Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rhiannon on October 11, 2017, 06:33:34 PM
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I could have written some of this. Anyone who says that this isn't how it is for women is lying.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/11/my-whole-life-has-been-marked-by-sexual-harassment---just-like-all-women
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It is exactly how it is.
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Shocking.
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Not to me.
Just ... depressing.
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Rhi,
This is on point:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-41587741/jez-butterworth-s-message-to-harvey-weinstein
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Rhi,
This is on point:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-41587741/jez-butterworth-s-message-to-harvey-weinstein
It's a pity that the American population doesn't deal with its president, who has admitted behaving in a similar manner to that of Harvey Weinstein, in the way it has dealt with the movie mogul.
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It's a pity that the American population doesn't deal with its president, who has admitted behaving in a similar manner to that of Harvey Weinstein, in the way it has dealt with the movie mogul.
I agree.
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And again we've got away from it being the norm, and here, and made it about unusually powerful men and the women that come under their influence one way or another.
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And again we've got away from it being the norm, and here, and made it about unusually powerful men and the women that come under their influence one way or another.
I suppose big cases are easy things to appeal to. Further it's the very widespread nature of this which would seem to mean that unusually powerful men might act this way because at base the only difference from others is the power. Also many of the everyday acts of sexual abuse are either carried out because people feel that they have power, even low level, that gives them immunity, or would like to assert they have such power.
I think there is an idea that because we have dome high profile cases that have resulted in action that people can feel we are changing. That what has happened in the last 50 years and before was then, and we have moved onto some sunlit uplands of morality. And yet as this idea is touted, we see new impacts of the availability of porn and the sexualization of children. When that is pointed out as if it is a sign of a new depravity, it's vacuous. It's the old depravity in a new Donna Karen dress asking for the old abuse.
ETA: And there is the use of the various grooming cases to blame other subcultures, while we ignore the complicity if some in our own culture where those who ate barely out of childhood can be regarded as sluts to be either ignored or dismissed. So much of these are feedback loops that allow the continued casual sexual abuse of women.
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And again we've got away from it being the norm, and here, and made it about unusually powerful men and the women that come under their influence one way or another.
The other day I heard part* of a dial-in talk show where mothers described how their junior school children were being sexually assaulted and bullied, mainly by other under 10s.
It was clear that no one, parents, teachers, police had any idea of how to deal with this or protect these children and I suspect this continues on in a similar way for teens and adults. It is only the rare case, usually rape, that eventually ends up in court. Occurrences were not even documented.
Focus on the high profile cases could be used to get the issue out for discussion, but also ends up being a distraction from the daily harassment.
Probably we need to accept that this is how people are, then, to change it, we need zero tolerance and immediate intervention in all occurrences, even given the possible downsides.
* I confess my immediate reaction was: this is horrible and not something I want to listen to or think about.
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I didn't notice much sexual bullying at primary age, and not for my kids either although every other kind was rife.
At senior school though sexual assault was just something that happened. I was sexually assaulted in a park by someone the same age as me and I didn't dream of reporting it because the message I got was that kids didn't get punishec for assaulting other kids - if it has been an adult I'd have done differently. I'm afraid it affected my parenting - I wouldn't let my kids go to the park alone not because I was afraid of what adults might do, but of what their peers could, and in my experience probably would do.
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Men should fucking weep!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41605935
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Men should fucking weep!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41605935
Everyone should weep at that regardless of sex. But I don't feel any association with the perpetrators just because they are the same sex as me.
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Men should fucking weep!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41605935
Terrible. >:(
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Everyone should weep at that regardless of sex. But I don't feel any association with the perpetrators just because they are the same sex as me.
My first thought too. I'm not a believer in collective guilt.
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Everyone should weep at that regardless of sex. But I don't feel any association with the perpetrators just because they are the same sex as me.
Mmm I don't think it's about collective guilt but rather a collective issue. It's overwhelmingly men that carry out this kind ot attack and the toleration of low level sexual abuse as covered in the OP is part of that.
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Mmm I don't think it's about collective guilt but rather a collective issue. It's overwhelmingly men that carry out this kind ot attack and the toleration of low level sexual abuse as covered in the OP is part of that.
I still disagree.
Certainly I'm in that set known as 'men', but the clowns in the article just linked to don't act for me or speak for me or have any affinity with me beyond the same complement of chromosomes. That goes for the vast majority of men too.
On the other hand if by a collective issue you mean it behoves all men - when necessary and where it'll do the most good - to speak up and speak out against inappropriately sexual behaviour, to condemn it and to be seen to condemn it, then obviously yes, of course. A certain tendency toward what can look like corporate guilt still concerns me, though.
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I still disagree.
Certainly I'm in that set known as 'men', but the clowns in the article just linked to don't act for me or speak for me or have any affinity with me beyond the same complement of chromosomes. That goes for the vast majority of men too.
On the other hand if by a collective issue you mean it behoves all men - when necessary and where it'll do the most good - to speak up and speak out against inappropriately sexual behaviour, to condemn it and to be seen to condemn it, then obviously yes, of course. A certain tendency toward what can look like corporate guilt still concerns me, though.
I presume you meant collective, rather than corporate, guilt? The point again is that this idea that it's such a rare group of men, or it's so entirely aberrant doesn't seem to me to be borne out. Hence the OP in the thread. And what you see as a 'tendency' may well concern you but seems entirely irrelevant to what I was raising. We obviously don't do enough to combat casual everyday sexism and harassment, and I don't feel it as easy to give myself the little pat on my back that you feel confident to give yourself about whether I fo enough.
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I presume you meant collective, rather than corporate, guilt? The point again is that this idea that it's such a rare group of men, or it's so entirely aberrant doesn't seem to me to be borne out. Hence the OP in the thread. And what you see as a 'tendency' may well concern you but seems entirely irrelevant to what I was raising. We obviously don't do enough to combat casual everyday sexism and harassment
Who's the 'we' and what can 'we' meaningfully do?
I don't feel it as easy to give myself the little pat on my back that you feel confident to give yourself about whether I fo enough.
Up to you. My hands are clean and conscience clear.
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Jokes about the female body and comments about sex acts by females (famous or otherwise) have been posted on this forum and I find them a form of aggression. But I guess I should just suck that one up because that is what woman are supposed to do.
Just a joke, right?
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Who's the 'we' and what can 'we' meaningfully do?Up to you. My hands are clean and conscience clear.
I am more interested in how we, as a society, improve the situation than thinking just how wonderful I am.
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I am more interested in how we, as a society, improve the situation than thinking just how wonderful I am.
Beyond not acting like an inappropriate arsehole to/without/around women I'm all ears as to your suggestions.
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Jokes about the female body and comments about sex acts by females (famous or otherwise) have been posted on this forum and I find them a form of aggression. But I guess I should just suck that one up because that is what woman are supposed to do.
Just a joke, right?
No. Which is part of the problem. We allow things because we are not censoring on the basis of offence, but that then means we might be allowing things that are harmful in other ways. There isn't an easy way of deciding what is 'wrong' in these circumstances. But that isn't a reason not to try. One of the issues that we (and by this we I mean the mods) have tried to deal with more proactively for a while is accusations and jokes about mental health, perhaps we need to do the sane about casual sexism.
I am deeply conscious of the fact that the mod team is all male currently and we have tried to change that in the past but to no avail. In part the ratio of men to women on the forum causes this problem, and not every one wants to be a mod, and to be honest, I often don't want to be one either.
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Beyond not acting like an inappropriate arsehole to/without/around women I'm all ears as to your suggestions.
Surely though what being an 'inappropriate arsehole' is what people define in so many different ways, that having it as some sort of principle is meaningless?
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I found it difficult as a mod not to leave myself open to accusations of pushing my own agenda of some kind of prudish feminism. So I didn't act on the sexist jokes made here, some which I felt disgusted by.
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Surely though what being an 'inappropriate arsehole' is what people define in so many different ways, that having it as some sort of principle is meaningless?
Absolutely - exactly what I said over on the Ted Heath thread: http://tinyurl.com/y6wtymc9
The law can try to define sexual harassment till the cows come home but it'll never cover every possible scenario - which ultimately means every possible person and their threshold for what they think is or isn't sexual harassment.
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Absolutely - exactly what I said over on the Ted Heath thread: http://tinyurl.com/y6wtymc9
The law can try to define sexual harassment till the cows come home but it'll never cover every possible scenario - which ultimately means every possible person and their threshold for what they think is or isn't sexual harassment.
Which is why I would never claim to have clean hands or conscience, because I may well not be judging the effect of my actions without confirmation bias. And apoligies, that sounds much more like point scoring than I want to but I am just trying to make the point that we, as individuals, have to be wary of thinking that we are doing everything that we can.
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I found it difficult as a mod not to leave myself open to accusations of pushing my own agenda of some kind of prudish feminism. So I didn't act on the sexist jokes made here, some which I felt disgusted by.
This relates back to the issue we have wrestled with before about whether there is a line where people can be more offensive about groups than individual members, and whether that is just as bad. I think we are much more likely to stop obviously racist comments than sexist ones but I may be wrong.
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Which is why I would never claim to have clean hands or conscience, because I may well not be judging the effect of my actions without confirmation bias.
Unfortunately that only leads you down the infinite rabbit hole of being able to say to someone who believes they're without confirmation bias: well, that's exactly what somebody with confirmation bias would say, isn't it - MRDA (Mandy Rice Davies applies).
Joseph Heller made himself a fortune with a novel about this.
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I concede that this may be thought to be picking a too obvious example by far (the D**** M***, home of the infamous 'sidebar of shame') but while searching online for something completely innocuous (Penny Dreadful, actually) I turned up an article about one of the show's (female) stars - Eva Green - and featured on the same page were the following links:
Lauren Silverman puts on a busty display in a strapless dress as she supports honoree Simon Cowell at Music Industry Trusts Award ceremony
Jennifer Lawrence oozes sex appeal in racy thigh-boots for dinner with Liam Hemsworth ahead of The Hunger Games Mockingjay: Part 2 world premiere in Berlin
I probably don't need to say that the main article concentrated on the above-mentioned actress's clothing and hair.
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Ffs!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41606854
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Ffs!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41606854
she's been allocated as part of my recovery program ,can't wait for my home visit 😱😆
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she's been allocated as part of my recovery program ,can't wait for my home visit 😱😆
I know that you mean this in a jokey fashion but there is an issue that this is part of the whole problem where women, and men, are assaulted and meant to laugh it off.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/10/16/me-too-alyssa-milano-urged-assault-victims-to-tweet-in-solidarity-the-response-was-massive/
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I know that you mean this in a jokey fashion but there is an issue that this is part of the whole problem where women, and men, are assaulted and meant to laugh it off.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/10/16/me-too-alyssa-milano-urged-assault-victims-to-tweet-in-solidarity-the-response-was-massive/
yes it was meant as a joke when I saw the image
My daughter who lives and works in a global company has finally managed to bring a case against her line manager who was causing her considerable distress to the extent I was prepared to visit her place of work and sort it out for good
As part of the resolution he has been moved to another department for now
My son in law has also had to curb his actions !
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She lives in Australia where such things are rife btw
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yes it was meant as a joke when I saw the image
My daughter who lives and works in a global company has finally managed to bring a case against her line manager who was causing her considerable distress to the extent I was prepared to visit her place of work and sort it out for good
As part of the resolution he has been moved to another department for now
My son in law has also had to curb his actions !
But surely you see that treating 'psycho nympho' as a jcase your daughtsr oke could also make women reading that uncomfortable? I think sometimes people hide behind the saw 'offence is taken, not given' to avoid that in many cases it's not a matter of offence but that that have said something quite creepy and knew they were doing it.
I hope that the case that your daughter has raised gets to a satisfactory conclusion.
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But surely you see that treating 'psycho nympho' as a jcase your daughtsr oke could also make women reading that uncomfortable? I think sometimes people hide behind the saw 'offence is taken, not given' to avoid that in many cases it's not a matter of offence but that that have said something quite creepy and knew they were doing it.
I hope that the case that your daughter has raised gets to a satisfactory conclusion.
i think I got the gist of that NS
In my daughters case she was frequently sent moving cartoon images of an ejaculating penis
If he had sent hem to me I would have ripped his off
Her husband is a fitness instructor and was asked to not get involved for his own protection
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i think I got the gist of that NS
In my daughters case she was frequently sent moving cartoon images of an ejaculating penis
If he had sent hem to me I would have ripped his off
Her husband is a fitness instructor and was asked to not get involved for his own protection
Violence would make you as bad as that creep.
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i think I got the gist of that NS
In my daughters case she was frequently sent moving cartoon images of an ejaculating penis
If he had sent hem to me I would have ripped his off
Her husband is a fitness instructor and was asked to not get involved for his own protection
That's horrendous.
And I know that my first inclination should anyone have done something similar to my wife would be the same as yours. And yet the whole violent reaction seems a almost proprietorial, and more about making you or I feel good. But it's the times when I have let comments go from blokes in groups I have been in that I worry about are part of the whole 'it's just banter' approach that can make people feel threatened.
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Violence would make you as bad as that creep.
no Floo , it would not . Your judgement on this matter is seriously flawed
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no Floo , it would not . Your judgement on this matter is seriously flawed
So you think it ok to beat someone up do you?
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So you think it ok to beat someone up do you?
do not use that tone with me . Your question is invalid !
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do not use that tone with me . Your question is invalid !
No it isn't? You said you would rip off the pervert's penis, so how does that make you better than him?
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That's horrendous.
And I know that my first inclination should anyone have done something similar to my wife would be the same as yours. And yet the whole violent reaction seems a almost proprietorial, and more about making you or I feel good. But it's the times when I have let comments go from blokes in groups I have been in that I worry about are part of the whole 'it's just banter' approach that can make people feel threatened.
i tend to agree with you however some courses of action archive good results
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No it isn't? You said you would rip off the pervert's penis, so how does that make you better than him?
why do you keep introducing moral compitition into this?
Also I couldn't care less what you think of my reaction ,so no point asking me to justify it
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i tend to agree with you however some courses of action archive good results
i don't think adding violence to sexual harassment is one of those courses. And again I am more interested here in why you seem to think that banter, like uour earlier comment, that objectifies women isn't contributing to the culture in which people have thought the sort of sexual harassment your daughter suffered is acceptable.
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why do you keep introducing moral compitition into this?
Also I couldn't care less what you think of my reaction ,so no point asking me to justify it
Tell yourself that when you are serving a prison term if you carried out your threat. Two wrongs don't make a right, as the saying goes.
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i don't think adding violence to sexual harassment is one of those courses. And again I am more interested here in why you seem to think that banter, like uour earlier comment, that objectifies women isn't contributing to the culture in which people have thought the sort of sexual harassment your daughter suffered is acceptable.
sorry I have misunderstood , we are in total agreement on this 👍
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sorry I have misunderstood , we are in total agreement on this 👍
So you agree that your earlier comment was inappropriate?
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Tell yourself that when you are serving a prison term if you carried out your threat. Two wrongs don't make a right, as the saying goes.
and once again you give me the opportunity to say , you have a very high opinion of yourself don't you !
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So you agree that your earlier comment was inappropriate?
yes , what do want ? I should go out and whip myself 🙌
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yes , what do want ? I should go out and whip myself 🙌
No, It's just that it happens so rarely that someone, particularly on here, admits they were wrong that I needed to check. Kudos to you for doing it!
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No, It's just that it happens so rarely that someone, particularly on here, admits they were wrong that I needed to check. Kudos to you for doing it!
face it , deal with it , move on .
that has served me well over the years NS 8)
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Found this on the #MeToo thread on twitter. I half wish I could say I find the thread shocking but I don't.
https://medium.com/@hels/20-things-men-can-do-rtfn-to-support-women-beyond-just-literally-ceasing-to-sexually-harass-us-b06da5ff90f
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I know that if I'm open about my past it will be used against me, because it's already happened. Women can't speak out because if we do we get blamed, shamed and threatened. Even the justice system supports the blaming and shaming of women and actually of victims generally.
We should be able to talk about our experiences safely in an adult space such as this without fear. And we can't.
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I think the issues with the justice system are where effort needed concentrated. I'm not sure I regard this forum as an adult space and indeed think of it more akin to a cross between a nursing home and a nursery.
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I agree with Rhiannon that women get blamed for sexual assaults against them, which is in fact, a fresh assault. However, I don't see the internet as a safe place at all, and I would not share some of my experiences and thoughts. There are too many weirdos and trolls out there, and just nasty people.
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I agree, Wiggs, and yet if people can't speak out then abuse stats hidden.
It's not just sexual assault victims who get victim shamed, but dv victims too. And if they try to protect their kids they get accused of 'parental alienation' and the steps that they take to get help are used as evidence of that. And then the abuse continues, state sanctioned.
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Had a weird few minutes elsewhere on social media where a friend had tried to start a Me Neither claim for men who could say they hadn't harassed any woman to show that not all men were dicks. Another female friend picked him up on it and I agreed that a self declaration of innocence was worthless. They came close to falling our, and the post has now been removed. Seems to me an odd reaction to #MeToo
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I come across domestic violence and various types of abuse in the course of my work. Agree completely that victims must speak out.
However I don't know that a "Religion and Ethics Forum" is the place for personal disclosures.
There could be a section only seen by forum members, where members can offload and share but what worries me is that it might attract all sorts of bad advice from people not qualified to give advice.
There are forums dedicated to survivors of abuse and those in abusive relationships, with strict guidelines.
It's important never to give away anything that could identify us, such as precise location, profession, family. Apart from having a vague idea about where some posters live (e.g. Scotland, Wales, Greater London), I would not recognise anyone away from this forum and that's how it should be, to keep us private and safe.
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Just saw your post NS. We know not all men are dicks, it's the few that are that cause problems & unfortunately they pop up in all walks & at all times of life. Your F/B friend was silly to start such a claim, I daresay it was just a reaction & you won't hear more from him about it.
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Mmm if it's only a few men then they are working very hard to sexually harass and assault quite how many women ate calling it out on #MeToo. Note I am not saying that all men are dicks but the idea that this'd is just a few men really doesn't chime with my experience.
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Mmm if it's only a few men then they are working very hard to sexually harass and assault quite how many women ate calling it out on #MeToo. Note I am not saying that all men are dicks but the idea that this'd is just a few men really doesn't chime with my experience.
Agree with this.
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Minority might be a better word than, "Few".
I don't know the statistics though - & would they be reliable if I did? I've come across many cases but they haven't jaundiced my view of men generally. Most men are disgusted at the antics of some of their sex & feel ashamed.
(Has to be said that DV and sexual harassment is also carried out by women against men and boys. Less often but happens, equally disgusting. Often goes unreported.)
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I come across domestic violence and various types of abuse in the course of my work. Agree completely that victims must speak out.
However I don't know that a "Religion and Ethics Forum" is the place for personal disclosures.
There could be a section only seen by forum members, where members can offload and share but what worries me is that it might attract all sorts of bad advice from people not qualified to give advice.
There are forums dedicated to survivors of abuse and those in abusive relationships, with strict guidelines.
It's important never to give away anything that could identify us, such as precise location, profession, family. Apart from having a vague idea about where some posters live (e.g. Scotland, Wales, Greater London), I would not recognise anyone away from this forum and that's how it should be, to keep us private and safe.
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Just saw your post NS. We know not all men are dicks, it's the few that are that cause problems & unfortunately they pop up in all walks & at all times of life. Your F/B friend was silly to start such a claim, I daresay it was just a reaction & you won't hear more from him about it.
Of course there are safety reasons as to why people have to be careful when disclosing things such as dv, but I've been open here about the fact I'm sexual assault whatever and I suspect most females are to some degree or other, and a fair few men too. And why the fuck should survivors *only* disclose on dedicated fora? Yes, I know that safety is some of it, but a whole load is also to do with the fact that is just isn't nice to think of someone you 'know' online as having gone through something that is pretty horrific to think about.
If 'unqualified advice' is such a concern then I suggest we ban all mention of MH problems here too. Or is to ok to disclose those do you think?
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For her book Kissing The Hag Emma Restall Orr asked 100 women if they had been raped. A third had, another third said that they had consented to unwanted sex in order to avoid rape - I suspect that by our understanding of rape now quite a few of the second category would count as rape victims. That's without those who had coercive sex in relationships.
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Safety Work.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41614720
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Of course there are safety reasons as to why people have to be careful when disclosing things such as dv, but I've been open here about the fact I'm sexual assault whatever and I suspect most females are to some degree or other, and a fair few men too. And why the fuck should survivors *only* disclose on dedicated fora? Yes, I know that safety is some of it, but a whole load is also to do with the fact that is just isn't nice to think of someone you 'know' online as having gone through something that is pretty horrific to think about.
If 'unqualified advice' is such a concern then I suggest we ban all mention of MH problems here too. Or is to ok to disclose those do you think?
Why are you having a go at me? I merely expressed my concerns about safety which I thought I was entitled to do but ultimately it's not up to me who posts what. I certainly didn't think I said anything to provoke such an outburst, very sorry though I didn't mean harm.
Perhaps I should stay away from such threads but they touch me too!
Goodnight.
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I don't see Rhiannin's post as having a go at you, Robinson. Just disagreeing strongly
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For her book Kissing The Hag Emma Restall Orr asked 100 women if they had been raped. A third had, another third said that they had consented to unwanted sex in order to avoid rape - I suspect that by our understanding of rape now quite a few of the second category would count as rape victims. That's without those who had coercive sex in relationships.
And most harassment and abuse will not approach rape.
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And most harassment and abuse will not approach rape.
Yes, absolutely.
I am so angry right now. Not with anyone in particular, but because this is how it is.
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Why are you having a go at me? I merely expressed my concerns about safety which I thought I was entitled to do but ultimately it's not up to me who posts what. I certainly didn't think I said anything to provoke such an outburst, very sorry though I didn't mean harm.
Perhaps I should stay away from such threads but they touch me too!
Goodnight.
Rhiannon made a good point, you are being far too touchy, I don't think she was having a go at you at all. ::)
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Safety Work.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41614720
Janey Godley, comedian and Trump teaser, is promoting an idea that if you are a woman and see another woman sitting alone on public transport you sit with her. I have to admit that when I get on public transport and see a woman on her own Ithen try and find the seat furthest away looking away.
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We do things all the time. I vary my driving and dog walking routes. I don't like it if I see the same car in my rear view mirror for too long if I'm going down some of the more remote lanes round here. My dad has told me that he's pulled over when he's realised he keeps taking the same turnings as a lone female in front of him. On public transport it's earphones in, head down. Walking anywhere after dark, mobile phone in hand.
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Janey Godley, comedian and Trump teaser, is promoting an dea that if you are a woman and see another woman sitting alone on public transport you sit with her. I have to admit that when I get on public transport and see a woman on her own Ithen try and find the seat furthest away looking away.
As far away as possible isn't necessary. A few seats away, yes. No eye contact is preferable.
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We do things all the time. I vary my driving and dog walking routes. I don't like it if I see the same car in my rear view mirror for too long if I'm going down some of the more remote lanes round here. My dad has told me that he's pulled over when he's realised he keeps taking the same turnings as a lone female in front of him. On public transport it's earphones in, head down. Walking anywhere after dark, mobile phone in hand.
Walking down a street at night with a woman ahead, I've stopped and tried to work out alternative routes, or speeded up at well lit bits to get ahead while looking away - which makes seeing where you are going a challenge
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The thing is we are expected to take responsibility for our own safety. Don't get drunk, don't wear 'provocative' clothing, get cabs home, wear shoes you can run in, don't draw attention to yourself, vary your route, don't walk home alone...and if/when something does happen then we think 'but I shouldn't have been there/worn that/done that, I wasn't being 'responsible'.'
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Walking down a street at night with a woman ahead, I've stopped and tried to work out alternative routes, or speeded up at well lit bits to get ahead while looking away - which makes seeing where you are going a challenge
So effectively your freedom is curtailed too. It's good that you are considerate though, it makes a difference.
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So effectively your freedom is curtailed too. It's good that you are considerate though, it makes a difference.
I suppose you are right, it is a curtailment of my freedom. Just never thought of it that way. There was a time when I thought that I would get to a combination of age and respectability that I could ignore such considerations but I then realised that there is no such thing.
As an aside, my partner was a few years ago walking home late at night and a bloke asked if he could walk with her because he didn't know the area and it was a bit dodgy to be a single bloke walking on your own.
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The thing is we are expected to take responsibility for our own safety. Don't get drunk, don't wear 'provocative' clothing, get cabs home, wear shoes you can run in, don't draw attention to yourself, vary your route, don't walk home alone...and if/when something does happen then we think 'but I shouldn't have been there/worn that/done that, I wasn't being 'responsible'.'
True. I do all these things because I am aware there are entitled, predatory people out there and I can't distinguish them from non-predatory people and I might not have time to react fast enough to prevent something bad happening once I am aware of someone's intentions. But there are times I don't even think about this stuff because I feel safe in a particular situation or environment. Similar to most women I have been assaulted in some way - the first time was probably age 8 and walking home from school with a friend after a club and seeing a man leaning against a tree masturbating and asking us our names. But even younger than that 2 boys called me racist names and spat in my face.
It makes me aware of dangers - I think I have just accepted the world can be a dangerous or unpleasant place for everyone and whatever can be done to train people not to behave in a predatory way towards other is to be welcomed. I do not know why some people have a predatory instinct while others do not.
In terms of driving, if I am driving an expensive car I don't worry about being attacked because I am a woman, I think that I might get car-jacked because of the car - so I take precautions. I feel the same way if I have an expensive item on me. Any precautions I take are based on my assessment of my ability to defend myself if a situation occurred - and being smaller than a lot of other people I probably have to take extra precautions that my husband does not have to worry about.
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So effectively your freedom is curtailed too. It's good that you are considerate though, it makes a difference.
As an aside, my partner was a few years ago walking home late at night and a bloke asked if he could walk with her because he didn't know the area and it was a bit dodgy to be a single bloke walking on your own.
Perhaps the least satisfactory aspect of being a man today is that you are constantly an object of suspicion. I assume that it is a problem created by the gutter press.
Pretty well all the men that I come in contact with (as a man) are decent, considerate, caring individuals, but if, for instance, we see a child in distress we are frequently reluctant to offer help because - as everyone knows who reads the Daily Grot - there is a paedophile waiting on every street corner. I am male, and that is the sole qualification for being suspect. If I come to the aid of a woman in distress, I have an ulterior motive in offering help.
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Perhaps the least satisfactory aspect of being a man today is that you are constantly an object of suspicion. I assume that it is a problem created by the gutter press.
Pretty well all the men that I come in contact with (as a man) are decent, considerate, caring individuals, but if, for instance, we see a child in distress we are frequently reluctant to offer help because - as everyone knows who reads the Daily Grot - there is a paedophile waiting on every street corner. I am male, and that is the sole qualification for being suspect. If I come to the aid of a woman in distress, I have an ulterior motive in offering help.
I agree it is sad that all men appear to be tarred with the same brush. :o
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Yes. As part of my last job we received sexism, racism etc awareness training. When the trainer heard we had a lone female working in my lab she stated that that female must feel isolated and threatened, not might or could but must. I said I didn't think she did and was told I was wrongas she was bound to.
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Yes. As part of my last job we received sexism, racism etc awareness training. When the trainer heard we had a lone female working in my lab she stated that that female must feel isolated and threatened, not might or could but must. I said I didn't think she did and was told I was wrongas she was bound to.
It's one of the standard tropes of feminism a la Julie Bindel and her ilk that people (especially women) are victims if and only if and when Bindel says they are victims. What the people themselves say is wholly irrelevant.
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It's one of the standard tropes of feminism a la Julie Bindel and her ilk that people (especially women) are victims if and only if and when Bindel says they are victims. What the people themselves say is wholly irrelevant.
when I had a proper job some years ago I was required to asses performance of the team members , half of whom were women
This involved the two of us spending hours together in a car covering a large geographical area. On one occasion it was late afternoon and the very attractive woman in her mid thirties decided she wanted to change her snagged tights. I was driving and said I would find a convenient place to stop so she could do it
She said not to bother ,she would do it while we were travelling. She took a new pack from her bag, took her shoes off , put her feet up on the dashboard , pulled her skirt up round her waist lifted her bum off the seat and wriggled her tights over her knees complete with caught up knickers until they were off her legs .
I was trying not to look and in my shocked amazement almost hit the car in front.
She made some jokey comment about her knickers coming off in the procedure then carried on putting the new tights on without pants .
I never told anyone at work about this incident for fear of incriminating myself and putting my job at risk.
Do you think I was a victim in this case ?
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Perhaps the least satisfactory aspect of being a man today is that you are constantly an object of suspicion. I assume that it is a problem created by the gutter press.
Pretty well all the men that I come in contact with (as a man) are decent, considerate, caring individuals, but if, for instance, we see a child in distress we are frequently reluctant to offer help because - as everyone knows who reads the Daily Grot - there is a paedophile waiting on every street corner. I am male, and that is the sole qualification for being suspect. If I come to the aid of a woman in distress, I have an ulterior motive in offering help.
This reads to me that women are concerned for their safety bevause of an irrational fear created by the 'gutter press'?
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I go for my daily walk about 6-45am, at this time of year it is quite dark, it never has occurred to me to be concerned about my safety, I don't even take my phone. I do carry my walking stick, which I would put to good use, if absolutely necessary.
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Perhaps the least satisfactory aspect of being a man today is that you are constantly an object of suspicion. I assume that it is a problem created by the gutter press.
Pretty well all the men that I come in contact with (as a man) are decent, considerate, caring individuals, but if, for instance, we see a child in distress we are frequently reluctant to offer help because - as everyone knows who reads the Daily Grot - there is a paedophile waiting on every street corner. I am male, and that is the sole qualification for being suspect. If I come to the aid of a woman in distress, I have an ulterior motive in offering help.
I wouldn't automatically assume that any man coming to my aid had an ulterior motive but it would not be sensible to rule out that possibility and take sensible precautions. I would say something similar about women - they could have ulterior motives so it would be wise to take sensible precautions and not be too trusting of women.
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I go for my daily walk about 6-45am, at this time of year it is quite dark, it never has occurred to me to be concerned about my safety, I don't even take my phone. I do carry my walking stick, which I would put to good use, if absolutely necessary.
so violence is okay then ?
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Self defence is different from retribution.
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so violence is okay then ?
Sometimes it is indeed okay.
Violence would be going out in public with a walking stick looking to hit someone, either to rob them or simply to assault them just because.
Defending yourself with a walking stick with reasonable force from someone attacking you is an entirely different thing. Most people understand this; the law certainly recognises it.
In any case you certainly seem to think that violence is sometimes okay, since twice on this thread you've referred to resorting to it:
My daughter who lives and works in a global company has finally managed to bring a case against her line manager who was causing her considerable distress to the extent I was prepared to visit her place of work and sort it out for good
In my daughters case she was frequently sent moving cartoon images of an ejaculating penis
If he had sent hem to me I would have ripped his off
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Sometimes it is indeed okay.
Violence would be going out in public with a walking stick looking to hit someone, either to rob them or simply to assault them just because.
Defending yourself with a walking stick with reasonable force from someone attacking you is an entirely different thing. Most people understand this; the law certainly recognises it.
In any case you certainly seem to think that violence is sometimes okay, since twice on this thread you've referred to resorting to it:
yes , the comment was sarcastically directed at Floo !
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Self defence is different from retribution.
Exactly, I would only use force in order to protect myself or my family from someone who was being physically threatening in the here and now. Violent retribution is NEVER acceptable.
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I go for my daily walk about 6-45am, at this time of year it is quite dark, it never has occurred to me to be concerned about my safety, I don't even take my phone. I do carry my walking stick, which I would put to good use, if absolutely necessary.
I got my dog to protect me while walking (partly, also because I love him to bits) and always have my phone, but that's because there's a lot of poachers and hare coursers around here and bumping into those guys alone and unprotected is not a good idea for anyone, male or female.
Also if I fell and hurt myself badly then I'd need my phone, and in the wet and mud that's by far the most likely danger.
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Yes. As part of my last job we received sexism, racism etc awareness training. When the trainer heard we had a lone female working in my lab she stated that that female must feel isolated and threatened, not might or could but must. I said I didn't think she did and was told I was wrongas she was bound to.
Was she the only person in your lab not on the sexism, racism etc training course?
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Was she the only person in your lab not on the sexism, racism etc training course?
No, we all went but not at the same time.
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The sad thing to me is that we leave this thread about everyday sexual harrasment and assault because of the 'famous' people and whose knee they touched.
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I read through quickly.
Some of the things like hitch hiking or allowing those to get away with exposing themselves to keep
a job or fondling being allowed makes me sick.
What is wrong with those women. I would never hitch hike. Reported a flasher. Would have never wanted a job where someone sexually harrassed or tried to touch me up. A swift kick in the balls would have more than sufficed and a call to the cops.
YOU CANNOT COMPLAIN IF YOU DO NOTHING TO STOP IT HAPPENING OR PHONE THE POLICE.
My blood boiled because the stupid bloody women allowed them to get away with it. >:( Once people do nothing they go on to make more victims. Have some bloody self respect. A job is not worth sexual harrassment or assault.
Don't complain about it, if you do nothing to bloody stop it.
I hope someone on the thread other myself have pointed these things out.
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I don't think it is as simple as that Sassy. Some women may not be in a position where they can afford to lose a job. From reading reports others have reported it and were not taken seriously. I don't think an accusation of inaction is helpful or even relevant in these cases.
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I read through quickly.
Some of the things like hitch hiking or allowing those to get away with exposing themselves to keep
a job or fondling being allowed makes me sick.
What is wrong with those women. I would never hitch hike. Reported a flasher. Would have never wanted a job where someone sexually harrassed or tried to touch me up. A swift kick in the balls would have more than sufficed and a call to the cops.
YOU CANNOT COMPLAIN IF YOU DO NOTHING TO STOP IT HAPPENING OR PHONE THE POLICE.
My blood boiled because the stupid bloody women allowed them to get away with it. >:( Once people do nothing they go on to make more victims. Have some bloody self respect. A job is not worth sexual harrassment or assault.
Don't complain about it, if you do nothing to bloody stop it.
I hope someone on the thread other myself have pointed these things out.
Sassy, I like your spirit and probably for the first time , I agree with you 👍
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Sassy, I like your spirit and probably for the first time , I agree with you 👍
Yes, anyone who feels too scared to come forward after being raped should be blamed for that. (For the avoidance of doubt and given the misreading of some other comments elsewhere, that is me being sarcastic)
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Yes, too scared, to ashamed, to shellshocked...let’s blame every victim of sexual and domestic abuse if they don’t speak out, after all our court systems are outstandingly good and fair and nobody will judge them.
(Guess what that’s me being).
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I read through quickly.
Some of the things like hitch hiking or allowing those to get away with exposing themselves to keep
a job or fondling being allowed makes me sick.
What is wrong with those women. I would never hitch hike. Reported a flasher. Would have never wanted a job where someone sexually harrassed or tried to touch me up. A swift kick in the balls would have more than sufficed and a call to the cops.
YOU CANNOT COMPLAIN IF YOU DO NOTHING TO STOP IT HAPPENING OR PHONE THE POLICE.
My blood boiled because the stupid bloody women allowed them to get away with it. >:( Once people do nothing they go on to make more victims. Have some bloody self respect. A job is not worth sexual harrassment or assault.
Don't complain about it, if you do nothing to bloody stop it.
I hope someone on the thread other myself have pointed these things out.
Have you ever been sexually harassed or abused? If you haven't maybe you wouldn't find it so easy to report it, so DON'T condemn those who didn't come forward until now.
I was touched up by the pastor of our pentecostal church when I was 14, I did report it to my parents but I was told I was making it up! :o
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Yes, too scared, to ashamed, to shellshocked...let’s blame every victim of sexual and domestic abuse if they don’t speak out, after all our court systems are outstandingly good and fair and nobody will judge them.
(Guess what that’s me being).
Well I'm going with being empathetic, and sensible.
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Yes, anyone who feels too scared to come forward after being raped should be blamed for that. (For the avoidance of doubt and given the misreading of some other comments elsewhere, that is me being sarcastic)
you and I obviously view this subject differently
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you and I obviously view this subject differently
Yes, I think blaming someone who was raped for being too scared and traumatised to report it is wrong, whereas you think that it is right.
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Yes, I think blaming someone who was raped for being too scared and traumatised to report it is wrong, whereas you think that it is right.
I have very little sympathy for weak people . You will say I'm wrong , I will say you are wrong .I do not feel the same about people as you do but my judgement has equal value to yours ,although you will take the moral ''high ground'' in the matter and claim you are a better person than me.
off you go...........
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I have very little sympathy for weak people . You will say I'm wrong , I will say you are wrong .I do not feel the same about people as you do but my judgement has equal value to yours ,although you will take the moral ''high ground'' in the matter and claim you are a better person than me.
off you go...........
You know, if you want to try poisoning the well by stating what someone is going to say and try and portray them as somehow at fault, it"s useful to beat least reasonably confident about what their position is. I don't think morality is objective.
I think your idea that someone who gets raked is weak because they are traumatised, is simplistic though.
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Ah, a nice bit of victim blaming, it takes me back to the good old days.
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You know, if you want to try poisoning the well by stating what someone is going to say and try and portray them as somehow at fault, it"s useful to beat least reasonably confident about what their position is. I don't think morality is objective.
I think your idea that someone who gets raked is weak because they are traumatised, is simplistic though.
quite right , I was off on one, although 'strong people '' are rarely targeted, there would be little point in the eyes of the aggressor .
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quite right , I was off on one, although 'strong people '' are rarely targeted, there would be little point in the eyes of the aggressor .
Then you don't understand the mind of the abuser very well.
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Then you don't understand the mind of the abuser very well.
tbh, I have very little interest in subject really.
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tbh, I have very little interest in subject really.
Few of us do until it becomes a necessity.
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Walter you have little understanding of people who may be by nature rather timid and shy - not necessarily weak. How sexual assault can happen in many forms and take someone quite by surprise so that they freeze. Then there is trying to prove it. A violent rape can usually be proven but not the more subtle kinds of sexual abuse.
Many of us here including me have encountered unwanted sexual attention (talk, groping, more), when we were younger but I also did when I was older.
A few years ago I experienced something at the hands of a doctor. It happened during an examination/treatment and came quite out of the blue. I was so shocked my mind went off somewhere else, afterwards I went home and was completely numb. For a couple of days it was as if I was in a dream. I didn't do anything about it because I knew I had no proof but I cancelled further appointments. No-one would call me weak, I tackled sexual harassment at work head on when I was an HR manager and in other situations, supporting others - still do sometimes.
After that happened I kept an eye on the local paper for a while to see if his name ever came up in connection with sexual assault in which case I would have spoken out. I felt guilty that I'd done nothing because someone else might suffer but quite honestly, how could I prove it? Plus I wanted to put it behind me.
Sometimes we are helpless. Maybe it hasn't happened to you - (it does happen to men). It's a shocking thing Walter.
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It doesn't matter if someone is whatever we think of as strong or not. Abuse usually comes out of the blue; in a position where it is sustained (marriage, family, the workplace) it can and does crack even the strongest person, men as well as women. And very often it comes from someone in a position of power (doctor, priest, boss) or someone who is able to manipulate themselves into a position of control (partner, parent, relative, friend).
And very often it comes from people in a position of trust - see above - which means that it is so hard to stay strong when trust in those who are supposed to look after people has gone.
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I totally agree with Robbie and Rhi's posts.
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Walter you have little understanding of people who may be by nature rather timid and shy - not necessarily weak. How sexual assault can happen in many forms and take someone quite by surprise so that they freeze. Then there is trying to prove it. A violent rape can usually be proven but not the more subtle kinds of sexual abuse.
Many of us here including me have encountered unwanted sexual attention (talk, groping, more), when we were younger but I also did when I was older.
A few years ago I experienced something at the hands of a doctor. It happened during an examination/treatment and came quite out of the blue. I was so shocked my mind went off somewhere else, afterwards I went home and was completely numb. For a couple of days it was as if I was in a dream. I didn't do anything about it because I knew I had no proof but I cancelled further appointments. No-one would call me weak, I tackled sexual harassment at work head on when I was an HR manager and in other situations, supporting others - still do sometimes.
After that happened I kept an eye on the local paper for a while to see if his name ever came up in connection with sexual assault in which case I would have spoken out. I felt guilty that I'd done nothing because someone else might suffer but quite honestly, how could I prove it? Plus I wanted to put it behind me.
Sometimes we are helpless. Maybe it hasn't happened to you - (it does happen to men). It's a shocking thing Walter.
That is truely awful and you have my sympathy
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It doesn't matter if someone is whatever we think of as strong or not. Abuse usually comes out of the blue; in a position where it is sustained (marriage, family, the workplace) it can and does crack even the strongest person, men as well as women. And very often it comes from someone in a position of power (doctor, priest, boss) or someone who is able to manipulate themselves into a position of control (partner, parent, relative, friend).
And very often it comes from people in a position of trust - see above - which means that it is so hard to stay strong when trust in those who are supposed to look after people has gone.
i suppose being a bloke with my personality it would be difficult for someone to abuse me I that way
I do understand your position , please disregard my previous remark (I annoy myself sometimes )
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Btw I posted a description of a true event some posts back that happened in my car which made me uncomfortable and nobody had anything to say about it !
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when I had a proper job some years ago I was required to asses performance of the team members , half of whom were women
This involved the two of us spending hours together in a car covering a large geographical area. On one occasion it was late afternoon and the very attractive woman in her mid thirties decided she wanted to change her snagged tights. I was driving and said I would find a convenient place to stop so she could do it
She said not to bother ,she would do it while we were travelling. She took a new pack from her bag, took her shoes off , put her feet up on the dashboard , pulled her skirt up round her waist lifted her bum off the seat and wriggled her tights over her knees complete with caught up knickers until they were off her legs .
I was trying not to look and in my shocked amazement almost hit the car in front.
She made some jokey comment about her knickers coming off in the procedure then carried on putting the new tights on without pants .
I never told anyone at work about this incident for fear of incriminating myself and putting my job at risk.
Do you think I was a victim in this case ?
Yes, she behaved badly. Her snagged tights were not so important that she had to take them and her knickers off in front of you, it could have waited. I understand why you never told anyone at work, it was really awkward for you.
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Btw I posted a description of a true event some posts back that happened in my car which made me uncomfortable and nobody had anything to say about it !
Tbh I didn’t know what to say. It’s a bit weird.
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Tbh I didn’t know what to say. It’s a bit weird.
it certainly was, and when I read it back to myself it looks like I made it up but it definitely happened .
Being in a superior position and perceived power had an apparent effect on some of the women in my team to the extent I was propositioned on a number of occasions even though they were in relationships and they knew I was.
They knew i frequently stayed overnight in hotels and made it clear to me they were available to join me .
Would you call that sexual harassment? It definitely made me feel awkward.
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Yes, in my opinion, it amounts to harassment if it is unwanted. That you were in a position of power in some way could lessen the issue as opposed to someone in power acting that way. There have been similar occasions that I have experienced but I think there is a difference in the frequency, intent and balance of power generally with what so !any woman have suffered.
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it certainly was, and when I read it back to myself it looks like I made it up but it definitely happened .
Being in a superior position and perceived power had an apparent effect on some of the women in my team to the extent I was propositioned on a number of occasions even though they were in relationships and they knew I was.
They knew i frequently stayed overnight in hotels and made it clear to me they were available to join me .
Would you call that sexual harassment? It definitely made me feel awkward.
Yes it’s a form of harassment. My first thought on reading it - and the account of Tights Woman - is how vulnerable you were to false allegations if you knocked them back.
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Yes, in my opinion, it amounts to harassment if it is unwanted. That you were in a position of power in some way could lessen the issue as opposed to someone in power acting that way. There have been similar occasions that I have experienced but I think there is a difference in the frequency, intent and balance of power generally with what so !any woman have suffered.
okay , I understand where you are coming from but you try to diminish the seriousness of these acts by pointing out who has ''the balance of power''
I would suggest the women in my case were fully aware of the potential power they held and were attempting to entrap me with sex. Imagine the control they would have had over me if I had fallen for their little game.
Also ,the destruction it could have caused at home if my partner had found out either by accident or from one of them . some of these women were like wild cats with sharp claws , which was a good quality to have bearing in mind the nature of the business we were in .
But who knows where it could have ended up if id gone along with it ?
forgot to mention , they knew I carried with me a company cheque book and was authorised to write cheques to the value of 100,000 pounds per day plus a company credit card for sundry items hmmm.......?
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Yes it’s a form of harassment. My first thought on reading it - and the account of Tights Woman - is how vulnerable you were to false allegations if you knocked them back.
Yes it was , but you qualify it by saying, a form of harassment , which seems to lessen its effect .
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Yes it was , but you qualify it by saying, a form of harassment , which seems to lessen its effect .
Harassment comes in many forms. Making someone view porn is a form of harassment and one my daughter reported a classmate for.
I wouldn’t have thought that recognising how vulnerable it left you was diminishing it?
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okay , I understand where you are coming from but you try to diminish the seriousness of these acts by pointing out who has ''the balance of power''
I would suggest the women in my case were fully aware of the potential power they held and were attempting to entrap me with sex. Imagine the control they would have had over me if I had fallen for their little game.
Also ,the destruction it could have caused at home if my partner had found out either by accident or from one of them . some of these women were like wild cats with sharp claws , which was a good quality to have bearing in mind the nature of the business we were in .
But who knows where it could have ended up if id gone along with it ?
There is a difference here surely about you having sex from a position of power and feeling you couldn't refuse? Entrapped has a different take to feeling forced? That doesn't mean it wasn't harassment, and as Rhiannon has pointed out, the possible 'threat' of false allegations is a different form, not necessarily lesser, form of harassment.
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Harassment comes in many forms. Making someone view porn is a form of harassment and one my daughter reported a classmate for.
I wouldn’t have thought that recognising how vulnerable it left you was diminishing it?
I get your point , thanks.
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There is a difference here surely about you having sex from a position of power and feeling you couldn't refuse? Entrapped has a different take to feeling forced? That doesn't mean it wasn't harassment, and as Rhiannon has pointed out, the possible 'threat' of false allegations is a different form, not necessarily lesser, form of harassment.
hmmmm your reply is very telling .
This is not the kind of harassment you want to discuss , is it? fair enough.
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hmmmm your reply is very telling .
This is not the kind of harassment you want to discuss , is it? fair enough.
No, my post didn't say that and indeed asked you questions to expand the discussion. Questions which you haven't answered.
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No, my post didn't say that and indeed asked you questions to expand the discussion. Questions which you haven't answered.
I thought they were rhetorical , my mistake !
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Pete Hitchens showing his lack of knowledge of what life was like in Victorian times
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5050887/amp/What-women-gain-squawking-sex-pests-Niqab.html
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Pete Hitchens showing his lack of knowledge of what life was like in Victorian times
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5050887/amp/What-women-gain-squawking-sex-pests-Niqab.html
don't always agree with Peter Hitchens , but he's just said what I was thinking . hu-oh!
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There is a difference here surely about you having sex from a position of power and feeling you couldn't refuse? Entrapped has a different take to feeling forced? That doesn't mean it wasn't harassment, and as Rhiannon has pointed out, the possible 'threat' of false allegations is a different form, not necessarily lesser, form of harassment.
however the harassment was caused is irrelevant . Its the effects of the harassment that's important
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however the harassment was caused is irrelevant . Its the effects of the harassment that's important
And I think the effects of the harassment are linked to the harassment itself.
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don't always agree with Peter Hitchens , but he's just said what I was thinking . hu-oh!
so if Bex Bailey was raped you think describing her coming forward as 'squawking' as the article does is good? And do you also subscribe to his ludicrous idea of the gentility of Victorian times?
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don't always agree with Peter Hitchens , but he's just said what I was thinking . hu-oh!
What a lovely person you are. :o
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What a lovely person you are. :o
why thank you , you're to kind.
I shall refrain from commenting on what I think about you Floo!
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And I think the effects of the harassment are linked to the harassment itself.
Do you.
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so if Bex Bailey was raped you think describing her coming forward as 'squawking' as the article does is good? And do you also subscribe to his ludicrous idea of the gentility of Victorian times?
He was making a point with which I agree .
and , by the way , as is claimed of you , I too am occasionally accused of starting an argument in an empty room! but not today thanks .
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Do you.
Yes, anecdotally when I was in a similar position to you the fact that I was more senior and in no way physically intimidated had an affect on how I perceived the harassment.
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Yes, anecdotally when I was in a similar position to you the fact that I was more senior and in no way physically intimidated had an affect on how I perceived the harassment.
that's understandable , however I felt caught in a dilemma , these women ware very manipulative and could have cried foul whether or not I had agreed to their 'offers'.
On the other hand I admit it took all my will power not to jump into bed with them , hours of fun could've been had every week .
Looking back I'm glad I didn't , however the love of my life left me anyway some time later. And , btw , we got together because as her boss we too spent many hours in a car together
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Yes, anecdotally when I was in a similar position to you the fact that I was more senior and in no way physically intimidated had an affect on how I perceived the harassment.
Id love to hear about your situation but this board might not be the right place . Fancy a pint?
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And I think the effects of the harassment are linked to the harassment itself.
have a listen to this
https://youtu.be/OsXC1_ZoVdg
made me smile!
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Pete Hitchens showing his lack of knowledge of what life was like in Victorian times
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5050887/amp/What-women-gain-squawking-sex-pests-Niqab.html
The right wing backlash has started now, and I expect to see lots of talk of witch-hunts against men, and talk of 'trivial' assaults. Hitchens certainly has some weird ideas, for example, his 'militant destruction of marriage'. Eh?
As you say, he seems to idealize a past in which presumably women just lay back and thought of England.
I am curious to see if the govt take this line; probably, they can't now, as it would be difficult to say to women, stop complaining.
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have a listen to this
https://youtu.be/OsXC1_ZoVdg
made me smile!
Nothing amusing about that! :o
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The right wing backlash has started now, and I expect to see lots of talk of witch-hunts against men, and talk of 'trivial' assaults. Hitchens certainly has some weird ideas, for example, his 'militant destruction of marriage'. Eh?
As you say, he seems to idealize a past in which presumably women just lay back and thought of England.
I am curious to see if the govt take this line; probably, they can't now, as it would be difficult to say to women, stop complaining.
and this , hilarious
https://youtu.be/fgvY_Mi9OaQ
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Nothing amusing about that! :o
I know why you're not amused.
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I have sympathy for some of what you have said here Walter. Women with status also have to cope with men coming on to them at work, even if both are in relationships. If it is frankly sexual (as opposed to someone having a bit of a crush), the only way to deal with it is to be straightforward and say that you are happy at home and, frankly, not interested, then carry on professionally. That message will find its way to other people who might have tried it on - but sometimes it takes you by surprise and you're flummoxed! Hindsight is all very well.
Peter Hitchins is an anachronism.
Rhiannon, kudos to your daughter for reporting a fellow pupil for sending porn to her on her 'phone (think it was 'phone without looking back at your post). That's the way to do it and I take my hat off to you, she's a chip off the old block.
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I'm not sure about Hitchens being an anachronism. He is right-wing, and the right wing traditionally are misogynists. I suppose at the moment, they are lying low, because of the torrent of sexual harassment cases, but I don't think they will go away. But I don't think the govt can take up their case now, so I don't know what the right wing will do, probably read the Mail and write angry comments about femiNazis.
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I have sympathy for some of what you have said here Walter. Women with status also have to cope with men coming on to them at work, even if both are in relationships. If it is frankly sexual (as opposed to someone having a bit of a crush), the only way to deal with it is to be straightforward and say that you are happy at home and, frankly, not interested, then carry on professionally. That message will find its way to other people who might have tried it on - but sometimes it takes you by surprise and you're flummoxed! Hindsight is all very well.
Peter Hitchins is an anachronism.
Rhiannon, kudos to your daughter for reporting a fellow pupil for sending porn to her on her 'phone (think it was 'phone without looking back at your post). That's the way to do it and I take my hat off to you, she's a chip off the old block.
thanks Robbie
flummoxed is a excellent word
and anachronism is a very polite word to describe old Hitchens
if he weren't a devout Christian I would take more notice of him :o
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He doesn't seem to live in the world as it is today and, even if you are a Christian, you have to be aware of what goes on around you. Jane Austen is long since gone.
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He doesn't seem to live in the world as it is today and, even if you are a Christian, you have to be aware of what goes on around you. Jane Austen is long since gone.
I think you are underestimating the possibility of a right wing backlash. Hitchens is just part of it, but I would expect the Mail, the Express and the Telegraph to join in, and basically attempt to undermine women's complaints about harassment. Sure, it is antediluvian, but then the right wing are about many things.
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I'm not sure about Hitchens being an anachronism. He is right-wing, and the right wing traditionally are misogynists. I suppose at the moment, they are lying low, because of the torrent of sexual harassment cases, but I don't think they will go away. But I don't think the govt can take up their case now, so I don't know what the right wing will do, probably read the Mail and write angry comments about femiNazis.
some times you talk absolute bollocks .
There are many subjects on which my views would be categorised as being right wing , there are some which would be classed as left and some in the middle and some which are just my own
Because some of my views are 'right wing' does not mean I am traditionally misogynistic. And if you don't like what the papers say, don't frikkin read em ::)
sorry, that was a bit harsh
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Yes, anyone who feels too scared to come forward after being raped should be blamed for that. (For the avoidance of doubt and given the misreading of some other comments elsewhere, that is me being sarcastic)
Moving a goal post to make it about something NOT being discussed gives no weight or merit to the actual argument or discussion?
Not a good response NS. :(
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Moving a goal post to make it about something NOT being discussed gives no weight or merit to the actual argument or discussion?
Not a good response NS. :(
mmm not an accurate statement of what I said.
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Moving a goal post to make it about something NOT being discussed gives no weight or merit to the actual argument or discussion?
Not a good response NS. :(
And your is? ::)