Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Walter on October 29, 2017, 02:07:00 AM
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Unable to sleep at the moment and with unusual thoughts coming into my head I began to wonder about the 11 plus exam
I can't for the life of me remember ever taking the exam and wondered if it was offered to all kids of my age back in 1968. I had a quick look on line but couldn't find a definitive answer so thought I'd ask you good people on the board for some help in resolving my query
I've just 'taken' a test from 1968 as posted by the Telegraph , it looks daunting and I think many modern school kids would struggle with it .
Hope you can help , thanks
Walter .
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As far as I remember all kids took this exam.
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I've just 'taken' a test from 1968 as posted by the Telegraph , it looks daunting and I think many modern school kids would struggle with it .
Walter .
It was intended to be daunting, Walter, we didn't want riff-raff blocking up our grammar schools, did we?
The 11-Plus was a mechanistic three part (in my case) examination which had no purpose other than identifying the top performing (say) 10% of the cohort. It was not criterion-based, it did not look for specific behaviour, it was norm-based - the top 10% performers, whatever their specific marks, were selected. Because girls of the same age are generally more mature physically and intellectually than boys there were frequent occasions when higher performing girls were denied grammar school places in favour of lower performing boys.
Because of its mechanistic nature, it was an examination that children could be trained ... oops ... prepared for. I well recall the numerous ... err ... preparation sessions I suffered underwent. A whole day was set aside for the test itself and the rest of the school had a holiday. I think you would have remembered it.
As an aside, and I stand to be corrected, the PISA assessment, which apparently allows countries to compare their secondary education systems has much in common with the old 11-Plus: it is mechanistic, trainable and rewards performance rather than creativity.
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Because girls of the same age are generally more mature physically and intellectually than boys there were frequent occasions when higher performing girls were denied grammar school places in favour of lower performing boys.
It was not the kids fault if the local authorities did not build enough girls grammar schools. There were always co-eds. And there were Technical Highs, if you want to beat the drum about females being denied places then the logical step would be to bemoan that girls were not welcomed in the latter.
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It was intended to be daunting, Walter, we didn't want riff-raff blocking up our grammar schools, did we?
The 11-Plus was a mechanistic three part (in my case) examination which had no purpose other than identifying the top performing (say) 10% of the cohort. It was not criterion-based, it did not look for specific behaviour, it was norm-based - the top 10% performers, whatever their specific marks, were selected. Because girls of the same age are generally more mature physically and intellectually than boys there were frequent occasions when higher performing girls were denied grammar school places in favour of lower performing boys.
Because of its mechanistic nature, it was an examination that children could be trained ... oops ... prepared for. I well recall the numerous ... err ... preparation sessions I suffered underwent. A whole day was set aside for the test itself and the rest of the school had a holiday. I think you would have remembered it.
As an aside, and I stand to be corrected, the PISA assessment, which apparently allows countries to compare their secondary education systems has much in common with the old 11-Plus: it is mechanistic, trainable and rewards performance rather than creativity.
you seem to have a very clear recollection of the exam and a rather sarcastic view of preparing for it .
And you also make the remark ''I think you would have remembered it '' as though I'm lying or something.
No I don't remember it , that's why I'm asking about it .
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It was not the kids fault if the local authorities did not build enough girls grammar schools. There were always co-eds. And there were Technical Highs, if you want to beat the drum about females being denied places then the logical step would be to bemoan that girls were not welcomed in the latter.
I am not beating any drum. I am merely describing the situation that existed in the 1950s and 1960s.
Are you beating a drum?
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I cannot speak for the fifties because I was not there. But I can remember the sixties, and nobody grumbled that the system was unfair to girls, as I remember the grumble was that the system was unfair to late developers.
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HH
why are you attempting to derail this right from the start? It was not about 'girls'
Have you got some problem with the 11 plus of 1968?
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Walter (and Humph)
You said that you had no recollection of taking the 11-Plus.
I have, I was there, I was merely describing what it was like. That's all. The past is another country - they do things differently there,
Additional comment
And no, I was not trying to derail this. I was trying to keep it alive. Having spent most of my adult life in education (tertiary) it is a subject which, in general, interests me.
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My memory of discussions on the usefulness of the 11 plus chime with HH's in that one of the issues was that the inequality in places for female vs male was a significant issue.
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Walter (and Humph)
You said that you had no recollection of taking the 11-Plus.
I have, I was there, I was merely describing what it was like. That's all. The past is another country - they do things differently there,
Additional comment
And no, I was not trying to derail this. I was trying to keep it alive. Having spent most of my adult life in education (tertiary) it is a subject which, in general, interests me.
I took the exam too, in 1971, I can even remember taking it. My recollection of the past seems to be different to yours.
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My memory of discussions on the usefulness of the 11 plus chime with HH's in that one of the issues was that the inequality in places for female vs male was a significant issue.
That is not my memory, as I mentioned above. As I recall the big argument about discrimination against females was not the eleven plus, but the GCE O Level.
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We all took the 11 plus in my home island, as I believe they still do today.
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it is still taken in many areas and those that don't do a separate exam for grammer schooL entry equivalent to 11 plus), where there are still grammer schools.
What's big deal? Brighter kids should suffer at expense of those with less academic intelligence because of an ideal? We have to work with what is. Most parents do what they think is right for our kids at the time - hopefully with their agreemenr,
We all do the best for our kids regardless of ideology.
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The exam was officially abolished across the UK in 1965 with the introduction of comprehensive education. It was an attempt to even out the chances of pupils across the country. However, Northern Ireland chose to retain the system. In England, the comprehensive model was adopted but some grammar schools elected to become private schools, and some remained as grammars. Indeed, some local authorities in England kept grammar schools and the 11-plus, usually in middle-class areas, citing parental pressure.
http://tinyurl.com/11plusherald
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Walter (and Humph)
You said that you had no recollection of taking the 11-Plus.
I have, I was there, I was merely describing what it was like. That's all. The past is another country - they do things differently there,
Additional comment
And no, I was not trying to derail this. I was trying to keep it alive. Having spent most of my adult life in education (tertiary) it is a subject which, in general, interests me.
the point I was making was although it was a very significant time in my life I simply don't remember it or any of the stress or extra tuition you mention.
What I do remember was my parents receiving a letter saying which school I would be attending and an invitation to visit the school for a tour and meet the form tutor who would be looking after me when term started in the autumn and that's it.
My close and extended family then rallied round kitting me out with a uniforem PE kit satchel and all the rest of it .
Come September I was at grammar school. and the rest as they say.............
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Also it is quite worrying that I DON'T REMEMBER . Or did I automatically go through without doing the test ?
Did that happen to some kids? That's what I'm trying to find out really .
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The exam was officially abolished across the UK in 1965 with the introduction of comprehensive education. It was an attempt to even out the chances of pupils across the country. However, Northern Ireland chose to retain the system. In England, the comprehensive model was adopted but some grammar schools elected to become private schools, and some remained as grammars. Indeed, some local authorities in England kept grammar schools and the 11-plus, usually in middle-class areas, citing parental pressure.
http://tinyurl.com/11plusherald
That is factually incorrect. In England the last sitting of the eleven plus was in the Spring of 1973, the comprehensive model was introduced in 1974.
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That is factually incorrect. In England the last sitting of the eleven plus was in the Spring of 1973, the comprehensive model was introduced in 1974.
yes, that is what I found ont' web in the early hours of this morning .And halfway through my last term of 6th form the school changed to a comprehensive with many teachers leaving and a great sadness fell on the school.
Then a whole load of riff-raff ;) infiltrated the place and ruined it . I was glad to leave by then !
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Also it is quite worrying that I DON'T REMEMBER . Or did I automatically go through without doing the test ?
Did that happen to some kids? That's what I'm trying to find out really .
Maybe you just sailed through it without noticing? Your family may or may not have paid serious attention to it.
I remember taking it in '64 - it was not really mentioned in school - but my mum was really concerned that I get through to my chosen grammar school.
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Maybe you just sailed through it without noticing? Your family may or may not have paid serious attention to it.
I remember taking it in '64 - it was not really mentioned in school - but my mum was really concerned that I get through to my chosen grammar school.
As I remember the exam was spoken of only rarely, and in hushed tones, when we actually took the exam we were not told what it was, although we all knew.
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As I remember the exam was spoken of only rarely, and in hushed tones, when we actually took the exam we were not told what it was, although we all knew.
maybe that's the answer and I was too naïve to know .
anybody else got anything that could help me ?
cheers
Walter
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As I remember the exam was spoken of only rarely, and in hushed tones, when we actually took the exam we were not told what it was, although we all knew.
It wasn't abolished everywhere, I took it as did my sister and our children who are now aged between 28-22.
In areas where there was no 11+ schools set their own equivalent exam. State schools.
I must admit I never thought anything of it, it was just something you did. It wasn't scary. How else can you sort out who goes to an academic school and who doesn't. Not every area has wonderful comps, The grammer schools near me are very good and most parents wanted their kids to go to one so the kids had to pass an exam.
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It wasn't abolished everywhere, I took it as did my sister and our children who are now aged between 28-22.
In areas where there was no 11+ schools set their own equivalent exam. State schools.
I must admit I never thought anything of it, it was just something you did. It wasn't scary. How else can you sort out who goes to an academic school and who doesn't. Not every area has wonderful comps, The grammer schools near me are very good and most parents wanted their kids to go to one so the kids had to pass an exam.
In our neck of the woods, Grammars, Technical Highs, and Secondary Moderns were replaced by "Selective, and "Non Selective". I think that the furthest afield that I could have gone was Alleyn's.
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HH
why are you attempting to derail this right from the start? It was not about 'girls'
Have you got some problem with the 11 plus of 1968?
I've been out all day and so have only just come back to this.
If it's any help in this discussion, I took the 11-Plus twice - once at the age of 10 and again a year later. This was standard practice in Kesteven.
I went to the local boys grammar school in September 1953.
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I've been out all day and so have only just come back to this.
If it's any help in this discussion, I took the 11-Plus twice - once at the age of 10 and again a year later. This was standard practice in Kesteven.
I went to the local boys grammar school in September 1953.
jesus , didn't even know humans were around in 1953 ;)
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I think I must have taken my 11= 1971. I remember it well, enjoyed it actually.
If Walter doesn't remember his it's possible he had some other sort of assessment.
We still have 11+ and good grammar schools near where I live. They are state schools, there are also some independent schools who take people for nothing. I went to a state grammar and we didn't feel especially privileged, it was just what you did. Never thought twice about it. My kids did the same. One or two of the local comps are quite good but no doubt the grammars are better and nowadays parents do their best to encourage their children to go there which I think is fair enough unless the kid themselves objects. The ones I know seem really happy.
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As an aside, and I stand to be corrected, the PISA assessment, which apparently allows countries to compare their secondary education systems has much in common with the old 11-Plus: it is mechanistic, trainable and rewards performance rather than creativity.
The PISA assessment doesn't reward anything. It's designed to find out what the educational standards in the country are. The only effect is if the worse performing countries are shamed into improving their educational systems.
rewards performance rather than creativity.
I read that as saying it rewards getting the right answers rather than getting imaginative but wrong answers.
As for the 11+, whilst I think it is a good idea to assess children's abilities frequently, the 11+ was a terrible thing, in my opinion. If you passed, you got into grammar school, if you failed you went to a secondary modern and never the twain shall meet. Your whole future life is determined by one day when you are eleven.
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Also it is quite worrying that I DON'T REMEMBER . Or did I automatically go through without doing the test ?
Did that happen to some kids? That's what I'm trying to find out really .
Walter, I have no recollection at all of taking my 11-plus, but I have a vivid memory of hearing the result. It's very strange, I can even remember where I was sitting in the classroom. I think it was because I didn't pass but was called 'a borderliner' and had to wait a few days to see if there were any vacant places in the local girls' high school. The end result was there were no available places left and I was heart-broken because my best friend had passed the exam meaning we would be attending different schools. But all ended well, I loved the CofE secondary school that I went to, a smallish establishment with just 400 pupils and some interesting teachers.
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Walter, I have no recollection at all of taking my 11-plus, but I have a vivid memory of hearing the result. It's very strange, I can even remember where I was sitting in the classroom. I think it was because I didn't pass but was called 'a borderliner' and had to wait a few days to see if there were any vacant places in the local girls' high school. The end result was there were no available places left and I was heart-broken because my best friend had passed the exam meaning we would be attending different schools. But all ended well, I loved the CofE secondary school that I went to, a smallish establishment with just 400 pupils and some interesting teachers.
I do love a happy ending ;)
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jesus , didn't even know humans were around in 1953 ;)
Well, I was 17!!!
It was only the second year of the 11+ when I took it.
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Well, I was 17!!!
It was only the second year of the 11+ when I took it.
age is but a number, I wish I could dance like you ;)
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The PISA assessment doesn't reward anything. It's designed to find out what the educational standards in the country are. The only effect is if the worse performing countries are shamed into improving their educational systems.
Perhaps the word "reward" could have been reconsidered. PISA scores appear to favour those educational systems which are mechanistic rather than organic. PISA methodology and results have been seriously criticised by several educationalists.
I read that as saying it rewards getting the right answers rather than getting imaginative but wrong answers.
Then read something else. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the work of Liam Hudson, in particular his distinction between convergent and divergent styles of thinking.
As for the 11+, whilst I think it is a good idea to assess children's abilities frequently, the 11+ was a terrible thing, in my opinion. If you passed, you got into grammar school, if you failed you went to a secondary modern and never the twain shall meet. Your whole future life is determined by one day when you are eleven.
I do agree with your general point about the 11+. But how would you suggest the frequent assessment of children's abilities should take place? End of year examinations? Which terminology do you prefer: education or schooling?
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PISA methodology and results have been seriously criticised by several educationalists.
From the countries that don't do well?
I do agree with your general point about the 11+. But how would you suggest the frequent assessment of children's abilities should take place? End of year examinations? Which terminology do you prefer: education or schooling?
I will defer to the teachers and education experts on the subject of how to assess children. All I would say is that you do have to assess children a) to find out if the education system is failing them as individuals and b) to find out which educational methods work best in general.