Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Sriram on August 08, 2017, 07:56:18 AM
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Hi everyone,
Here is a video by Sadhguru on enlightenment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0_-an5hio8
Try it.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Try this too.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNuBBNB-gXw
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http://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/yoga-meditation/demystifying-yoga/what-is-enlightenment-can-spiritual-practices-enlighten-me/
(I prefer reading text to videos unless I'm on my own)
Very interesting stuff. If only.....
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Thanks Robinson...! :)
Hi everyone,
These insights by the Sadhguru could help some of you understand spirituality a little better.....since most of you treat it as something supernatural or dependent on God.
Spirituality is a normal part of life. Everyone is developing spiritually whether they like it or not. The process takes several births and happens very slowly, therefore everyone will not be aware of it. But the moment the process is nearing completion the person will find a difference in their awareness. This is enlightenment. Enlightenment is not a sudden flash of super knowledge or something like that. It is like the slow increase in intensity of a light bulb as it is cleaned up layer by layer.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Sriram
Namaste bhaiya.
Why do you feel we're all filthy lightbulbs when we're born?
Nick
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Thanks Robinson...! :)
Hi everyone,
These insights by the Sadhguru could help some of you understand spirituality a little better.....since most of you treat it as something supernatural or dependent on God.
Spirituality is a normal part of life. Everyone is developing spiritually whether they like it or not. The process takes several births and happens very slowly, therefore everyone will not be aware of it. But the moment the process is nearing completion the person will find a difference in their awareness. This is enlightenment. Enlightenment is not a sudden flash of super knowledge or something like that. It is like the slow increase in intensity of a light bulb as it is cleaned up layer by layer.
Cheers.
Sriram
What? No discussions on such an important subject? ???
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What? No discussions on such an important subject? ???
Not supernatural ? Then you come out with
The process takes several births....
If that is not supernatural, then it is woo that trying to smuggle in a redefinition of 'supernatural' to make it more acceptable to thinking people.
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What? No discussions on such an important subject? ???
What is so important about someones unsubstantiated beliefs and opinions?
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What? No discussions on such an important subject? ???
I think that I am too far down the rebirth chain to actually give a fuck! ::)
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Not supernatural ? Then you come out with
If that is not supernatural, then it is woo that trying to smuggle in a redefinition of 'supernatural' to make it more acceptable to thinking people.
Birth is natural. Why is rebirth supernatural?!! Why is the Self living on after the body dies...'supernatural'? It is like conservation of energy. Life also is conserved.
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Birth is natural. Why is rebirth supernatural?!!
Because all experience tells us that birth is a point is a process that ends in death.
Why is the Self living on after the body dies...'supernatural'?
Because there's absolutely no evidence of any mechanism whereby a 'self' (or even a Self; whatever that is) can exist without a body.
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Because all experience tells us that birth is a point is a process that ends in death.
Because there's absolutely no evidence of any mechanism whereby a 'self' (or even a Self; whatever that is) can exist without a body.
I agree.
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Because all experience tells us that birth is a point is a process that ends in death.
Because there's absolutely no evidence of any mechanism whereby a 'self' (or even a Self; whatever that is) can exist without a body.
1.First people around the world should stop confusing such matters with religion and start taking them seriously instead of dismissing them off hand.
2.Then they should come out of mythology/theology and start viewing such matters as natural phenomenon with universal applicability.
3.Then they should device experimental methodologies, methods and techniques suited to such phenomena.
4.Then they should take the trouble to conduct such experiments.
5.Then...it is possible that we will get the evidence that you people are looking for.
6.Till then these subjects will remain philosophical in nature and can be confirmed only through subjective introspection and self analysis.
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and can be confirmed
....or not.......
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Birth is natural. Why is rebirth supernatural?!! Why is the Self living on after the body dies...'supernatural'? It is like conservation of energy. Life also is conserved.
Energy is conserved. (Individual) life isn't. That's what we learn from observation.
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Energy is conserved. (Individual) life isn't. That's what we learn from observation.
What observation? Like saying that the sun is one inch dia and goes from east to west.
Saying that Life is not conserved is just a statement. You don't actually know that. People did not know that energy is conserved till recent centuries. Someone took the trouble to find out instead of dismissing it off hand. That's how we know it today.
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What observation? Like saying that the sun is one inch dia and goes from east to west.
Saying that Life is not conserved is just a statement. You don't actually know that. People did not know that energy is conserved till recent centuries. Someone took the trouble to find out instead of dismissing it off hand. That's how we know it today.
And the same principles of enquiry have led us to the understanding that life is a form of metabolism, a means of processing energy. The energy that is processed persists through one form or another. Metabolism, however, is a process, and does not persist beyond the end of the process.
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And the same principles of enquiry have led us to the understanding that life is a form of metabolism, a means of processing energy. The energy that is processed persists through one form or another. Metabolism, however, is a process, and does not persist beyond the end of the process.
The mechanism of body functions is very different from what Life is. You are just assuming that Life is a result of a certain metabolism. Life could be the source of the metabolism. Life exists everywhere even in organisms with very different metabolisms.
It is a way of thinking and perception. For too long people have dumped such matters with religious mythology and supernatural-ism.
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The mechanism of body functions is very different from what Life is. You are just assuming that Life is a result of a certain metabolism. Life could be the source of the metabolism. Life exists everywhere even in organisms with very different metabolisms.
You've got that back to front. Life doesn't result from metabolism, life is metabolism, and replication is a means of prolonging the process. This is the core definition of what life is, it matters not what you are, a tree creeping lizard, a photosynthetic plankton, a preacher, the one common denominator is that we all keep metabolising energy, and all that creeping and photosynthesising and preaching is all done as a means to keep on processing energy. All the phenomena of life spring from this ground.
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What? No discussions on such an important subject? ???
Sriram, I note you made this comment immediately after trippymonkey's very reasonable question to you (Why do you feel we're all filthy lightbulbs when we're born?), which you chose to ignore. If you genuinely want a discussion then perhaps responding to questions would be a start. In previous threads I've several times invited you to explain why you believe something or why you think we should take seriously something that you assert without evidence, but you've never responded to those posts. You often - as here - seem quite vexed that nobody wants to embrace your beliefs or consider them more seriously, apparently simply on the strength that you believe them to be true. Perhaps there's a message for you in this somewhere.
It's probably not a coincidence that you, an Indian, hold beliefs that are widely held within Indian religions. I suspect the central problem you have when you proselytise here is that few or none of us grew up with your religious worldview and don't, like you, take it as obvious. Merely stating the content of your beliefs or posting videos that do the same isn't in itself likely to persuade anyone. You would need, minimally, to show how your beliefs might be relevant to us and why we might want to investigate them further, which is precisely why I've previously asked you to do this. If you have personal experiences that illustrate how you have found these beliefs helpful in your own life then that would obviously also help.
The most obvious reason that this thread hasn't taken off in the way you hoped is probably that nobody can see why they should be interested in your idea of enlightenment, entangled as it is with your entire worldview, which is not generally shared by contributors to this forum. Why then should we be concerned with liberation from samsara? Such concern would depend on a pre-existing belief in rebirth, which very clearly few people here subscribe to. You would first have to persuade us to believe in rebirth, but why would anyone choose to believe in something simply so that they could believe in a means to escape from it? This would be like a person volunteering to become infected with a disease in order to have a reason to buy medicine from the person who infected them. When people do adopt a belief in rebirth it is not usually to escape from it but because they think it preferable to dying. In other words, they find samsara attractive, or at least more attractive than the alternative. All this leads us back to trippymonkey's question to you and the issue of why anyone might wish to embrace the belief that they were born in need of a long, slow 'cleaning up' as you put it.
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Sriram, I note you made this comment immediately after trippymonkey's very reasonable question to you (Why do you feel we're all filthy lightbulbs when we're born?), which you chose to ignore. If you genuinely want a discussion then perhaps responding to questions would be a start. In previous threads I've several times invited you to explain why you believe something or why you think we should take seriously something that you assert without evidence, but you've never responded to those posts. You often - as here - seem quite vexed that nobody wants to embrace your beliefs or consider them more seriously, apparently simply on the strength that you believe them to be true. Perhaps there's a message for you in this somewhere.
It's probably not a coincidence that you, an Indian, hold beliefs that are widely held within Indian religions. I suspect the central problem you have when you proselytise here is that few or none of us grew up with your religious worldview and don't, like you, take it as obvious. Merely stating the content of your beliefs or posting videos that do the same isn't in itself likely to persuade anyone. You would need, minimally, to show how your beliefs might be relevant to us and why we might want to investigate them further, which is precisely why I've previously asked you to do this. If you have personal experiences that illustrate how you have found these beliefs helpful in your own life then that would obviously also help.
The most obvious reason that this thread hasn't taken off in the way you hoped is probably that nobody can see why they should be interested in your idea of enlightenment, entangled as it is with your entire worldview, which is not generally shared by contributors to this forum. Why then should we be concerned with liberation from samsara? Such concern would depend on a pre-existing belief in rebirth, which very clearly few people here subscribe to. You would first have to persuade us to believe in rebirth, but why would anyone choose to believe in something simply so that they could believe in a means to escape from it? This would be like a person volunteering to become infected with a disease in order to have a reason to buy medicine from the person who infected them. When people do adopt a belief in rebirth it is not usually to escape from it but because they think it preferable to dying. In other words, they find samsara attractive, or at least more attractive than the alternative. All this leads us back to trippymonkey's question to you and the issue of why anyone might wish to embrace the belief that they were born in need of a long, slow 'cleaning up' as you put it.
Well...Bramble, it is very simple really!
1. This is a Religions & Ethics board and is intended for discussion of precisely such matters as I discuss. Most people seem to forget that and seem to assume that I and other spiritual people owe the atheists on this board some kind of an explanation! This is clearly wrong. Let me make it clear that I am not presenting any thesis for the approval of you people here. I am not going to 'explain' myself to anyone. Let us be very clear about that.
2. If anyone wants to have a civil and knowledgeable discussion based on their own understanding of spirituality, I am always open for a discussion and I do often have lengthy discussions whenever it is warranted and whenever the other person is suitably civil and suitably responsive. I don't continue a conversation with everyone simply because I just don't want to. If anyone feels ignored...there is no personal offence...but it means that I just find the discussion pointless and a dead end.
3. Subjects like Spirituality are not amenable for proof or evidence and cannot be 'made understood' to others. These subjects require a certain background and a certain perception. If anyone has it, it will be possible to discuss these matters. If not, these things cannot be discussed. It is not like pulling out some 'evidence' and showing you why I think in a certain way. If you don't understand it ...you just don't! That's it!
4. In spite of the fact that most people on this board are atheists with no background at all of Hindu spirituality, I continue to post on such matters only to introduce them to such ways of thinking because they are different from the Western and Christian spirituality that they have been exposed to. If people have a problem with it, I can't help it. I know these subjects may make people uncomfortable. People may find it difficult to brush them off as easily as they enjoy brushing off Christian mythology. I however think that it is important that I continue to introduce people to such thoughts in spite of their reluctance to understand them.
5. People are free to disagree with anything I say...and most people have indeed been disagreeing with me quite vehemently over the years. That is no problem. But don't expect me to keep presenting my arguments to you for agreement....or spend endless hours trying to convince anyone. If I find something is not being understood or being taken in the right spirit, I will just move on.
6. In this thread, I am not concerned about anyone not agreeing or understanding what I or the Sadhguru have said. That doesn't bother me one bit. I was only talking about the usual stuff that torridon and others normally take up for discussion. If no one has anything to say...just fine with me!
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You've got that back to front. Life doesn't result from metabolism, life is metabolism, and replication is a means of prolonging the process. This is the core definition of what life is, it matters not what you are, a tree creeping lizard, a photosynthetic plankton, a preacher, the one common denominator is that we all keep metabolising energy, and all that creeping and photosynthesising and preaching is all done as a means to keep on processing energy. All the phenomena of life spring from this ground.
That is just your assumption. Not necessarily a fact! No one has understood Life or Consciousness or why they arise and which results from which. As I have said many times, it is like a car. We can go on and on about the mechanisms that make the car move...but until we understand the person behind the wheel...we don't understand anything at all.
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Well...Bramble, it is very simple really!
1. This is a Religions & Ethics board and is intended for discussion of precisely such matters as I discuss. Most people seem to forget that and seem to assume that I and other spiritual people owe the atheists on this board some kind of an explanation! This is clearly wrong. Let me make it clear that I am not presenting any thesis for the approval of you people here. I am not going to 'explain' myself to anyone. Let us be very clear about that.
2. If anyone wants to have a civil and knowledgeable discussion based on their own understanding of spirituality, I am always open for a discussion and I do often have lengthy discussions whenever it is warranted and whenever the other person is suitably civil and suitably responsive. I don't continue a conversation with everyone simply because I just don't want to. If anyone feels ignored...there is no personal offence...but it means that I just find the discussion pointless and a dead end.
3. Subjects like Spirituality are not amenable for proof or evidence and cannot be 'made understood' to others. These subjects require a certain background and a certain perception. If anyone has it, it will be possible to discuss these matters. If not, these things cannot be discussed. It is not like pulling out some 'evidence' and showing you why I think in a certain way. If you don't understand it ...you just don't! That's it!
4. In spite of the fact that most people on this board are atheists with no background at all of Hindu spirituality, I continue to post on such matters only to introduce them to such ways of thinking because they are different from the Western and Christian spirituality that they have been exposed to. If people have a problem with it, I can't help it. I know these subjects may make people uncomfortable. People may find it difficult to brush them off as easily as they enjoy brushing off Christian mythology. I however think that it is important that I continue to introduce people to such thoughts in spite of their reluctance to understand them.
5. People are free to disagree with anything I say...and most people have indeed been disagreeing with me quite vehemently over the years. That is no problem. But don't expect me to keep presenting my arguments to you for agreement....or spend endless hours trying to convince anyone. If I find something is not being understood or being taken in the right spirit, I will just move on.
6. In this thread, I am not concerned about anyone not agreeing or understanding what I or the Sadhguru have said. That doesn't bother me one bit. I was only talking about the usual stuff that torridon and others normally take up for discussion. If no one has anything to say...just fine with me!
Responses:
1) Present anything you like. If people don't find it interesting, that's up to them. if they do, then a discussion ensues. Simple.
2) Perhaps you might take on board the last 14 words of your second point, as regards others then.
3) Perhaps because some people have very different ideas and experiences of what that hackneyed word 'Spirituality' means to them, they don't take kindly to being told that they don't understand your version of it. Hence the discussion ceases.
4) I'm not sure that your points here are particularly relevant. Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I have no problems with your ideas, and they don't make me feel the least bit uncomfortable. I do however tend to disagree with many(but not all) of them, because I find no evidence which convinces me that you are right.
5) Of course. Anyone can disagree, and they do. Someone might well disagree with this post. No problem. I wouldn't expect anything more from you than which you are prepared to give. Your last sentence on this point may well apply to others just as much as it applies to you.
6)I personally can't think of anything much to say. I listened/watched the first video. Frankly it really told me nothing of which I was not aware before. I didn't watch any of the others as I find him rather boring, although he had a soothing voice and I quite liked his humorous delivery. This is just me, you understand. Others may find him quite inspiring.
There, see. You've got a response. ;D
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I didn't demand a response from you...so what are you on about?!
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Well...Bramble, it is very simple really!
1. This is a Religions & Ethics board and is intended for discussion of precisely such matters as I discuss. Most people seem to forget that and seem to assume that I and other spiritual people owe the atheists on this board some kind of an explanation! This is clearly wrong. Let me make it clear that I am not presenting any thesis for the approval of you people here. I am not going to 'explain' myself to anyone. Let us be very clear about that.
2. If anyone wants to have a civil and knowledgeable discussion based on their own understanding of spirituality, I am always open for a discussion and I do often have lengthy discussions whenever it is warranted and whenever the other person is suitably civil and suitably responsive. I don't continue a conversation with everyone simply because I just don't want to. If anyone feels ignored...there is no personal offence...but it means that I just find the discussion pointless and a dead end.
3. Subjects like Spirituality are not amenable for proof or evidence and cannot be 'made understood' to others. These subjects require a certain background and a certain perception. If anyone has it, it will be possible to discuss these matters. If not, these things cannot be discussed. It is not like pulling out some 'evidence' and showing you why I think in a certain way. If you don't understand it ...you just don't! That's it!
4. In spite of the fact that most people on this board are atheists with no background at all of Hindu spirituality, I continue to post on such matters only to introduce them to such ways of thinking because they are different from the Western and Christian spirituality that they have been exposed to. If people have a problem with it, I can't help it. I know these subjects may make people uncomfortable. People may find it difficult to brush them off as easily as they enjoy brushing off Christian mythology. I however think that it is important that I continue to introduce people to such thoughts in spite of their reluctance to understand them.
5. People are free to disagree with anything I say...and most people have indeed been disagreeing with me quite vehemently over the years. That is no problem. But don't expect me to keep presenting my arguments to you for agreement....or spend endless hours trying to convince anyone. If I find something is not being understood or being taken in the right spirit, I will just move on.
6. In this thread, I am not concerned about anyone not agreeing or understanding what I or the Sadhguru have said. That doesn't bother me one bit. I was only talking about the usual stuff that torridon and others normally take up for discussion. If no one has anything to say...just fine with me!
Well, Sriram, thank you for such a lengthy response. You are, of course, free to post in any way you like. I was really just trying to help you understand why other people might not be responding to you as enthusiastically as you had hoped, but it seems you're not that bothered after all. That's fine.
I am, however, intrigued by the vehemence of your insistence that you are not going to explain yourself to anyone and don't care whether others agree with or even understand what you say. If this is the case then why do you say: "I however think that it is important that I continue to introduce people to such thoughts in spite of their reluctance to understand them" and "These insights by the Sadhguru could help some of you understand spirituality a little better"? You are also obviously keen to prevail in your arguments with torridon, so perhaps you are rather more interested in getting others to understand and agree with you than you pretend. Certainly, many of your posts have a kind of missionary flavour, as if you were intent on enlightening the ignorant natives. No matter, I'll leave you to it.
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That is just your assumption what all the evidence suggests. Not necessarily a fact! No one has understood Life or Consciousness or why they arise and which results from which. As I have said many times, it is like a car. We can go on and on about the mechanisms that make the car move...but until we understand the person behind the wheel...we don't understand anything at all.
There, FIFY.
Much better now
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What a lovely post from the too rarely seen Bramble.
However, I hope that Bramble will not take it amiss if I try to summarise Bramble's summary of Sriram's long-winded post and state what I think are the main points a little more concisely, which to my mind are:
- that Sriram posts what he likes (which is entirely fair enough - don't we all); however:
- Sriram, you claim not to be bothered that anybody agrees with you;
- you claim not to care about explaining yourself;
- you claim not to care about providing reasons for anything you post;
- you claim not to care about being understood even if not agreed with;
all of which beget the question, why bother? In light of the preceding - and especially no. 3 on your list - why are you here and what do you think you are doing?
No. 4 is especially irksome:
In spite of the fact that most people on this board are atheists with no background at all of Hindu spirituality, I continue to post on such matters only to introduce them to such ways of thinking because they are different from the Western and Christian spirituality that they have been exposed to. If people have a problem with it, I can't help it. I know these subjects may make people uncomfortable. People may find it difficult to brush them off as easily as they enjoy brushing off Christian mythology. I however think that it is important that I continue to introduce people to such thoughts in spite of their reluctance to understand them.
as an example of displacement activity as well as arrogant assumption. (How do you know that somebody has "no background at all" of what you call 'Hindu spirituality'?).
Not believing you is not "having a problem with".
Not believing you is not being "uncomfortable with".
Not believing you is not "being reluctant to understand".
You are falling into the trap of many a religionist who thinks that disagreement or disbelief in their ideas is the fault of the one who disagrees, rather than the fault of the ideas themselves. If I had a pound for every time I've seen a religionist - usually a theist - confuse my dislike of their worldview for what they like to assume is my ignorance of their worldview, I wouldn't be a rich man, but I would be considerably more comfortably off than I am at present.
Take-home message: it really isn't always about "You don't understand what I'm saying"; it's often "Yes, I do understand what you're saying; I just don't believe a blind bloody word of it. You haven't furnished me with a single reason to think that anything you've said is in any way true."
And that, to many a religionist, is the truly intolerable thing.
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I didn't demand a response from you...so what are you on about?!
Didn't say you did. But you did question why you got no discussions on such an important subject, and then you produced your six points in response to Bramble's excellent post as to why you haven't been getting enough responses and why this thread hasn't taken off.
So I gave you my responses to your 6 points. like them or lump them, I don't really care. :)
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like them or lump them, I don't really care. :)
Playing him at his own game. Like it :D
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Sigh...!
Let me remind all you guys (once again) about the Eleanor Roosevelt quote.
"Great minds discuss ideas;
Average minds discuss events;
Small minds discuss people."
The subject of the thread is 'Enlightenment'.....not 'Sriram'.
Thanks and Cheers.
Sriram