Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Rhiannon on July 11, 2017, 07:10:23 PM
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Ok, so I think in all the stuff we debate on here it's easy to lose sight of the fact that Christianity does have good stuff for believer and non believer alike. I guess I thought a thread as a reminder might be an idea.
I'll start with the fact that the CofE always has some poor bugger in a dog collar serving his or her local community, however run down, dangerous, depressing and demoralising it might be. I do find that good.
Also... Gregorian chant. Obviously.
And cloisters. Aren't they beautiful?
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Richard Coles
The Pieta
Gonnagle
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Ooh yes, two lovely Christian gentlemen.
The Iona Community.
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The Rule of St. Benedict.
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Ooh yes, two lovely Christian gentlemen. The Iona Community.
Ah, the Iona Community.....very special fellowship, rain, spirituality, rain, laughter, rain, easy conversation, rain - and midgie infested stovies! Oh, and Camas - how could I have missed out Camas? It was a barn when we first aquired it. That was basically it for about twenty years before health and safety threw a collective wobbly. I preferrred the barn.
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Desmond Tutu
Richard Holloway
Gloucester cathedral
(plenty of others besides, but that has a special place in my affections)
Tudor polyphony
Orthodox choral music
Cliff Richard I'm sure I can think of more.
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The CofE, cultural background to British culture, is far better than some, probably most, of the alternatives.
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The CofE, cultural background to British culture, is far better than some, probably most, of the alternatives.
Well, not really, not if you know your history - that rather relies on cherry-picking the nice bits and ignoring the not very nice bits.
But lest I derail: Christmas carols
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The CofE, cultural background to British culture, is far better than some, probably most, of the alternatives.
Er.....English culture, not British.
The Scots went their own way for the most part as far as Episcopalianism goes.
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Beethoven's Missa solemnis
York minster
Herbert Howells's sacred music
Stanley Spencer's art
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The church at St Just-In-Roseland.
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Dali's Christ of St John of the Cross.
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Ely cathedral
Langley chapel
The Authorized Version
The 1662 BCP
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My old parish priest - shout out for Father David.
And my mate Sara.
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Part One of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress
Vaughan Williams's opera of the preceding
Coverdale's Psalter
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Dali's Christ of St John of the Cross.
It's a stunning work. It's leaving the room dedicated to it at the magnificently refurbished Kelvingrove to go south to join a major Dali exhibition in a couple of months time. I have a reproduction in my hall. https://www.dalipaintings.com/christ-of-saint-john-of-the-cross.jsp
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Well, not really, not if you know your history - that rather relies on cherry-picking the nice bits and ignoring the not very nice bits.
But lest I derail: Christmas carols
I'm not referring to history, I just mean that in the current climate, the Cof E takes first place in the an if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it category!
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Matisse's Chapelle du Rosaire de Vence
Vaughan Williams's Mass in G minor
Arvo Pärt's music
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It's a stunning work. It's leaving the room dedicated to it at the magnificently refurbished Kelvingrove to go south to join a major Dali exhibition in a couple of months time. I have a reproduction in my hall. https://www.dalipaintings.com/christ-of-saint-john-of-the-cross.jsp
I saw it on its travels once at the Seeing Salvation exhibition at the National.
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Brahms's German Requiem
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Derail! :D
Indeed. And not exactly in the spirit of the thread either. ;)
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Indeed. And not exactly in the spirit of the thread either. ;)
True - I shall therefore remove it forthwith (if not sooner).
Which I've done.
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Aw - we were only kidding!
I know: but you were correct anyway. :)
On topic - I'd add that most Christians I've ever come across are invariably thoughtful and generous people.
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The Rule of St. Benedict.
Patron saint of servants who break the property of their masters and spelunkers
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Poussin's Sacraments at the Nat Gallery in Edinburgh
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The gentle loving forgiveness and understanding that my mother has always shown.
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The Lindisfarne Gospels
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Was at a funeral today in a standard mid late 60s church, and there was a rather lovely set of stations of the cross.
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Oh that reminds me of the gorgeous house of retreat at Pleshey, associated with the mystic Evelyne Underhill.
Sad to hear that, NS.
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Oh that reminds me of the gorgeous house of retreat at Pleshey, associated with the mystic Evelyne Underhill.
Sad to hear that, NS.
Really not an issue, was there to be a support for a friend. Today's reading which was not chosen deliberately was a thing though, don't eat the sciatic nerve!!!
On topic - J S Bach, and the discipline he followed .
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Hildegard of Bingen.
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As a caveat though, much of the art, action and intention I might choose ad Christian isn't produced in a vacuum. I see the same beauty in Gonnagle as Rumi as Pele as .... While I think the word spiritual a useless leaking bucket, I end up posting on this thread about beauty 'for me', just as usrlrdsy, just as leaking.
Take away Christianity and we are left with what? It is not the source of the beauty not even the trigger. And the same applies to the evil committed in its name and the ugliness. Rather it is what some beauty exists in the name of...
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The ancient liturgies, especially the hours.
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I know: but you were correct anyway. :)
On topic - I'd add that most Christians I've ever come across are invariably thoughtful and generous people.
I wish that I could say the same - my father was Christian and a bigger bastard it would be hard to find!
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There are some very decent moderate Christians, like my own three girls, but there are some very nasty people claiming to be Christians who make the much maligned Satan look like a saint.
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Bach's Magnificat.
Many, many other pieces of music inspired by the Church.
The kindness of Christians I have known - although I'm not altogether convinced they wouldn't have been kind anyway.
The cool, calm of Churches.
Southwell Minster.
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Bach's Magnificat.
Many, many other pieces of music inspired by the Church.
The kindness of Christians I have known - although I'm not altogether convinced they wouldn't have been kind anyway.
The cool, calm of Churches.
Southwell Minster.
I agree, religion doesn't usually change someone's personality, in my experience.
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The Quakers.
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Rhi,
Oh that reminds me of the gorgeous house of retreat at Pleshey, associated with the mystic Evelyne Underhill.
Ridden past it many times on my bike. Very nice.
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NS,
As a caveat though, much of the art, action and intention I might choose ad Christian isn't produced in a vacuum. I see the same beauty in Gonnagle as Rumi as Pele as .... While I think the word spiritual a useless leaking bucket, I end up posting on this thread about beauty 'for me', just as usrlrdsy, just as leaking.
Take away Christianity and we are left with what? It is not the source of the beauty not even the trigger. And the same applies to the evil committed in its name and the ugliness. Rather it is what some beauty exists in the name of...
Yup. I remember someone asking where we'd be without the great art and architecture that's "Christian" as if Wren and Pergolesi and the rest would have been cabbage farmers instead. The answer I'd have thought would be that we'd have different buildings, paintings, music etc rather than none.
PS A lot of paintings of saints are awful dull too by the way ;)
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I agree. But this isn't just about Christian art, music and architecture.
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Rhi,
Ridden past it many times on my bike. Very nice.
The atmosphere inside is one of complete calm. In the little church, too. It has a set of the Stations of the Cross as NS mentioned, starting outside IIRC.
Incidentally, having been discussing the Order of the Golden Dawn elsewhere, Underhill was rumoured to be a member.
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I think the social aspects of belonging to an organization are important. There are many people who, as part of their individual churches, find a meaning which is suitable for them.
Secondly, I think that for some people the comfort that they find from their particular brand of Christianity is very important to them.
I also find that it can be very refreshing to meet Christians who are not dogmatic, who do not try to push their brand of Christianity down your throat, who are caring and pleasant human beings and who have found expression for their particular slant of Christianity within their particular church.
I also think that many of the older church buildings in particular are quite awe inspiring and fascinating, and are part of my cultural heritage.
Sorry, Can't agree about Richard Coles though. :)
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Some of the mystics used to blow my mind, especially of course, Meister Eckhart who is like a Christian version of Rumi and Zen, combined.
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Some of the mystics used to blow my mind, especially of course, Meister Eckhart who is like a Christian version of Rumi and Zen, combined.
Have they ceased to blow your mind, wiggi?
BTW, I agree with most of the suggestions made by Shaker, Rhiannon, NS and bluehillside, especially the musical ones.
And I'd have to reiterate Richard Holloway - principally because he strikes me as a fine human being and writer, (but also because I know it will wind up Vlad).
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Bach's Magnificat.
His son CPE wrote a very fine one, too
Southwell Minster.
Had a very fine choir when I heard them decades ago.
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Ely cathedral
Langley chapel
The Authorized Version
The 1662 BCP
Didn't you also have a soft spot for 'Revelations of Divine Love' by St J of N?
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I'd have to reiterate Richard Holloway - principally because he strikes me as a fine human being and writer
Absolutely. His autobiography, Leaving Alexandria, which I read recently, is one of the most delightful memoirs I've had the pleasure of reading.
(but also because I know it will wind up Vlad).
Always sufficient motivation for anything, surely.
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Didn't you also have a soft spot for 'Revelations of Divine Love' by St J of N?
Yes! Well remembered that man :)
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Part One of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress
Vaughan Williams's opera of the preceding
Not to mention his 5th Symphony, partly inspired by the same.
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Oooh.
Peter Owen Jones. Yes.
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Not to mention his 5th Symphony, partly inspired by the same.
Read my mind again ... ;)
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Oooh.
Peter Owen Jones. Yes.
Ah - how could I have forgotten. (Though - maybe it's just me - he does seem to dip a toe into pantheism at times ...).
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Absolutely. His autobiography, Leaving Alexandria, which I read recently, is one of the most delightful memoirs I've had the pleasure of reading.
My feelings exactly.
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Ah - how could I have forgotten. (Though - maybe it's just me - he does seem to dip a toe into pantheism at times ...).
The man identifies as a Christian, then the man's Christian AFAIC. :)
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The man identifies as a Christian, then the man's Christian AFAIC. :)
*sniff* All right fancy britches :D
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Absolutely. His autobiography, Leaving Alexandria, which I read recently, is one of the most delightful memoirs I've had the pleasure of reading.
Always sufficient motivation for anything, surely.
And very honest.
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And very honest.
Although I have heard of those who question his honesty in remaining in and climbing up the church hierarchy while in a state of unbelief.
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Absolutely. His autobiography, Leaving Alexandria, which I read recently, is one of the most delightful memoirs I've had the pleasure of reading.
You would enjoy the bit where he does a Palpatine, gets into highest office and then stiffs the church in a way that gives succour to the New Atheists.
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Ah - how could I have forgotten. (Though - maybe it's just me - he does seem to dip a toe into pantheism at times ...).
Well they say even the hardest arsed atheist has dipped his toe in pantheism.
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Well they say even the hardest arsed atheist has dipped his toe in pantheism.
I've never heard anyone say that.
Though that's true of practically everything you come out with.
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Although I have heard of those who question his honesty in remaining in and climbing up the church hierarchy while in a state of unbelief.
So which bits about his doubts do you think he was lying about?
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Well they say even the hardest arsed atheist has dipped his toe in pantheism.
Do they? Who is they? Because I haven't met they?
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Well they say even the hardest arsed atheist has dipped his toe in pantheism.
Not me. Don't even dip my toe in the North Sea. Don't trust it. Same goes for pantheism.
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Well they say even the hardest arsed atheist has dipped his toe in pantheism.
And there we were having a really interesting chat about all the good that Christianity has to offer...
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You can always rely on Vlad to pull a polished turd out of his hat at any inappropriate moment.
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My favourite church at Kilpeck with its wonderful carvings http://www.sheelanagig.org/wordpress/kilpeck/
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My favourite church at Kilpeck with its wonderful carvings http://www.sheelanagig.org/wordpress/kilpeck/
We've got a small village church here, the wind organ outshines the church, it's capable of really doing justice to Widor's 5th.
ippy
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So which bits about his doubts do you think he was lying about?
You what?
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You what?
Which bits about Holloway's doubts do you think he was lying about and when?
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Which bits about Holloway's doubts do you think he was lying about and when?
No, still not getting it.
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No, still not getting it.
no idea how I can make it clearer. So sorry, your incomprehension has stopped this part is the discussion.
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HOPE & TRUTH. to mention two good things about Christianityl
But it is optional in that we as individual's decide what we accept as truth.
We also decide what is good and bad.
But, I wonder why people are named rather than things about Christianity itself?
Christ is the real reason we have what people refer to as Christianity.
But the truth is Christians are Jews because the Church has not split but is a continuation of the promises of God to mankind.
So if we are to discuss what is good about Christianity then Christ and God have to be the central figures for this and of course the power of Gods Spirit in mankind.
Does anyone feel able to discuss the reality of good in Christ?
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HOPE & TRUTH. to mention two good things about Christianityl
But it is optional in that we as individual's decide what we accept as truth.
We also decide what is good and bad.
But, I wonder why people are named rather than things about Christianity itself?
Christ is the real reason we have what people refer to as Christianity.
But the truth is Christians are Jews because the Church has not split but is a continuation of the promises of God to mankind.
So if we are to discuss what is good about Christianity then Christ and God have to be the central figures for this and of course the power of Gods Spirit in mankind.
Does anyone feel able to discuss the reality of good in Christ?
This thread is about real things not flights of unproven fantasy like Jesus Christ and the God of the Christians for neither of which is there one iota of proof - hence they are MATTERS OF FAITH NOT FACT" - when are you going to get that through your skull and into your head!
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As far as Christian authors go, leaving aside specific theology stuff, I'd go for Corrie Ten Boom's autobiography trilogy. And I can't get past Adrian Plass, coming to the faith through various struggles with mental health and careeer, able to bring me to tears of laughter and tears of empathy in the same chapter. His (slightly) tounge-in-cheek "Sacred Diary" series is a well thumbed source of joy - and theology when you're not looking for it. He manages to show a mirror to the church, and show where we are really getting it wrong. One of my many favourite quotes of his is "Why do I follow Jesus?" "Because He's not as straight laced, boring and judgemental as some who clain to know Him."
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Sassy says about the 'good within Christ'. Setting aside the 'Christ' thing, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the Jesus in the Gospels said and did some good and compassionate things.
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Sassy says about the 'good within Christ'. Setting aside the 'Christ' thing, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the Jesus in the Gospels said and did some good and compassionate things.
... sometimes. But then the rest has to be accounted for.
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Sassy says about the 'good within Christ'. Setting aside the 'Christ' thing, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the Jesus in the Gospels said and did some good and compassionate things.
"The Jesus of the Gospels" is one of the "matters of faith not fact" that I was referring to.
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"The Jesus of the Gospels" is one of the "matters of faith not fact" that I was referring to.
It may be a matter of faith to "feed the hungry, heal the sick, and clothe the naked" as Jesus is supposed to have said. However, I'd rather say that this was a matter of practical compassion. But I'll grant you that the line "inasmuch as you have done this to the least of my brethren, you have done it unto me" - is certainly a matter of faith.
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Sassy says about the 'good within Christ'. Setting aside the 'Christ' thing, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the Jesus in the Gospels said and did some good and compassionate things.
If of course anything he is supposed to have said and done is factual.
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If of course anything he is supposed to have said and done is factual.
I think that's kind of irrelevant in this context. 'Jesus' is said to have come up with some not so good stuff too. But some of the stuff that he 'said' is pretty cool by anyone's standards. And as non- Christians we don't have to take the bad as well as the good, nor try to make the contradictory messages fit. We are free to appreciate the good things that 'he said', factually or otherwise, and also appreciate the acts of people through the ages that have been inspired by them.
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I think that's kind of irrelevant in this context. 'Jesus' is said to have come up with some not so good stuff too. But some of the stuff that he 'said' is pretty cool by anyone's standards. And as non- Christians we don't have to take the bad as well as the good, nor try to make the contradictory messages fit. We are free to appreciate the good things that 'he said', factually or otherwise, and also appreciate the acts of people through the ages that have been inspired by them.
Why isn't it relevant, words could have been put into the guy's mouth by the gospel writers. Anyway I don't see how it is possible for even those who knew Jesus to have been able to quote him word for word years later after his death. I very much doubt they wrote it down when he was actually supposed to have said those things.
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Why isn't it relevant, words could have been put into the guy's mouth by the gospel writers. Anyway I don't see how it is possible for even those who knew Jesus to have been able to quote him word for word years later after his death. I very much doubt they wrote it down when he was actually supposed to have said those things.
Because the question posed by Rhiannon isn't about whether Jesus said them but whether any of them are good.
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It's the old idea that somebody said them or wrote them, it doesn't matter who. But this is a car-crash for orthodox Christianity, I suppose.
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Because the question posed by Rhiannon isn't about whether Jesus said them but whether any of them are good.
Fair enough.
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This thread is about real things not flights of unproven fantasy like Jesus Christ and the God of the Christians for neither of which is there one iota of proof - hence they are MATTERS OF FAITH NOT FACT" - when are you going to get that through your skull and into your head!
What would you know about fantasy or Jesus Christ for that matter? Glass windows and stones come to mind when some who is a pagan makes such statements. Could we not have the perfect example of someone believing in unproven fantasy when examining the beliefs you hold as a pagan. At least Jesus Christ was real.... Foot and mouth come to mind. :o
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What would you know about fantasy or Jesus Christ for that matter? Glass windows and stones come to mind when some who is a pagan makes such statements. Could we not have the perfect example of someone believing in unproven fantasy when examining the beliefs you hold as a pagan. At least Jesus Christ was real.... Foot and mouth come to mind. :o
There are none so deaf as those who refuse to listen - or, in this case, none so blind as those who will not see.
PLEASE Sassy, try, just for once, to read what is written.
I have never, ever, claimed that the Gods in which I believe are proven to be real - I have stated on more than one occasion that they are matters of faith and not of fact!
I have also stated that I was brought up in my father's faith, High Church Anglican Christian, I grew to see that fallacies that were being stated as proven fact and left Christainity for a belief sysstem that adfmitted that it was just that, faith and belief!
Jesus is not now and never was real as far as any reliable proof can show. He is as much a matter of belief as are my Gods.
You are just far too brainwashed to see it!
A loving God who created AIDS and Cancer and tuberculosis and diabetes and demantia? Lovinhg? I think not!
But you will never see the bad becasue of your brainwashed state.
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What would you know about fantasy or Jesus Christ for that matter? Glass windows and stones come to mind when some who is a pagan makes such statements. Could we not have the perfect example of someone believing in unproven fantasy when examining the beliefs you hold as a pagan. At least Jesus Christ was real.... Foot and mouth come to mind. :o
I think you mean foot in mouth, not the disease! ::) Jesus might have existed but you cannot prove anything attributed to Jesus was true.
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Another wee quote from Adrian Plass, musing on the encounter between Jesus and the first Irish Jew in history (OK, Adrian didn't write that bit, but, hey, Nick O'demus - can you blame me?) From his excellent "Bacon Sandwiches and Salvation" (For the uneducated, everybody KNOWS Jesus only spoke Jacobean English....) "What Jesus did NOT say on that famous midnight encounter... "Verily, verily I say unto thee; No man may enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is a bigoted, narrow minded git" " Dere's theology dere.....
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Moderator Some posts have been removed from this thread as they were off topic and amounted merely to personal sniping.
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The Sally Army.
Christian Aid.
The nursing profession, invented by Christians.
The ending of slavery.
Democracy, which grew up in, and is still largely confined to, historically Christian countries.
People like Martin Luther King, Florence Nightingale, William Wilberforce, William and Catherine Booth, Lord Shaftsbury,and the Wesleys.
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Good!
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The Sally Army.
Highly questionable to say the very least, given their aims and attitudes, many of which I find repugnant.
The nursing profession, invented by Christians.
No nursing profession before Christianity came along?
The ending of slavery.
Slavery fully supported and endorsed by some other Christians claiming Biblical support?
Democracy, which grew up in, and is still largely confined to, historically Christian countries.
A Greek word for a Greek concept long before Christianity came on the scene.
People like Martin Luther King
Colossal hypocrite. A great man in many ways who changed the world hugely for the better, without whom the world of today would be immeasurably the poorer.
On a personal level, still a massive, colossal, humungous hypocrite. A Reverend up to the clockweights in just about every woman black or white who could trip him up and be underneath him before he hit the ground.
I'm not judging him for that - I'm exactly the same. I'm criticising him for being a hypocrite for adhering to a belief system which lays down that this is wrong.
Florence Nightingale
A believer but a highly unorthodox one.
William Wilberforce, William and Catherine Booth, Lord Shaftsbury,and the Wesleys.
I will give you those as examples of self-proclaimed Christians. Nevertheless; the point stands.
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Modern, representative democracy arose in Christian countries.
Martin Luther King was certainly flawed, but "collossal hypocrite" is a bit strong.
Flo Nightingale may have been unorthodox - I don't know - but she claimed ot be a Christian.
No, no nursing profession before Christianity. The first nurses were monks and nuns, and modern, secular nursing was invented by Flo Nightingale and other Christian pioneers.
What is questionable about the Sally Army?
Yes, Christians owned slaves, as did others, but it was overwhelmingly Christians who fought to rid the world of it.
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History of nursing highlights here.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nursing
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Modern, representative democracy arose in Christian countries.
Correlation/causation.
Martin Luther King was certainly flawed, but "collossal hypocrite" is a bit strong.
I don't think so.
Remember: I'm not criticising or judging him for his sex life. Provided it doesn't involve minors or lack of informed consent, I don't. Adults do whatever adults want to do and that's fine by me. I'm criticising him for hypocrisy - for a public show of adherence to a certain set of moral standards which he eagerly flouted with some considerable vigour in private life.
Flo Nightingale may have been unorthodox - I don't know - but she claimed ot be a Christian.
I won't head over the hills in search of Godwin's Law, but a claim amounts to nothing.
No, no nursing profession before Christianity.
That one needs evidence.
The first nurses were monks and nuns
The first?
What is questionable about the Sally Army?
Religious fundamentalism, homophobia ...
Yes, Christians owned slaves
So doesn't that in and of itself demolish your argument?
If Christians owned slaves and justified slavery (they did) ... why?
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... it was overwhelmingly Christians who fought to rid the world of it.
True.
But it is just as true that it was overwhelmingly Christians who fought to keep slavery. Don't forget the USA even fought a civil war over the issue - are you somehow claiming that the Union North was Christian and the Confederate South wasn't.
The reality is that those fighting tooth and nail to abolish slavery and those fighting tooth and nail to keep slavery were overwhelmingly Christian on both sides for the obvious reason that the UK in the late 1700s and early 1800s and the USA in the mid 1800s were overwhelmingly Christian countries.
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Modern, representative democracy arose in Christian countries.
That is a pretty weak one, given that most Christian countries steadfastly failed to adopt democracy for perhaps 1500 or more years.
The reality is that democracy as a basic concept was well embedded in pre-Christian societies, most notably Greek and Roman and was eradicated on the arrival of Christianity.
Christian societies were very late comers to democracy, and the rise of democracy in traditionally Christian countries is almost exclusively associated with a diminution of the power of Christianity in those countries.
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... it is just as true that it was overwhelmingly Christians who fought to keep slavery. Don't forget the USA even fought a civil war over the issue - are you somehow claiming that the Union North was Christian and the Confederate South wasn't.
The reality is that those fighting tooth and nail to abolish slavery and those fighting tooth and nail to keep slavery were overwhelmingly Christian on both sides
http://tinyurl.com/ya6efkcz
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http://tinyurl.com/ya6efkcz
Indeed - the spat over slavery in the UK and USA was blue on blue so to speak - in other words Christian fighting Christian, and indeed both sides justifying their position by reference to their interpretation of Christianity.
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Probably they weren't true Christians, though ;)
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Sometimes the somewhat archaic structure of the CofS makes me want to tear what's left of my hair out....but once in a while, we do great stuff. My local presbytery (Ayr) is linked with one in Malawi, and, over the last decade, I think we've made a digfference. We've provided: 5ooo mosquito nets. A dispensary. Two solar powered internet rooms four village wells. Equipped a school for hearing impaired. Enabled 129 students to get to university (an amazing 700% increase) Provided over three hundred solar powered lamps to aid study (honest, they power up at night...) We've also sent eleven containers of clothing (mainly foor kids), medical equipment, paper and drawing supplies for schools, toys and lenses for glasses. Lastly, we've provided thirty tons of seed grain to plant after the recent floods.
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Correlation/causation.
I'm aware that correlation does not necessarily equal causation, but it is strongly suggestive in this case, at least.Remember: I'm not criticising or judging him for his sex life. Provided it doesn't involve minors or lack of informed consent, I don't. Adults do whatever adults want to do and that's fine by me. I'm criticising him for hypocrisy - for a public show of adherence to a certain set of moral standards which he eagerly flouted with some considerable vigour in private life.I won't head over the hills in search of Godwin's Law, but a claim amounts to nothing.That one needs evidence.
MLK never majored on sexual ethics. If he had done so, and had roundly denounced adultery in public while committing it in private, he'd have been a hypocrite, but he didn't.
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I'm aware that correlation does not necessarily equal causation, but it is strongly suggestive in this case, at least.
I don't think that is true - see my post earlier - the rise in democracy correlates with a decline in the influence of Christianity in those countries.
Also worth noting that the way in which Christian denominations themselves embed democracy in their own organisations is a pretty good sign of their real attitude (if you believe in democracy you must surely believe it is good for your own organisation too). And in this regard Christianity is woeful - while Anglicanism has some semblance of democracy (but pretty poor, certainly not close to one member one vote) the RCC is effectively devoid of any meaningful democracy within its hierarchy. They claim perhaps a billion adherents, yet how many of those people have a a direct democratic say in who control the organisation.
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MLK never majored on sexual ethics. If he had done so, and had roundly denounced adultery in public while committing it in private, he'd have been a hypocrite, but he didn't.
I don't even know what "majoring in sexual ethics" means. King was an ordained Baptist minister and a co-founder of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference - presumably the relevant commandment about adultery was supposed to be as binding upon him as upon any other Christian.
Perhaps there are special exemptions?
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I don't even know what "majoring in sexual ethics" means. King was an ordained Baptist minister and a co-founder of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference - presumably the relevant commandment about adultery was supposed to be as binding upon him as upon any other Christian.
Perhaps there are special exemptions?
Not in any form of Christianity that I know. Although quite a few have decided that they are exempt anyway.
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Moderator A number of posts have been removed as derails of the thread. Please note detailed discussion of actions on other boards is not allowed and will be removed.