag?

Being gay in NI could be liked to going loco down in Acapulco.

I get the impression that NI is a gloomy place full stop.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 25, 2017, 09:44:04 PM
I get the impression that NI is a gloomy place full stop.
Some of the funniest times of my life have been in NI. Apart from the bombs, and guns, and homophobia, and lack of women's rights, it is intensely fabulous at times.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Aruntraveller on June 25, 2017, 09:48:25 PM
Some of the funniest times of my life have been in NI. Apart from the bombs, and guns, and homophobia, and lack of women's rights, it is intensely fabulous at times.

Yes - I would agree. We went there for the first time 2 years ago for a family christening (Catholic - does that make a difference?) and it was really rather lovely. Beautiful scenery, friendly folk, somewhat of a surplus of alcohol  :-[ - weird accent though  ;)
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: Humph Warden Bennett on June 25, 2017, 10:01:22 PM
Yes - I would agree. We went there for the first time 2 years ago for a family christening (Catholic - does that make a difference?) and it was really rather lovely. Beautiful scenery, friendly folk, somewhat of a surplus of alcohol  :-[ - weird accent though  ;)

That is interesting, because everybody that  I know who has been there has told me never to visit. Oh well obviously they met the wrong people.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: floo on June 26, 2017, 11:29:48 AM
I never fancied visiting NI. We have been to the South a couple of times where we found the natives extremely friendly. :) It was after those visits I decided to apply for Irish nationality, which I was entitled to do having had an Irish grandparent. I now have dual British and Irish nationality.
Title: Re: Gay in Northern Ireland
Post by: john on June 26, 2017, 02:09:31 PM
I found out about Ireland when I went there to work for a couple of weeks as a motorcycle instructor/tour guide about 15 years ago. Been back many times since. Once on a 3 week tour of the whole coast line with the wife.

I found Northern Ireland to be a scary and unpleasant/unwelcoming place. On one occasion the wife and I wandering around the seaside town of Carrickfergus just north of Belfast went into a pub with a huge Union Jack flag draped over it's front, we sat down at a corner table with a drink at a corner table and the barman came over with a cloth "to clean the table" leaning over speaking quietly out of the corner of his mouth he said, "just a friendly warning like but I wouldn't stay here if I were you". We didn't. Londonderry is the scariest place I've ever been, totally intimidating.

Southern Ireland on the other hand totally different; the first time I ever went to Ireland I had to meet a man in a bar in Limerick (not wanting to be late I got there very early), it was one of those large marvellous pubs you get so many of in Ireland, stained glass windows, crystal chandeliers, large brass foot rail at the bar. I ordered a pint and stood at the end of the bar. Within seconds a rather scruffy farmer type detached himself from a nearby group and came up to me and speaking in a very broad accent said, "your not from round here are you". No I'm from England just over for work. "Well don't stand here by yourself come and talk to us". I thought he was trying to scrounge a drink or something but no he insisted on paying for mine and was just being friendly. Typical of the attitude I found all over the south where God knows they have every reason to hate the English unlike the north where they want to be English (allegedly).

Favourite place/top tip to visit.... Dingle where it seems every other building is a pub and has live music.... I could live there.