Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Philosophy, in all its guises. => Topic started by: Owlswing on September 02, 2017, 02:41:51 AM
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4840520/Transgender-teen-s-suicide-school-banned-change.html
It is bad enough that this boy was treated in the way he was, leading to his suicide, but to continue to refer to him by his birth name
QUOTE - Head teacher Sharon Cromie, 51, said in a short statement: 'Louise was a wonderful person in every way and is missed by us all.' - UNQUOTE
is an insult to his memory.
I might expect this kind of thing in the US but Buckinghamshire? Does this woman have no realisation of the consequences of her actions?
-
I suspect that as this was an all girls school the head couldn't be arsed with the dilemma of dealing with a boy on the school (and parents reacting to the changing room and toilets issue) so pretended it wasn't there.
To ignore his wishes after his death is ignorant and cruel but would also be an admission of being wrong, and inadequate people doing inadequate jobs can't do that.
-
I don't suppose it was meant to be insulting to his memory. In any case, the head might be misquoted - could have said Louis and quoted as saying Louise, we weren't there and it's easy to add an 'e'. What she said about the boy was nice which is more important.
-
I don't suppose it was meant to be insulting to his memory. In any case, the head might be misquoted - could have said Louis and quoted as saying Louise, we weren't there and it's easy to add an 'e'. What she said about the boy was nice which is more important.
He was called Leo - hard to see how that could become Louise by the addition of an 'e'.
-
Yes he was called Leo, sorry I missed that, thought he was "Louis".
I do feel a bit sorry for the head teacher though, doubt it was meant as a slight. Typical of the press to make a big deal out of it.
This is a terrible tragedy without people pointing a finger at a teacher. She isn't to blame for the boy's suicide. My sympathy is with his father.
-
Yes he was called Leo, sorry I missed that, thought he was "Louis".
I do feel a bit sorry for the head teacher though, doubt it was meant as a slight. Typical of the press to make a big deal out of it.
This is a terrible tragedy without people pointing a finger at a teacher. She isn't to blame for the boy's suicide. My sympathy is with his father.
Yes, I'm afraid that she was!
It was her decison the refuse to allow him to be called Leo - OK, he could not Deed Poll him name until he was sixteen, but in the School Register, by teachers and fellow pupils?
He was, just before his suicide, "angry about the school" because of this woman's decision - she WAS and IS responsible for the consequences of her actions and statements!
As to the press - better they make a big deal of it than allow the boy's death to be dismissed as "just another over-emotional poof trying to get some attention" as one woman on my bus described it!
-
Yes he was called Leo, sorry I missed that, thought he was "Louis".
I do feel a bit sorry for the head teacher though, doubt it was meant as a slight. Typical of the press to make a big deal out of it.
This is a terrible tragedy without people pointing a finger at a teacher. She isn't to blame for the boy's suicide. My sympathy is with his father.
Stop making up excuses for this pathetic excuse of a human being. She knew *exactly* what she was doing. Insults aside, she is covering her own mistake. She should have accommodated his transgender in school and was negligent on not doing so, presumably because it made her life easier. In not acknowledging Leo after death she is trying to give the impression that she was right to do what she did. I hope she gets sacked and never works again. I wouldn't leave her in charge of emptying the bins.
-
Yes, it's what Americans' call doubling down on her previous fuck-up, in denying the boy his trans status. Then to issue condolences in his previous name is egregious, and really, a slap in the face to his father and friends.
-
Stop making up excuses for this pathetic excuse of a human being. She knew *exactly* what she was doing. Insults aside, she is covering her own mistake. She should have accommodated his transgender in school and was negligent on not doing so, presumably because it made her life easier. In not acknowledging Leo after death she is trying to give the impression that she was right to do what she did. I hope she gets sacked and never works again. I wouldn't leave her in charge of emptying the bins.
Is this a genuine post or were you just trying to give a clever example of how irrational human nature causes problems for people? By irrational human nature I mean people being quick to judge based on sensationalised media headlines and little actual information, opinionated, over-emotional, willing to sack people and negatively affect multiple lives because someone may or may not hold a different opinion from them.
The head teacher might well be useless at being a head teacher - only the people at the school can assess that. Or there is every possibility that she might have done a pretty decent job running a school and giving a lot of kids a decent education. If it's the latter, I would not want all the kids she has helped denied her useful input just because she called a transgender person Lousie, instead of Leo.
Leo's emotional problems are probably caused by multiple issues, including the recent death of his mother from cancer and up-coming exams. It is unreasonable for him to get so angry over the name on the school register that he decided to kill himself but not particularly surprising if in his teenage impetuousness, he decided to blame the school rather than admit anxiety over exams or any other issues bothering him. Many teenagers have a problem with thinking or communicating clearly.
A kid with LGBT emotional problems and a single father who has recently lost his wife to cancer, which from recent personal experience with a close relative, is a gruelling time for the family, is going to be a difficult situation.
A statement released by the school disputed the Daily Mail claims, saying it "did not refuse a name change as suggested".
A spokesperson said: "Louise / Leo / Alex Etherington was a wonderful young person, in every respect and popular and well-liked by all.
"The death of a young person is always deeply upsetting and our thoughts at this time are with the family & friends.
"I cannot comment on any individual case. However, I can advise that our procedures support name changes'."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-teenager-kills-himself-suicide-school-ban-name-use-leo-etherington-a7923811.html
-
Gabriella #8
Well said.
-
Agree with you about Gabriella's post, Susan.
Gabriella, I also read the Independent article, also one from the Guardian because I didn't want to rely solely on the Mail. The Guardian article said much the same as the Mail but the Independent had more information.
Leo had also called himself Alex for a while but ultimately rejected it as being too gender neutral.
Poor young lad seemed to have a whole heap of emotional problems.
-
Yes - newspaper articles can be misleading as it's up to the journalist and editor as to the spin they want to put on events for their own agenda. Out of hundreds of comments made by the father, they can choose to include just one comment and change the focus and emphasis of the whole report. The distortion is magnified if people have excessive, knee-jerk reactions to events based on misleading media spin.
I think it is unhelpful to the other children in the school, who are just as important as Leo, if the papers target individuals who may well be doing a good job for the well-being of the majority of the school. IMO if Leo felt angry that his needs were not being met by the school, this is an issue that Leo should have got help with from external counselling to gain some much-needed perspective.
-
I think in general it is wrong to blame anyone else for a persons suicide. Unless the person has been specifically driven to suicide through cruelty or torture (physical or mental), I don't think anyone else can be blamed or held responsible.
No on expects anyone to commit suicide in the normal course of things. Suicide requires a type of mental condition which no one can anticipate or foresee (unless the other person has specifically warned or threatened them that he/she will commit suicide).
Millions of people live under extremely challenging circumstances and never even think of suicide, so when and why any person will actually commit suicide can never be anticipated. Anything can be taken as an insult or a slight even though nothing was actually meant. It all depends on how that person perceives it.
People, especially some teens, sometimes commit suicide for the silliest reasons.....exam marks, love affairs, teasing by friends, even for not having a mobile phone! Who can be held responsible?
-
Agree, Gabriella and Sriram.
It's also amounting to slander to accuse someone of someone else's suicide when the actual reasons for the suicide are only known to the person that has died.
May be not the best idea to post such accusations on a forum that is open for all the internet/world to see.
-
Agree, Gabriella and Sriram.
It's also amounting to slander to accuse someone of someone else's suicide when the actual reasons for the suicide are only known to the person that has died.
May be not the best idea to post such accusations on a forum that is open for all the internet/world to see.
Note given it's a written opinion it would be libel rather than slander. Further given it's an opinion about blame rather than a demonstrably incorrect matter of fact, it would fail any libel case.
-
Hmm, let me see where I blamed the teacher for Leo's suicide.
Oh yeah, I didn't.
-
Hmm, let me see where I blamed the teacher for Leo's suicide.
Oh yeah, I didn't.
No, but see reply #5.
-
Rhiannon
Moderator: content removed
My point was that you describing someone as a pathetic excuse for a human being, negligent and calling for a head teacher, who might be meeting the needs of the vast majority of pupils, to be sacked simply because she calls someone by the name on the school records is unreasonably judgmental.
It's also dangerous to suspend judgment and fairness towards the emotionally stable person (the head), just because an emotionally unstable person (Leo) kills himself over a belief about gender, especially in this situation where the newspaper is alleging that Leo killed himself because he was angry for not getting his own way at school.
It seems pretty reasonable for the school to only change school records when Leo legally changes his name. Especially as he felt comfortable enough to come out at school and asked the school to call him Alex before he opted for Leo. The school IMO should not be expected to keep changing pupils' names on official records every time they opt for a new name, until the pupil demonstrates that the change is a permanent change. Far better for pupils to get counselling to cope in a healthy way with disagreement and disappointment
Looking into the story further raises more issues that could have contributed to Leo's emotional pain:
"The day before Leo’s death, Mr Etherington (Leo's father) said he received a message on Facebook from a stranger purporting that Leo was in a “relationship of sorts” with their 13-year-old daughter, and had exchanged “inappropriate” pictures and messages with her.
He asked Leo about it who denied any knowledge of the messages and pictures."
https://tinyurl.com/yaxxnwnn
I think not being allowed to change his name in school records and the head calling him Louise does not negate the head thinking he was a wonderful person in every way.
-
Hmm, let me see where I blamed the teacher for Leo's suicide.
Oh yeah, I didn't.
You didn't actually say that Rhiannon ((Owlswing did in post 6), but came pretty close to it, I certainly got the impression from your posts that you blamed the Head
:-
Quote from: Robinson on September 02, 2017, 09:11:23 PM
Yes he was called Leo, sorry I missed that, thought he was "Louis".
I do feel a bit sorry for the head teacher though, doubt it was meant as a slight. Typical of the press to make a big deal out of it.
This is a terrible tragedy without people pointing a finger at a teacher. She isn't to blame for the boy's suicide. My sympathy is with his father.[unquote/)
Quote from Rhiannon post 6: Stop making up excuses for this pathetic excuse of a human being. She knew *exactly* what she was doing. Insults aside, she is covering her own mistake. She should have accommodated his transgender in school and was negligent on not doing so, presumably because it made her life easier. In not acknowledging Leo after death she is trying to give the impression that she was right to do what she did. I hope she gets sacked and never works again. I wouldn't leave her in charge of emptying the bins.
[unquote/)
Such vehemence when we knew so little from the Mail article. Yet surely it was obvious there was a lot more to the story than we read, given the recent family history. Leo first of all coming as gay (as Alex), then decided he was trans, the GP saying an op could not be funded on the NHS.
The Independent articile quotes the school as saying they do support changes of name.
-
I googled the case and read the Guardian, the Indie and the Currant Bun as well as the Mail before opting, in case any site reported something differently. They can say that their policies support whatever shit that they want; the fact is that they didn't when Leo was in the school as is evidenced by her pathetic and inhumane refusal to acknowledge his name after his death. So they might do now. Big deal. Her actions after his death are, as Wiggs says, a slap in her father's face. Why would it have cost her to use his name? Oh, maybe some humanity.
Tough shit if you think i came 'close' to blaming the head for his death; I didn't and I don't. I would say that the biggest tragedy in this young man's life was losing his mother; given that trans people are often at heightened risk of self harm and suicide (source: Guardian article) then the poor young chap was always up against it. In which case he should have expected extra help from his school.
The arrogance not even to use his name after his death. Not even to acknowledge it. Horrible. And for that total lack of empathy she shouldn't be allowed to teach.
-
"I would say that the biggest tragedy in this young man's life was losing his mother; given that trans people are often at heightened risk of self harm and suicide (source: Guardian article) then the poor young chap was always up against it. In which case he should have expected extra help from his school."
Fair comments, I'd have thought some sort of counselling be available for such a traumatic bereavement four years ago, about the time he started at the school.
Also seems strange for someone identifying as a boy to still be going to an all girls school - I thought maybe there was no similar boys' or co-ed school in Leo's area but there are two boys' grammar schools. That would all take time though & 6th form college would have been the natural next option for Leo.
All a mess really, none of it handled well but no one person to blame.
(A girl, considered to be gifted, at a school not far from me committed suicide about two & half years ago. There was a lot of talk about her not getting support she needed, she had previously spoken about having suicidal thoughts. Had also been excluded for a relatively minor misdemeanour which was the straw that broke the camel's back. The Head stepped down, someone else took over as 'interim' head & is still there, but there was more than one person who appeared to have failed the girl; No one seemed to have perceived her cries for help or took them seriously, including family. I suppose the head thought the buck stopped at her door but she hadn't been in the position very long.
Teenage suicides are not uncommon and leave people wondering why & what they might have done better. It is so, so very sad).
-
Rhiannon
You are mistaking your un-evidenced opinions and beliefs on school policies at the time for facts. It's up to you to prove the school policies on names were not in place at the time Leo was at school.
Also, based on your logic about the head's statement being evidence of a lack of empathy, the head paying tribute to a pupil by calling them a wonderful person in every way is evidence that she cared about Leo and is an empathetic human being, even if Leo, in his angry, confused early teens, did not have the perspective to see it.
The father doesn't have to consider it a slap in the face if the head refers to Leo as Louise. People holding different beliefs about abstract concepts such as gender is not surprising and it seems pretty arrogant to consider disagreement a slap in the face, especially when the environment at school was such that Louise felt comfortable asking people to call her Alex and then Leo.
If the head is considered arrogant for having a different belief from the father and Leo about gender, it might well be that the head also brings a lot of positives to the school that will educate and prepare the majority of children for a future in a global, competitive economy, which is usually an important consideration for most parents, even if your focus appears to be on gender issues.
Hopefully there is a lot more to running a school and teaching children skills to become employable than beliefs about gender, and I think in a school it helps children to expose them fairly early to the very real possibility that other people will disagree with their beliefs. IME schools are now emphasising the need for children to learn resilience and learn to deal with disappointment and failure in a constructive way. It may be that due to welfare budget cuts, some people are not getting the extra support they need outside of school to cope in a healthy way with disagreement over their beliefs about abstract concepts such as gender.
-
Gabriella - Robinson - SweetPea
What contact have any of you had with teen and pre-teen transgenders?
-
Apart from a kid at my school in the late 70s who was a girl who dressed and looked and acted exactly like a boy, I don't know any pre-teen trans. There are a few teen trans at my kids' school but I don't know them personally.
So long as schools are fairly supportive of kids exploring their gender, by informally calling them by their chosen name in class, I see no reason for schools to change school records until the student is deemed to have the maturity to make decisions about legally changing their name - which currently seems to be set at age 16.
-
I don't talk about a lot of personal stuff on this public forum but you'd be surprised at what I have encountered and still do.
No-one is saying that poor boy did not have emotional turmoil - or that he lacked proper help - but if you look at his background, there is more to the story than his decision about being trans.
He was only 15 when he died, another year and he might have reached a different decision (noted his GP said the NHS would not fund ops, yet the NHS does fund gender reassigment treatment so the GP may have had reservations). We'll never know now! Apparently he, or Louise as she was then, came out as a lesbian aged 11. His mum dying must have had a devastating effect. The child desperately needed attention! I feel sad that the proper care and attention was not given, or not given in sufficiency, but it isn't an uncommon problem.
(Gabriella is sensible and balanced as well as compassionate in her posts, she talks sense.)
-
Rhiannon
...
If the head is considered arrogant for having a different belief from the father and Leo about gender, it might well be that the head also brings a lot of positives to the school that will educate and prepare the majority of children for a future in a global, competitive economy, which is usually an important consideration for most parents, even if your focus appears to be on gender issues.
Hopefully there is a lot more to running a school and teaching children skills to become employable than beliefs about gender, and I think in a school it helps children to expose them fairly early to the very real possibility that other people will disagree with their beliefs. IME schools are now emphasising the need for children to learn resilience and learn to deal with disappointment and failure in a constructive way. It may be that due to welfare budget cuts, some people are not getting the extra support they need outside of school to cope in a healthy way with disagreement over their beliefs about abstract concepts such as gender.
The issue for me here isn't actually gender at all. It is the total lack of compassion. Even if she felt unable to call Leo by name in school - and I disagree that there is a problem with going from a gender-neutral name to one that is identifiably male as identity is explored - how hard can it be to use the name that he identified by in her 'tribute' to him? It belittled his memory and must have hurt his father terribly. What would it have cost her to make that one small gesture of recognising Leo as he wanted to be at the time of his death, however mixed up she may have regarded him to be? One word. That's all.
-
I don't talk about a lot of personal stuff on this public forum but you'd be surprised at what I have encountered and still do.
No-one is saying that poor boy did not have emotional turmoil - or that he lacked proper help - but if you look at his background, there is more to the story than his decision about being trans.
He was only 15 when he died, another year and he might have reached a different decision (noted his GP said the NHS would not fund ops, yet the NHS does fund gender reassigment treatment so the GP may have had reservations). We'll never know now! Apparently he, or Louise as she was then, came out as a lesbian aged 11. His mum dying must have had a devastating effect. The child desperately needed attention! I feel sad that the proper care and attention was not given, or not given in sufficiency, but it isn't an uncommon problem.
(Gabriella is sensible and balanced as well as compassionate in her posts, she talks sense.)
This young person didn't need attention. Ffs. He needed proper qualified help that goes way beyond 'attention'. He clearly had a very loving dad and family and there is no suggestion of neglect.
Do you connect coming out as gay at a young age with his mother dying?
-
"I would say that the biggest tragedy in this young man's life was losing his mother; given that trans people are often at heightened risk of self harm and suicide (source: Guardian article) then the poor young chap was always up against it. In which case he should have expected extra help from his school."
Fair comments, I'd have thought some sort of counselling be available for such a traumatic bereavement four years ago, about the time he started at the school.
Also seems strange for someone identifying as a boy to still be going to an all girls school - I thought maybe there was no similar boys' or co-ed school in Leo's area but there are two boys' grammar schools. That would all take time though & 6th form college would have been the natural next option for Leo.
All a mess really, none of it handled well but no one person to blame.
Teenage suicides are not uncommon and leave people wondering why & what they might have done better. It is so, so very sad).
Unfortunately schools have limited time and money resources for counselling services on top of education and clubs, so the services are often not very effective and parents I know have opted to get their kids counselling outside of school for various issues, despite the school having given them counselling in school. There is no other option than to get external help once children have expressed thoughts of suicide or seem to be struggling, because parents want to do everything they can to support their child rather than regret that they did not do enough.
Leo seems to have had come through an awful lot and despite his achievements and the support from the school, friends, family and the GP, he felt unable to continue.
From the Etherington/Aiston website:
"It is important for us to remember Leo, not as a troubled teenager, but rather look at the joy he brought in to this world. He could hold his own in political and topical discussions, his bright inquisitive mind often asking really telling questions. He loved reading, especially Harry Potter. Remember his sense of adventure in trying sports such as Canoeing, Ice skating, Zip Wires and climbing. He was passionate about Anime, and TV series such as Doctor Who, Sherlock, Agents of Shield, and films such as the Marvel movies and of course Harry Potter.
Whether we remember Louise or Alex or Leo I hope we can do so with a smile or even laugh at some of the things said or done. If all else fails remember the laugh, it was unique, but you couldn’t help smiling when you heard it."
http://www.11wwd.net/l.html
A lot of schools have a policy that trans children cannot change their names on school records until they are considered sufficiently mature, which currently seems to be age 16, when they can legally change their names without parental consent, so I don't see evidence that the school failed Leo.
-
The issue for me here isn't actually gender at all. It is the total lack of compassion. Even if she felt unable to call Leo by name in school - and I disagree that there is a problem with going from a gender-neutral name to one that is identifiably male as identity is explored - how hard can it be to use the name that he identified by in her 'tribute' to him? It belittled his memory and must have hurt his father terribly. What would it have cost her to make that one small gesture of recognising Leo as he wanted to be at the time of his death, however mixed up she may have regarded him to be? One word. That's all.
On a personal level, she might well have not had a problem referring to him as Leo, but as school head she is following policy. I think Leo had many issues and unfortunately sometimes despite all the support it is difficult for someone to continue, especially during the volatility of being a teenager.
I think the media are focusing on the head's use of the name "Louise" and on certain statements by the father at the inquest to paint a picture of the situation that may not be accurate.
-
Apart from a kid at my school in the late 70s who was a girl who dressed and looked and acted exactly like a boy, I don't know any pre-teen trans. There are a few teen trans at my kids' school but I don't know them personally.
So long as schools are fairly supportive of kids exploring their gender, by informally calling them by their chosen name in class, I see no reason for schools to change school records until the student is deemed to have the maturity to make decisions about legally changing their name - which currently seems to be set at age 16.
That's it! Ignore 'em and they'll be OK!
Wrong! That is part of the problem - trans people, particularly teens are an embarrassment to to the "normal" people around them and they feel isolated and alone!
I spent several years in Oz as a councellor/companion to teen and pre-teen transgenders - I'm considered too old to do it now - and the 'I am alone' and the 'no-one cares' are two of the problems that have to be dealt with.
On the other side of the coin trans persons, especially teen-trans are especially susceptible to the kind of exceptionally viscious bullying of which other teens are capable and some teens revel in inflicting on those who do not, for one reason or another, conform to their idea of normal!
The effects of bullying are cumulative and, in Leo's case, this teacher's attitude may well have been the last straw! Quite literally "the straw that broke the camel's back"!
-
'I am alone' and the 'no-one cares' are statements made by lots of people who are depressed. I'd go as far as saying - most people who are depressed when they are able to speak about it at last! Young transgender people don't have the monopoly on the phrases, far from it.
However you could be right Owlswing, we'll never be sure unless this particular case is explored thoroughly & I doubt we'll hear much more of it now.
-
I think it is hard to comprehend *just* how alone young trans people feel in a world where gender dominates daily life so much, and in a way that often feels dictatorial and even confrontational.
-
I think we are probably overreacting. There are millions of young people living with all kinds of disabilities. No one commits suicide. Everyone learns to live life in their own terms without comparing and feeling sorry for themselves.
Sometimes too much of attention and help can also make people mentally weak and dependent. They start feeling sorry for themselves. Left to themselves, most people get along very well in spite of whatever problems they may have. People have a natural resilience which can get suppressed through too much 'sympathy'.
-
I think we are probably overreacting. There are millions of young people living with all kinds of disabilities. No one commits suicide.
Spoken like someone missing a clue.
-
I think it is hard to comprehend *just* how alone young trans people feel in a world where gender dominates daily life so much, and in a way that often feels dictatorial and even confrontational.
I don't doubt that Rhiannon.
Sririam, being transgender is not in itself a disability, it's just a difference to the 'usual'. If we operate a society where there is room for everyone, they will just be accepted and no longer a matter for so much scrutiny. In time there will be less anguish and, consequently, far less associated mental health problems. Something to work towards in my view.
-
I don't doubt that Rhiannon.
Sririam, being transgender is not in itself a disability, it's just a difference to the 'usual'. If we operate a society where there is room for everyone, they will just be accepted and no longer a matter for so much scrutiny. In time there will be less anguish and, consequently, far less associated mental health problems. Something to work towards in my view.
Its a matter of semantics. Even if transgender is not a disability, the argument still holds.
-
Its a matter of semantics. Even if transgender is not a disability, the argument still holds.
I'm astounded by just how compassionate and wise all that spiritual work that you've done on yourself has made you.
-
I'm astounded by just how compassionate and wise all that spiritual work that you've done on yourself has made you.
Compassion also involves an understanding of the human condition. It does not mean only getting all mushy and gushing over with sympathy. Everyone does not have to react exactly the way you do....you know.
-
Everyone does not have to react exactly the way you do....you know.
And thankfully they don't react the way you do either.
-
I would just like to say that I find Gabriella's comments on this subject to be extremely reasonable and well balanced.
-
Definitely enki. I like the way she looks at topics and thinks carefully about every aspect.
-
You can think about every aspect. Doesn't change the fact that the head's lack of compassion for Leo's wishes after his death (and his father's) is despicable. How anyone can conclude otherwise ('just doing her job') is beyond me. One word. She just had to unbend enough to use one word that was different.
-
Compassion also involves an understanding of the human condition. It does not mean only getting all mushy and gushing over with sympathy. Everyone does not have to react exactly the way you do....you know.
You mistake sympathy for empathy. There is nothing 'mushy' and 'gushy' about what happened here. It's not sentimental. This is the ugly death of a young man who deserved better. If I feel anything it is anger. Who we are, our identity, matters so much, even something as apparently arbitrary as our names. Leo was denied his name even after his death. But hey, only another screwed up young man just like any other, not worthy of your 'sympathy', right, Sriram?
-
That's it! Ignore 'em and they'll be OK!
Wrong! That is part of the problem - trans people, particularly teens are an embarrassment to to the "normal" people around them and they feel isolated and alone!
I spent several years in Oz as a councellor/companion to teen and pre-teen transgenders - I'm considered too old to do it now - and the 'I am alone' and the 'no-one cares' are two of the problems that have to be dealt with.
On the other side of the coin trans persons, especially teen-trans are especially susceptible to the kind of exceptionally viscious bullying of which other teens are capable and some teens revel in inflicting on those who do not, for one reason or another, conform to their idea of normal!
The effects of bullying are cumulative and, in Leo's case, this teacher's attitude may well have been the last straw! Quite literally "the straw that broke the camel's back"!
I don't think there is any evidence that Leo was being bullied - his father said he had a supportive network of friends and family, which he felt comfortable coming out to.
According to my kids, at their all girls school now there are all kinds of support for LGBT issues, a gay head of year, and everyone is so eager to show how cool they are with LGBT that kids are announcing themselves bi-sexual from Year 7 onwards. Even the straight kids are kissing their class mates as part of some game they play involving dares, which causes issues if the person they kissed happens to be the object of affection of another friend who has recently announced themselves bi or gay.
But the trans kids at the school seem to sometimes isolate themselves - they seem to find it difficult to fit in - not really surprising as they identify with a male gender in an all girls school and don't fit in with the look and the interests of the people around them. That is not the fault of the other kids - people gravitate towards social groups with shared interests, and certain people will be on the outside looking in and will isolate themselves. I experimented with being a bit of a Goth at school for a while, and on top of that I wasn't chasing boys so I was on the outside looking in at parties, but I chose that as my preferred option to copying my friends as I just wasn't interested in being boy-crazy or getting off with someone as some kind of badge of honour in order to be more socially accepted and scream and giggle about it afterwards like my friends. In fact when I went to my 10 year school reunion, married and pregnant, a couple of people told me they had always thought I was gay, especially after they heard on the grapevine that one of my best friends was gay. My coping mechanism during the teenage years was whiskey, and then I got to my mid- 20s and increased maturity and responsibilities meant I didn't need that coping mechanism anymore.
If trans people still feel isolated at school, and they are already getting support and not being bullied, they need to be pro-active and help themselves by finding counselling that works for them to change their perspective to find a way to fit into the world they are born into, and find support groups of like-minded people to help them feel less isolated. Especially during the volatile teenage years when having a sense of perspective is really hard.
Constantly castigating non-trans people for issues in the heads of trans people is a waste of time - someone can't fix your head for you and a lot of this is down to perspective and a neediness for external validation and feeling like a victim. If you don't fix yourself - there is clearly a real danger that you will kill yourself - which should give you considerable motivation to help yourself.
Lots of people think I'm weird - I don't feel like I fit in and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way - but it doesn't stop me being proactive and finding lots of ways to be happy without expecting everyone else to do all the work to make me feel comfortable. It's hard when you're a teenager with few responsibilities to give you a sense of purpose, achievement and perspective that stops you obsessing about yourself but that's probably why you need counselling as a teenager to help you stop obsessing about what the world supposedly owes you.
-
You can think about every aspect. Doesn't change the fact that the head's lack of compassion for Leo's wishes after his death (and his father's) is despicable. How anyone can conclude otherwise ('just doing her job') is beyond me. One word. She just had to unbend enough to use one word that was different.
No it isn't despicable. I think your need to paint some caricature of the head is misguided and makes your words about compassion sound hollow. It's difficult to take lessons on compassion from someone who in the same post wrote some pretty vindictive words about another human being.
More to the point, Leo's dad referred to Leo as Louise on his family website - in the page I linked to and quoted. It may well be that school policy will change in the future and technology will allow kids to easily change their names every term without it causing any problems for anyone but I think you are just going along with the media agenda of creating a villain and conflict out of this story in order to sensationalise it, when the whole issue is much more nuanced.
-
I don't think there is any evidence that Leo was being bullied - his father said he had a supportive network of friends and family, which he felt comfortable coming out to.
According to my kids, at their all girls school now there are all kinds of support for LGBT issues, a gay head of year, and everyone is so eager to show how cool they are with LGBT that kids are announcing themselves bi-sexual from Year 7 onwards. Even the straight kids are kissing their class mates as part of some game they play involving dares, which causes issues if the person they kissed happens to be the object of affection of another friend who has recently announced themselves bi or gay.
But the trans kids at the school seem to sometimes isolate themselves - they seem to find it difficult to fit in - not really surprising as they identify with a male gender in an all girls school and don't fit in with the look and the interests of the people around them. That is not the fault of the other kids - people gravitate towards social groups with shared interests, and certain people will be on the outside looking in and will isolate themselves. I experimented with being a bit of a Goth at school for a while, and on top of that I wasn't chasing boys so I was on the outside looking in at parties, but I chose that as my preferred option to copying my friends as I just wasn't interested in being boy-crazy or getting off with someone as some kind of badge of honour in order to be more socially accepted and scream and giggle about it afterwards like my friends. In fact when I went to my 10 year school reunion, married and pregnant, a couple of people told me they had always thought I was gay, especially after they heard on the grapevine that one of my best friends was gay. My coping mechanism during the teenage years was whiskey, and then I got to my mid- 20s and increased maturity and responsibilities meant I didn't need that coping mechanism anymore.
If trans people still feel isolated at school, and they are already getting support and not being bullied, they need to be pro-active and help themselves by finding counselling that works for them to change their perspective to find a way to fit into the world they are born into, and find support groups of like-minded people to help them feel less isolated. Especially during the volatile teenage years when having a sense of perspective is really hard.
Constantly castigating non-trans people for issues in the heads of trans people is a waste of time - someone can't fix your head for you and a lot of this is down to perspective and a neediness for external validation and feeling like a victim. If you don't fix yourself - there is clearly a real danger that you will kill yourself - which should give you considerable motivation to help yourself.
Lots of people think I'm weird - I don't feel like I fit in and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way - but it doesn't stop me being proactive and finding lots of ways to be happy without expecting everyone else to do all the work to make me feel comfortable. It's hard when you're a teenager with few responsibilities to give you a sense of purpose, achievement and perspective that stops you obsessing about yourself but that's probably why you need counselling as a teenager to help you stop obsessing about what the world supposedly owes you.
Simple answer?
You are NOT LGBT and have not the first idea of what is and what is not bullying to a person who IS LGBT!
I HAVE worked with LGBT people and I have friends who are both MTF and FTM and thus have at least some insight into how they feel about the outside world, most of whom, like you, have not the foggiest idea what feels like bullying to an LGBT person!
I am reluctantly, leaving this thread, as it is clear that most posters haven't a clue what being LGBT feels like. This thread has shown that, although things have improved for the LGBT community, there is still a damn long way to go!
-
Simple answer?
You are NOT LGBT and have not the first idea of what is and what is not bullying to a person who IS LGBT!
I HAVE worked with LGBT people and I have friends who are both MTF and FTM and thus have at least some insight into how they feel about the outside world, most of whom, like you, have not the foggiest idea what feels like bullying to an LGBT person!
I am reluctantly, leaving this thread, as it is clear that most posters haven't a clue what being LGBT feels like. This thread has shown that, although things have improved for the LGBT community, there is still a damn long way to go!
There is considerable Equality legislation, education and support and the assistant coroner referred to this at Leo's inquest when she told the family: "You provided her with all the help and support she could have hoped for. I hope you can draw some comfort from that."
Leo's friends called him Leo or Alex. At school our friends would call us whatever name we wanted to be called as part of our sense of identity, and the teachers would call us by the name on the register - it's not some new idea invented to torment trans people.
According to you, as I am not LGBT I don't have the first idea what bullying is to someone who is LGBT. So there isn't a long way to go - there is actually nowhere to go as I am never going to be LGBT and according to you will never have the foggiest idea what feels like bullying to an LGBT person. "Bullying" seems to have a very loose meaning these days and could be defined as someone feeling they are being blocked from getting their own way.
Based on your logic, people who are not LGBT may well ask what they get out of being the whipping boy for all the issues LGBT people have because it is easier for some LGBT supporters to point the finger externally than do the harder job of helping LGBT people to fix what is in their own heads - their feelings of isolation. LGBT are a minority - there are lots of minority groups within society and most people at some point have probably felt like they don't fit in. If they actually want to survive these feelings of isolation rather than kill themselves while the world carries on turning, I suggest trans people and their families figure out a better coping mechanism for feeling different and being ok with that.
-
There is considerable Equality legislation, education and support and the assistant coroner referred to this at Leo's inquest when she told the family: "You provided her with all the help and support she could have hoped for. I hope you can draw some comfort from that."
Leo's friends called him Leo or Alex. At school our friends would call us whatever name we wanted to be called as part of our sense of identity, and the teachers would call us by the name on the register - it's not some new idea invented to torment trans people.
According to you, as I am not LGBT I don't have the first idea what bullying is to someone who is LGBT. So there isn't a long way to go - there is actually nowhere to go as I am never going to be LGBT and according to you will never have the foggiest idea what feels like bullying to an LGBT person. "Bullying" seems to have a very loose meaning these days and could be defined as someone feeling they are being blocked from getting their own way.
Based on your logic, people who are not LGBT may well ask what they get out of being the whipping boy for all the issues LGBT people have because it is easier for some LGBT supporters to point the finger externally than do the harder job of helping LGBT people to fix what is in their own heads - their feelings of isolation. LGBT are a minority - there are lots of minority groups within society and most people at some point have probably felt like they don't fit in. If they actually want to survive these feelings of isolation rather than kill themselves while the world carries on turning, I suggest trans people and their families figure out a better coping mechanism for feeling different and being ok with that.
There iust no point in me talking to you as you have your point of view and are reluctant to even bother trying to find out from any LGBT people what it is like to be one of them.
Without that your views are biased and uninformed.
A friend of mine is FTM, was accepted for treatment four years ago, has all his paperwork properly signed, sealed and up-to-date yet his bank and the passport office are still refusing to change his name and/or sex!
How in the name of all the you hold Holy do you know anything about what that is like?
-
There iust no point in me talking to you as you have your point of view and are reluctant to even bother trying to find out from any LGBT people what it is like to be one of them.
Without that your views are biased and uninformed.
A friend of mine is FTM, was accepted for treatment four years ago, has all his paperwork properly signed, sealed and up-to-date yet his bank and the passport office are still refusing to change his name and/or sex!
How in the name of all the you hold Holy do you know anything about what that is like?
It is unlikely that your friend is being bullied by the Passport Office - it is just administrative people having different views on acceptable documentation because that's just the way human interpretation works. I come across this a lot with the Inland Revenue and also helplines - it is the luck of the draw and just depends on who you get - and it helps to ask them to quote and reference the rule in their official guidance that is preventing them from giving you what you want. If you call the Passport Office again 5 minutes later you might get someone else on the other end who is helpful and/or agrees with you or at least tells you how to fix the issue.
You could go to the Daily Mail to create a sensationalised non-story or you could try showing the below thread on changing name by deed poll and the passport office to your friend and tell them to persevere like the rest of us with the powers that be:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5061050
LGBT are not more special than anyone else - they are biased and uninformed about what it is like to be me, but i don't intend to hold that against them.
-
LGBT are not more special than anyone else - they are biased and uninformed about what it is like to be me, but i don't intend to hold that against them.
Whilst that may, in part be true, the truth of the matter is LGBT people do know what it is like to be heterosexual. After all society certainly in my young days went out of its way to make sure we were as straight as possible. It is a testament to my own fabulousness that society failed miserably.
I do feel that a certain competitiveness has crept into this debate which I feel is wholly unwelcome in what is a sensitive and difficult area. The unfortunate child clearly had a lot of very emotional issues to deal with - not the least of which was losing a parent. It is very difficult to get your head back into the mind of a teenager after all these years passed - but what I do remember was an emotional volatility linked with an absolute conviction that I was right about everything. This, fortunately in my case, only led to some serious embarrassments during the quagmire that is adolescence. That in others it inspires suicidal thoughts, and sadly, as in this case, actions is not to me surprising. What is more worrying is our lack of ability to do anything much about it.
I don't think the headteacher was particularly disrespectful - perhaps lacking in clarity of thought, but just maybe she was upset at the death of a child partly under her care. It's easy in life to jump to conclusions but much less easy to row back from them, as has been evidenced by this discussion.
-
Whilst that may, in part be true, the truth of the matter is LGBT people do know what it is like to be heterosexual. After all society certainly in my young days went out of its way to make sure we were as straight as possible. It is a testament to my own fabulousness that society failed miserably.
I do feel that a certain competitiveness has crept into this debate which I feel is wholly unwelcome in what is a sensitive and difficult area. The unfortunate child clearly had a lot of very emotional issues to deal with - not the least of which was losing a parent. It is very difficult to get your head back into the mind of a teenager after all these years passed - but what I do remember was an emotional volatility linked with an absolute conviction that I was right about everything. This, fortunately in my case, only led to some serious embarrassments during the quagmire that is adolescence. That in others it inspires suicidal thoughts, and sadly, as in this case, actions is not to me surprising. What is more worrying is our lack of ability to do anything much about it.
I don't think the headteacher was particularly disrespectful - perhaps lacking in clarity of thought, but just maybe she was upset at the death of a child partly under her care. It's easy in life to jump to conclusions but much less easy to row back from them, as has been evidenced by this discussion.
If you think I am 'competitive' in this debate then you are wrong - in fact I rarely see discussion as competition. I am not as angry as I was when I first posted my responses, although I still think that the head has been wholly unkind to Leo's memory and to his family. I'm trying to think why it was that I got so angry in the first place. Some of it undoubtedly is that I have teens myself, some is that I know how distressing uncaring and unbending teachers can be, so that's my stuff. But I still come back to this denial of Leo's name. Names are so important and to me it is as though she washy fully acknowledging who he was. That's unkind and disrespectful to his family. End of.
-
Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Doesn't gender reassignment involve sexuality reassignment?
No offence since I have no personal experience in this only views please.
-
Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Sexuality reassignment doesn't work, for starters. The 'best' it does (sarcasm alert) is to give some people the temporary illusion of having changed their sexual orientation almost always to match somebody else's religion-based idiotic ideas about sexuality.
Like creationism, it's a religiously-inspired pseudoscience. It's widely banned for a reason.
-
Sexuality reassignment doesn't work, for starters. The 'best' it does (sarcasm alert) is to give some people the temporary illusion of having changed their sexual orientation almost always to match somebody else's religion-based idiotic ideas about sexuality.
In what what way then does Gender reassignment work? Why is there no illusion of having changed their gender rather than being their original gender with surgery?
-
In what what way then does Gender reassignment work? Why is there no illusion of having changed their gender rather than being their original generation with surgery?
The idea behind gender reassignment is to change the outer to match the inner - so that those who feel their body doesn't match their psychosexual identify are on the same page, so to speak.
-
Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Doesn't gender reassignment involve sexuality reassignment?
No offence since I have no personal experience in this only views please.
This is one of the issues I have with LGBT being under one umbrella title - as the T bit of the LGBT is a fundamentally different issue. That's not to say it shouldn't receive just as much attention/discussion/understanding, it's just that I think lumping it in with LBG issues doesn't help lend clarity to the situation.
I really struggle to understand the transgender issue myself as I see it as much more complicated to deal with than sexuality, so it's not really surprising that there are so many divergent views on the issue.
As Shaker says there is mountains of evidence, both professional & personal to discount sexuality reassignment - equally there is more and more evidence that gender reassignment does indeed improve the lives of those transgendered people involved.
-
This is one of the issues I have with LGBT being under one umbrella title
I struggle with LGBT issues myself.
I mean, I know that the BLT bit is bacon, lettuce and tomato, but what does the G stand for?
And now back to your scheduled thread :D
-
Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Doesn't gender reassignment involve sexuality reassignment?
No offence since I have no personal experience in this only views please.
Neither do I, but I suspect gender reassignment involves dealing with something that the person involved feels is problematic for them in a personal basis, and this no doubt involves a range of aspects that may vary.
Sexual reassignment, from what I've read, seems to be more about people other than the person involved feeling that something needs to be corrected, such as 'curing' people of homosexuality. In my experience most homosexual people I've met are usually comfortable being themselves (there may be exceptions of course) and many of us now recognise that homosexuality is just one aspect of sexuality - I never heard it suggested that people be 'cured' of heterosexuality.
-
Sexual reassignment, from what I've read, seems to be more about people other than the person involved feeling that something needs to be corrected, such as 'curing' people of homosexuality.
I think that this is the nub of it, surely - the whole concept of conversion therapy seems to be predicated on the idea that a gay person has to change to conform to somebody else's opinions about sexuality, whereas gender reassignment is based on a personally-felt disparity about gender.
-
This is one of the issues I have with LGBT being under one umbrella title - as the T bit of the LGBT is a fundamentally different issue. That's not to say it shouldn't receive just as much attention/discussion/understanding, it's just that I think lumping it in with LBG issues doesn't help lend clarity to the situation.
I really struggle to understand the transgender issue myself as I see it as much more complicated to deal with than sexuality, so it's not really surprising that there are so many divergent views on the issue.
As Shaker says there is mountains of evidence, both professional & personal to discount sexuality reassignment - equally there is more and more evidence that gender reassignment does indeed improve the lives of those transgendered people involved.
Agree with this very much, Trent.
I think that increasingly we are realising that while our sexuality is something innate, gender is learned. I look in mystification at trans women such as Kellie Maloney talking about how she now feels like a woman because of how extensive her new wardrobe is, but presumably somewhere down the line she has learned that having a lot of very glamorous clothing is a part of being a woman, or a woman as she wants to be. I don't know. As you say, it is terribly complicated.
-
Neither do I, but I suspect gender reassignment involves dealing with something that the person involved feels is problematic for them in a personal basis, and this no doubt involves a range of aspects that may vary.
Sexual reassignment, from what I've read, seems to be more about people other than the person involved feeling that something needs to be corrected, such as 'curing' people of homosexuality. In my experience most homosexual people I've met are usually comfortable being themselves (there may be exceptions of course) and many of us now recognise that homosexuality is just one aspect of sexuality - I never heard it suggested that people be 'cured' of heterosexuality.
An informed answer, and it suggests that somebody seeking a gender change because they are a man or whatever because ''men are bad'' or'' it's bad being a man'' or ''maleness needs curing'' would receive the same advice as somebody seeking to change sexuality because they thought homosexuality was bad.
And maybe the same argument exists against assisted dying i.e. the danger of the decision being due to peer, familial, social and economic pressure.
I also take Shakers point or argumentum ad non consequentium that bad therapies should not be allowed
However what about the person who presents with an attitude that homosexuality is not bad but that they want to personally change sexuality?
-
This is one of the issues I have with LGBT being under one umbrella title - as the T bit of the LGBT is a fundamentally different issue. That's not to say it shouldn't receive just as much attention/discussion/understanding, it's just that I think lumping it in with LBG issues doesn't help lend clarity to the situation.
Would you say that the T part of LGBT presents some huge issues for LGB where a person changes sex and therefore become effectively heterosexual?
Are you suggesting therefore a cutting adrift of T?
-
Would you say that the T part of LGBT presents some huge issues for LGB where a person changes sex and therefore become effectively heterosexual?
Are you suggesting therefore a cutting adrift of T?
It doesn't work like that. That's a massive simplification.
-
It doesn't work like that. That's a massive simplification.
Please justify.
-
Please justify.
Some trans people are bi. Some are gay. Some are heterosexual.
It's not rocket science. Gender and sexuality aren't the same thing, remember.
-
Would you say that the T part of LGBT presents some huge issues for LGB where a person changes sex and therefore become effectively heterosexual?
Are you suggesting therefore a cutting adrift of T?
More complicated than that - I do know people who are both transgendered and gay. That is they changed from a woman to a man but still fancied men.
I'm not saying cutting adrift - I just am questioning whether the T's best interests are served by belonging to a grouping which has very different issues and concerns. I am not saying that they don't suffer discrimination, because I think they do and I think they suffer significantly more discrimination. So does the distraction of other more 'accepted' groups e.g. LGB work against what needs to happen for Transgendered people?
As I said previously I find the whole issue difficult to deal with - not as in I don't like transgendered people - but as in I don't really understand it. What I know is that advances for gay people have been generally very good, for transgendered less so in terms of attitudes. Does a rethink of how trans people approach the issue in terms of visibility and identity need to be looked at?
As you have probably guessed, I don't know - I'm just putting the doubts and random thoughts that occur to me out there. I don't claim they are correct. I just wonder if there is a better way to help transgendered people in our society.
-
Some trans people are bi. Some are gay. Some are heterosexual.
It's not rocket science. Gender and sexuality aren't the same thing, remember.
I think you are desperately trying to steer us away from something Trent has raised namely not all are comfortable with the term LGBT.
Some transpeople may be Bi and presumably gender change would not change anything their. A Gay man or woman transitioning would become a member of the opposite sex and therefore heterosexual and a heterosexual person transitioning becomes a gay person. The middle group have therefore achieved sexuality reorientation which is what is being argued as undesirable.
-
More complicated than that - I do know people who are both transgendered and gay. That is they changed from a woman to a man but still fancied men.
I'm not saying cutting adrift - I just am questioning whether the T's best interests are served by belonging to a grouping which has very different issues and concerns. I am not saying that they don't suffer discrimination, because I think they do and I think they suffer significantly more discrimination. So does the distraction of other more 'accepted' groups e.g. LGB work against what needs to happen for Transgendered people?
As I said previously I find the whole issue difficult to deal with - not as in I don't like transgendered people - but as in I don't really understand it. What I know is that advances for gay people have been generally very good, for transgendered less so in terms of attitudes. Does a rethink of how trans people approach the issue in terms of visibility and identity need to be looked at?
As you have probably guessed, I don't know - I'm just putting the doubts and random thoughts that occur to me out there. I don't claim they are correct. I just wonder if there is a better way to help transgendered people in our society.
Yes, this makes sense to me. Someone who is both trans and gay or bi will want to be a part of that community. But not all trans people identify as such.
Like you I don't really understand how it must be but from what I have seen the trans experience varies so much for the individuals affected.
-
I think you are desperately trying to steer us away from something Trent has raised namely not all are comfortable with the term LGBT.
Don't be an idiot. I've already agreed with him.
-
Yes, this makes sense to me. Someone who is both trans and gay or bi will want to be a part of that community. But not all trans people identify as such.
Like you I don't really understand how it must be but from what I have seen the trans experience varies so much for the individuals affected.
I'm sorry but you still seem to be minimising that group of people whose change of gender renders them heterosexual. What about them? What do they have in common with LGB?
-
I'm sorry but you still seem to be minimising that group of people whose change of gender renders them heterosexual. What about them? What do they have in common with LGB?
Except that in reality although they are 'rendered' heterosexual, many other heterosexuals feel distinctly uncomfortable with them - so much so that the whole issue of which toilet should be used is raised to the same level as national security in some people's (admittedly, mostly dim-witted Americans) minds. Not to mention a whole host of other prejudices they will suffer. I suspect that is one of the reasons why they are bracketed with LGB, because if there is one thing gay people do know about, it is dim-witted prejudice.
-
Except that in reality although they are 'rendered' heterosexual, many other heterosexuals feel distinctly uncomfortable with them
That's true and probably no distinction is made in these prejudices against gay or straight transsexuals......... but what about attitudes in the LGB community towards people whose change of gender changes them from gay to heterosexual?
-
That's true but what about attitudes in the LGB community towards these folks?
Well that's another can of worms. LGB community does exist - but it is varied. For instance racial prejudice exists as much in the gay community as it does within the wider community. What does that tell you? Gay people can be stupid too. I've never witnessed any overt hostility or prejudice in the circles I inhabit - but then I only know nice people ;)
I would hope that at the very least transgendered people get a kinder more sympathetic approach from most of the LGB community - but that is only a hope. Who knows?
You'd think people who have had massive prejudice held against them would recognize it happening to others. However as we know from human history it doesn't really work that way. :(
-
Whilst that may, in part be true, the truth of the matter is LGBT people do know what it is like to be heterosexual. After all society certainly in my young days went out of its way to make sure we were as straight as possible. It is a testament to my own fabulousness that society failed miserably.
Haha - while I agree on how fabulous you are Trent, I am not sure what you mean by you know what it is like to be heterosexual.
If you mean it in the same way that I know what it is like to be gay - as in the object of my attraction is irrelevant since the physiological and psychological feelings and responses of attraction in the individual are very similar regardless of the sex of the object of the attraction, then I agree. But is there some way that gay people interact with each other and groups that is different from the way heterosexual people interact with each other and in groups? I would have thought that the feelings of being an outsider and not accepted by the group can be experienced by anyone - I am heterosexual but my chosen behaviour of not dating while at school meant I felt an outsider because I had not experienced what my friends had experienced and therefore could not fully participate in the conversation based on first-hand experience. There are many times I don't behave according to conventional gender stereotypes and therefore cannot share experiences with a group of women, who do conform to those stereotypes.
I do feel that a certain competitiveness has crept into this debate which I feel is wholly unwelcome in what is a sensitive and difficult area. The unfortunate child clearly had a lot of very emotional issues to deal with - not the least of which was losing a parent. It is very difficult to get your head back into the mind of a teenager after all these years passed - but what I do remember was an emotional volatility linked with an absolute conviction that I was right about everything. This, fortunately in my case, only led to some serious embarrassments during the quagmire that is adolescence. That in others it inspires suicidal thoughts, and sadly, as in this case, actions is not to me surprising. What is more worrying is our lack of ability to do anything much about it.
It might seem competitive but I think it is important to challenge accepted narratives and acknowledge that there are alternate narratives.
I think one of the problems with teenage immaturity is this feeling that how you feel now or the situation that you find yourself in now is going to be that way forever - and a year feels like forever to a teenager. It takes life experience to figure out that time passes quicker than you anticipated and intense emotions dissipate and therefore it's best to make important decisions once you have cooled down or thought it through and analysed your feelings over a period of time, with input from other people to help clarify your priorities.
I don't think the headteacher was particularly disrespectful - perhaps lacking in clarity of thought, but just maybe she was upset at the death of a child partly under her care. It's easy in life to jump to conclusions but much less easy to row back from them, as has been evidenced by this discussion.
Maybe she was following a policy that she felt was in the best interests of the school as a whole until a new policy was reached. For example, when deciding holiday, study-leave, sick leave policies a business or organisation would balance competing interests, and a particular member of staff might feel the policy does not suit their individual circumstances and feel really upset that the business can't make exceptions for them - but if the organisation make an exception for them, then it puts itself in the position of potentially having to make an exception for every other individual circumstance and managers investigating and arguing the issue with every single employee that thinks they have a chance of being the exception is going to take time away from collecting income to pay salary and overheads or it mean the HR person spends all their time at work and their family relationships suffer. Hence it is better for the organisation or HR person to stick to the existing policy until time is set aside to discuss, investigate, consult and agree on a a new policy.
-
What it must be like to be an autoeroticist with Peter Tatchell, The chief Rabbi, Richard Dawkins and Eddie Izzard standing on the other side of the road together all chanting ''You wanker'' at you.
-
What it must be like to be an autoeroticist with Peter Tatchell, The chief Rabbi, Richard Dawkins and Eddie Izzard standing on the other side of the road together all chanting ''You wanker'' at you.
Have you left the monkey in charge of the keyboard again?
-
If you mean it in the same way that I know what it is like to be gay - as in the object of my attraction is irrelevant since the physiological and psychological feelings and responses of attraction in the individual are very similar regardless of the sex of the object of the attraction, then I agree. But is there some way that gay people interact with each other and groups that is different from the way heterosexual people interact with each other and in groups? I would have thought that the feelings of being an outsider and not accepted by the group can be experienced by anyone - I am heterosexual but my chosen behaviour of not dating while at school meant I felt an outsider because I had not experienced what my friends had experienced and therefore could not fully participate in the conversation based on first-hand experience. There are many times I don't behave according to conventional gender stereotypes and therefore cannot share experiences with a group of women, who do conform to those stereotypes.
No I didn't mean that. I meant that I and many other of my contemporary gay friends were 'trained' to be heterosexual. It was assumed by our parents, our friends, even ourselves (at times in our lives) that we were heterosexual. You never got the reverse of that - you were never assumed to be gay, told that gay was the right way to behave, the right way to exist.
Why do you think so many gay people for so many years could "pass" as heterosexual?
We'd been taught well by our loving society.
As to the bit about teenagers, exactly right.
-
I never understood why the T was included with the LGB as thought it isn't about sexuality but thought I just didn't understsnd the issues fully.
-
Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Doesn't gender reassignment involve sexuality reassignment?
No offence since I have no personal experience in this only views please.
Gender and sexuality can both be expressions of self-identity but sexuality seems to be about expressing the feelings of romantic attraction to physical and non-physical characteristics in someone else, while gender is about expressing your own attributes/ characteristics.
I think it is up to the individual to decide how they want to prioritise the various elements that make up their identity e.g. gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, culture, philosophical, ethical, religious or political beliefs, allegiance to a football team etc etc, so if someone wants to suppress their sexuality in order to prioritise some other aspect of their identity, I think that's up to them. But trying to convince someone that they should prioritise one aspect of their identity over another aspect has lots of potential for harm as many gay people who have undergone sexuality conversion therapy to try to become straight have said they felt harmed by it and concluded they were happier not suppressing that particular aspect of their identity. And teenagers are still trying to form their identities and sense of belonging to groups so they could get really confused / upset about negativity towards romantic attractions they can't control. There are studies where people have said they are happier after the conversion therapy - but unless there were some objective measures of "harm" and "happiness" it's all subjective, as is the idea of identity I suppose.
There is no peer-reviewed evidence that a person can change the attributes that they are consistently physically or emotionally attracted to in order to form a romantic relationship - but these may be a wide range of attributes and some or many of the attributes/ characteristics could be present in both sexes while obviously some are only present in one biological sex.
A family friend's daughter is a girl transitioning to a boy and is getting married to a girl who identifies as straight - so if the family friend's daughter had remained a girl rather than becoming a boy, the two of them would not be in a romantic relationship.
-
Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Doesn't gender reassignment involve sexuality reassignment?
No offence since I have no personal experience in this only views please.
Why would changing the bodies physiology change sexual preferences? I have no personal experience either but don't see thus necessarily follows.
-
No I didn't mean that. I meant that I and many other of my contemporary gay friends were 'trained' to be heterosexual. It was assumed by our parents, our friends, even ourselves (at times in our lives) that we were heterosexual. You never got the reverse of that - you were never assumed to be gay, told that gay was the right way to behave, the right way to exist.
Why do you think so many gay people for so many years could "pass" as heterosexual?
We'd been taught well by our loving society.
As to the bit about teenagers, exactly right.
Not sure I was trained in heterosexuality - if heterosexuality is about romatic feelings to the opposite sex. My experience is that I was trained more about gender and cultural expectations. Anything related to romance or sex was very low down on the list of priorities and if there was any training given, it was about suppressing those feelings. The only time I remember my mother speaking about marriage when I was a kid was to say make sure you have a good education so you can leave an abusive marriage and support yourself if you need to. And as a teenager education and family responsibilities were considered a priority - no one in my community cared about romantic attraction or at least it was rarely spoken about - romance was considered an unnecessary distraction to other more important priorities.
My ethnic and cultural community was not big on romance - in arranged marriages no one is that concerned about whether you are attracted to someone - the love comes after the marriage based on the decision to commit and the shared values and goals. But I watched a lot of old Hollywood movies (e.g. from the 1930s onwards) so I got the gist. And I did not want to go down the arranged marriage route, though some of my peers and relatives did.
-
But I watched a lot of old Hollywood movies (e.g. from the 1930s onwards) so I got the gist.
Not part of the training in heterosexuality that we all received at all, in any way?
-
Not part of the training in heterosexuality that we all received at all, in any way?
No I agree that movies are some form of training - the more gay relationships or trans people are depicted in movies and television the more unremarkable/ acceptable they become.
I think that romantic attraction in movies are rarely realistic as the movie isn't long enough and the focus and emphasis is on one particular aspect of the story that the filmmaker is interested in telling or the focus is on a formula that will make money, which is one of the reasons why most of the romances are heterosexual as the majority of the people buying tickets are heterosexual and they will pay to see movies they can relate to. In Asian countries movies are generally seen as a form of escapism from real life.
ETA: I think I absorbed a lot more cultural and gender training from movies though than I did about sexuality i.e. who the person was romantically attracted to when you take out the gender/ cultural stereotypes.
-
Why would changing the bodies physiology change sexual preferences?
I'm just saying that a Gay man say becoming a woman becomes a heterosexual woman since she is now a woman attracted to men or if a woman attracted to women became a man attracted to women. Both are now heterosexual I thought that would be obvious.
-
I never understood why the T was included with the LGB as thought it isn't about sexuality but thought I just didn't understsnd the issues fully.
I think the main reason has been political - that you have had a number of oppressed minorities, to do with sex/gender, and hence they have been collated in terms of LGBT. In fact, there are plenty of other letters that have been added - for example, I for intersex, Q for queer, A for asexual, and there are others. There is also a historical aspect, you hear people say that at the time of the Stonewall riots (US), trans people were on the barricades with gays and others, but I've no idea if this is accurate, or kind of romantic.
But there are campaigns from time to time to split the movement, since while some categories are about sexuality, T is not. And there are undoubtedly transphobic elements, in fact, there was a fierce rumpus among feminists about this. Try googling terfs, transexclusionary radical feminists.
I find the whole movement very interesting, but it's unclear whether wholesale shifts are going on about personal identity, or whether they are relatively minor. So you hear much talk of non-binary, or gender fluidity, which can be applied to many people, I suppose, and is not trans.
I suppose right wing people and evangelicals tend to see all this as the fall into chaos and moral turpitude, whereas people on the left tend to see it as the opening up of previously suppressed areas of life.
-
I'm just saying that a Gay man say becoming a woman becomes a heterosexual woman since she is now a woman attracted to men or if a woman attracted to women became a man attracted to women. Both are now heterosexual I thought that would be obvious.
But no sexual preferences have been changed. The gay man now woman is still attracted to men and so on. I would have thought that was obvious.
-
He is no longer a gay man so he can no longer do anything as a man.
''Gay man now woman''? How transphobic can you get?
Yeah, there is definitely someone exposing his prejudice and ignorance around here.
-
An informed answer, and it suggests that somebody seeking a gender change because they are a man or whatever because ''men are bad'' or'' it's bad being a man'' or ''maleness needs curing'' would receive the same advice as somebody seeking to change sexuality because they thought homosexuality was bad.
And maybe the same argument exists against assisted dying i.e. the danger of the decision being due to peer, familial, social and economic pressure.
I also take Shakers point or argumentum ad non consequentium that bad therapies should not be allowed
However what about the person who presents with an attitude that homosexuality is not bad but that they want to personally change sexuality?
Well, the critique of gay conversion therapy was that it was out and out homophobic, and produced inane statements, such as 'you're gay because you were abused', or the distant father claptrap. This is why it was banned.
In fact, plenty of clients turn up with confused sexuality, and want to change in some direction. This is not a problem, since the therapist is not pushing in a homophobic direction. I have had clients who were moving in both directions, and of course, bisexual people who are changing direction. But mostly I worked with married clients (to the opposite sex), who were coming out as gay.
-
And we haven't even got onto biphobia yet.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/are-bisexuals-shut-out-of-the-lgbt-club
-
I have just come across this:
https://cbmw.org/nashville-statement/
Ye gods these people are sick morons! >:(
-
Yes, I've read this, although some American friends are saying that it's a sign of weakness. In other words, that white evangelicals are on the back foot, since their campaigns against gays have failed really, so they are now going on the attack.
Amazing that they say not only is gay sinful, but approving of it is. This means, for example, that parents of somebody gay are judged to be sinning, unless they condemn their child. Eh?
I suppose they are also keen Trump supporters. I saw one wry comment: evangelicals hate Jesus.
-
And talking of blows to the LGBT community:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41179976
In this case literal blows.
-
Further to the Nashville Statement, it looks as if Trump is going hell for leather against trans people now, e.g. trying to ban them in the military, and Republican states are now trying to stop bathroom use by trans people.
Bullying at the heart of government, eh?
-
I've just discovered where the Nashville Statement was formally signed.
Posted without comment and with as much of a straight face as I can manage:
The group met last week at the Gaylord Opryland Resort and Convention Center
-
Three points that friends have pointed out to me, that didn't immediately strike me about Nashville stuff - trans people are not condemned in the Bible, so there is no 'proof-text' against them. So they have to squeeze condemnation of that inside the old Adam and Eve stuff, God made us male and female, so you are evil if you feel different.
The second thing is that the 'pray the gay away' stuff is missing. I don't know whether this is because they forgot, or because gay conversion has been panned across the board in psychology as actually dangerous, increasing the risk of suicide and so on.
And intersex is a real problem for creationists, so they tend to skip over it. Why did God make people with both willies and yonis?
-
I have just come across this:
https://cbmw.org/nashville-statement/
Ye gods these people are sick morons! >:(
From the preamble on this statement:
This secular spirit of our age presents a great challenge to the Christian church. Will the church of the Lord Jesus Christ lose her biblical conviction, clarity, and courage, and blend into the spirit of the age? Or will she hold fast to the word of life, draw courage from Jesus, and unashamedly proclaim his way as the way of life? Will she maintain her clear, counter-cultural witness to a world that seems bent on ruin?
I have never, ever, seen the Christian Churh or the Church of Christ referred to as a feminine entity before!
-
I was thinking about the schools that are bringing in gender neutral uniform, (although I think some of them are also trying to avoid endless arguments about girls' skirts being too short), and I wonder how widespread the trans movement is. I heard of one school with 15 trans pupils, but actual statistics usually show it as a very small minority.
I would guess that young people will accept stuff like this, and older people less so. Old categories seem to be breaking down.
-
When I was in OTC at university my uniform was the same as a man's uniform - we just wore combat dress because the uniforms presumably were supposed to be functional, enabling us to train while protecting our skin. Introducing trousers seems functional rather than a gender issue. Do Scottish soldiers train/fight in kilts - and what are the implications of the jokes about kilts and modesty?
Just trying to work out if the gender implication for skirts is that women are presumed to be more interested in being decorative than functional at school? When a person says they feel more like a boy than a girl, that is presumably more than just a way of saying that they want to have short, functional hair and wear functional clothes and not be troubled by jiggling breasts when carrying out daily tasks?
-
I'm not sure if skirts are being seen as decorative. Some parents seem to be objecting to trousers as their daughters want to be feminine, or female. That's not the same as decorative, is it?
I am pretty ignorant about trans stuff, although I was involved in gender studies from the 80s, but trans was not really prominent then. I am curious about it as there seems to be a lot of publicity about it.
I've also been surprised at how accepting the NHS has been about trans. I think there are a few gender clinics, staffed by NHS.
-
I've also been surprised at how accepting the NHS has been about trans. I think there are a few gender clinics, staffed by NHS.
Actually I think there are very few clinics that can be accessed except with private funds which most cannot afford. Certainly I gather that getting support as a teenager if you are transgender can be exceptionally difficult.
-
It is a long process. The Charing Cross Hospital in London has a well known clinic for gender reassignment. Patients are assessed by a multidisciplinary team and have to live as far as possible as a person of the opposite sex for some time, taking hormones etc. The medics need to be as sure as possible that the person understands everything involved in changing their sex because the surgery is so drastic. There must be a lower age limit, I don't know what that is but it makes sense for the patient to be mature.
-
When I was in OTC at university my uniform was the same as a man's uniform - we just wore combat dress because the uniforms presumably were supposed to be functional, enabling us to train while protecting our skin. Introducing trousers seems functional rather than a gender issue. Do Scottish soldiers train/fight in kilts - and what are the implications of the jokes about kilts and modesty?
The last time kilts were worn in combat was early in WWII I believe.
-
It is a long process. The Charing Cross Hospital in London has a well known clinic for gender reassignment. Patients are assessed by a multidisciplinary team and have to live as far as possible as a person of the opposite sex for some time, taking hormones etc. The medics need to be as sure as possible that the person understands everything involved in changing their sex because the surgery is so drastic. There must be a lower age limit, I don't know what that is but it makes sense for the patient to be mature.
They have been doing it a long time, as I think Rachael Padman went there initially, at the start of her transition. She is the physicist who ended up at Newnham College Cambridge, and sparked a controversy, as some people objected to her being a Fellow, as it's an all-female college. But the college accepted her with open arms.
But I think she started in the late 70s. She is a pioneer, along with Jan Morris, whose career is famously described as soldier, Times journalist, father of five, and woman.
-
I'm not sure if skirts are being seen as decorative. Some parents seem to be objecting to trousers as their daughters want to be feminine, or female. That's not the same as decorative, is it?
I don't think so - my husband sometimes looks decorative - especially when he is wearing Asian outfits. So I think men and women can be decorative, but not sure if a skirt is as functional as trousers at a school, especially if it is short and stops you running, using the elevated playground equipment, sitting comfortably on the floor or getting up off the floor, walking upstairs without revealing your underwear to people behind you or it can get blown up in the wind.
I don't see why some parents don't consider trousers to be feminine as lots of women wear them and feminine would mean something associated with or a characteristic of women.
I am pretty ignorant about trans stuff, although I was involved in gender studies from the 80s, but trans was not really prominent then. I am curious about it as there seems to be a lot of publicity about it.
So am I. Presumably there are trans people and non-trans people who both dress fairly gender-neutral and have gender-neutral names, so not sure what it is trans people are looking for to feel that they are at peace with themselves.
-
So am I. Presumably there are trans people and non-trans people who both dress fairly gender-neutral and have gender-neutral names, so not sure what it is trans people are looking for to feel that they are at peace with themselves.
It's a very individual thing from what I have seen. An old friend's daughter is trans and she wears what most horsey people round here do - jeans or jodhpurs, a gilet, wellies and a Barbour. She just looks like everyone else. I think I probably get that more than I do the experience of someone like Kellie Maloney who clearly does equate femininity with glamour. Her experience and understanding of being a woman is very unlike mine.
-
It's a very individual thing from what I have seen. An old friend's daughter is trans and she wears what most horsey people round here do - jeans or jodhpurs, a gilet, wellies and a Barbour. She just looks like everyone else. I think I probably get that more than I do the experience of someone like Kellie Maloney who clearly does equate femininity with glamour. Her experience and understanding of being a woman is very unlike mine.
In certain Asian cultures both men and women can look glamorous for special events, but generally women do end up looking a lot more sparkly. I am so glad to get into comfortable clothes afterwards - in the glamorous outfits I can't walk properly as the shoes don't grip your feet properly, my feet hurt if I am wearing high heels, the material is thin so I can be cold or you have to worry about it ripping. Ok it looks good but totally impractical and it is something I put up with more than enjoy - including the extra time it takes to get ready. I can't relate to the people who enjoy that whole experience.
-
In certain Asian cultures both men and women can look glamorous for special events, but generally women do end up looking a lot more sparkly. I am so glad to get into comfortable clothes afterwards - in the glamorous outfits I can't walk properly as the shoes don't grip your feet properly, my feet hurt if I am wearing high heels, the material is thin so I can be cold or you have to worry about it ripping. Ok it looks good but totally impractical and it is something I put up with more than enjoy - including the extra time it takes to get ready. I can't relate to the people who enjoy that whole experience.
Well yeah, I've done glamour. Not so much these days now I've swapped corporate London for rural living. It doesn't define me though and never has, and where I struggle is when someone seems to think that is what being a woman is about. Maybe it's just the initial excitement of being free to find self expression.
-
I don't think so - my husband sometimes looks decorative - especially when he is wearing Asian outfits. So I think men and women can be decorative, but not sure if a skirt is as functional as trousers at a school, especially if it is short and stops you running, using the elevated playground equipment, sitting comfortably on the floor or getting up off the floor, walking upstairs without revealing your underwear to people behind you or it can get blown up in the wind.
I don't see why some parents don't consider trousers to be feminine as lots of women wear them and feminine would mean something associated with or a characteristic of women.
So am I. Presumably there are trans people and non-trans people who both dress fairly gender-neutral and have gender-neutral names, so not sure what it is trans people are looking for to feel that they are at peace with themselves.
Quite simply they want not to be identified as 'different'! To be accepted as men and women, not as Trans, Tranny, Freak, Poof, Wierdo, Sissy etc ad infinitum.
They want to be able to be what they 'are' and not what the world, particularly some of the religious world, demand that they be.
To put it in a way that you might, just possibly, understand, a forlorn hope I know, they want not to be in a position which is like what Sassy would feel if it were determined that everyone MUST be Haitian VooDoo and if they are not they must be forced to be regardless of how distasteful and traumatic it might be to them!
This is not the best description of the situation but, is, I hope, one that the denizens of this Forum might understand.
-
No I do understand that identity is important to people - as an atheist who became a theist, I am all for people being accepted for whatever identity they want to assume/ identify with, rather than being told you have to be Caucasian or Chinese or Black or gay or straight or whatever based on your biology / environment / nurture you have received. So long as they are law-abiding I don't think it matters if biologically they are not the identity that they are assuming and feel most comfortable with in their heads. We live in a world where we categorise things according to certain characteristics because it keeps things simple, and re-categorising based on what is in someone else's head rather than what you yourself observe takes time and effort.
I think people who make an obvious identity change are unrealistic though if they expect universal acceptance - people are going to notice and a lot of people will naturally react with confusion and suspicion if they are a black person assuming a Chinese identity or a man assuming a female identity, unless the person assuming the new identity has had some excellent surgery and drugs that mask their biology. If there is something unusual about you that does not conform to norms, stereotypes or expectations, people notice and we have evolved to be wary of the 'other' or unknown. I think that some resistance to the change should be expected from some people and some kind of plan to cope with it is helpful for your mental well-being.
I remember being at a Peter Maxwell-Davies 70th birthday party/ concert (I don't like his music) and chatting to a gay man with a beard who was wearing a dress and it was confusing at first trying to get my head around what my eyes were seeing and who this person was presenting themselves as in order to figure out what to talk to them about.
-
Beards have the same wffect on me Gabby.
-
https://www.bristlr.com
-
Well I'm in with somebody or other.
-
Beards have the same wffect on me Gabby.
And it wasn't even a nice dress. Normally at parties you can break the ice by saying I like your dress.
He probably found us equally baffling - a couple of accountants at a party of middle-age/ oldish artsy people.