Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: floo on July 23, 2017, 10:35:49 AM
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I have asked this question many times over the years, but have never had a sensible answer from Biblical literalists.
Well there's your problem right there - expecting a sensible answer from a Biblical literalist.
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I think it reflects the myth of the dying/resurrected god that was common in many mythic cultures. In these stories a mortal man dies, and comes back immortal.
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Well there's your problem right there - expecting a sensible answer from a Biblical literalist.
True, but one day I might get lucky. ;D
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I think it reflects the myth of the dying/resurrected god that was common in many mythic cultures. In these stories a mortal man dies, and comes back immortal.
Very prescient of these cultures..........
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If the less than credible story of the resurrection of Jesus is true, why didn't he stay down here on earth instead of disappearing skywards?
If only the 'saved' go to heaven, and the rest end up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity, surely it is most unfair of Jesus not to be doing his bit down here convincing everyone he is all that the gospel writers claim he is.
I have asked this question many times over the years, but have never had a sensible answer from Biblical literalists.
Jesus demonstrates a life possible for Mankind. Birth, death, resurrection, heaven. Anything beyond that like Methusalan longevity and he would have ceased to be Jesus God and Man.......
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Jesus demonstrates a life possible for Mankind. Birth, death, resurrection, heaven. Anything beyond that like Methusalan longevity and he would have ceased to be Jesus God and Man.......
I don't get that?
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If the less than credible story of the resurrection of Jesus is true, why didn't he stay down here on earth instead of disappearing skywards?
If only the 'saved' go to heaven, and the rest end up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity, surely it is most unfair of Jesus not to be doing his bit down here convincing everyone he is all that the gospel writers claim he is.
I have asked this question many times over the years, but have never had a sensible answer from Biblical literalists.
Because his work on earth was done. He gave the message, it's up to us whether we accept it or not.
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I don't get that?
It means that if he lived for 2000 or more years he could not have led any thing like an authentically human life.
In fact it wouldn't have happened because he would have been subject to the ''kill the freak'' tendency in mankind.
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It means that if he lived for 2000 or more years he could not have led any thing like an authentically human life.
Supposedly walking on water, reanimating corpses and producing huge numbers of fish finger sandwiches by allegedly magical means isn't my idea of an authentically human life.
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Supposedly walking on water, reanimating corpses and producing huge numbers of fish finger sandwiches by allegedly magical means isn't my idea of an authentically human life.
Did DavidBowie have an authentically human life? Can a 2000 year old person have an authentic human life.
I think there is no secret that Jesus is also thought of as God. He said himself that others would do greater acts and indeed we find similar in the acts of the apostles.
It didn't help him in front of Pilate and the Pharisees though.
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Did DavidBowie have an authentically human life?
Not that I knew him socially but I have every reason to think so.
I think there is no secret that Jesus is also thought of as God.
By some, yes. But some people believe all sorts.
It didn't help him in front of Pilate and the Pharisees though.
Ostensibly not that much of a god, then.
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Because his work on earth was done. He gave the message, it's up to us whether we accept it or not.
Surly H W B, you must mean', It's up to us whether we let ourselves be taken in by these, (until proved otherwise), fictional stories or not.
Ippy
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I wonder if those who say the Creed every week manage to say the words, 'He ascended into heaven' without their brains saying, 'but we know what is up there. If he ascended, he'd need a space suit ....'
In fact, I cannot remember when I last heard any religious speaker talking about heaven as anywhere 'up'!!
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I wonder if those who say the Creed every week manage to say the words, 'He ascended into heaven' without their brains saying, 'but we know what is up there. If he ascended, he'd need a space suit ....'
In fact, I cannot remember when I last heard any religious speaker talking about heaven as anywhere 'up'!!
That he ascended doesn't mean that heaven is above the clouds. That Christ desended into Hades doen't mean we believe hell is under our feet. But Christ ascending into heaven is a sign, that through him our humanity has been lifted up.
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Ah. It's one of those it's-a-metaphor moments ::)
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Surly H W B, you must mean', It's up to us whether we let ourselves be taken in by these, (until proved otherwise), fictional stories or not.
Ippy
positive assertion you need to prove it is fiction.
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Supposedly walking on water, reanimating corpses and producing huge numbers of fish finger sandwiches by allegedly magical means isn't my idea of an authentically human life.
You're always whingeing about God not helping out and when God does your whinge about that too.
Goddodging Shakes?
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You're always whingeing about God not helping out and when God does your whinge about that too.
A few fish finger butties falls a very long way short of what I would call help in a global context, given the alleged powers attributed to alleged entity.
Goddodging Shakes?
Nope. Just pointing out stupid shit as stupid shit, same as usual, Vlad.
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Surly H W B, you must mean', It's up to us whether we let ourselves be taken in by these, (until proved otherwise), fictional stories or not.
Ippy
Don't hold your breath.........
No.
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Because his work on earth was done. He gave the message, it's up to us whether we accept it or not.
Well clearly the guy disappeared too soon having done a bog standard job.
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positive assertion you need to prove it is fiction.
That it did NOT happen is the default position.
I think you know this already.
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Ah. It's one of those it's-a-metaphor moments ::)
There is plenty of metaphor and allegory in the scriptures. Neither of them denies the literal sense. They are not opposed to each other.
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positive assertion you need to prove it is fiction.
Hi there Vlad, you having another bad day? Think of the teapot Vlad; I'm not making any assertions and as you must know by now, nobody that posts here is that thick, the default position is for those that assert things it's for them to back up these assertions in some way, evidence for example.
Have another read of my post Vlad, it looks to me you may have missed something.
ippy
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That he ascended doesn't mean that heaven is above the clouds. That Christ desended into Hades doen't mean we believe hell is under our feet. But Christ ascending into heaven is a sign, that through him our humanity has been lifted up.
That's a step on the way to John Shelby Spong, who thinks that the Resurrection and the Ascension were originally one 'metaphorical' event, which later became differentiated and given literal narratives.
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That's a step on the way to John Shelby Spong
Oh, ad_o will be pleased.
I know I am :D
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That's a step on the way to John Shelby Spong, who thinks that the Resurrection and the Ascension were originally one 'metaphorical' event, which later became differentiated and given literal narratives.
Not at all. All I'm saying is that something can be both literal and an allegory or metaphor. This has been the approach from the very beginning. Therefore one can view the flood, for example, as being a real event but also see it as an allegory for baptism and the Church.
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Not at all. All I'm saying is that something can be both literal and an allegory or metaphor. This has been the approach from the very beginning. Therefore one can view the flood, for example, as being a real event but also see it as an allegory for baptism and the Church.
I don't get that?
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::)
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Not at all. All I'm saying is that something can be both literal and an allegory or metaphor. This has been the approach from the very beginning. Therefore one can view the flood, for example, as being a real event but also see it as an allegory for baptism and the Church.
Well one could, but it'd be a bit of a stretch.
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Well one could, but it'd be a bit of a stretch.
Not really. St. Paul does exactly that.
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Not really. St. Paul does exactly that.
Stretching the truth, you mean?
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Stretching the truth, you mean?
In Paul's case it seems he added his own hellenic-inspired theological take on the life of Jesus to the OT stories.
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In Paul's case it seems he added his own hellenic-inspired theological take on the life of Jesus to the OT stories.
Ever read the Epistle of James? It has a quite different message to Paul's epistles.
It is traditionally considered to be the work of James the Righteous, brother of Jesus.
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Ever read the Epistle of James? It has a quite different message to Paul's epistles.
It is traditionally considered to be the work of James the Righteous, brother of Jesus.
That is only a tradition with nothing to back it up.
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Ever read the Epistle of James? It has a quite different message to Paul's epistles.
It is traditionally considered to be the work of James the Righteous, brother of Jesus.
Quite a thorn in Luther's flesh. All about works, and Paul all about faith.
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Not really. St. Paul does exactly that.
St Peter, wasn't it? St Paul thought the Israelites passing through the Dead Sea unscathed prefigured baptism (though since the point of the OT story was that they didn't get a good old soaking, the allegory seems quite loose).
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MMM
Well... there's never ever been ANY proof of Jesus even existing so to send him off to 'heaven' is the final nail in the coffin, so to speak.
Although there never WAS a coffin !!! LOL
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MMM
Well... there's never ever been ANY proof of Jesus even existing so to send him off to 'heaven' is the final nail in the coffin, so to speak.
Although there never WAS a coffin !!! LOL
You mean to use evidence here instead of proof and in terms of the existence of a preacher called Jesus in early CE around the 'Holy Land', then the NT does amount to evidence.
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Not really. St. Paul does exactly that.
Now how about a comment from a Christian on the "Charlie Grad and God" thread?
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You're always whingeing about God not helping out and when God does your whinge about that too.
Goddodging Shakes?
Now how about a comment from a Christian on the "Charlie Grad and God" thread?
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Now how about a comment from a Christian on the "Charlie Grad and God" thread?
Not going to happen in near future
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=6939.50
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Now how about a comment from a Christian on the "Charlie Grad and God" thread?
just to note that you have had 2 comments from Christians on that thread.
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just to note that you have had 2 comments from Christians on that thread.
Which two?
If one was Spud I am still awaiting his explanation of an extremely cryptic (to me anyway) comment.
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Which two?
If one was Spud I am still awaiting his explanation of an extremely cryptic (to me anyway) comment.
Spud and Robinson
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You mean to use evidence here instead of proof and in terms of the existence of a preacher called Jesus in early CE around the 'Holy Land', then the NT does amount to evidence.
So the Quran proves all of Islam is true because IT exists ?!!?!? :o
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So the Quran proves all of Islam is true because IT exists ?!!?!? :o
No. Can I be the first to congratulate on the new board record on the biggest strawman post?
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If the less than credible story of the resurrection of Jesus is true, why didn't he stay down here on earth instead of disappearing skywards?
If only the 'saved' go to heaven, and the rest end up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity, surely it is most unfair of Jesus not to be doing his bit down here convincing everyone he is all that the gospel writers claim he is.
I have asked this question many times over the years, but have never had a sensible answer from Biblical literalists.
Christians believe, according to the Gospels, Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come, so he is with us, & that happened at Pentecost.
From John 14
However, the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything. He will remind you of everything that I have ever told you.
So the Quran proves all of Islam is true because IT exists ?!!?!? :o
Evidence not proof !!@*** ;)
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Evidence not proof !!@*** ;)
It isn't evidence that 'all' Islam is true either. It is evidence to historic events, as in the methodological naturalistic approach of the study of history. In the absence of a methodology for supernatural claims or moral pronouncements, it isn't evidence for those.
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Yes indeed.
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Agreed !!!!
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Agreed !!!!
Which given it is precisely the approach I used when I wrote
'You mean to use evidence here instead of proof and in terms of the existence of a preacher called Jesus in early CE around the 'Holy Land', then the NT does amount to evidence.'
Then I take it you accept that too?
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Spud and Robinson
Thank you.
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If the 'evidence' is correct & checkable.
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If the 'evidence' is correct & checkable.
That's a question about its quality not about it being evidence.much of historical evidence isn't checkable, and 'correct' is essentially meaningless in history study.
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Agreed