Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on October 16, 2017, 04:58:05 PM
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Interesting little article on the phenomenon of spirit photographs
http://www.openculture.com/2017/10/eerie-19th-century-photographs-of-ghosts.html
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That's the best collection of double exposures I've seen in a long time ;)
This bit:
They were ordinary people bereaved by the mass death of the Civil War and deeply motivated to accept physical confirmation of an afterlife.
reminded me that Britain's own spiritualist boom came during and after the Great War, spearheaded by Sir Oliver Lodge (who lost his son Raymond) and championed by big names such as Conan Doyle*.
* Who lost whatever credibility he may ever have had when the Cottingley fairy photographs, in which he was a staunch believer, turned out to be pictures of fairies cut out of books and stuck in the ground with hatpins.
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The most hilarious ones are of 'ectoplasm'; some are at the Arthur Findlay College, the study centre for the British Spiritualists Association or whatever they are called, as 'proof' of spiritualist mediumship.
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The most hilarious ones are of 'ectoplasm'; some are at the Arthur Findlay College, the study centre for the British Spiritualists Association or whatever they are called, as 'proof' of spiritualist mediumship.
Not a joke, there really is a newspaper called 'The Psychic News', why?
Shouldn't they all know anyway?
ippy
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Weren't a few of those involved in the study and development of electromagnetic waves spiritualists? Oliver Lodge was an EM pioneer. While the relatively hard imagination-free agnostic mind being more attracted to Biology?
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The most hilarious ones are of 'ectoplasm'; some are at the Arthur Findlay College, the study centre for the British Spiritualists Association or whatever they are called, as 'proof' of spiritualist mediumship.
https://youtu.be/W0HncGNBCqY
unbelievable ???
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So "spirit photography" is not pictures of Johnny Walker and Captain Morgan?
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Weren't a few of those involved in the study and development of electromagnetic waves spiritualists? Oliver Lodge was an EM pioneer. While the relatively hard imagination-free agnostic mind being more attracted to Biology?
Nicolas Marks?
ippy
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Weren't a few of those involved in the study and development of electromagnetic waves spiritualists? Oliver Lodge was an EM pioneer. While the relatively hard imagination-free agnostic mind being more attracted to Biology?
If you mean that Lodge was heavy on the imagination, no disagreement from me, Vlad ;)
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If you mean that Lodge was heavy on the imagination, no disagreement from me, Vlad ;)
I was just saying that physicists seem to have a greater imagination than biologists.
And the legacy is seen NDG Tyson vs PZ Myers
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I was just saying that physicists seem to have a greater imagination than biologists.
And the legacy is seen NDG Tyson vs PZ Myers
Useful thing, imagination.
But in science the finishing line is the same whatever the branch may be ;)
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I was just saying that physicists seem to have a greater imagination than biologists.
And the legacy is seen NDG Tyson vs PZ Myers
Possibly, but I immediately thought of Alfred Russell Wallace who was a keen advocate of spiritualism as well a being one of the leading evolutionary thinkers of his time.
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Possibly, but I immediately thought of Alfred Russell Wallace who was a keen advocate of spiritualism as well a being one of the leading evolutionary thinkers of his time.
I was thinking of him too.
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Yours is the superior knowledge Gentlemen.
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Talking of spirit photography here is a CCTV footage ....
https://rachfeed.com/cctv-footage-shows-spirit-woman-died-fatal-crash/
Another....
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2016/10/04/people-claim-to-see-spirit-leaving-womans-body-after-fatal-acci/21491538/
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::)
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Talking of spirit photography here is a CCTV footage ....
https://rachfeed.com/cctv-footage-shows-spirit-woman-died-fatal-crash/
Another....
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2016/10/04/people-claim-to-see-spirit-leaving-womans-body-after-fatal-acci/21491538/
It's sad that people are using this poor woman's death to fake up this, probably trying to make money.
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It's sad that people are using this poor woman's death to fake up this, probably trying to make money.
But that's just your belief isn't it?! No proof that it is fake.
After all, most people in the world do believe in spirits and life after death! The videos could just be evidence of that aspect of reality.
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Anybody who likes this kind of thing should try the 1972 film The Asphyx.
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But that's just your belief isn't it?! No proof that it is fake.
After all, most people in the world do believe in spirits and life after death! The videos could just be evidence of that aspect of reality.
I was alone with my dad watching him die . I didn't see anything leave his body when he did . Or does that only happen in certain circumstances?
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I was alone with my dad watching him die . I didn't see anything leave his body when he did . Or does that only happen in certain circumstances?
Yes....even I was sitting next to my father and FIL as they passed away....and I did not see anything leaving the body. If we could actually see the soul/spirit we wouldn't be discussing it in this manner would we?!
We cannot see or hear or feel the spirit/soul and that's the whole point. It is said that, under some special circumstances, especially if the person who died is fairly young, the soul can be felt or even seen. These are unknown phenomena...so going into intricate details is not meaningful.
In the first video the guys on the scene obviously did not 'see' anything. But one of them seems to have felt something as he extended his hand through the soul ....or so it seemed to me.
Also FYI, black souls mean not very evolved souls (more selfish) while white soul means more developed and loving. :)
Maybe the videos are fake...but since I believe in souls/spirits and life after death...I have no reason to assume so. Souls are normal!
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But that's just your belief isn't it?! No proof that it is fake.
After all, most people in the world do believe in spirits and life after death! The videos could just be evidence of that aspect of reality.
Why would the video be "sensitive" to souls? It just records light, the same light that we see?
Unless it was fake!
No proof that it is not fake!
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But that's just your belief isn't it?! No proof that it is fake.
After all, most people in the world do believe in spirits and life after death! The videos could just be evidence of that aspect of reality.
A negative proof fallacy and an ad populum in two sentences.
That level of concentrated wrongness must take some work.
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No proof that it is fake.
Jusr ask yourself, why is the "soul" in the film vaguely human shaped?
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A negative proof fallacy and an ad populum in two sentences.
That level of concentrated wrongness must take some work.
here we go again , no amount of explaining the 'wrongness' will ever get through unfortunately.
There comes a point when head banging against walls has to stop .
you carry on my friend if you wish , good luck ::) ::) ::)
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Yes....even I was sitting next to my father and FIL as they passed away....and I did not see anything leaving the body. If we could actually see the soul/spirit we wouldn't be discussing it in this manner would we?!
We cannot see or hear or feel the spirit/soul and that's the whole point. It is said that, under some special circumstances, especially if the person who died is fairly young, the soul can be felt or even seen. These are unknown phenomena...so going into intricate details is not meaningful.
In the first video the guys on the scene obviously did not 'see' anything. But one of them seems to have felt something as he extended his hand through the soul ....or so it seemed to me.
Also FYI, black souls mean not very evolved souls (more selfish) while white soul means more developed and loving. :)
Maybe the videos are fake...but since I believe in souls/spirits and life after death...I have no reason to assume so. Souls are normal!
You are very welcome to your world of rather strange ideas Sriram, we also used to think that the sun revolved around the earth, no one has managed to put forward anything at any time founded on a realistic base that might confirm that idea, for that's all you have, an idea and it's still only an idea no matter how many share your idea with you; unless of course?
It's not very rational to think that because billions share an idea that makes it true, you often allude to how deeply thoughtful you are; what happened here?
Kind regards ippy
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These are mindset issues. If anyone was suitable inclined there is enough evidence for an after life. For those of a habitually skeptical frame of mind, no evidence is possible.
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Jusr ask yourself, why is the "soul" in the film vaguely human shaped?
Why shouldn't it be vaguely human shaped? It obviously would be I would think. Most ghosts and spirits are said to be human shaped!
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These are mindset issues. If anyone was suitable inclined there is enough evidence for an after life. For those of a habitually skeptical frame of mind, no evidence is possible.
mind set issues are a nonsense and are irrelevant . what can determine truth is empirical evidence validated by use of the scientific method.
You can chose not to believe the validity of the results if you want but hat does not affect their truth.
f=ma is a truth and whatever you think of that is irrelevant.
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Why shouldn't it be vaguely human shaped? It obviously would be I would think. Most ghosts and spirits are said to be human shaped!
do ghosts wear clothes? can animals become ghosts? what are ghosts made of? can we put a ghost in a jar and measure its properties? can they be used as organ donors? where can I get one from ? do they make good pets?
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mind set issues are a nonsense and are irrelevant . what can determine truth is empirical evidence validated by use of the scientific method.
You can chose not to believe the validity of the results if you want but hat does not affect their truth.
f=ma is a truth and whatever you think of that is irrelevant.
No...till something is established as Truth...it remains a mindset issue. Even F=MA need not be the truth at subatomic levels or at cosmic levels. Many scientific ideas remain a hypothesis or as a philosophical conjecture even today.
Truth is a strange thing and we only see what we are able to see at any point of time. This is both due to sensory limitations and mindset issues.
Phenomena such as the after-life are in that grey area where they are not yet established as fact but they cannot be dismissed from real life either.
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Why shouldn't it be vaguely human shaped? It obviously would be I would think. Most ghosts and spirits are said to be human shaped!
You can imagine a soul to be any shape you like Sriram, just as you have done already.
ippy
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No...till something is established as Truth...it remains a mindset issue. Even F=MA need not be the truth at subatomic levels or at cosmic levels. Many scientific ideas remain a hypothesis or as a philosophical conjecture even today.
Truth is a strange thing and we only see what we are able to see at any point of time. This is both due to sensory limitations and mindset issues.
Phenomena such as the after-life are in that grey area where they are not yet established as fact but they cannot be dismissed from real life either.
if you want me to get into quantum mechanics I can , I use Newton's law as an example of what we experience in our lives every day
I think the only person here with 'mindset issues ' is you. You display it frequently and because of it you cannot see it .
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if you want me to get into quantum mechanics I can , I use Newton's law as an example of what we experience in our lives every day
I think the only person here with 'mindset issues ' is you. You display it frequently and because of it you cannot see it .
Alright....let us leave it at that then! Thanks.
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These are mindset issues. If anyone was suitable inclined there is enough evidence for an after life. For those of a habitually skeptical frame of mind, no evidence is possible.
Why would there be a difference between the evidence needed to prove a point to one set of people to the evidence needed to prove a point to another; 'type of person'?
Perhaps your post would make more sense if it read:
"These are mindset issues. If anyone was suitably inclined there is enough evidence for an after life. For those of a habitually gullible frame of mind, any, supposed, evidence would deem an afterlife possible".
Surly you can see where there is no evidence available to prove an idea, such as in this case, spirits, it's equally as viable to put forward the idea of a belief in unicorns, leprechauns or say 'Star Trek' as well as your spirit idea, and they will all be equally as credible as each other as ideas.
Think about it Sriram, Bertrand Russell's, tea pot.
Regards ippy
P. S. Could you send us some of your lovely Indian weather, please asap?
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Why would there be a difference between the evidence needed to prove a point to one set of people to the evidence needed to prove a point to another; 'type of person'?
Perhaps your post would make more sense if it read:
"These are mindset issues. If anyone was suitably inclined there is enough evidence for an after life. For those of a habitually gullible frame of mind, any, supposed, evidence would deem an afterlife possible".
Surly you can see where there is no evidence available to prove an idea, such as in this case, spirits, it's equally as viable to put forward the idea of a belief in unicorns, leprechauns or say 'Star Trek' as well as your spirit idea, and they will all be equally as credible as each other as ideas.
Think about it Sriram, Bertrand Russell's, tea pot.
Regards ippy
P. S. Could you send us some of your lovely Indian weather, please asap?
I have thought about it ippy...for many decades. I am convinced that there is an After-life and that I (and you too) am a spirit residing temporarily inside this body. I have enough evidence...but not of the kind that I can show you or others.
Anyway this is not going to get resolved as easily as we would like. :) I will keep saying what I think and you can keep saying what you think.
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I have thought about it ippy...for many decades. I am convinced that there is an After-life and that I (and you too) am a spirit residing temporarily inside this body. I have enough evidence...but not of the kind that I can show you or others.
Anyway this is not going to get resolved as easily as we would like. :) I will keep saying what I think and you can keep saying what you think.
the issue there is , one of you is totally wrong and its so obvious who it is.
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the issue there is , one of you is totally wrong and its so obvious who it is.
Walter, Sriram could be right but there's very little evidence to be found anywhere that would support his ideas, Russell's tea pot reigns supreme to my mind.
Most, well all of these ideas look decidedly man made to me, they come mostly from the bronze age and earlier where human kind were so advanced with their knowledge on all subjects; yes?
ippy
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Walter, Sriram could be right but there's very little evidence to be found anywhere that would support his ideas, Russell's tea pot reigns supreme to my mind.
Most, well all of these ideas look decidedly man made to me, they come mostly from the bronze age and earlier where human kind were so advanced with their knowledge on all subjects; yes?
ippy
Well....thanks for allowing that little possibility.
Most western communities have for long associated spiritual issues with religion. This has led to considerable distrust and a complete dismissal of all spiritual aspects of life. Science VS Religion has been synonymous with Science VS Spirituality. This is wrong.
Secular Spirituality has never hitherto been treated with any respect, unlike in India and the East. If religious mythology is wrong all spirituality has to be wrong...has been the thinking in the West.
Once this attitude changes it is possible that spirituality could be viewed with some respect and some serious investigation would be conducted. Maybe in the coming generations it will happen!
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Well....thanks for allowing that little possibility.
Most western communities have for long associated spiritual issues with religion. This has led to considerable distrust and a complete dismissal of all spiritual aspects of life. Science VS Religion has been synonymous with Science VS Spirituality. This is wrong.
Secular Spirituality has never hitherto been treated with any respect, unlike in India and the East. If religious mythology is wrong all spirituality has to be wrong...has been the thinking in the West.
Once this attitude changes it is possible that spirituality could be viewed with some respect and some serious investigation would be conducted. Maybe in the coming generations it will happen!
I watched Sue Perkins in her show about travelling down the Ganges river last night on the telly . After half an hour I had to turn it off, could not bear to listen to all that superstitious bollocks any longer and all those people believe it , backward or what?
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I watched Sue Perkins in her show about travelling down the Ganges river last night on the telly . After half an hour I had to turn it off, could not bear to listen to all that superstitious bollocks any longer and all those people believe it , backward or what?
That is religion, mythology and lot of superstition. I agree. I can't stand much of all that myself.
If you want to understand spirituality without the religious stuff...go for Yoga or Vedanta. Spirituality is essentially about what each of us is independent of the body and mind.
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No...till something is established as Truth...it remains a mindset issue. Even F=MA need not be the truth at subatomic levels or at cosmic levels. Many scientific ideas remain a hypothesis or as a philosophical conjecture even today.
Truth is a strange thing and we only see what we are able to see at any point of time. This is both due to sensory limitations and mindset issues.
Phenomena such as the after-life are in that grey area where they are not yet established as fact but they cannot be dismissed from real life either.
Mindset issues appears to bea a euphemism for imagination.
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Mindset issues appears to bea a euphemism for imagination.
I'll go with you on this one Susan.
Regards ippy
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I watched Sue Perkins in her show about travelling down the Ganges river last night on the telly . After half an hour I had to turn it off, could not bear to listen to all that superstitious bollocks any longer and all those people believe it , backward or what?
It gives me the itch watching people swimming around and performing all sorts of ablutions effectively steeped in raw sewage, creepy, couldn't watch it.
ippy
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That is religion, mythology and lot of superstition. I agree. I can't stand much of all that myself.
If you want to understand spirituality without the religious stuff...go for Yoga or Vedanta. Spirituality is essentially about what each of us is independent of the body and mind.
Something I can speak about with experience that you could if you wanted to scale up to most things in life, I wear hearing aids one behind each ear, I take the off at night for obvious reasons and then put them back on/in each morning the sound they transmit into my ears is a rather tinny sound and it would be reasonably easy for any competent sound engineer to prove that the tinny sound the small speakers transmit to my ears will remain the same tinny sound for all of the time I'm wearing them.
But no, guess what, my brain, independently of anything I can control, turns the sound into an approximation of whatever it thinks the sounds it's dealing with should sound like and to me these sounds are no longer tinny sounds, to me, they all sound as warm and natural as my brain thinks they should be.
One of the jobs our brains do without any prompting is to make every effort to make sense of its surroundings, lots of things in our short lives don't necessarily make sense and I'm sure a part of these, senseless to me, religious or ideas spiritual, dependent on your take on the meaning of spiritual, are partly made up by our brains again trying to make sense of this world we all live in, nothing mystical about it, although I must concede it looks that way.
There's so much more to that simple statement of Russell's about the tea pot, than is immediately obvious.
Regards ippy
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That is religion, mythology and lot of superstition. I agree. I can't stand much of all that myself.
If you want to understand spirituality without the religious stuff...go for Yoga or Vedanta. Spirituality is essentially about what each of us is independent of the body and mind.
I'm going to send my spirit off with a camera today to get some lovely shots of the autumn colours .
Il let you know the results later !
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It gives me the itch watching people swimming around and performing all sorts of ablutions effectively steeped in raw sewage, creepy, couldn't watch it.
ippy
The Ganges Experience: come and bathe in shit , millions of people cant be wrong ;)
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Something I can speak about with experience that you could if you wanted to scale up to most things in life, I wear hearing aids one behind each ear, I take the off at night for obvious reasons and then put them back on/in each morning the sound they transmit into my ears is a rather tinny sound and it would be reasonably easy for any competent sound engineer to prove that the tinny sound the small speakers transmit to my ears will remain the same tinny sound for all of the time I'm wearing them.
But no, guess what, my brain, independently of anything I can control, turns the sound into an approximation of whatever it thinks the sounds it's dealing with should sound like and to me these sounds are no longer tinny sounds, to me, they all sound as warm and natural as my brain thinks they should be.
One of the jobs our brains do without any prompting is to make every effort to make sense of its surroundings, lots of things in our short lives don't necessarily make sense and I'm sure a part of these, senseless to me, religious or ideas spiritual, dependent on your take on the meaning of spiritual, are partly made up by our brains again trying to make sense of this world we all live in, nothing mystical about it, although I must concede it looks that way.
There's so much more to that simple statement of Russell's about the tea pot, than is immediately obvious.
Regards ippy
I don't see what all this has got to do with what I am saying. I agree that Nature is remarkable and that is the point.
By crediting the brain with certain remarkable qualities you are only acknowledging that Nature is Intelligent. There is a obvious Intelligence built into it which is what makes not just our brain and body but the whole of the eco system so unified and coordinated and regulated.
The brain is just a piece of flesh that begins to rot the moment life goes away. So what is it that makes the brain and the body so full of life and intelligence? That is what spirituality addresses. It is not about religious practices or superstitious beliefs.
I came into this thread with the video of the soul that is seen leaving the body of the accident victim (I have no problem in assuming it is genuine and no reason to believe that it is fake). I consider that event as a very normal and natural part of life. And that does not in any way conflict with your observation about the functioning of the brain.
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I came into this thread with the video of the soul that is seen leaving the body of the accident victim (I have no problem in assuming it is genuine and no reason to believe that it is fake).
And that in itself is a problem.
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And that in itself is a problem.
Well ... "I have no evidence to show that xxx is false" is a perfectly valid statement. It just doesn't say anything about the truth or not of xxx. Something can well be false even if you don't have a counter example to hand.
Sriram is just open to believing whatever suits him even without evidence - like most people most of the time.
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Well, I'm with Sriram on this.
Can anyone explain this from Floo....
I have quite a number of photos taken at our former 'haunted' property, which featured images which weren't apparent when I took the pictures. there probably is a natural explanation, but I still haven't come up with one.
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Well, I'm with Sriram on this.
Can anyone explain this from Floo....
As I haven't seen the images, no.
I do know that what some people of a credulous nature call 'orbs' on photographs, attaching all manner of paranormal pseudo-explanations to them, are simply specks of dust and dirt on the lens.
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These are actual images of people and faces. I put one such photo on the NET years ago, but was fed up to discover a Japanese magazine had published it, without my permission
..... and this is from Floo, who is very much a skeptic on this stuff. Ponder on folk..
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I don't see what all this has got to do with what I am saying. I agree that Nature is remarkable and that is the point.
By crediting the brain with certain remarkable qualities you are only acknowledging that Nature is Intelligent. There is a obvious Intelligence built into it which is what makes not just our brain and body but the whole of the eco system so unified and coordinated and regulated.
The brain is just a piece of flesh that begins to rot the moment life goes away. So what is it that makes the brain and the body so full of life and intelligence? That is what spirituality addresses. It is not about religious practices or superstitious beliefs.
I came into this thread with the video of the soul that is seen leaving the body of the accident victim (I have no problem in assuming it is genuine and no reason to believe that it is fake). I consider that event as a very normal and natural part of life. And that does not in any way conflict with your observation about the functioning of the brain.
The built in tendency of the brain to try to make sense of anything it has to contend with, such as with my hearing I have tried to convey to you, the brain by entering its own version of an an amalgam of previous experience then passes it on to me as a realistic sound, but I'm still aware of how the sound output of these aids to my hearing doesn't alter.
Equally you think that these spirits, or however you wish to term them, are partly an amalgam of your previous experiences, education, asserted religious ideas, all mixed up with, I suggest, a modicum of wishful thinking plus this well known tendency of our brains to use these things in a way that it does its best effort to makes some sense of the way things work, all without necessarily basing all of its estimations on factual information.
Some of us seem to warm to the idea of the supernatural, some are more gullible than others on almost any subject you might like to chose and there are those of us like myself that like to be, as we think, more careful about accepting things on the say so of others, offered, without a sensible way of underlining some of the truth in their words.
It always builds the confidence I have in the ideas hear suggested by others when I hear things like I'm not sure about that but I'm working on it, or I don't know, beats ideas proffered from authority or assertion any day.
Kind regards ippy.
P. S. Where's the good weather gone that I asked you for the other day? We've had to turn on the heating in the house and the trees are loosing their leaves for winter in the brisk wind.
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..... and this is from Floo, who is very much a skeptic on this stuff. Ponder on folk..
Sweet Pea, even I don't get it right all of the time, difficult to believe I know but true.
Regards ippy
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P. S. Where's the good weather gone that I asked you for the other day? We've had to turn on the heating in the house and the trees are loosing their leaves for winter in the brisk wind.
Oh...the weather is fine here ippy. Sunny and bright as ever. I love it. Now that the monsoons are over...it'll stay this way right through winter and summer till about next July when the monsoon clouds come in again.
Wish I could send it to you..... :D
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I am a sceptic in spite of living in a house where on a daily basis for 11 of the 15 years we lived there, the weirdest things happened on a daily basis.
FLOO, if you are still concerned about the photos and still have them perhaps you could have them forensically examined .
even more so , the negatives .
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I am a sceptic in spite of living in a house where on a daily basis for 11 of the 15 years we lived there, the weirdest things happened on a daily basis.
Yes...and that's the proof that all this is a mindset issue. It can't be changed so easily even if one has mystical experiences oneself. It requires a massive breakthrough to change ones mindset. All our discussions are just a waste of time really...though entertaining!
I remember you had your frozen shoulder cured through some strange event in your field. So...being a skeptic is not really a matter of choice it seems. You can't help being one in spite of your experiences.
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Oh...the weather is fine here ippy. Sunny and bright as ever. I love it. Now that the monsoons are over...it'll stay this way right through winter and summer till about next July when the monsoon clouds come in again.
Wish I could send it to you..... :D
I think you've got a very nasty streak in you Sriram, as you must know we've got some months of winter weather to look forward to and you didn't really have to tell us about your blasted good fortune with the weather over there or with the "how much how I love it" statement, there's no good reason why you couldn't have kept that to yourself.
However, good on you, regards ippy
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I think you've got a very nasty streak in you Sriram, as you must know we've got some months of winter weather to look forward to and you didn't really have to tell us about your blasted good fortune with the weather over there or with the "how much how I love it" statement, there's no good reason why you couldn't have kept that to yourself.
However, good on you, regards ippy
Dear, oh dear.. ::) smh
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One thing about the weird things that happened at our previous property was that whilst they could be annoying, especially the Welsh words and images, which appeared on the walls, which I was forever painting out, we were never frightened by it. My childhood family home, which was said to host a poltergeist, was much more scary, even though the activity there wasn't nearly so eventful or frequent.
Amazing! :D
You are the only person I know who so stubbornly insist's that there must be 'some other' explanation in spite of all these personal experiences over the years. It must be some sort of a fear that makes you emphatically deny such matters.
Be that as it may, thanks for sharing your experiences. Maybe you could post the photographs on the net and give us the link.
Walter of course insists that there must be some manipulation done on the negatives. You would know better obviously!
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I think you've got a very nasty streak in you Sriram, as you must know we've got some months of winter weather to look forward to and you didn't really have to tell us about your blasted good fortune with the weather over there or with the "how much how I love it" statement, there's no good reason why you couldn't have kept that to yourself.
However, good on you, regards ippy
You asked for it ippy...twice! :D
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Walter can think what he likes, I wouldn't have a clue how to manipulate a photo, even if I wanted to, which I don't.
But you are pretty strong and managed to live in these places for several years in spite of such happenings! That is great! :)
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You asked for it ippy...twice! :D
Appolgies for my twisted sense of humour and you're right, it serves me right, :P :P :D.
Regards ippy
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Walter can think what he likes, I wouldn't have a clue how to manipulate a photo, even if I wanted to, which I don't.
i was simply offering a possible solution to find a definitive answer , no need for that comment.
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Walter can think what he likes, I wouldn't have a clue how to manipulate a photo, even if I wanted to, which I don't.
You only have to stop for a minute and think when was the last time any and I mean any, any of these supposedly unadulterated photos of the supernatural or supernatural sign writings, wherever hit the headlines on the worlds media as incontravertable evidence of supernatural happenings?
ippy
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Floo,
Having had such extraordinary experiences yourself (over several years) and with your own photographic evidence et al....why do you make statements like "Ghosts and spirits aren't real" ??!!
A strange bipolar attitude I would say.
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And what is a bipolar attitude? Is that Sriram speak for someone who doesn't see it your way? ::)
What I meant by 'bipolar' attitude is 'inconsistent'.
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I suppose there'll always be those looking for the magic and mystical things they like to think exist of in spite of the lack of any supportable evidence, a bit like I dare say if you look hard enough you'll find there's still a few Zeus believers around.
ippy
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I suppose there'll always be those looking for the magic and mystical things they like to think exist of in spite of the lack of any supportable evidence, a bit like I dare say if you look hard enough you'll find there's still a few Zeus believers around.
ippy
They are conjured up regularly whenever it suits the argument........I'll get me coat.
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I didn't enjoy living in my childhood property much as that could be frightening, probably because my mother kept on about it.
However in our 'haunted' home in Wales I have no such fear, nor did my husband. This was probably because we believe there is a natural explanation for all that is considered 'supernatural today', even if science has not discovered it yet.
so you grew up in a haunted house and now you live in one with your husband . Who determined they were haunted?
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Then why didn't you say 'inconsistent'? Bipolar is a mental illness, which I don't have! As for being inconsistent, I have always stated my belief there is a natural explanation for everything even if science hasn't yet found it.
'Bipolar disorder' is a mental illness in which a person adopts extreme reactions. Bipolar just means opposites.
Whether your experiences are categorized as natural or supernatural or whatever, is irrelevant. That is just a label.
The fact remains that you believe you are living in a haunted house, have 'miraculous' cures for your frozen shoulder, routinely paint over writings that appear automatically on your walls, have home photographs with strange faces and persons, talk of a poltergeist in your home....and still keep insisting that there is nothing like spirits, ghosts and so on.... That is inconsistent!
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Where did you get all that from Sririam??? Floo you're more fascinating than I ever imagined.
Later - it's OK, I've now read some of the earlier posts on this thread so get the picture.
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'Bipolar disorder' is a mental illness in which a person adopts extreme reactions. Bipolar just means opposites.
Whether your experiences are categorized as natural or supernatural or whatever, is irrelevant. That is just a label.
The fact remains that you believe you are living in a haunted house, have 'miraculous' cures for your frozen shoulder, routinely paint over writings that appear automatically on your walls, have home photographs with strange faces and persons, talk of a poltergeist in your home....and still keep insisting that there is nothing like spirits, ghosts and so on.... That is inconsistent!
yes, I have to agree with you .
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I mean about being inconsistent .
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I mean about being inconsistent .
It is not necessarily inconsistent. Weird things happen all the time, could happen randomly, be faked or be evidence for unknown forces. But there is certainly insufficient evidence to be able to construct any useful models involving about gods, souls, life after death or other supernatural metaphysics.
Religious or supernatural ideas put forward may be of help to some people on a subjective basis but, in general, the intentions behind them are often found to be attempts to undermine, exploit or control people.
This was all documented by Scooby Doo in the last century.
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As I can't explain it and I lived in the property, I doubt anyone else will. ::)
Was this a film camera where the film was sent off to be processed?
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It is not necessarily inconsistent. Weird things happen all the time, could happen randomly, be faked or be evidence for unknown forces. But there is certainly insufficient evidence to be able to construct any useful models involving about gods, souls, life after death or other supernatural metaphysics.
Religious or supernatural ideas put forward may be of help to some people on a subjective basis but, in general, the intentions behind them are often found to be attempts to undermine, exploit or control people.
This was all documented by Scooby Doo in the last century.
Indeed. You can recognised that things happen with no clear explanation without deciding that it is to do with ghosts and the like.
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Our previous property hosted weird activity for 11 of the 15 years we lived there. As I am tired of repeating my husband, who has a background in science, and I, don't believe in the supernatural!
so what do you think was responsible for the weird activity ?
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They are conjured up regularly whenever it suits the argument........I'll get me coat.
Vlad, I deliberately missed out the mention of Pixies, Leprechauns, Unicorns or god, all equally viable ideas, with due deference to your feelings about them and you're still complaining?
Kind regards, ippy.
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We thought at first it was a hoax, but when things happened before our eyes we have to revise that opinion.
I hope you don't mind me pressing you on this , I am genuinely interested , please explain what happened before your eyes and who witnessed it ?
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The photos with images were using a film, which had to be processed. They were taken in the first three years or so of moving into that house. I don't know what happened to the negatives, I probably threw them away when we moved house.
So potential for issues during processing to be an explanation. Shame you can't check the negatives.
I too would like to know what it was you witnessed before your eyes if you don't mind expanding on that.
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I have bored people on this forum with the details over the years, so I am not going to go into it all again. However, the witnesses are many, including six policemen who I invited to take a 'ghost tour' of our property as a thank you for helping to find our DS son who had got lost on a mountain walk. They were a bit freaked out when in the lounge a larger than life stain, in the image of a monk, appeared on the wall behind them. They said they would prefer to catch criminals any day to living in our home. Several films were made of the phenomenon, including one commissioned by the Foreign Office, I still have no idea why they wanted one. An American film company offered us a ridiculously large sum of money so they could make a film, but when we heard how they were going to go about it, we turned them down flat, as it would be 99.9% fiction.
As for the 'Miracle Field', which became like a mini Lourdes for a while, whilst we permitted people to stand at the gate and imbibe the vibes we refused to take any money from them. People thought we were crazy, but we felt it would be morally wrong, especially as my husband and I were total sceptics.
ok I respect that . So as skeptics why were you not interested to investigate the phenomena , which would have been an obvious thing for me to do?
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We did try, but came up with nothing, besides which, we had much more important considerations when we were living there.
well each to their own
.If it had been me , based on what you've revealed on here , I would not have let it drop until I had got to the bottom of it. And your reluctance to do that and turning down 'a lot of money ' casts doubt on the veracity of your claims in my eyes
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Something I can speak about with experience that you could if you wanted to scale up to most things in life, I wear hearing aids one behind each ear, I take the off at night for obvious reasons and then put them back on/in each morning the sound they transmit into my ears is a rather tinny sound and it would be reasonably easy for any competent sound engineer to prove that the tinny sound the small speakers transmit to my ears will remain the same tinny sound for all of the time I'm wearing them.
But no, guess what, my brain, independently of anything I can control, turns the sound into an approximation of whatever it thinks the sounds it's dealing with should sound like and to me these sounds are no longer tinny sounds, to me, they all sound as warm and natural as my brain thinks they should be.
One of the jobs our brains do without any prompting is to make every effort to make sense of its surroundings, lots of things in our short lives don't necessarily make sense and I'm sure a part of these, senseless to me, religious or ideas spiritual, dependent on your take on the meaning of spiritual, are partly made up by our brains again trying to make sense of this world we all live in, nothing mystical about it, although I must concede it looks that way.
There's so much more to that simple statement of Russell's about the tea pot, than is immediately obvious.
Regards ippy
I do of course know exactly what you mean! And this last week the hearing in my left ear has deteriorated a bit more and I'm going to have to have that hearing aid adjusted this week. Interestingly, I think my brain has already begun to adjust.
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Hi everyone,
Atheists usually accuse believers of seeing things they want to see. From Floo's case it is clear that atheists and skeptics ignore and turn a blind eye to things that are staring them in the face ...just because they don't want to believe it.
What is the use of asking for evidence if you don't want to see it?
Cheers.
Sriram
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Kirlian photography seems to have died out.
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well each to their own
.If it had been me , based on what you've revealed on here , I would not have let it drop until I had got to the bottom of it.
Me too.
By the way, how is the new hip getting on?
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Me too.
By the way, how is the new hip getting on?
well SD, it's doing well , each day better than the last however getting through the night without waking and having to get up is a bit of a problem. Also pain management has some weird side effects , not too unpleasant though ;)
thanks for asking :)
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What I find interesting is Floo is the best type of witness to this type of phenomena simply because she is a skeptic. Someone that does not believe in this stuff would surely not make it all up. Walter, I disagree with you.... surely Floo would have accepted offers of payment if she had contrived the events for the purpose of making some cash. So, together with what I have seen of Floo's character on this forum, I take her to be genuine.
So, does anyone have any explanation for poltergeist activity?
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As I said we had much more important things on which to focus our attention at the time. As for money, we had moral objections to accepting the money we were offered. If you don't wish to accept any of that it is entirely up to you.
you're very gracious
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well SD, it's doing well , each day better than the last however getting through the night without waking and having to get up is a bit of a problem. Also pain management has some weird side effects , not too unpleasant though ;)
thanks for asking :)
I'm very pleased to hear it. Make absolutely sure you do the exercises required to regain muscle strength. You have to be conscientious and do them as often as told - it really is worth every minute of your time thus spent.
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Hi everyone,
Atheists usually accuse believers of seeing things they want to see. From Floo's case it is clear that atheists and skeptics ignore and turn a blind eye to things that are staring them in the face ...just because they don't want to believe it.
What is the use of asking for evidence if you don't want to see it?
Cheers.
Sriram
we are not all called Floo and there is no way of knowing what Floo describes is evidence of any kind because it was not investigated .
People who see fairies believe in fairies!!!!!!
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Hi everyone,
Atheists usually accuse believers of seeing things they want to see. From Floo's case it is clear that atheists and skeptics ignore and turn a blind eye to things that are staring them in the face ...just because they don't want to believe it.
What is the use of asking for evidence if you don't want to see it?
Cheers.
Sriram
No, they see the phenomena but don't jump to the conclusion that it is to do with ghosts etc
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What I find interesting is Floo is the best type of witness to this type of phenomena simply because she is a skeptic. Someone that does not believe in this stuff would surely not make it all up. Walter, I disagree with you.... surely Floo would have accepted offers of payment if she had contrived the events for the purpose of making some cash. So, together with what I have seen of Floo's character on this forum, I take her to be genuine.
So, does anyone have any explanation for poltergeist activity?
Imagination for one.
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I'm very pleased to hear it. Make absolutely sure you do the exercises required to regain muscle strength. You have to be conscientious and do them as often as told - it really is worth every minute of your time thus spent.
quite right too .
Fortunately I'm recovering at my sisters place with a huge flat garden with a specially designed foot/wheelchair way winding through flower beds with seating every so far along for resting . So when the weather permits it I'm up and walking round on crutches as often as possible . It's ideal
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What I find interesting is Floo is the best type of witness to this type of phenomena simply because she is a skeptic. Someone that does not believe in this stuff would surely not make it all up. Walter, I disagree with you.... surely Floo would have accepted offers of payment if she had contrived the events for the purpose of making some cash. So, together with what I have seen of Floo's character on this forum, I take her to be genuine.
So, does anyone have any explanation for poltergeist activity?
this post only highlights you gullibility , this is a forum of people of dubious character ;)
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Maeght, I was hoping you would appear to give me a scientific explanation.
C'mon now..... you're making Floo out to be a fibber.
There are hundreds, thousands of pieces of evidence with witnesses to poltergeist activity..... they can't all be making it up.
The thing is, if you can't take on board the spiritual you can't get off the starting blocks with any of this.
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Walter, I hope you health continues to improve.
Please come out of denial..... ;)
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There are hundreds, thousands of pieces of evidence with witnesses to poltergeist activity..... they can't all be making it up.
You mean anecdotal claims, which is insufficient since people make mistakes and tell lies - how have you excluded these risks?
The thing is, if you can't take on board the spiritual you can't get off the starting blocks with any of this.
The thing is; you are begging the question.
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Just a thought, now we mostly use digital photography I haven't seen any goastie photos taken on the digital format, if we do get any I wonder what they may look like?
I guess it'll underline the tendency of the old chemically processed film to produce variations of the, should be even distribution, faultlessly even spread of chemicals over the whole of both the negatives and finished products.
It'll be interesting to see what the new digital ghosts look like.
ippy
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No, they see the phenomena but don't jump to the conclusion that it is to do with ghosts etc
Alright...let us assume that you have similar experiences from tomorrow.
Suddenly writings appear on your walls. You hear footsteps when there is no one around. The selfies you take with your wife include a strange third person in the frame. You look into the mirror in your bathroom and see the reflection of some stranger standing behind you. Suddenly objects in the house get thrown about. Doors are opened and banged when there is no breeze.
You and your family members observe all this.
What will be your line of investigation and what conclusions will you reach?
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Just a thought, now we mostly use digital photography I haven't seen any goastie photos taken on the digital format, if we do get any I wonder what they may look like?
I guess it'll underline the tendency of the old chemically processed film to produce variations of the, should be even distribution, faultlessly even spread of chemicals over the whole of both the negatives and finished products.
It'll be interesting to see what the new digital ghosts look like.
ippy
The CCTV video of the accident victim I posted would be a digital one.
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Maeght, I was hoping you would appear to give me a scientific explanation.
C'mon now..... you're making Floo out to be a fibber.
There are hundreds, thousands of pieces of evidence with witnesses to poltergeist activity..... they can't all be making it up.
~consider this: amount of objective evidence for any poltergeist, spirit, ghost, etc = 0
amount of evidence for natural explanations = very high (I don't know percentages)
the correct and only answer for apparently unexplained phenomena = we don't know
the wrong answer, always, is poltergeist/spirit/ghost/fantasy-of-choice
The thing is, if you can't take on board the spiritual you can't get off the starting blocks with any of this.
Until you can identify and define *the spiritual* then it is you who cannot get started.
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Maeght, I was hoping you would appear to give me a scientific explanation.
No I'm not, I didn't refer to Floo but mentioned imagination as one possible cause. Even so, imagination is not the same as fibbing - you can imagine something and fully believe it.
There are hundreds, thousands of pieces of evidence with witnesses to poltergeist activity..... they can't all be making it up.
Why not? Not saying they are but why couldn't they all be made up? I have yet to see any evidence other than anecdotal evidence and stories. Show me something which can be examined and verified and that might be different.
The thing is, if you can't take on board the spiritual you can't get off the starting blocks with any of this.
If you go down the spiritual route then you won't get off the starting blocks of a proper investigation. If you have the spiritual in mind of course you will see these stories and phenomena as evidence to support that,
Lets see. In Hampton Court there is a corridor reputedly hunted by the ghost of Jane Seymour. People have reported feeling could at a certain spot in the corridor. What would you conclude from that?
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Alright...let us assume that you have similar experiences from tomorrow.
Suddenly writings appear on your walls. You hear footsteps when there is no one around. The selfies you take with your wife include a strange third person in the frame. You look into the mirror in your bathroom and see the reflection of some stranger standing behind you. Suddenly objects in the house get thrown about. Doors are opened and banged when there is no breeze.
You and your family members observe all this.
What will be your line of investigation and what conclusions will you reach?
someone is goin mad!
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You have no idea what you are talking about. We have had plenty of witnesses to the phenomena, including an author who was interviewing me for a BBC Radio programme.
I assume the reporter was interviewing you regarding the phenomena so would have had that in his mind to begin with, yes?
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You have no idea what you are talking about. We have had plenty of witnesses to the phenomena, including an author who was interviewing me for a BBC Radio programme.
what was the radio programme called , ill look it up?
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You have no idea what you are talking about. We have had plenty of witnesses to the phenomena, including an author who was interviewing me for a BBC Radio programme.
Since there are no such things as any spirits etc etc, then although the explanation was not found, it remains a99.9(recurring)% certainty that it was perfectly natural.
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Since there are no such things as any spirits etc etc, then although the explanation was not found, it remains a99.9(recurring)% certainty that it was perfectly natural.
Ah! So...you usually start with the conclusion and then investigate accordingly?! Nice!
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Alright...let us assume that you have similar experiences from tomorrow.
Suddenly writings appear on your walls. You hear footsteps when there is no one around. The selfies you take with your wife include a strange third person in the frame. You look into the mirror in your bathroom and see the reflection of some stranger standing behind you. Suddenly objects in the house get thrown about. Doors are opened and banged when there is no breeze.
You and your family members observe all this.
What will be your line of investigation and what conclusions will you reach?
A hypothetical scenario, but of course you would look to set up cameras around the house for example to see if this wall writing can be captured happening, whether objects do truly move with no one there etc. If these happenings can be captured by cameras or other sensors when the house is totally empty then this would be very interesting.
I work in an old building and there are often bangs and noises, sometimes quite loud. These are due to expansion and contraction of the building which have this effect due to its construction (metal framed, wooden boarding etc). This can be correlated with times of the day, presence of sun light on the buyilding etc which I am used to because I am there a lot of the time. People with a spiritual mind set who have been here at odd times have been spooked until I have explained this too them.
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Since there are no such things as any spirits etc etc, then although the explanation was not found, it remains a99.9(recurring)% certainty that it was perfectly natural.
and if there were strange goings on the last person you want round your house would be a psychic and his sidekick investigating it .
' what is it Sam , I'm busy?'
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Ah! So...you usually start with the conclusion and then investigate accordingly?! Nice!
Well, you start with a conclusion too, but then you're stuck, and can go no further, because there are no observations, independent and repeatable, on which to base a hypothesis, and therefore tests or experiments cannot be done.
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A hypothetical scenario, but of course you would look to set up cameras around the house for example to see if this wall writing can be captured happening, whether objects do truly move with no one there etc. If these happenings can be captured by cameras or other sensors when the house is totally empty then this would be very interesting.
I work in an old building and there are often bangs and noises, sometimes quite loud. These are due to expansion and contraction of the building which have this effect due to its construction (metal framed, wooden boarding etc). This can be correlated with times of the day, presence of sun light on the buyilding etc which I am used to because I am there a lot of the time. People with a spiritual mind set who have been here at odd times have been spooked until I have explained this too them.
Everyone has lived in houses with creaking doors and banging windows and swaying tree branches. That is very common and everyone is aware of such possibilities.
Hypothetically, if after installing cameras you have no clear idea about the footsteps or selfie images.... or you actually see the writings appear spontaneously or you see a dark grinning figure standing by your bedside when you wake at night and when you switch on the light there is no one there.. ......what will you conclude?
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Kirlian photography seems to have died out.
It was investigated comprehensively but no useful theories developed. The effects were essentially electric field effects due to a number of natural, everyday, factors.
This popped up the other day, interesting in itself - not paranormal:
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/flower-petals-have-blue-halos-attract-bees
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Floo:- You have no idea what you are talking about. We have had plenty of witnesses to the phenomena, including an author who was interviewing me for a BBC Radio programme.
How did they find out about it? Was it for Radio 4 'Haunted' series?
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Everyone has lived in houses with creaking doors and banging windows and swaying tree branches. That is very common and everyone is aware of such possibilities.
The point was that some people here asked if the place was haunted so despite what you say they headed down the spiritual route.
Hypothetically, if after installing cameras you have no clear idea about the footsteps or selfie images.... or you actually see the writings appear spontaneously or you see a dark grinning figure standing by your bedside when you wake at night and when you switch on the light there is no one there.. ......what will you conclude?
Hypothetically. I wouldn't conclude anything but would engage in further investigations. I wouldn't rule out ghosts etc but nor would I conclude it was ghosts but would file it as unexplained.
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Hi everyone,
Atheists usually accuse believers of seeing things they want to see. From Floo's case it is clear that atheists and skeptics ignore and turn a blind eye to things that are staring them in the face ...just because they don't want to believe it.
What is the use of asking for evidence if you don't want to see it?
Cheers.
Sriram
No Sriram, it's nothing to do with whether I want to believe these things of yours or not, I have no reason to believe these ideas of yours mainly because there is nothing in the way of evidence that would make me want to think anything other than combined with the fact that they look so obviously man made to me and there's every indication that they are in fact man made ideas.
Then when you take a look at how far back so many of these ideas come from, those times were not exactly set at the summer times of easily available fountains of knowledge, more like at some of our leanest times in terms of knowledge and to top all of that just take a look at the magic, mystical and superstitional claims.
I could easily deal with any of it, if or when in the very unlikely event, of some sort of supportable evidence being found and supplied, I'll be as devout a believer as the next person.
Sorry Sriram, at the moment the magical, mystical and superstition based parts of all of that religious stuff is just plain daft, silly to me.
Douglas Adams quotes sum religion up for me, I wish I could put my words as skilfully as he did.
Regards ippy.
P. S. Don't forget we only disagree on ideas.
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Quite often we can't "see" stuff because we don't know it is there or don't have the equipment that could detect it: Dark matter, dark energy, gravitational waves, gorillas joining into basketball games ...
Quite often "evidence" reported anecdotally stops occurring once investigators arrive. This does not mean anything other than something may have happened that we don't have an off the shelf explanation for.
No experiments to investigate paranormal events/effects have confirmed any paranormal causes (at least, that I have come across in my limited experience).
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Ah! So...you usually start with the conclusion and then investigate accordingly?! Nice!
And you don't?
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The CCTV video of the accident victim I posted would be a digital one.
Sriram, I'm certain you're seeing whatever it is you want to see, the incidents you're referring to would be so common place it'd hardly be worth commenting about if there were any substance in them, it isn't.
Regards ippy
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Yes but at one point he stopped the recording as he claimed to see a monk walking up and down the kitchen, I had seen that myself on a couple of occasions, but it had not been mentioned to the media.
Can you be sure he couldn'thave been aware of the monk story?
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Floo I asked in post 135 was the programme for BBC4's 'Haunting' series? Can we still get it or is it now archived?
You woz famous!
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Yes but at one point he stopped the recording as he claimed to see a monk walking up and down the kitchen, I had seen that myself on a couple of occasions, but it had not been mentioned to the media.
so he goes to your place to talk about strange behaviour but stops the recording when he sees some . doesn't make sense !!!!!
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It wouldn't have been seen though, radio not TV. He probably carried on recording floo and himself after recovering!
(Could have been Martians. I watched a bit of a film on TV this morning, a Hammer film, 'Quatermass and the Pit'.)
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Yes but at one point he stopped the recording as he claimed to see a monk walking up and down the kitchen, I had seen that myself on a couple of occasions, but it had not been mentioned to the media.
This becomes more and more intriguing......
You (and some others) actually see a monk walking up and down your kitchen several times.... and even though he is not of the flesh and blood variety, you just dismiss the events from your mind and hope for some 'scientific' explanation to emerge?!! Amazing!!
Besides the ghost/spirit explanation, what other explanation do you think would be forthcoming?! The usual ones such as ...its an illusion...its all your imagination...what medicines have you been taking...its play of light and shadow...maybe someone was dressing up and fooling you...was it Halloween...did you have proper sleep....and so on... ??
Or do you expect some mishmash about magnetic forces, gravity, EM forces, atmospheric effect, ionized particles......and stuff like that....?? ::)
I still believe your indifference and stubborn reluctance to accept the varied phenomena as paranormal, is born of fear! So also most other people's....
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Sriram, it's amazing the lengths some will go to to stay in denial.
Some on this thread saying this phenomena is imagined? How can something be imagined when there are independent witnesses. How can you imagine things in your house disappearing, being misplaced or flying round a room? You would have to be quite poorly..
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First of all, let's get some basic neuroscience and psychology out of the way. We don't "see" things, we perceive them. Our eyes are rather imperfect organs with which we receive visual information. The actual seeing is done in the visual cortex, contained in the parietal lobe of the brain, although appropriate investigation also shows that other parts of the brain are involved.
At the fairly mechanistic level of visual perception it can be shown that, in the eye itself, only a small percentage of the visual field is "in colour" only a very small area is "sharp", that there is an area with no visual sensors at all, the "blind spot" and that visual information falling the left side of the retina is sent to the right-hand side of the brain (and vice versa). What we perceive as reality is actually an elaborate construction based on visual information, memory and expectation.
Perception is not veridical. it can allow for all sorts of subjective influences to condition what we think is real. Another perceptual phenomenon is music. Musical instruments do not produce music - they produce a toot, or a whistle or a plunk or a boom. Our brains reassemble those sounds into the physical and emotional experience we call music. If you want an interesting example of this, at the start of the last movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony, the first and second violins are each playing their parts from the score but you hear neither - you hear a melody which nobody is playing.
To get onto digital photography. The advent of digital photography has produced the situation where almost anyone can produce elaborate fakes. A few years ago the film Gravity won numerous awards. But few people watching the film were aware that most of what they were seeing was produced in the computers of a company called Framestore, in central London. About 90% of the film was the result of digital processes. The software to manipulate digital photographs - both still and moving - is readily available, in some cases simply by downloading from the internet.
The "spirit" image in the clip which Sriram finds so convincing can be much more readily accepted as fake than real by people with open minds.
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The "spirit" image in the clip which Sriram finds so convincing can be much more readily accepted as fake than real by people with open minds.
I believe that spirits exist. In fact I believe that we all are spirits that are evolving over several births.... and death is only shedding of one body to acquire another one. That is my philosophy of life. I have reiterated that many times on here.
So....I have no problem accepting that image in the video as genuine. It ties in with my philosophy. You wanted direct evidence...you got it!
But I don't know for a fact that the video is genuine and so it is possible that it is fake. However, if it is fake that does not change my philosophy in any way. I still believe in spirits and after life and reincarnation....
However, if that image is genuine as also Floo's experiences.....then you people have a problem! All of you have considerable rethinking to do. Your only other option presently is to keep your chin up, grit your teeth, laugh collectively at me and keep insisting again and again that it is all fake. :D
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I have no more to say on this topic.
I'm not surprised at your reluctance to continue with this . I find the whole story highly suspect (and that is being polite). If you didn't want discuss it why bring it up in the first place .
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I believe that spirits exist. In fact I believe that we all are spirits that are evolving over several births.... and death is only shedding of one body to acquire another one. That is my philosophy of life. I have reiterated that many times on here.
So....I have no problem accepting that image in the video as genuine. It ties in with my philosophy. You wanted direct evidence...you got it!
But I don't know for a fact that the video is genuine and so it is possible that it is fake. However, if it is fake that does not change my philosophy in any way. I still believe in spirits and after life and reincarnation....
However, if that image is genuine as also Floo's experiences.....then you people have a problem! All of you have considerable rethinking to do. Your only other option presently is to keep your chin up, grit your teeth, laugh collectively at me and keep insisting again and again that it is all fake. :D
I cant even be bothered to explain . Have a nice day ::)
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Sriram, we are not laughing at you collectively. You are a valued contributor to this forum and present us with a view of the world which, in many respects, is refreshing.
In this instance, however, Occam's razor, the rule of parsimony - whatever you prefer to call it - suggests that there is a much simpler explanation for the image than the one you accept.
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I have no more to say on this topic.
I understand Floo, based on some of the comments made.
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Sriram, it's amazing the lengths some will go to to stay in denial.
Some on this thread saying this phenomena is imagined? How can something be imagined when there are independent witnesses. How can you imagine things in your house disappearing, being misplaced or flying round a room? You would have to be quite poorly..
Its not about being in denial its about not being gullible and viewing stories with a health scepticism. Imagination is one suggestion but this word refers to processes such as those described by Harrowby Hall.
What conclusion did you draw from the Hampton Court scenario?
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I believe that spirits exist. In fact I believe that we all are spirits that are evolving over several births.... and death is only shedding of one body to acquire another one. That is my philosophy of life. I have reiterated that many times on here.
So....I have no problem accepting that image in the video as genuine. It ties in with my philosophy. You wanted direct evidence...you got it!
Ah! So...you usually start with the conclusion and then investigate accordingly?! Nice!
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HH #148
Super post. Far,far more exciting information than thinking there are ghosts, etc etc.
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HH #148
Super post. Far,far more exciting information than thinking there are ghosts, etc etc.
Yes I'v just read H H's post 148 it fits in with everything I've read and heard about this subject and very well written out.
As for laughing at Sriram's take on the subject don't include me with the laughter bit, I'm sure if he were to take a closer look into the subject I'm certain he would be taking a more healthy sceptical view about supposed pictures of spirits etc.
Regards ippy.
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HH, ippy and everyone,
I was tongue in cheek about the laughter bit. Don't take that seriously. I guess we all laugh at anyone who doesn't agree with our point of view. No offence taken or given.
About the CCTV video...I do think that it could be genuine unless someone proves that it is fake. If Floo (a hardened skeptic) and others, can see a ghost monk walking around her kitchen and ghostly images appear on home photographs, I see no problem in a video showing a spirit leaving the body of an accident victim.
Some of you might take Floo's experiences with a pinch of salt because it doesn't fit in with your ideas. It does fit in with my ideas of the world and so I do believe that they are genuine. I am only astounded at the completely inconsistent way in which Floo handles this matter, nothing else.
Cheers.
Sriram
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HH, ippy and everyone,
I was tongue in cheek about the laughter bit. Don't take that seriously. I guess we all laugh at anyone who doesn't agree with our point of view. No offence taken or given.
About the CCTV video...I do think that it could be genuine unless someone proves that it is fake. If Floo (a hardened skeptic) and others, can see a ghost monk walking around her kitchen and ghostly images appear on home photographs, I see no problem in a video showing a spirit leaving the body of an accident victim.
Some of you might take Floo's experiences with a pinch of salt because it doesn't fit in with your ideas. It does fit in with my ideas of the world and so I do believe that they are genuine. I am only astounded at the completely inconsistent way in which Floo handles this matter, nothing else.
Cheers.
Sriram
yes, I totally agree with you last point.
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HH, ippy and everyone,
I was tongue in cheek about the laughter bit. Don't take that seriously. I guess we all laugh at anyone who doesn't agree with our point of view. No offence taken or given.
About the CCTV video...I do think that it could be genuine unless someone proves that it is fake. If Floo (a hardened skeptic) and others, can see a ghost monk walking around her kitchen and ghostly images appear on home photographs, I see no problem in a video showing a spirit leaving the body of an accident victim.
Some of you might take Floo's experiences with a pinch of salt because it doesn't fit in with your ideas. It does fit in with my ideas of the world and so I do believe that they are genuine. I am only astounded at the completely inconsistent way in which Floo handles this matter, nothing else.
Cheers.
Sriram
I've yet to see or hear of any of these so called spirit photos or films standing up to investigation, I very much doubt if they did, those that take them seriously could be prevented from shouting it from the rooftops, I'm listening; no nothing yet.
ippy
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I understand Floo, based on some of the comments made.
Seems it's embarrassing for floo now.
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Seems it's embarrassing for floo now.
Yes...I can understand that.
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About the CCTV video...I do think that it could be genuine unless someone proves that it is fake.
And I think that it is a fake until someone proved that it is genuine.
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replying to Seb who says it's sad that people are using poor woman's death.
But that's just your belief isn't it?! No proof that it is fake.
After all, most people in the world do believe in spirits and life after death! The videos could just be evidence of that aspect of reality.
Could be but isn't clear enough for me to believe it. Not that I don't believe in spirits but this looks vague and dubious.
It's good to be sceptical. If something is irrefutable it will be believed all the more because other occurrences have been rejected. There have always been plenty of people around wanting to fool others unfortunately but their findings are usually debunked.
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I wrote this earlier today but I have toned it down a bit! :) This is not directed at anyone particular...
Consider the fact that scientists, doctors, neurologists, biologists, chemists, physicists and anyone else I've forgotten have worked and studied and tested and then studied and work more to discover the facts about how our brains and five senses function. As a result of that accumulated knowledge, pain can be alleviated, brain tumours removed, epilepsy controlled, aids to sight and hearing developed, and so on.
Is it not something of an insult to all their work to think that, since the number of actual poltergeists etc forw which objective evidence has been found is zero, to believe that such things exist?. This must tell believers in such things something, surely?
HH's #148 says it all.
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What if the person who believes in a poltergeist is a scientist? Are they insulting themselves? And what would it tell us?
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What if the person who believes in a poltergeist is a scientist? Are they insulting themselves? And what would it tell us?
there is one and I'll tell you his name when I remember it but he is wrong .
Being a scientist does not exclude you from being a fool !
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there is one and I'll tell you his name when I remember it but he is wrong .
Being a scientist does not exclude you from being a fool !
rupert Sheldrake is the bloke I'm thinking of
Look him up if you can be bothered 👍
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rupert Sheldrake is the bloke I'm thinking of
Look him up if you can be bothered 👍
Know of him well. Think it is pseudoscience BUT tons of scientists have beliefs I disagree with. There is a false divide proposed in SusanDoris's post
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What if the person who believes in a poltergeist is a scientist? Are they insulting themselves? And what would it tell us?
Do you know of one such scientist? If not, then there doesn't seem much point considering the hypothetical I think.
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rupert Sheldrake is the bloke I'm thinking of
Look him up if you can be bothered 👍
Wikipedia has him summed up well I think.
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Do you know of one such scientist? If not, then there doesn't seem much point considering the hypothetical I think.
So you don't have to evidence your positive claim? A big hello to the NPF.
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Wikipedia has him summed up well I think.
Except he is a scientist but then you want to use the No True Scotsman fallacy.
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Know of him well. Think it is pseudoscience BUT tons of scientists have beliefs I disagree with. There is a false divide proposed in SusanDoris's post
thats a bit vague and sweeping NS Have you got any examples ?
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Hi everyone,
I have discussed this many times here. I don't understand why people think that the findings of science somehow automatically rule out spirits and ghosts? There is no connection at all between them and they are not mutually exclusive in any way.
Many people seem to have this impression merely because science has disproved certain religious mythology....such as Adam & Eve, six day creation and so on. Because of this people tend to think that all spirituality is disproved. This is not so.
Spirit is a word that relates to what each of us really is individually. You can use the word Consciousness or Self or any other if you are not comfortable with the word spirit. The Sanskrit word Atma suits me well. The word spirit need not come with religious or mythological baggage.
The nature of the body and the nature of the external world are unaffected by the fact that we are spirits who occupy the body. Nature and its mechanisms are independent of that reality. Even in ancient philosophies such as Samkhya and Yoga there is a clear separation of spirit and Nature. Just because we understand certain aspects of Nature does not in any way exclude or deny the spiritual world.
It is like a person sitting inside a car and driving it. The structure and mechanisms of the car do not tell us anything of the nature of the person driving it. They are two independent and unrelated issues.
A car mechanic may know a lot about the car but he cannot be blind to the fact that a human being drives the car. Similarly a scientist need not be blind to the fact that spirit/consciousness are independent of the body but are instrumental in driving it. A dead body is enough to tell us what the body is without Consciousness/spirit/Atma.
What a ghost really is could be a little more complicated but more on that some other time.
Cheers.
Sriram
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I have discussed this many times here. I don't understand why people think that the findings of science somehow automatically rule out spirits and ghosts?
It's not so much that science rules them out, more that there is nothing substantive to rule them in.
Spirit is a word that relates to what each of us really is individually. You can use the word Consciousness or Self or any other if you are not comfortable with the word spirit. The Sanskrit word Atma suits me well. The word spirit need not come with religious or mythological baggage.
Consciousness/self in themselves do not imply baggage, but it is the claim that such things are independent of body that introduces unnecessary woo to the terms.
It is like a person sitting inside a car and driving it. The structure and mechanisms of the car do not tell us anything of the nature of the person driving it. They are two independent and unrelated issues.
That's just a hugely naive analogy, as I've pointed out many a time. In reality, the two aspects of being are intimately and tightly related, like two sides of the same coin.
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It's not so much that science rules them out, more that there is nothing substantive to rule them in.
Consciousness/self in themselves do not imply baggage, but it is the claim that such things are independent of body that introduces unnecessary woo to the terms.
That's just a hugely naive analogy, as I've pointed out many a time. In reality, the two aspects of being are intimately and tightly related, like two sides of the same coin.
The point is .....people cannot argue that... 'Science had discovered this and that and so the idea of Spirit and after-life is not valid any more'. This argument is meaningless because the two are not mutually exclusive.
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That is not what people are saying Sriram. Rather it is that science has found no evidence for spirits etc so their existence is purely a matter of personal belief
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The point is .....people cannot argue that... 'Science had discovered this and that and so the idea of Spirit and after-life is not valid any more'. This argument is meaningless because the two are not mutually exclusive.
This self destruct post of yours Sriram points out clearly that it's you missing the point, again.
ippy
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That is not what people are saying Sriram. Rather it is that science has found no evidence for spirits etc so their existence is purely a matter of personal belief
No...please read Susan's post 166.
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No...please read Susan's post 166.
I've just read it again and it still doesn't say what you want it to say.
Unsurprisingly.
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thats a bit vague and sweeping NS Have you got any examples ?
There are lots of scientists who are religious.
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There are lots of scientists who are religious.
I once found a list by faculty showing percentages of religious 'scientists' and from memory , physics showed lowest right down to social sciences which showed highest number of religious.
I think in physics it was lower than 12 percent
iv just had a look for it but cant bloody find it . perhaps it was in a book !
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I once found a list by faculty showing percentages of religious 'scientists' and from memory , physics showed lowest right down to social sciences which showed highest number of religious.
I think in physics it was lower than 12 percent
iv just had a look for it but cant bloody find it . perhaps it was in a book !
Not challenging those figures - it's still a lot in the sense of a large number
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Not challenging those figures - it's still a lot in the sense of a large number
to be honest ,I only count physicists as proper scientists , anything else is just 'stamp collecting ' ;)
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No...please read Susan's post 166.
I've read it again and agree with Shaker
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to be honest ,I only count physicists as proper scientists , anything else is just 'stamp collecting ' ;)
Arguably a lot of physics could be in the realms of the unfalsifiable and is therefore not science under the usual current definition - which is why Sean Carroll (one of the posters that Vlad has on his walls around his shrine to Dawkins) has argued that the definition needs to be changed.
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No...please read Susan's post 166.
Read it and seems to a match for what I posted.
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I would suggest that science does not validate in any way the presence of spirits or ghosts. This doesn't mean that they don't exist of course, but they don't seem to be amenable to serious scientific inquiry. So, if one wants to believe in such things, no problem, but it will almost certainly be on the basis of personal experience or/and anecdotal accounts.
Yes, you do get some scientists who think that belief in the paranormal is justified scientifically, but the methodology of science doesn't seem to substantiate their findings. One such is Rupert Sheldrake, but the methodology he has employed in his experiments is extremely suspect and generally found wanting.
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Arguably a lot of physics could be in the realms of the unfalsifiable and is therefore not science under the usual current definition - which is why Sean Carroll (one of the posters that Vlad has on his walls around his shrine to Dawkins) has argued that the definition needs to be changed.
yes , I've been reading and watching him on this matter and he seems to be sticking his neck out a bit . I am not qualified enough to argue against him and I realise he is shaking things up around perceived and accepted methods to include human experience in some circumstances. I haven't looked into it for a while so don't know if any conclusions have been arrived at yet
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yes , I've been reading and watching him on this matter and he seems to be sticking his neck out a bit . I am not qualified enough to argue against him and I realise he is shaking things up around perceived and accepted methods to include human experience in some circumstances. I haven't looked into it for a while so don't know if any conclusions have been arrived at yet
To an extent the problem is that while there is a current consensus on what science is which clusters around Popper's approach, that hasn't really been the case for most of the time science has been carried out, and was hardly in place before it was challenged by Kuhn and then Foucault.
The extremely abstruse nature, even for people who might have followed much of physics, of theoretical physics now presents a barrier where even basic conversation seems impossible. For me, too many physicists dismiss ..... It's that word....giving you warning....Philosophy but then appear to do a form of philosophy that doesn't feel like physics e.g. Kaku
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To an extent the problem is that while there is s current consensus on what science is which clusters around Popper's approach, that hasn't really been the case for most of the time science has been carried out, and was hardly in place before it was challenged by Kuhn and then Foucault.
The extremely abstruse nature, even for people who might have followed much of physics, of theoretical physics now presents a barrier where even basic conversation seems impossible. For me, too many physicists dismiss ..... It's that word....giving you warning....Philosophy SNF then appear to fo a form of philosophy that doesn't feel like physics e.g. Kaku
I don't think it is necessary to mention any of the people you have referenced from the past or use the word ph...ph...phi
to encompass a new way of thinking , which is what Carroll is espousing . I view it as in his work Carroll has experienced anomalies which don't fit exactly into the scientific method and is looking for a way to expand it , no need to look at what people said in the past . He strikes me as brave enough and has the knowledge and courage of his convictions added to a brilliant skill of explaining his ideas. I shall follow more closely I think
Mr Kaku also brilliant is a master of self publicity , if you've got it use it , that's what I say
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I don't think it is necessary to mention any of the people you have referenced from the past or use the word ph...ph...phi
to encompass a new way of thinking , which is what Carroll is espousing . I view it as in his work Carroll has experienced anomalies which don't fit exactly into the scientific method and is looking for a way to expand it , no need to look at what people said in the past . He strikes me as brave enough and has the knowledge and courage of his convictions added to a brilliant skill of explaining his ideas. I shall follow more closely I think
Mr Kaku also brilliant is a master of self publicity , if you've got it use it , that's what I say
That's nice but if you don't understand how recently that idea is from Popper then it's easy to get sucked into the impression that what Carroll is arguing is against the history of science. Which is why it isn't really a new way of thinking.
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That's nice but if you don't understand how recently that idea is from Popper then it's easy to get sucked into the impression that what Carroll is arguing is against the history of science. Which is why it isn't really a new way of thinking.
Popper? sorry I thought you were talking about my granddad! ;)
couldn't resist that
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Popper? sorry I thought you were talking about my granddad! ;)
couldn't resist that
Not the first thing that comes to mind for me
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Not the first thing that comes to mind for me
that's cos you're naughty !
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I once found a list by faculty showing percentages of religious 'scientists' and from memory , physics showed lowest right down to social sciences which showed highest number of religious.
I think in physics it was lower than 12 percent
iv just had a look for it but cant bloody find it . perhaps it was in a book !
Agreed! I've seen quite a few times over the years this claim that 'many scientists are religious', but when it comes down to it, the number who are physicists, astronomers, etc is very low indeed, and then it turns out they were retired, had been drawn into the woo etc. who is able to suspend his disbelief and say he worships a god of some sort.
I'd like to see someone come up with the name of a current, working at the cutting edge of astronomy, physics, space engineering, etc.
Edited to add: I recently watched again Sean Carroll's you tube on QFT the Higgs-boson revisited. It is well worth watching I think. That may not be the exact title, but google should find it easily.
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Agreed! I've seen quite a few times over the years this claim that 'many scientists are religious', but when it comes down to it, the number who are physicists, astronomers, etc is very low indeed, and then it turns out they were retired, had been drawn into the woo etc. who is able to suspend his disbelief and say he worships a god of some sort.
I'd like to see someone come up with the name of a current, working at the cutting edge of astronomy, physics, space engineering, etc
n
Edited to add: I recently watched again Sean Carroll's you tube on QFT the Higgs-boson revisited. It is well worth watching I think. That may not be the exact title, but google should find it easily.
thanks Susan
Good post and I'll have a look for the vid later x
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Agreed! I've seen quite a few times over the years this claim that 'many scientists are religious', but when it comes down to it, the number who are physicists, astronomers, etc is very low indeed, and then it turns out they were retired, had been drawn into the woo etc. who is able to suspend his disbelief and say he worships a god of some sort.
I'd like to see someone come up with the name of a current, working at the cutting edge of astronomy, physics, space engineering, etc
n
Edited to add: I recently watched again Sean Carroll's you tube on QFT the Higgs-boson revisited. It is well worth watching I think. That may not be the exact title, but google should find it easily.
Steve Jones Biologist U. C. L. Will he do Susan.
ippy
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Steve Jones Biologist U. C. L. Will he do Susan.
ippy
Have you got the right man ippy? Steve Jones is an atheist.
http://tinyurl.com/y84jqxxm
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Agreed! I've seen quite a few times over the years this claim that 'many scientists are religious', but when it comes down to it, the number who are physicists, astronomers, etc is very low indeed, and then it turns out they were retired, had been drawn into the woo etc. who is able to suspend his disbelief and say he worships a god of some sort.
I'd like to see someone come up with the name of a current, working at the cutting edge of astronomy, physics, space engineering, etc
n
Edited to add: I recently watched again Sean Carroll's you tube on QFT the Higgs-boson revisited. It is well worth watching I think. That may not be the exact title, but google should find it easily.
Let's remember first of all that my statement was there are lots of scientists who I disagree with. Now given that Walter states under 12% of physicists and higher for other disciplines. That's a big number. As to your claim that any who did believe it from those fields were drawn into it because they were old that's an unevidenced assertion and a No True Scotsman fallacy.
I am unsure of who is at the cutting edge of those disciplines and I don't know the religious persuasion of those that I know of who are other than a few obvious ones, but I note the moving of the goalposts.
Anyway just to check what is your opinion of say Francis Collins, Simon Conway Morris and Ken Miller?
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NS #202
I'll come back to respond as soon as I can.
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Let's remember first of all that my statement was there are lots of scientists who I disagree with. Now given that Walter states under 12% of physicists and higher for other disciplines. That's a big number. As to your claim that any who did believe it from those fields were drawn into it because they were old that's an unevidenced assertion and a No True Scotsman fallacy.
I am unsure of who is at the cutting edge of those disciplines and I don't know the religious persuasion of those that I know of who are other than a few obvious ones, but I note the moving of the goalposts.
Anyway just to check what is your opinion of say Francis Collins, Simon Conway Morris and Ken Miller?
an example that anomalies occur in nature . The ability to compartmentalise different and opposing thoughts at the same time as in cognitive dissonance and still fully function in your field does not mean you are correct about the opposing one .
Humans are very strange creatures and in these cases I personally have no respect for them
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an example that anomalies occur in nature . The ability to compartmentalise different and opposing thoughts at the same time as in cognitive dissonance and still fully function in your field does not mean you are correct about the opposing one .
Humans are very strange creatures and in these cases I personally have no respect for them
And since I wasn't suggesting they are correct in a different field, one only has to look at Pauling to understand that. But that in turn means the quotation of any number of scientists as regards a non scientific question is of no more worth than any random group.
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NS #202
I'll come back to respond as soon as I can.
No problem, keep tapping in all senses!
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And since I wasn't suggesting they are correct in a different field, one only has to look at Pauling to understand that. But that in turn means the quotation of any number of scientists as regards a non scientific question is of no more worth than any random group.
Feynman said: "A scientist looking at a non-scientific problem is as dumb as the next guy."
That said, it would be nice to think that the sort of mental training that the scientific endeavour inculcates (hopefully) means that they needn't be as dumb as the next guy. Going by the sheer amount of fairly elementary fallacies they commit that wouldn't go through on the nod at work I don't think that can be said of many religious scientists. None that I'm aware of, anyway.
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Feynman said: "A scientist looking at a non-scientific problem is as dumb as the next guy."
That said, it would be nice to think that the sort of mental training that the scientific endeavour inculcates (hopefully) means that they needn't be as dumb as the next guy.
Anecdotally it often feels like the opposite, as when dealing with issues where there is no right answer.
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Have you got the right man ippy? Steve Jones is an atheist.
http://tinyurl.com/y84jqxxm
Yes - that was my point too.
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And since I wasn't suggesting they are correct in a different field, one only has to look at Pauling to understand that. But that in turn means the quotation of any number of scientists as regards a non scientific question is of no more worth than any random group.
spot on
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Have you got the right man ippy? Steve Jones is an atheist.
http://tinyurl.com/y84jqxxm
Of course he is, I misread Susan's post, bit busy at the mo, painting my living room ceiling, must have had a dob of paint in my eye.
Apologies.
ippy
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Ns 202
All three, however valuable and useful their scientific work and research have been, appear to have a large blind spot. I think it is sad that they have allowed belief in a totally unevidenced God to cloud their views. One wonders how much more they could achieve in the world of science without such a belief.
I obtained some quotes :
http://www.equip.org/article/no-god-of-the-gaps-allowed-francis-collins-
Collins is an Evangelical Christian [1] and a theistic evolutionist[2], which exasperates biologists…
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/simon-conway-different habitats
Conway Morris then takes up Alfred Russel Wallace’s nineteenth-century position that the evoution of the human mind is inexplicable by evolution:
I see that Ken Miller is a Roman Catholic, so however much he may think he can separate that from his scientific work, I hope that he is being constantly challenged, so that future generations do not fall into the trap of belief.
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Ns 202
All three, however valuable and useful their scientific work and research have been, appear to have a large blind spot. I think it is sad that they have allowed belief in a totally unevidenced God to cloud their views. One wonders how much more they could achieve in the world of science without such a belief.
I obtained some quotes :
http://www.equip.org/article/no-god-of-the-gaps-allowed-francis-collins-https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/simon-conway-different habitatsI see that Ken Miller is a Roman Catholic, so however much he may think he can separate that from his scientific work, I hope that he is being constantly challenged, so that future generations do not fall into the trap of belief.
And again, the point here is that there are scientists who believe things I disagree with. I also disagree with your repeated No True Scotsman with a soupçon of Ipse Dixit here.
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NS
Okay!! :)
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And again, the point here is that there are scientists who believe things I disagree with. I also disagree with your repeated No True Scotsman with a soupçon of Ipse Dixit here.
It would be a NTS if it was being argued that they're not actually scientists. It isn't - Collins, Miller, SCM et. al. are all highly trained and qualified scientists in their respective fields; what's being stated is that they're inconsistent in their application of the scientific method, believing things on emotionally appealing grounds that they would never in a million years accept professionally.
Walter had the right of it in #204: "The ability to compartmentalise different and opposing thoughts at the same time as in cognitive dissonance and still fully function in your field does not mean you are correct about the opposing one".
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It would be a NTS if it was being argued that they're not actually scientists. It isn't - Collins, Miller, SCM et. al. are all highly trained and qualified scientists in their respective fields; what's being stated is that they're inconsistent in their application of the scientific method, believing things on emotionally appealing grounds that they would never in a million years accept professionally.
Walter had the right of it in #204: "The ability to compartmentalise different and opposing thoughts at the same time as in cognitive dissonance and still fully function in your field does not mean you are correct about the opposing one".
Except it is exactly an NTS because it argues their views can be dismissed because they are their views. No true scientist could believe these things therefore these are not true scientists.
Because all I said was that there are many scientists whose views I disagree with
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Ns 202
All three, however valuable and useful their scientific work and research have been, appear to have a large blind spot. I think it is sad that they have allowed belief in a totally unevidenced God to cloud their views. One wonders how much more they could achieve in the world of science without such a belief.
I obtained some quotes :
http://www.equip.org/article/no-god-of-the-gaps-allowed-francis-collins-https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/simon-conway-different habitatsI see that Ken Miller is a Roman Catholic, so however much he may think he can separate that from his scientific work, I hope that he is being constantly challenged, so that future generations do not fall into the trap of belief.
As someone who spends much of his professional life around scientists, my experience suggests that scientists are significantly more likely to be non religious and specifically atheist than the general population.
That said I know a number of scientists who are religious (various religions), however in nearly all cases there seems to be compartmentalisation between their professionalism as a scientist and their private beliefs. Certainly there is little evidence that there is a conflict, nor that they are trying to use their profession to support their belief or vice versa.
I can think of a couple of example of more evangelical Christian scientists (in each case it is Christian) - one of whom is often put forward as a creationist and a scientist (his scientific discipline isn't linked to speciation etc), who also had a reputation amongst his colleagues for ... well, making up data. His identity shall not be revealed.
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As someone who spends much of his professional life around scientists, my experience suggests that scientists are significantly more likely to be non religious and specifically atheist than the general population.
That said I know a number of scientists who are religious (various religions), however in nearly all cases there seems to be compartmentalisation between their professionalism as a scientist and their private beliefs. Certainly there is little evidence that there is a conflict, nor that they are trying to use their profession to support their belief or vice versa.
I can think of a couple of example of more evangelical Christian scientists (in each case it is Christian) - one of whom is often put forward as a creationist and a scientist (his scientific discipline isn't linked to speciation etc), who also had a reputation amongst his colleagues for ... well, making up data. His identity shall no be revealed.
Holy unevidenced poisoning of the well, Prof D! By the way just to check, was the person Scottish?
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Holy unevidenced poisoning of the well, Prof D! By the way just to check, was the person Scottish?
Wholly, I think you will find.
Merely sharing my knowledge of this guy and his reputation amongst those who worked with him, including PhD students he supervised. He is now retired and no he isn't Scottish - why exactly is that question relevant.
You can choose to believe me or not, that's up to you to decide.
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Wholly, I think you will find.
Merely sharing my knowledge of this guy and his reputation amongst those who worked with him, including PhD students he supervised. He is now retired and no he isn't Scottish - why exactly is that question relevant.
You can choose to believe me or not, that's up to you to decide.
Holy whoosh, Prof D! And attempt to poison well by an unevidenced statement with a clearly implied generalisation! Hey everyone it's Poison Davy!
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Holy whoosh, Prof D! And attempt to poison well by an unevidenced statement with a clearly implied generalisation! Hey everyone it's Poison Davy!
I am not making claim of generalisation - indeed I was absolutely clear that I was making a specific point about a specific person. In a broader sense I was merely providing my experience as a professional scientist and therefore likely to have interacted with more professional scientists than most on this message board.
By the way, why was it relevant to ask me whether this person was Scottish?
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I am not making claim of generalisation - indeed I was absolutely clear that I was making a specific point about a specific person. In a broader sense I was merely providing my experience as a professional scientist and therefore likely to have interacted with more professional scientists than most on this message board.
By the way, why was it relevant to ask me whether this person was Scottish?
Then why mention that they were Christian? That's that lazy generalisation, Poison Davy.
It's always relevant to ask you about the Scottish.
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Then why mention that they were Christian? That's that lazy generalisation, Poison Davy.
Because the discussion was about scientists who are also religious - so I thought I'd share my experience which, I suspect is rather broader than most on here.
It is only generalisation, lazy or otherwise, if I claimed that all scientists who are also Christians make up data or that Christians who are scientists are more likely to make up data - claims which I clearly did not make.
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It's always relevant to ask you about the Scottish.
Why?
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Holy unevidenced poisoning of the well, Prof D! By the way just to check, was the person Scottish?
and in the eternal words of Donny Osmond
One bad apple don't ruin the whole bunch girl.....
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Why?
You know why, Poison Davy! Stop being a little tease!
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You know why, Poison Davy! Stop being a little tease!
Pray tell.
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Pray tell.
the parishioners cannae take it, Poison Davy!
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the parishioners cannae take it, Poison Davy!
Cat got your tongue NS - still refusing to tell us why it is relevant to ask whether the person I was talking about was Scottish.
Nice line in evasion going on from you I see.
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an example that anomalies occur in nature . The ability to compartmentalise different and opposing thoughts at the same time as in cognitive dissonance and still fully function in your field does not mean you are correct about the opposing one .
I think you might need to think about how individuals end up in science as a career.
Likely is it is because they were good at it and found it interesting - so progressed through school specialising in science, and so on through university and into a career. That they were brought up in a religious family and chose to retain that belief through into adulthood doesn't seem greatly relevant. They ended up as scientists as a professional and retained a religious belief in their private lives. So what. I suspect many religious scientists may not believe the elements of their religion that are directly contradicted by their scientific knowledge. Don't forget that plenty of Christians totally reject the notion of young earth creation, or even creation as a literal happening rather than allegory.
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Cat got your tongue NS - still refusing to tell us why it is relevant to ask whether the person I was talking about was Scottish.
Nice line in evasion going on from you I see.
no evasion, just more whoosh, catdavy
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to be honest ,I only count physicists as proper scientists , anything else is just 'stamp collecting ' ;)
Ooo - that's controversial ;)
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no evasion, just more whoosh, catdavy
Further evasion duly noted.
Please tell us all why it was relevant to ask whether the person I was referring to was Scottish. I think we will all be able to ascertain whether you have answered the question in further posts or whether the evasion continues.
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no evasion, just more whoosh, catdavy
Not for the first time, I think you have turned into Vlad.
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Who is going to blink first?
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Who is going to blink first?
NS can simply answer the question.
Don't forget it was him who raise the issue of this guy's nationality. I have already answered him by confirming that he wasn't Scottish. It would only be polite of him to answer why his original question was relevant.
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Answered it multiple times, but whoosh. Tiny, Tiny, tiny piece of humour..
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Answered it multiple times,
No you haven't - further evasion noted.
but whoosh. Tiny, Tiny, tiny piece of humour..
Evening Vlad.
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No you haven't - further evasion noted.
Evening Vlad.
aw! Poison Davy, like a Falklands penguin, looks up at the point and falls over. Whoosh!
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aw! Poison Davy, like a Falklands penguin, looks up at the point and falls over. Whoosh!
Like Vlad - fails to answer the question and replaces the answer with embarrassing non-sense.
In case people have forgotten - you still have failed to tell us why you felt it relevant to ask whether the scientist I talked about in reply217 was Scottish. We are still waiting for your answer.
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Like Vlad - fails to answer the question and replaces the answer with embarrassing non-sense.
In case people have forgotten - you still have failed to tell us why you felt it relevant to ask whether the scientist I talked about in reply217 was Scottish. We are still waiting for your answer.
Oh look Poison Davy, has multiplied himself into a 'we"...
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Oh look Poison Davy, has multiplied himself into a 'we"...
"we" meaning all the posters on these boards. You do realise that there are more people on here than just you and me, don't you.
Still failing to answer the question - more evasion noted by me, and I suspect others here.
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"we" meaning all the posters on these boards. You do realise that there are more people on here than just you and me, don't you.
Still failing to answer the question - more evasion noted by me, and I suspect others here.
And Poison Davy presumes to speak for every poster on the board. How cute!
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And Poison Davy presumes to speak for every poster on the board. How cute!
Evasion 101.
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And Poison Davy presumes to speak for every poster on the board. How cute!
Well he is speaking for me at least because I haven't got a fucking clue what you are on (about)?!
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Evasion 101.
indeed
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Well he is speaking for me at least because I haven't got a fucking clue what you are on (about)?!
So which question I evading? Which is his position?
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Well he is speaking for me at least because I haven't got a fucking clue what you are on (about)?!
or me and I've been with this thread from the start !!!!!
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Well he is speaking for me at least because I haven't got a fucking clue what you are on (about)?!
Thank you.
Sadly NS has become a bit like a stalker - I make a comment to a completely different poster (e.g. reply217 here which was a reply to SusanDoris) and he piles in with the bit between his teeth. It is all very odd really - somehow NS doesn't live up to his name (but in the wrong direction) whenever he interacts with me.
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So which question I evading?
Why you question whether the person I was talking about was Scottish is relevant. You haven't come close to answering this despite the fact that I answered your question straight away by confirming that this gut was not Scottish.
Which is his position?
On what?
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or me and I've been with this thread from the start !!!!!
Indeed you have been and I fully accept that I have come to this thread late and it was never my intention to derail it.
However, hopefully my personal perspective as a professional scientist on the religious position of the countless fellow scientists it has been my pleasure to know is valuable. Certainly it accords with your posts suggesting that scientists (and physicists in particular) are less likely to be religious.
To note (and will probably send NS into palpitations) both of the evangelical Christian scientists I referred to in reply217 are physicists by training. There is no generalisation implied or intended however their rarity is clear from a professional perspective.
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Yes, I'd also like to know why NS thought he might be Scottish. The only explanation I can come up with is that it was some sort of dig linked to the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.
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Yes, I'd also like to know why NS thought he might be Scottish. The only explanation I can come up with is that it was some sort of dig linked to the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.
Nope, don't think that is it - I suspect it is much more personal.
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And Poison Davy presumes to speak for every poster on the board. How cute!
Nope, and nor did I ever claim to be. But three other posters would like you to explain your comment regarding the Scottish-ness of the person I mentioned, or at the very least would like you to post in a way that makes some kind of sense.
Just answer the question and move on.
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Or move on without an explanation accepting that not everything can be explained. Otherwise this thread might go on for years and years and....
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Or move on without an explanation ...
Reasonable point.
... accepting that not everything can be explained.
Not so reasonable point - are you suggesting that the reason behind NS's suggestion that a scientist (who he doesn't know, and indeed who I never revealed the identity of) is Scottish is somehow something that cannot be explained.
NS is perfectly able to explain the comment - he chooses not to.
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ISQ
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ISQ
Explain please.
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In status quo.
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In status quo.
Sorry - still not clear on your point.
Happy to accept your earlier point that we should move the discussion on. Not so happy to accept your other point that the we should accept that the reason for the en passe (in other words why NS suggested that a scientist I know, and he doesn't, is Scottish) is something that cannot be explained. NS can explain this, but refuses to do so.
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Indeed you have been and I fully accept that I have come to this thread late and it was never my intention to derail it.
However, hopefully my personal perspective as a professional scientist on the religious position of the countless fellow scientists it has been my pleasure to know is valuable. Certainly it accords with your posts suggesting that scientists (and physicists in particular) are less likely to be religious.
To note (and will probably send NS into palpitations) both of the evangelical Christian scientists I referred to in reply217 are physicists by training. There is no generalisation implied or intended however their rarity is clear from a professional perspective.
thank you for taking time to express your experience on the matter
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thank you for taking time to express your experience on the matter
You are welcome - glad it is appreciated.
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That is not what people are saying Sriram. Rather it is that science has found no evidence for spirits etc so their existence is purely a matter of personal belief
The issue is not whether science has found any evidence of God, Spirit, after life etc...or not. We all know it has not.
The issue was whether there is any conflict between science and ones belief in such matters. The 'discussion' further on this thread, if you notice, is also about scientists who happen to be believers.
My point is that there is no conflict between science and a belief in spirit, after life etc. Science and spiritual matters are not mutually exclusive. We can accept both. My posts 176 and 178 say the same thing.
Whether science has or even CAN ever provide evidence of spiritual matters is questionable, simply because its focus is very different. What little it can do in terms of NDE research, efforts to understand Consciousness and Qualia, it is doing.
But if people aren't open minded no research can be meaningful. Even if science does find something indicative of spiritual life, habitually skeptical people can always scoff at it (like the moon landing deniers). Memes are powerful things.
Cheers.
Sriram
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For anyone confused by the Is he Scottish question, it was a small and obviously now doomed piece of humour regarding the Prof's recent comments on a number of threads where I mentioned Scotland of me being parochial. Hence my mention of parishioners. The Poison Davy reference following on my allegation of poisoning the well is to Batman character Poison Ivy. I honestly thought the original comment was obvious to the Prof and that in not getting it, he must be playing dumb.
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For anyone confused by the Is he Scottish question, it was a small and obviously now doomed piece of humour regarding the Prof's recent comments on a number of threads where I mentioned Scotland of me being parochial. Hence my mention of parishioners. The Poison Davy reference following on my allegation of poisoning the well is to Batman character Poison Ivy. I honestly thought the original comment was obvious to the Prof and that in not getting it, he must be playing dumb.
you had to be there for that one !!!!!!!!!!
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from sriram
Whether science has or even CAN ever provide evidence of spiritual matters is questionable, simply because its focus is very different.
what do you mean by this please?
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you had to be there for that one !!!!!!!!!!
Was painfully unfunny even if you were there!
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The issue is not whether science has found any evidence of God, Spirit, after life etc...or not. We all know it has not.
The issue was whether there is any conflict between science and ones belief in such matters. The 'discussion' further on this thread, if you notice, is also about scientists who happen to be believers.
My point is that there is no conflict between science and a belief in spirit, after life etc. Science and spiritual matters are not mutually exclusive. We can accept both. My posts 176 and 178 say the same thing.
Whether science has or even CAN ever provide evidence of spiritual matters is questionable, simply because its focus is very different. What little it can do in terms of NDE research, efforts to understand Consciousness and Qualia, it is doing.
But if people aren't open minded no research can be meaningful. Even if science does find something indicative of spiritual life, habitually skeptical people can always scoff at it (like the moon landing deniers). Memes are powerful things.
Cheers.
Sriram
I agree with that post Sriram, but this is not the impression you normally give when posting. Nice to see a more balanced response.
Not accepting other people's beliefs does not mean that people have closed minds. Pointing out that there is no evidence for these beliefs is not scoffing. Recognising that beliefs are memes too is important.
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I agree with that post Sriram, but this is not the impression you normally give when posting. Nice to see a more balanced response.
Not accepting other people's beliefs does not mean that people have closed minds. Pointing out that there is no evidence for these beliefs is not scoffing. Recognising that beliefs are memes too is important.
Nice to know that you are finally agreeing with me..
even though you had disagreed to the same thought in post 179.
Even to recognise 'evidence' people need to have the right attitude. Evidence is only what we are willing to recognise as evidence for something. People have been experiencing gravity for millennia but till Newton pointed it out no one recognised it.
Science and evidence are not as straight forward as we tend to think.
Cheers.
Sriram
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People have been experiencing gravity for millennia but till Newton pointed it out no one recognised it.
I don't think that is true - before Newton people both experienced and recognised gravity.
What Newton did was to describe and explain it.
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Even to recognise 'evidence' people need to have the right attitude. Evidence is only what we are willing to recognise as evidence for something. People have been experiencing gravity for millennia but till Newton pointed it out no one recognised it.
this is a poor analogy to illustrate your point . Newton didn't point it out ,he described it's properties. This is not possible with the phenomena you refer to because no one can find it to examine . How are you going to catch it in order to describe it for a start ?
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you had to be there for that one !!!!!!!!!!
I think it wore off.
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I don't think that is true - before Newton people both experienced and recognised gravity.
What Newton did was to describe and explain it.
I don't think the common people in any part of the world were aware that some force was pulling them down towards the earth. They would have just taken it for granted.
It was after Newton that people objectively understood gravity as a force. The detailed calculations and laws given by Newton are a different matter.
There are many such natural phenomena including medical and physiological facts that have been taken for granted by people all these centuries....many of which we don't recognise even now.
My point is that what we call evidence becomes meaningful only if and when we recognise it and associate it with some specific phenomenon. Till then we might be seeing and experiencing it everyday but will not connect it to the relevant phenomenon.
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I don't think the common people in any part of the world were aware that some force was pulling them down towards the earth.
Of course they were aware of it. And indeed the need to take account of gravity in all sorts of everyday activities, ranging from building homes and structures that didn't fall down through to knowing where to aim an arrow or spear to hit a distant object (the clue being not straight at it).
They would have just taken it for granted.
So constantly aware of gravity were they that it became second nature, taken for granted if you will. But you don't take something for granted that you aren't aware of.
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sriram
this is becoming tedious and repetitive , until you understand and accept reality as explained , not how you would like it to be , then there is little point in me addressing your posts. have a nice day
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Of course they were aware of it. And indeed the need to take account of gravity in all sorts of everyday activities, ranging from building homes and structures that didn't fall down through to knowing where to aim an arrow or spear to hit a distant object (the clue being not straight at it).
So constantly aware of gravity were they that it became second nature, taken for granted if you will. But you don't take something for granted that you aren't aware of.
No...even animals and birds live according to the laws of gravity. Does not mean they are aware of gravity or that they understand it objectively.
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No...even animals and birds live according to the laws of gravity. Does not mean they are aware of gravity or that they understand it objectively.
So whenever someone dropped a hammer on their toe, they weren't aware of gravity? And BTW we still don't understand gravity objectively .
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Nice to know that you are finally agreeing with me..
even though you had disagreed to the same thought in post 179.
No I didn't. Take another look.
Even to recognise 'evidence' people need to have the right attitude. Evidence is only what we are willing to recognise as evidence for something. People have been experiencing gravity for millennia but till Newton pointed it out no one recognised it.
Science and evidence are not as straight forward as we tend to think.
Cheers.
Sriram
I know.
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I don't think the common people in any part of the world were aware that some force was pulling them down towards the earth. They would have just taken it for granted.
It was after Newton that people objectively understood gravity as a force. The detailed calculations and laws given by Newton are a different matter.
There are many such natural phenomena including medical and physiological facts that have been taken for granted by people all these centuries....many of which we don't recognise even now.
My point is that what we call evidence becomes meaningful only if and when we recognise it and associate it with some specific phenomenon. Till then we might be seeing and experiencing it everyday but will not connect it to the relevant phenomenon.
Apparently we are being pushed down on to the Earth by distorted space and time, warped space if you like, and so I'm informed this description of how we manage to keep our feet on the ground fits in with that famous equation of Einstein's.
No I can't get my head around that one but the maths has been accepted by all quarters in the world of mathematics, so is seems to me to be a whole lot better than a guess, I believe Einstein was just a little in front of Newton.
Regards ippy
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This is a bit of a tangent, but I think perhaps Sriram might find it amenable to his views.
There is a book called 'The Cosmic Hologram' and the author is featured in November on GH. I looked it up and my heart sank as I read what it is about, and even more so when I read on Amazon, 'people who bought this also bought....' followed by a series of titles whose bizarre, mystic-type contents make one realise just how many gullible people there are.
There was also a short interview with the author of 'The Cosmic Hologram', complete with as many everything-is consciousness-type phrases as she could cram in, arm waving and a totally woo way of speaking.
If Sriram cares to watch it, I imagine it might even make him wince!
Edited to add that I have jjust watched part of a Jerry Coyne video to cheer me up!! :D
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It's not so much that science rules them out, more that there is nothing substantive to rule them in.
Consciousness/self in themselves do not imply baggage, but it is the claim that such things are independent of body that introduces unnecessary woo to the terms.
That's just a hugely naive analogy, as I've pointed out many a time. In reality, the two aspects of being are intimately and tightly related, like two sides of the same coin.
I can agree that the car analogy is limited in the sense that the spirit and body are not really as independently separate and different as a person and his car. That analogy was only meant to illustrate how the spirit uses the body and once it leaves the body, the body is like an abandoned car. It rots and gets destroyed.
The spirit and the body are connected and the spirit evolves and develops only through the body.
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The spirit and the body are connected and the spirit evolves and develops only through the body.
why do you think baseless assertions are acceptable to people with critical thinking skills?[/quote]
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I can agree that the car analogy is limited in the sense that the spirit and body are not really as independently separate and different as a person and his car. That analogy was only meant to illustrate how the spirit uses the body and once it leaves the body, the body is like an abandoned car. It rots and gets destroyed.
The spirit and the body are connected and the spirit evolves and develops only through the body.
Sriram, you seem to be so fully informed about this idea you keep referring to, I was thinking and I wondered where you managed to acquire all of this knowledge from?
You do seem to have a lot of detailed knowledge about this "spirit" idea you keep, on and on, telling us about?
Oh yes and how would anyone know that the spirit had evolved and developed through the body and only through the body?
Strikes me you're wandering into Vladland, where anyone would be entitled to say there's just as much evidence for pixieland, unicornland or lepichaunland as there is for your land of the spirits, the only difference between you and Vlad with a statement like this is, you're probably are more likely to understand what I'm saying, even though you may well not like what I'm saying.
Regards ippy.
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Sriram, you seem to be so fully informed about this idea you keep referring to, I was thinking and I wondered where you managed to acquire all of this knowledge from?
You do seem to have a lot of detailed knowledge about this "spirit" idea you keep, on and on, telling us about?
Oh yes and how would anyone know that the spirit had evolved and developed through the body and only through the body?
Strikes me you're wandering into Vladland, where anyone would be entitled to say there's just as much evidence for pixieland, unicornland or lepichaunland as there is for your land of the spirits, the only difference between you and Vlad with a statement like this is, you're probably are more likely to understand what I'm saying, even though you may well not like what I'm saying.
Regards ippy.
Its quite easy if you know how! ;) :D
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Its quite easy if you know how! ;) :D
That's good to hear Sriram, perhaps you will now fill us in with all of the details, I'm sure there are a lot of posters here, other than myself would find this"know how" of yours very interesting, especially when we are able to test your words and see how useful this kind of knowledge can be.
Looking to your enlightening expose of the working methods, should be a first, shouldn't it Sriram? Who knows you could be entering a hall of fame?
Regards ippy
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That's good to hear Sriram, perhaps you will now fill us in with all of the details, I'm sure there are a lot of posters here, other than myself would find this"know how" of yours very interesting, especially when we are able to test your words and see how useful this kind of knowledge can be.
Looking to your enlightening expose of the working methods, should be a first, shouldn't it Sriram? Who knows you could be entering a hall of fame?
Regards ippy
Tut..Tut! You have not been paying attention ippy! I have written about this several times on these boards. Well...never mind! :)
First thing you need to understand is that.... there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion. Hmmm..difficult?! Thought so.
Once you get past that...you need to get off your rocking chair and start doing some Yoga, Pranayama and meditations. Not necessarily in the Himalayas but in you own town will do. Also, some charity work, fasting, preferably move towards vegetarianism.
After some years of that...you can take up study of Samkhya and Yoga philosophies. Maybe also Vedanta, Jainism and Buddhism while you are about it.
Once you are through with all this...you will automatically understand what I am talking about.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Tut..Tut! You have not been paying attention ippy! I have written about this several times on these boards. Well...never mind! :)
First thing you need to understand is that.... there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion. Hmmm..difficult?! Thought so.
Once you get past that...you need to get off your rocking chair and start doing some Yoga, Pranayama and meditations. Not necessarily in the Himalayas but in you own town will do. Also, some charity work, fasting, preferably move towards vegetarianism.
After some years of that...you can take up study of Samkhya and Yoga philosophies. Maybe also Vedanta, Jainism and Buddhism while you are about it.
Once you are through with all this...you will automatically understand what I am talking about.
Cheers.
Sriram
After that you can move on to studying patronization.
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Tut..Tut! You have not been paying attention ippy! I have written about this several times on these boards. Well...never mind! :)
First thing you need to understand is that.... there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion. Hmmm..difficult?! Thought so.
Once you get past that...you need to get off your rocking chair and start doing some Yoga, Pranayama and meditations. Not necessarily in the Himalayas but in you own town will do. Also, some charity work, fasting, preferably move towards vegetarianism.
After some years of that...you can take up study of Samkhya and Yoga philosophies. Maybe also Vedanta, Jainism and Buddhism while you are about it.
Once you are through with all this...you will automatically understand what I am talking about.
Cheers.
Sriram
I noted your declaration/assertion: "there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion", yes and how does this fit in with your 'spirit's' connection with the body declaration/ assertion and do tell me why your words shouldn't read: your 'pixie's' connection with the body declaration/ assertion in the same way.
Kindest of sincere regards ippy
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After that you can move on to studying patronization.
did you know?: it is possible to make slippers out of fog !
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And it's taken 264 posts to end up in this cul- de -sac of absolute total shite
Sriram , you should be ashamed of your self 😡😡😤😤
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I noted your declaration/assertion: "there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion", yes and how does this fit in with your 'spirit's' connection with the body declaration/ assertion and do tell me why your words shouldn't read: your 'pixie's' connection with the body declaration/ assertion in the same way.
Kindest of sincere regards ippy
I told you that. Once you do all the things I said, you'll understand.
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I told you that. Once you do all the things I said, you'll understand.
Like I said I've seen your assertions that you apparently are unable to explain, it couldn't be evasion on your part?
Sincere and cheers regards, ippy
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Like I said I've seen your assertions that you apparently are unable to explain, it couldn't be evasion on your part?
Sincere and cheers regards, ippy
Hi ippy,
No evasion at all. And I am sorry if I sounded somewhat curt in the above posts.
I realize that you are completely insulated from the matters that I am talking about. Most people in the West know only Christianity and Science and choose between the two. Secular Spirituality is like a strange new animal that most people struggle to understand.
Spirituality is a science by itself and is huge requiring lot of background study and practice. If someone asked you a question about the how's and why's of evolution you'll probably tell him to go and study the subject. The same applies to Spirituality.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Hi ippy,
No evasion at all. And I am sorry if I sounded somewhat curt in the above posts.
I realize that you are completely insulated from the matters that I am talking about. Most people in the West know only Christianity and Science and choose between the two. Secular Spirituality is like a strange new animal that most people struggle to understand.
Spirituality is a science by itself and is huge requiring lot of background study and practice. If someone asked you a question about the how's and why's of evolution you'll probably tell him to go and study the subject. The same applies to Spirituality.
Cheers.
Sriram
Secular Spirituality ====== oxymoron
Spirituality is a science ======oxymoron
your post is nothing but CONTRADICTION in the most obvious sense of the word
c'mon Sriram ,you've got to do better than that to stay in the 'race'
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Secular Spirituality ====== oxymoron
Spirituality is a science ======oxymoron
The second is a doubtful case - I don't see any intrinsic bar on empirical investigation of 'spiritual' ideas (once 'spiritual' has been defined, which it frequently isn't) but the first? I can think of several high-powered philosophers* who would disagree with you. Since spirituality hasn't been defined you seem to be jumping the gun by assuming that it's inextricably tied to supernaturalist religion. It isn't, so Sriram is right at least to this extent.
Probably not much further, mind.
* Andre Comte-Sponville, Ray Billington and the late Robert C. Solomon especially.
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The second is a doubtful case - I don't see any intrinsic bar on empirical investigation of 'spiritual' ideas (once 'spiritual' has been defined, which it frequently isn't) but the first? I can think of several high-powered philosophers* who would disagree with you. Since spirituality hasn't been defined you seem to be jumping the gun by assuming that it's inextricably tied to supernaturalist religion. It isn't, so Sriram is right at least to this extent.
Probably not much further, mind.
* Andre Comte-Sponville, Ray Billington and the late Robert C. Solomon especially.
Oh..oh!! Shaker being reasonable and all that!!! How nice! :D
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The second is a doubtful case - I don't see any intrinsic bar on empirical investigation of 'spiritual' ideas (once 'spiritual' has been defined, which it frequently isn't) but the first? I can think of several high-powered philosophers* who would disagree with you. Since spirituality hasn't been defined you seem to be jumping the gun by assuming that it's inextricably tied to supernaturalist religion. It isn't, so Sriram is right at least to this extent.
Probably not much further, mind.
* Andre Comte-Sponville, Ray Billington and the late Robert C. Solomon especially.
actually no, you are wrong . Ive asserted it so it must be true .
high powered philosophers========oxymoron
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Hi ippy,
No evasion at all. And I am sorry if I sounded somewhat curt in the above posts.
I realize that you are completely insulated from the matters that I am talking about. Most people in the West know only Christianity and Science and choose between the two. Secular Spirituality is like a strange new animal that most people struggle to understand.
Spirituality is a science by itself and is huge requiring lot of background study and practice. If someone asked you a question about the how's and why's of evolution you'll probably tell him to go and study the subject. The same applies to Spirituality.
Cheers.
Sriram
Sriram I can only relate your post to something like, I'll send you an empty box, if you spend enough time studying the contents you'll begin to understand and in the end you'll should be able to understand, for me that trumps anything the east has to offer.
Sorry I'm not your sit round in a circle cross legged, chanting omm, type person no thank you very much, I've got much better things to do with my time.
Regards ippy
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Ok...I knew that...didn't I!!! ;)
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Ok...I knew that...didn't I!!! ;)
You're stil not going to back up your words with anything substantial then Sriram? Any one of us is able to assert anything we like, that's easy.
Remember old Duggie's saying: "Isn't it enough to have a beautifull garden without having to think there are faries at the bottom of it"?
Regards ippy
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Hi Sriram
You seem like a really nice chap even though you have strange ideas about reality .
Wherever it is you live , are there many others who believe the same as you ?
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Hi ippy and Walter,
You guys really don't seem to have any idea what I am talking about or how much of a way of life these ideas are in India, China, Japan and increasingly in the US, Germany and other countries. I am truly surprised! Many Britishers (in particular) seem to be completely ignorant about such fundamental philosophies of large parts of the world!
Not agreeing with it is a different matter....I have no problem with that....but not knowing about it is inexcusable because it means people are rather stubbornly insulating themselves to avoid knowing such things.
In fact I have discussed these matters in some detail many times over the years on the BBC boards and on here.... and yet many people here (not just you two) keep expressing the same degree of ignorance and surprise every single time even today. It shows a degree of deliberate avoidance that is typically 'nose in the air' British! >:( No offence guys but that's the way I feel.
That is a pity because Yoga and Vedanta philosophy (don't ask... 'what's that?') are becoming very popular world over and are actually replacing traditional religious beliefs in many parts. These are secular spiritual philosophies that are not incompatible with science and also attempt to explain life itself besides providing people with a basis for self development.
Anyway....thanks for asking. :)
Cheers.
Sriram
PS: If you want to read about such matters and also about the difference between Spirituality and religion, you can click on my internet link above left. There are several articles that could help you to understand these things....provided of course that you want to understand!
If you really want me to explain some basic aspects of these philosophies on these boards....do let me know. I don't mind doing it once more.
Thanks Walter... for your kind words. :) You aren't so bad yourself after all! :D
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I do appreciate a lot of what you outline sririam. Not sure if it had anything to do with photography.
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sriram
thanks for the reply ill respond properly soon
and what do you mean by ''you aren't so bad yourself after all ''? you sound surprised!
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Hi ippy and Walter,
You guys really don't seem to have any idea what I am talking about or how much of a way of life these ideas are in India, China, Japan and increasingly in the US, Germany and other countries. I am truly surprised! Many Britishers (in particular) seem to be completely ignorant about such fundamental philosophies of large parts of the world!
Not agreeing with it is a different matter....I have no problem with that....but not knowing about it is inexcusable because it means people are rather stubbornly insulating themselves to avoid knowing such things.
In fact I have discussed these matters in some detail many times over the years on the BBC boards and on here.... and yet many people here (not just you two) keep expressing the same degree of ignorance and surprise every single time even today. It shows a degree of deliberate avoidance that is typically 'nose in the air' British! >:( No offence guys but that's the way I feel.
That is a pity because Yoga and Vedanta philosophy (don't ask... 'what's that?') are becoming very popular world over and are actually replacing traditional religious beliefs in many parts. These are secular spiritual philosophies that are not incompatible with science and also attempt to explain life itself besides providing people with a basis for self development.
Anyway....thanks for asking. :)
Cheers.
Sriram
PS: If you want to read about such matters and also about the difference between Spirituality and religion, you can click on my internet link above left. There are several articles that could help you to understand these things....provided of course that you want to understand!
If you really want me to explain some basic aspects of these philosophies on these boards....do let me know. I don't mind doing it once more.
Thanks Walter... for your kind words. :) You aren't so bad yourself after all! :D
O K Sriram I've read your pitch and there are similar claims for all sorts of beliefs in all sorts of things including the things you're trying to promote here, I know of these subjects you describe but couldn't see any of the requested evidence that would support these, at present, ideas have any substance to them.
I could easily say, three quarters of the worlds population believe in 'Star Trek', what would be your next question be to that declaration?
Just a footnote, almost any form of exercise is good for almost anyone, give the form of exercise any name you like, why not call one form of exercise 'Yoga'?
Regards ippy
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Just a footnote, almost any form of exercise is good for almost anyone, give the form of exercise any name you like, why not call one form of exercise 'Yoga'?
That's right - I know loads of people who do yoga, I doubt many think of it as a philosophy, let alone a spiritual philosophy. In most cases yoga is exercise, and at most a form of both physical therapy and also a kind of cognitive therapy too (akin to meditation, mindfulness etc). It is perhaps true that many (certainly not all) who do yoga also are interested in environmentalism, perhaps also vegetarian and/or into organic produce. So perhaps there is a wider 'philosophy' if you wish here which is kind of about respect for environment and self. However none of that is 'spiritual', as there is no requirement for a 'spirit' or any 'spiritual element' to think that you want to treat the environment and also your body and mind well.
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That's right - I know loads of people who do yoga, I doubt many think of it as a philosophy, let alone a spiritual philosophy. In most cases yoga is exercise, and at most a form of both physical therapy and also a kind of cognitive therapy too (akin to meditation, mindfulness etc). It is perhaps true that many (certainly not all) who do yoga also are interested in environmentalism, perhaps also vegetarian and/or into organic produce. So perhaps there is a wider 'philosophy' if you wish here which is kind of about respect for environment and self.
Things like yoga, mindfulness and more formal meditation are very widely popular in the West; I should say that the great majority of people see them in therapeutic terms, as self-betterment through exercise (and therefore weight loss), stress reduction and so forth - good things in and of themselves - with little or more likely no thought given to any kind of underlying religious philosophy. Many of us could do with losing a few pounds, and it's a relatively rare person who wouldn't benefit from learning how to relax more deeply and fully. I've meditated for many years and explored tai chi as well so I know whereof I speak.
Every once in a while you see crop up in the news some barmy vicar who won't let the church hall be used for yoga classes, ironically giving far more credence to Hinduism than anybody tying themselves in knots on a mat. The many people who take up yoga are by definition not threatened by it, whereas those like the aforementioned vicar by definition are.
However none of that is 'spiritual', as there is no requirement for a 'spirit' or any 'spiritual element' to think that you want to treat the environment and also your body and mind well.
Slightly quibble with this insofar as this view of spirituality is predicated on and assumes spirit-as-immaterial-and-supernatural-essence, which it need not. I grant you that it's a semantic issue mainly, but Sam Harris especially has defended his continued use of words such as spirituality by saying that there's currently no other word that quite covers all the bases he intends by it and the record of deliberately and consciously contrived neologisms isn't especially encouraging.
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Things like yoga, mindfulness and more formal meditation are very widely popular in the West; I should say that the great majority of people see them in therapeutic terms, as self-betterment through exercise (and therefore weight loss), stress reduction and so forth - good things in and of themselves - with little or more likely no thought given to any kind of underlying religious philosophy. Many of us could do with losing a few pounds, and it's a relatively rare person who wouldn't benefit from learning how to relax more deeply and fully. I've meditated for many years and explored tai chi as well so I know whereof I speak.
Every once in a while you see crop up in the news some barmy vicar who won't let the church hall be used for yoga classes, ironically giving far more credence to Hinduism than anybody tying themselves in knots on a mat. The many people who take up yoga are by definition not threatened by it, whereas those like the aforementioned vicar by definition are. Slightly quibble with this insofar as this view of spirituality is predicated on and assumes spirit-as-immaterial-and-supernatural-essence, which it need not. I grant you that it's a semantic issue mainly, but Sam Harris especially has defended his continued use of words such as spirituality by saying that there's currently no other word that quite covers all the bases he intends by it and the record of deliberately and consciously contrived neologisms isn't especially encouraging.
Love 'the anyone tying themselves up in knots on a mat', ;D ;D ;D
Regards ippy
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SHAKER
very interesting and encouraging with the yoga part , I'm thinking of doing something similar when I recover , loose some kilos and become more supple . When I was younger I studied karate for a few years and became strong supple and as fit as a butchers dog , id love to be like that again.
had to get the dictionary out towards the end though .
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Love 'the anyone tying themselves up in knots on a mat', ;D ;D ;D
Regards ippy
I've tried it and some of those postures are tricky, man :o
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SHAKER
very interesting and encouraging with the yoga part , I'm thinking of doing something similar when I recover , loose some kilos and become more supple . When I was younger I studied karate for a few years and became strong supple and as fit as a butchers dog , id love to be like that again.
You might ease yourself in by trying tai chi - low impact (no impact, really), very graceful, nice and relaxing, no knots :)
had to get the dictionary out towards the end though .
Sorry Wal. Point taken :-[
I really do need to deracinate the circumlocutory sesquipedelianism ;)
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sriram
thanks for the reply ill respond properly soon
and what do you mean by ''you aren't so bad yourself after all ''? you sound surprised!
Ha..Ha. You do realize that you very often come across as an insensitive and grump old fellow!? But sometimes in your unguarded moments the softer aspect seems to surface (rarely though!). That what I meant. :D
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O K Sriram I've read your pitch and there are similar claims for all sorts of beliefs in all sorts of things including the things you're trying to promote here, I know of these subjects you describe but couldn't see any of the requested evidence that would support these, at present, ideas have any substance to them.
I could easily say, three quarters of the worlds population believe in 'Star Trek', what would be your next question be to that declaration?
Just a footnote, almost any form of exercise is good for almost anyone, give the form of exercise any name you like, why not call one form of exercise 'Yoga'?
Regards ippy
Well...ippy, I tried my best but I know its no use. Cheers.
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Ha..Ha. You do realize that you very often come across as an insensitive and grump old fellow!? But sometimes in your unguarded moments the softer aspect seems to surface (rarely though!). That what I meant. :D
ok thanks , id better stop with the unguarded moments then ;)
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You might ease yourself in by trying tai chi - low impact (no impact, really), very graceful, nice and relaxing, no knots :)
Sorry Wal. Point taken :-[
I really do need to deracinate the circumlocutory sesquipedelianism ;)
the last bit? exactly, it's not big and it's not clever ;) ;) ;)
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see that; why is my reply embedded in the blue box ????? I've followed everyone's instructions
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Hi ippy and Walter,
You guys really don't seem to have any idea what I am talking about or how much of a way of life these ideas are in India, China, Japan and increasingly in the US, Germany and other countries. I am truly surprised! Many Britishers (in particular) seem to be completely ignorant about such fundamental philosophies of large parts of the world!
Not agreeing with it is a different matter....I have no problem with that....but not knowing about it is inexcusable because it means people are rather stubbornly insulating themselves to avoid knowing such things.
In fact I have discussed these matters in some detail many times over the years on the BBC boards and on here.... and yet many people here (not just you two) keep expressing the same degree of ignorance and surprise every single time even today. It shows a degree of deliberate avoidance that is typically 'nose in the air' British! >:( No offence guys but that's the way I feel.
That is a pity because Yoga and Vedanta philosophy (don't ask... 'what's that?') are becoming very popular world over and are actually replacing traditional religious beliefs in many parts. These are secular spiritual philosophies that are not incompatible with science and also attempt to explain life itself besides providing people with a basis for self development.
Anyway....thanks for asking. :)
Cheers.
Sriram
PS: If you want to read about such matters and also about the difference between Spirituality and religion, you can click on my internet link above left. There are several articles that could help you to understand these things....provided of course that you want to understand!
If you really want me to explain some basic aspects of these philosophies on these boards....do let me know. I don't mind doing it once more.
Thanks Walter... for your kind words. :) You aren't so bad yourself after all! :D
here is my considered response Sriram
I am aware of what you speak but was referring to your local village , town or whatever and your friends.
Also , even if 7 billion people minus one believe it , it doesn't make it true.. get your head round that my friend . ;D
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If you really want me to explain some basic aspects of these philosophies on these boards....do let me know. I don't mind doing it once more.
If you have the inclination, it might pay you to start a new topic as this one is about photography. It seems from the replies that there is a misconception that yoga is only hatha yoga, whereas there are many 'yogas' e.g. Bhakti yoga, Karma yoga, raja yoga, kriya yoga, or you might like to take the easy route and refer them to tantra yoga and the Kamasutra. ;)
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Well...ippy, I tried my best but I know its no use. Cheers.
Sriram, there's no sign of any attempt to substantiate any part of your claims about your version of spirituality or the earlier reference to reincarnation?
I suppose it couldn't be because there is no way you can substantiate any of these full of magical and mystery beliefs of yours, surly the lack of any rational reason like the lack of supporting evidence for these beliefs would make most rational people at least question these rather lacking ideas before taking them up, believing in them, in the first place?
Right Sriram, the supporting evidence for these ideas of yours? Assertions are unacceptable, let's have it, I'm waiting?
I somehow have a strong feeling I'm going to be waiting for a long time.
Regards and dismissive cheers, ippy.
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If you have the inclination, it might pay you to start a new topic as this one is about photography. It seems from the replies that there is a misconception that yoga is only hatha yoga, whereas there are many 'yogas' e.g. Bhakti yoga, Karma yoga, raja yoga, kriya yoga, or you might like to take the easy route and refer them to tantra yoga and the Kamasutra. ;)
Thanks ekim. Yes..if I do explain all that stuff, it will be on a separate thread.
But I don't think anyone here is seriously inclined to read and understand lofty philosophical material. That is for serious aspirants.
This forum is a meeting place for some idle chit chat...maybe some little 'intellectual' titter tatter...lot of bible bashing..... Generally time pass. And people are fairly decent, fair and civil.
And though there are many forums where I could discuss serious spirituality, I like this forum because it has helped me see diverse view points. I am interested in developing and growing my own personal perspective of the world...and this forum helps.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Sriram, there's no sign of any attempt to substantiate any part of your claims about your version of spirituality or the earlier reference to reincarnation?
I suppose it couldn't be because there is no way you can substantiate any of these full of magical and mystery beliefs of yours, surly the lack of any rational reason like the lack of supporting evidence for these beliefs would make most rational people at least question these rather lacking ideas before taking them up, believing in them, in the first place?
Right the Sriram, the supporting evidence for these ideas of yours? Assertions are unacceptable, let's have it, I'm waiting?
I somehow have a strong feeling I'm going to be waiting for a long time.
Regards and dismissive cheers, ippy.
Hi ippy,
There is nothing to substantiate. Its not something I can take in my hand and show you. These are philosophical matters that depend more on perception than on proof. I can only explain them or tell you what they are....not produce proof or evidence for them.
So...you're right. I have no intention of substantiating any of the Hindu philosophical ideas ...simply because it cannot be done. I have already said that.
Let us leave it at that.
Thanks and cheers.
Sriram
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Thanks ekim. Yes..if I do explain all that stuff, it will be on a separate thread.
But I don't think anyone here is seriously inclined to read and understand lofty philosophical material. That is for serious aspirants.
This forum is a meeting place for some idle chit chat...maybe some little 'intellectual' titter tatter...lot of bible bashing..... Generally time pass. And people are fairly decent, fair and civil.
And though there are many forums where I could discuss serious spirituality, I like this forum because it has helped me see diverse view points. I am interested in developing and growing my own personal perspective of the world...and this forum helps.
Cheers.
Sriram
So you still can't justify your reasons for you thinking there are ordinary spirits or reincarnated spirits in transit caught by digital photography and recorded without tricks of any kind?
There's no need to get shirty/dismissive about it and conveying to one and all those with a differing view to yours are a bunch of idiots, after all us, so called, idiots are the ones asking for good reason to believe in anything before believing, you're the one that can't convey good reason to believe in your assertions.
Regards ippy
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Hi ippy,
There is nothing to substantiate. Its not something I can take in my hand and show you. These are philosophical matters that depend more on perception than on proof. I can only explain them or tell you what they are....not produce proof or evidence for them.
So...you're right. I have no intention of substantiating any of the Hindu philosophical ideas ...simply because it cannot be done. I have already said that.
Let us leave it at that.
Thanks and cheers.
Sriram
There's nothing philosophical about reincarnation or so called spirits on camera, being philosophical is something else why are you attempting to slope this thread that way?
It wouldn't be your inability to give any rational supportable reasons for spirits on camera etc.?
Regards ippy
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Absolutely nothing shirty or dismissive about Sririam's posts (& definitely never 'smug' (one smug person's favourite word that comes up all the time, generally to describe people who show not an ounce of smugness)) . He's always calm and laid back, humorous even.
I don't, at the moment, believe anyone could photograph spirits but if someone else thinks it possible even if they can't substantiate it, fair enough. It's interesting & this is in part a religion forum so odd beliefs will crop up.
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There's nothing philosophical about reincarnation or so called spirits on camera, being philosophical is something else why are you attempting to slope this thread that way?
It wouldn't be your inability to give any rational supportable reasons for spirits on camera etc.?
Regards ippy
Alright....alright ippy. Take it easy. You are getting back to your trolling ways which I thought you had left. Otherwise I would not have engaged in a conversation with you at all.
I have a certain philosophy of life that I believe in. It has nothing to do with photographing spirits or providing proof of their existence. I happened to come across a video that I thought was interesting. I have already mentioned that the video could be fake and that fact does not change my philosophical understanding of life.
So...give it a rest.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Absolutely nothing shirty or dismissive about Sririam's posts (& definitely never 'smug' (one smug person's favourite word that comes up all the time, generally to describe people who show not an ounce of smugness)) . He's always calm and laid back, humorous even.
I don't, at the moment, believe anyone could photograph spirits but if someone else thinks it possible even if they can't substantiate it, fair enough. It's interesting & this is in part a religion forum so odd beliefs will crop up.
Thanks a lot Robbie.
Some people think I need to submit my messages for their approval and certification like a PhD thesis or something. It is the same superior 'we will decide what is right' attitude that is so typical of some atheists and science enthusiasts. I have seen worse on here. :D
(Having a glass of Scotch and about to have my dinner. 8.30 pm here).
Cheers and good night!
Sriram
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Why shouldn't it be vaguely human shaped? It obviously would be I would think. Most ghosts and spirits are said to be human shaped!
Well here is the original video.
The one before the 'editing' was done and then published on a site that produces "entertaining videos"!
https://tinyurl.com/NoSpiritHereSriram
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Well here is the original video.
The one before the 'editing' was done and then published on a site that produces "entertaining videos"!
https://tinyurl.com/NoSpiritHereSriram
Busted, as I think the youngsters say these days :)
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Well here is the original video.
The one before the 'editing' was done and then published on a site that produces "entertaining videos"!
https://tinyurl.com/NoSpiritHereSriram
well researched Seb thank you
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Alright....alright ippy. Take it easy. You are getting back to your trolling ways which I thought you had left. Otherwise I would not have engaged in a conversation with you at all.
I have a certain philosophy of life that I believe in. It has nothing to do with photographing spirits or providing proof of their existence. I happened to come across a video that I thought was interesting. I have already mentioned that the video could be fake and that fact does not change my philosophical understanding of life.
So...give it a rest.
Cheers.
Sriram
Sorry Sriram, how silly of me, I must have imagined your references to ideas about reincarnation spirits etc.
"under some special circumstances, especially if the person who died is fairly young, the soul can be felt or even seen".
"Maybe the videos are fake...but since I believe in souls/spirits and life after death...I have no reason to assume so. Souls are normal"
"Also FYI, black souls mean not very evolved souls (more selfish) while white soul means more developed and loving. :)".
"Maybe the videos are fake...but since I believe in souls/spirits and life after death...I have no reason to assume so. Souls are normal"
"Why shouldn't it be vaguely human shaped? It obviously would be I would think. Most ghosts and spirits are said to be human shaped"
" I am convinced that there is an After-life and that I (and you too) am a spirit residing temporarily inside this body. I have enough evidence...but not of the kind that I can show you or others".
You are very welcome to that lot Sriram, it looks to me the east as you call it is more into the imagination than the west, but there you our lack of imagination has really held us back with all of our technological revolutionary ideas as you must be able to see every day when you turn a light on for instance, or sit at your P C.
Regards ippy
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Sorry Sriram, how silly of me, I must have imagined your references to ideas about reincarnation spirits etc.
"under some special circumstances, especially if the person who died is fairly young, the soul can be felt or even seen".
"Maybe the videos are fake...but since I believe in souls/spirits and life after death...I have no reason to assume so. Souls are normal"
"Also FYI, black souls mean not very evolved souls (more selfish) while white soul means more developed and loving. :)".
"Maybe the videos are fake...but since I believe in souls/spirits and life after death...I have no reason to assume so. Souls are normal"
"Why shouldn't it be vaguely human shaped? It obviously would be I would think. Most ghosts and spirits are said to be human shaped"
" I am convinced that there is an After-life and that I (and you too) am a spirit residing temporarily inside this body. I have enough evidence...but not of the kind that I can show you or others".
You are very welcome to that lot Sriram, it looks to me the east as you call it is more into the imagination than the west, but there you our lack of imagination has really held us back with all of our technological revolutionary ideas as you must be able to see every day when you turn a light on for instance, or sit at your P C.
Regards ippy
? ? ::) What exactly are you up to?
Are you trying to establish that I believe in spirits, afterlife, reincarnation etc.?
You have taken lot of trouble. Good going! Congratulations!
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? ? ::) What exactly are you up to?
Are you trying to establish that I believe in spirits, afterlife, reincarnation etc.?
You have taken lot of trouble. Good going! Congratulations!
:) :)
I don't really think so, Sriram. No-one here doubts your beliefs - or their sincerity.
What many of us were surprised by was your adherence to a particular belief - that the video actually showed the poor dead woman's "spirit leaving her body". That an intelligent man like you could be so credulous - when there are simpler, more rational, more parsimonious explanations using readily available user friendly technology available - was genuinely surprising.
Still, we're all different ...
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I also don't doubt your beliefs Sriram, I simply have no respect what so ever for what you believe and although you appear to be a nice chap in general, I judge you as having a serious flaw in your thinking ability which would have a detrimental effect on us ever becoming friends in real life . Sad really !
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I also don't doubt your beliefs Sriram, I simply have no respect what so ever for what you believe and although you appear to be a nice chap in general, I judge you as having a serious flaw in your thinking ability which would have a detrimental effect on us ever becoming friends in real life . Sad really !
Oh..no problems Walter! :D I am good!
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:) :)
I don't really think so, Sriram. No-one here doubts your beliefs - or their sincerity.
What many of us were surprised by was your adherence to a particular belief - that the video actually showed the poor dead woman's "spirit leaving her body". That an intelligent man like you could be so credulous - when there are simpler, more rational, more parsimonious explanations using readily available user friendly technology available - was genuinely surprising.
Still, we're all different ...
You don't understand HH.
You know I believe in spirits, after life and reincarnation etc. This obviously includes ghosts because they are just spirits. This is not just a belief for me but a whole philosophy of life. I live by this understanding (never mind what anyone else thinks about it).
Now...when I see a photo with a ghost...why would I suddenly start thinking like you or any other atheist and start questioning it? That doesn't make sense ( I am not Floo!!).
I agree that the photos could be fake...I have said so many times (thanks ippy for the quotes)....but unless that is proved why would I suddenly start questioning my own philosophy of life just because of a photograph?
And why do you expect me to?
Cheers.
Sriram
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Oh..no problems Walter! :D I am good!
me too, I wish you well.
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me too, I wish you well.
Thanks Walter. Same to you ...and God bless! :)
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You don't understand HH.
You know I believe in spirits, after life and reincarnation etc. This obviously includes ghosts because they are just spirits. This is not just a belief for me but a whole philosophy of life. I live by this understanding (never mind what anyone else thinks about it).
Now...when I see a photo with a ghost...why would I suddenly start thinking like you or any other atheist and start questioning it? That doesn't make sense ( I am not Floo!!).
Does automatically leaping to the conclusion that something in an obviously faked video from an entertainment website is a ghost make sense?
I agree that the photos could be fake...
We now know there's no 'could be' about it.
I have said so many times (thanks ippy for the quotes)....but unless that is proved why would I suddenly start questioning my own philosophy of life just because of a photograph?
And why do you expect me to?
So rationality, critical thinking, wanting to know what's the case don't interest you.
Wanting to know what's true or fake interests me greatly; why anybody would voluntarily abdicate that responsibility is a constant mystery to me. A mystery, a disappointment and a danger.
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Does automatically leaping to the conclusion that something in an obviously faked video from an entertainment website is a ghost make sense?
We now know there's no 'could be' about it.
So rationality, critical thinking, wanting to know what's the case don't interest you.
Wanting to know what's true or fake interests me greatly; why anybody would voluntarily abdicate that responsibility is a constant mystery to me. A mystery, a disappointment and a danger.
a great last sentence , especially the danger part when you consider how many people share those beliefs , its frightening .
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You don't understand HH.
You know I believe in spirits, after life and reincarnation etc. This obviously includes ghosts because they are just spirits. This is not just a belief for me but a whole philosophy of life. I live by this understanding (never mind what anyone else thinks about it).
Now...when I see a photo with a ghost...why would I suddenly start thinking like you or any other atheist and start questioning it? That doesn't make sense ( I am not Floo!!).
I agree that the photos could be fake...I have said so many times (thanks ippy for the quotes)....but unless that is proved why would I suddenly start questioning my own philosophy of life just because of a photograph?
And why do you expect me to?
Cheers.
Sriram
But Sriram, who said anything about me being an atheist or taking an atheist view? My beliefs or lack of them have nothing to do with this.
In this case, the simplest, least controversial, most acceptable, most comprehensive solution to this problem ... is that it is a hoax.
This has nothing to do with the hemisphere on which I live, my upbringing or anything else. My first reaction was that it was fake. You know, if it looks like a duck ... etc ... And that was based on my experience of the world we live in today.
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But Sriram, who said anything about me being an atheist or taking an atheist view? My beliefs or lack of them have nothing to do with this.
In this case, the simplest, least controversial, most acceptable, most comprehensive solution to this problem ... is that it is a hoax.
This has nothing to do with the hemisphere on which I live, my upbringing or anything else. My first reaction was that it was fake. You know, if it looks like a duck ... etc ... And that was based on my experience of the world we live in today.
Yes...I already said that it could be a fake. What's the problem?
Why should I think that it HAS TO BE a fake....?!
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Yes...I already said that it could be a fake. What's the problem?
What's the problem with your acceptance of the fact that there's no 'could be a fake' about it but 'has been shown to be a fake'?
Why should I think that it HAS TO BE a fake....?!
Because that's the default, the null hypothesis. Your alternative seems to be a pan-credulous version of the negative proof fallacy - everything is automatically true, no matter how barmy, until and unless there's evidence to the contrary (which you probably won't accept anyway or concoct some excuse to irrationalise away).
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This week's episode of 'Click' on the BBC is about fake news, including it's effect in India. It looks like it's going to get more difficult to detect.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09ckd6p/click-click-or-treat
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This week's episode of 'Click' on the BBC is about fake news, including it's effect in India. It looks like it's going to get more difficult to detect.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09ckd6p/click-click-or-treat
well spotted .
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And some of you actually think it is 'dangerous' for us to believe in spirits and after life?!! :D Really?!
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And some of you actually think it is 'dangerous' for us to believe in spirits and after life?!! :D Really?!
I certainly do , it prevents me from visiting parts of the world where I could be arrested for saying something which may offend .
I was once asked by cabin crew to put my copy of God Is Not Great away while flying Etiad Airlines to DUBAI on my way to NZ
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And some of you actually think it is 'dangerous' for us to believe in spirits and after life?!! :D Really?!
Not at all.
However having a penchant for a certain level of gullibility can lead to quite horrendously sad results. It seems to be particularly bad in India.
http://tinyurl.com/SadGulliblePeople
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Not at all.
However having a penchant for a certain level of gullibility can lead to quite horrendously sad results. It seems to be particularly bad in India.
http://tinyurl.com/SadGulliblePeople
Yes as you say Seb T, it seems to be prevalent in India to have a penchant for a certain level of gullibility and it looks to me that Sriram hasn't managed to come through that lot untouched, the separation of Pakistan a religion based this problem wasn't a ball of fun to say the least and then now there are problems with the poor old Rohingya being unceremoniously rejected from Myanmar, all problems that seem to keep repeat themselves every so often in that part of the world, yes Rohingya from Myanmar into Pakistan is the problem at the moment.
These troubles are all rooted in these, I think, should be redundant magical, mystical and superstition based beliefs, that should have been put into the dustbin alongside all of the other ancient false and redundant ideas long ago.
It's a shame otherwise decent people like Sriram seem to think it's O K nothing wrong with perpetuating these beliefs; just look at some of the not so insignificant trouble they cause.
Funny you know Sriram I can remember having to remind you that it's only your ideas I don't get along with and I've reminded you of this several times and now I'm a troll, well if that's your opinion there's little I can do about it but I can say name calling does very little for your case about spirits and things like reincarnation etc.
Talking about spirits and reincarnation you've not written anything here on the forum that would give anyone good reason to take these ideas of yours seriously, well, unless I may have missed something.
I'm more inclined to feel sorry for people that somehow manage to allow themselves to believe in such totally unsupported ideas more than getting annoyed by them.
Kind regards ippy
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Yes as you say Seb T, it seems to be prevalent in India to have a penchant for a certain level of gullibility and it looks to me that Sriram hasn't managed to come through that lot untouched, the separation of Pakistan a religion based this problem wasn't a ball of fun to say the least and then now there are problems with the poor old Rohingya being unceremoniously rejected from Myanmar, all problems that seem to keep repeat themselves every so often in that part of the world, yes Rohingya from Myanmar into Pakistan is the problem at the moment.
These troubles are all rooted in these, I think, should be redundant magical, mystical and superstition based beliefs, that should have been put into the dustbin alongside all of the other ancient false and redundant ideas long ago.
It's a shame otherwise decent people like Sriram seem to think it's O K nothing wrong with perpetuating these beliefs; just look at some of the not so insignificant trouble they cause.
Funny you know Sriram I can remember having to remind you that it's only your ideas I don't get along with and I've reminded you of this several times and now I'm a troll, well if that's your opinion there's little I can do about it but I can say name calling does very little for your case about spirits and things like reincarnation etc.
Talking about spirits and reincarnation you've not written anything here on the forum that would give anyone good reason to take these ideas of yours seriously, well, unless I may have missed something.
I'm more inclined to feel sorry for people that somehow manage to allow themselves to believe in such totally unsupported ideas more than getting annoyed by them.
Kind regards ippy
Hi ippy,
I am sorry if I offended you by calling you a troll....but continued stalking of person with jibes is called trolling.
Be that as it may...religion is a very complex thing. Its not as simple as 'those beliefs have no evidence so just get rid of them'!
Religions have a strong cultural base, an emotional link and a personal identity. It provides people with a greater sense of belonging than even the idea of a nation or even family. It has several traditional and time honored ideas and practices that have made communities and individuals what they are. It has been the anchor and support that people have depended on for millennia through all their troubles. It has been the law provider and the enforcer. It has been the marriage Councillor and the family doctor. You can't brush off religion and its role so easily.
Besides all this, religion has also as its base....Spirituality...which is the purpose and meaning of life itself. Some religions emphasize the cultural aspects more. Some religions emphasize the rules, some the rituals and practices and some emphasize the spiritual aspects.
Anyway, I don't think all this will be appreciated or even understood. So let me not go on. Suffice to say that religions have their place and their role and cannot be dismissed merely because a small minority feel that it should be.
There are problems in India and its neighborhood just as there are problems in North Korea, Syria, America, Spain and elsewhere. It has more to do with poverty and lack of education than with religion.
More about spirituality and religion some other time.
Cheers. :)
Sriram
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Hi ippy,
I am sorry if I offended you by calling you a troll....but continued stalking of person with jibes is called trolling.
Be that as it may...religion is a very complex thing. Its not as simple as 'those beliefs have no evidence so just get rid of them'!
Religions have a strong cultural base, an emotional link and a personal identity. It provides people with a greater sense of belonging than even the idea of a nation or even family. It has several traditional and time honored ideas and practices that have made communities and individuals what they are. It has been the anchor and support that people have depended on for millennia through all their troubles. It has been the law provider and the enforcer. It has been the marriage Councillor and the family doctor. You can't brush off religion and its role so easily.
Besides all this, religion has also as its base....Spirituality...which is the purpose and meaning of life itself. Some religions emphasize the cultural aspects more. Some religions emphasize the rules, some the rituals and practices and some emphasize the spiritual aspects.
Anyway, I don't think all this will be appreciated or even understood. So let me not go on. Suffice to say that religions have their place and their role and cannot be dismissed merely because a small minority feel that it should be.
There are problems in India and its neighborhood just as there are problems in North Korea, Syria, America, Spain and elsewhere. It has more to do with poverty and lack of education than with religion.
More about spirituality and religion some other time.
Cheers. :)
Sriram
I've been called all sorts of things, couldn't give a fig whatever name anyone wishes to call me, I only referred to troll because that kind of thing isn't really needed, you can rename me troll if that's your bag.
This religion will, unfortunately imo, always be with us it needs to be put in its place with the universal introduction of secularism, do religion in your own time and don't keep on telling the rest of us about it, the governments should be blind to religion any religion or belief, no special places for religion or any other kind of belief and no persecution of any religious believers or persecution of believers of any other kind of belief, a level playing field for all.
Unfortunately we all know about these religions in detail, the social and spiritual aspects and loads of the others etc etc, it can't be avoided, ho hum.
I referred to the two troublesome incidents in and around India because that's where you are, no other reason, incidentally Sri Lanka? Wasn't it a bit troublesome in a similar religion based area not that long ago?
My case is quite simple compared to yours I'm not asserting anything, especially without anything that would back up a declaration of that kind; on the other you're asserting all sorts of things/ideas without any evidential backing of any kind, things that there's no good reason to go looking for in the first place.
It's difficult if not impossible to have a discussion, say about the contents of an empty box, which imo parallels with your suggested, more discussion about religion and spirituality, some other time.
Kind regards ippy
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Be that as it may...religion is a very complex thing. Its not as simple as 'those beliefs have no evidence so just get rid of them'!
Religions have a strong cultural base, an emotional link and a personal identity. It provides people with a greater sense of belonging than even the idea of a nation or even family. It has several traditional and time honored ideas and practices that have made communities and individuals what they are. It has been the anchor and support that people have depended on for millennia through all their troubles. It has been the law provider and the enforcer. It has been the marriage Councillor and the family doctor. You can't brush off religion and its role so easily.
Try us.
Anyway, I don't think all this will be appreciated or even understood. So let me not go on.
I'm guessing that you will though.
More about spirituality and religion some other time.
There we go.
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Sriram, what I can't understand is so much interest in something folk are not interested in, it's the same on the Christian Topic.
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Sriram, what I can't understand is so much interest in something folk are not interested in, it's the same on the Christian Topic.
Being interested in something you're not interested in is a contradiction in terms.
You're confusing 'liking' or 'agreeing with' with 'interest in'.
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Sriram, what I can't understand is so much interest in something folk are not interested in, it's the same on the Christian Topic.
I'm interested in what people believe and why. Interested in is different from believing in.
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Shaker and Maeght, oh, ok, I was just intrigued that this thread has run to 14 pages!
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Shaker and Maeght, oh, ok, I was just intrigued that this thread has run to 14 pages!
Because its interesting what people believe and why :-)
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Sriram, what I can't understand is so much interest in something folk are not interested in, it's the same on the Christian Topic.
Yes...their interest is in argument. Not in understanding. That is the problem! :D
Anyway..good way to pass time I suppose. Like an old peoples club. At least they are no longer throwing pitch forks. So...no harm done.
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It's difficult if not impossible to have a discussion, say about the contents of an empty box, which imo parallels with your suggested, more discussion about religion and spirituality, some other time.
Kind regards ippy
You THINK it is an empty box! I and others can see lots of very interesting things inside. You probably are not able to.
I have many times given the analogy of stubborn born blind men who keep denying the presence of Light, even though it s all around them.
If people tell them that all others can see and experience Light, the blind men would accuse them of the Ad Populam fallacy! Its the same here.
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Try us.
I'm guessing that you will though.
There we go.
Don't expect me to get scared of trolls and bullies...Shaker! ::)
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Don't expect me to get scared of trolls and bullies...Shaker! ::)
Sriram
even though you believe in total nonsense , along with millions of others, I congratulate you on your persistence and courage of conviction however misplaced throughout this thread .
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Yes...their interest is in argument. Not in understanding. That is the problem! :D
As in understanding that a video of a spirit is more likely than not, to have been faked?
That understanding?
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Sriram
even though you believe in total nonsense , along with millions of others, I congratulate you on your persistence and courage of conviction however misplaced throughout this thread .
You ain't seen anything...Walter! :D You have come in very recently. I have been on these boards (including BBC) for nearly 17 years.
Good luck!
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You ain't seen anything...Walter! :D You have come in very recently. I have been on these boards (including BBC) for nearly 17 years.
Good luck!
me too, well on and off abut 15 years
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You THINK it is an empty box! I and others can see lots of very interesting things inside. You probably are not able to.
I have many times given the analogy of stubborn born blind men who keep denying the presence of Light, even though it s all around them.
If people tell them that all others can see and experience Light, the blind men would accuse them of the Ad Populam fallacy! Its the same here.
We all misread things from time to time Sriram, whish I could say I didn't miread things from time to time and be telling the truth.
Have another go and try to answer what I did actually say in the post you seem to have been trying to answer?
Regards ippy
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We all misread things from time to time Sriram, whish I could say I didn't miread things from time to time and be telling the truth.
Have another go and try to answer what I did actually say in the post you seem to have been trying to answer?
Regards ippy
You claim that my box is empty while I am saying that it is not empty, just that you are unable to see what is inside due to your own inability. That's it!
Only if a person can see and experience Light can we discuss further about colors and other details.
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You claim that my box is empty while I am saying that it is not empty, just that you are unable to see what is inside due to your own inability. That's it!
Only if a person can see and experience Light can we discuss further about colors and other details.
Rearrange the following into a well know story:
"new clothes", "The Emperor's"
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You claim that my box is empty while I am saying that it is not empty, just that you are unable to see what is inside due to your own inability. That's it!
Only if a person can see and experience Light can we discuss further about colors and other details.
but whether the box is empty or not is not a matter of belief , it either is or it isn't. Any amount of wishing is irrelevant .
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You claim that my box is empty while I am saying that it is not empty, just that you are unable to see what is inside due to your own inability. That's it!
Only if a person can see and experience Light can we discuss further about colors and other details.
Just a clue, not a very subtle one Sriram, what would the contents of an empty box consist of?
On thinking about your post to 336 me, it's not just a case of doing being more fervent and then doing the written equivalent of raising the tenor of your voice, you would also need to find something of substance that might back up your assertions and good luck with that, you've not managed to find anything of substance in that area to date, I can't see it happening either.
Just shouting louder, or the written equivalent of that, doesn't necessarily make you or anyone else right Sriram
Regards ippy
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And some of you actually think it is 'dangerous' for us to believe in spirits and after life?!! :D Really?!
Well, yes, to some extent.
I once worked for a Laos based NGO supporting victims of disability prejudice.
And what was the underlying reason for such prejudice ? Our field workers reported the same story over and over again - it was a belief in karma, disabled and disfigured individuals were targetted for hate because of the widespread belief that they were being punished for, and deserved being punished for, their immorality in a previous life.
Irrational beliefs always come with costs attached. Irrational beliefs always cause harm.
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Well, yes, to some extent.
I once worked for a Laos based NGO supporting victims of disability prejudice.
And what was the underlying reason for such prejudice ? Our field workers reported the same story over and over again - it was a belief in karma, disabled and disfigured individuals were targetted for hate because of the widespread belief that they were being punished for, and deserved being punished for, their immorality in a previous life.
Irrational beliefs always come with costs attached. Irrational beliefs always cause harm.
good post torridon