Religion and Ethics Forum

Religion and Ethics Discussion => Philosophy, in all its guises. => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on October 31, 2017, 12:12:36 PM

Title: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on October 31, 2017, 12:12:36 PM
Think this is pretty much undeniable.


https://aeon.co/essays/why-the-western-philosophical-canon-is-xenophobic-and-racist
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Steve H on October 31, 2017, 02:15:04 PM
Bollocks.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on October 31, 2017, 02:21:25 PM
Bollocks.

Thank you for your 'well thought out' response. I take it given you disagree with the article, you agree with Kant's classifications on race? You may not, but the 'pithiness' of your response makes it difficult to draw out any form of  nuance.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on October 31, 2017, 03:14:27 PM
Thank you for your 'well thought out' response. I take it given you disagree with the article, you agree with Kant's classifications on race? You may not, but the 'pithiness' of your response makes it difficult to draw out any form of  nuance.
ornithologists know a lot about ducks , but ducks know nothing at all about ornithologists.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on October 31, 2017, 03:31:06 PM
ornithologists know a lot about ducks , but ducks know nothing at all about ornithologists.
You really shouldn't do yourself down like this. A little bit of positive thinking and I am sure you can be a swan.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: jeremyp on October 31, 2017, 04:35:54 PM
Think this is pretty much undeniable.


https://aeon.co/essays/why-the-western-philosophical-canon-is-xenophobic-and-racist

Is it still the case that philosophy departments ignore everything except European philosophy?

The idea that, in the 18th century, everybody thought philosophy originated in Africa or Asia or both, is quite intriguing.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on October 31, 2017, 04:54:04 PM
Is it still the case that philosophy departments ignore everything except European philosophy?

The idea that, in the 18th century, everybody thought philosophy originated in Africa or Asia or both, is quite intriguing.
For the first, I think the essay makes a reasonable case. I am sure there are courses with a wider span and it's 15 years since I took a course but my experience is yes they are hugely Western based. You might discuss the influence of eastern philosophy on Schopenhauer but that's generally about it and it is looked on as an aside. Confucius might make an appearance under some courses on legal and moral philosophy but I did a philosophy of art course at the OU and there was no mention of eastern ideas of art.


I think the second is a bit overly grand as a claim. The writer is making a specific case against Kant which I sort of agree with but I also think is overly bold.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on October 31, 2017, 05:15:10 PM
You really shouldn't do yourself down like this. A little bit of positive thinking and I am sure you can be a swan.
excellent   ;D

I have no idea what I'm talking about !

anyway Fuck It has just started on the telly.   sorry, Flog It   ;)
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Steve H on October 31, 2017, 05:28:21 PM
Thank you for your 'well thought out' response. I take it given you disagree with the article, you agree with Kant's classifications on race? You may not, but the 'pithiness' of your response makes it difficult to draw out any form of  nuance.
That was the only response I felt a bloody silly statement like that deserved.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Steve H on October 31, 2017, 05:31:19 PM
Would we accuse Western medicine of being racist because it ignored such Eastern ideas as Chakras, acupuncture, etc.? I think not. I'm sure that when Eastern philosophy has anything worthwhile to say, it is listened to in the West.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on October 31, 2017, 05:33:19 PM
Would we accuse Western medicine of being racist because it ignored such Eastern ideas as Chakras, acupuncture, etc.? I think not. I'm sure that when Eastern philosophy has anything worthwhile to say, it is listened to in the West.
This reads like someone saying that when women say something worthwhile they will be given the vote. I note the asdumotuin that the West is the judge if what is worthwhile.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on October 31, 2017, 05:35:40 PM
That was the only response I felt a bloody silly statement like that deserved.
Is it possible that you might deign to actually point out what you think is 'bloody silly'! Else it makes dialogue somewhat difficult, my small cashew nut.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Steve H on October 31, 2017, 05:36:30 PM
Thus reads like someone saying that when women say something worthwhile they will be given the vote. I note the asdumotuin that the West is the judge if what is worthwhile.
You have found an "asdumotuin" where none was intended. The only judge of any philosophy, Western or Eastern, is reason.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on October 31, 2017, 05:39:53 PM
You have found an "asdumotuin" where none was intended. The only judge of any philosophy, Western or Eastern, is reason.
No, the asdumotion was there in your post when you wrote it would 'listened to in the West'. But anyhoo please illustrate why an area where Trump is the de facto leader of the 'Western' world has reason , and Confucius should be ignored.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on October 31, 2017, 06:39:17 PM
This reads like someone saying that when women say something worthwhile they will be given the vote. I note the asdumotuin that the West is the judge if what is worthwhile.
chuffin ' 'ell , have women been given the vote? they sneaked that one past me . Have they got something to say or what? I mean apart from stuff about handbags and hair doos.

and of course the west is the judge on what is worthwhile , otherwise it would be them ruling the planet wouldn't it , silly!
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on October 31, 2017, 06:40:35 PM
NS

see, I told you id love this section  ;D
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Sriram on November 01, 2017, 05:00:00 AM



The very fact that Westerners position themselves as the people who decide such matters shows the inherent sense of superiority (racist or otherwise). 

But there are valid reasons for this, I don't deny.   The West has for several centuries been in the forefront of science, technology, military, wealth, communication and so on. They have therefore indulged in significant self publicity.  The others have been watching mutely from the sidelines. Fair enough, I suppose. Can't be helped.

Things are however changing. As other countries and other cultures come to the forefront in the coming decades, their ideas and philosophies will also become prominent. What might have seemed preposterous to the West some time ago will now begin to seem reasonable.

Its all about getting used to ideas. The mind has to expand sufficiently to accommodate new perspectives and new ways of looking at the world.

If you keep running the same old program again and again you will get the same results. If you run a different program you might get a different result. 
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Steve H on November 01, 2017, 09:26:21 AM
Western philosophy gave us modern science and technology (a mixed blessing, I grant you),  and modern democracy. Eastern philosophy didn't.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 01, 2017, 10:16:13 AM


Quote
Things are however changing. As other countries and other cultures come to the forefront in the coming decades, their ideas and philosophies will also become prominent. What might have seemed preposterous to the West some time ago will now begin to seem reasonable.
No they won't, they will become lost to the annals of time otherwise they will not be taken seriously in a grownup world.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Sriram on November 02, 2017, 04:47:08 AM
Western philosophy gave us modern science and technology (a mixed blessing, I grant you),  and modern democracy. Eastern philosophy didn't.


Yes...so what?  It is not as if whatever we are having today is Utopian in any way.   Everything evolves and changes and so also will the present ideas and perspectives.  Coming generations will not think the way we do and their priorities and understanding of life could be very different from what many people today have. 

Civilization, culture and philosophy will not move in a linear fashion into some far away hyper scientific and hyper democratic world.  Life is cyclical.  Most of the old ideas will get renewed and will come back tailored to the times.

Eastern cultures have not produced Science and modern democracy....but they have produced a  holistic view of the world that integrates life experiences with the external world. Unlike Western philosophies that dissect and differentiate...Eastern philosophies always integrate and unite. I don't think many people in the West understand the importance of this way of thinking and about how crucial it is. 

A major shift in philosophical thinking towards integration is imperative and I would say, imminent.  The world cannot possibly continue with the present fragmented philosophy in which Spirituality and religion are fundamentally and in perpetual conflict with Science and technology.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Gordon on November 02, 2017, 07:08:25 AM
A major shift in philosophical thinking towards integration is imperative and I would say, imminent.  The world cannot possibly continue with the present fragmented philosophy in which Spirituality and religion are fundamentally and in perpetual conflict with Science and technology.

I suspect, Sriram, that it may be more the case that spirituality/religion will become progressively irrelevant and that any apparent conflict with science and technology will only concern those who subscribe to spirituality/religion. In those areas where religion is still influential it will take longer, but in areas like here in Scotland it is already the case that religious views aren't authoritative across society at large.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Rhiannon on November 02, 2017, 08:41:00 AM
Would we accuse Western medicine of being racist because it ignored such Eastern ideas as Chakras, acupuncture, etc.? I think not. I'm sure that when Eastern philosophy has anything worthwhile to say, it is listened to in the West.

So the Tao te Ching is a load of bollocks then?

I mean, clearly you've read it. You wouldn't be making such a sweeping statement on something you've no knowledge of.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Rhiannon on November 02, 2017, 08:47:06 AM
I suspect, Sriram, that it may be more the case that spirituality/religion will become progressively irrelevant and that any apparent conflict with science and technology will only concern those who subscribe to spirituality/religion. In those areas where religion is still influential it will take longer, but in areas like here in Scotland it is already the case that religious views aren't authoritative across society at large.

And yet we have Eastern spiritual ideas on mindfulness being embraced by the scientific community as being beneficial for mental and physical health for a good many people. In fact one idea that comes from mindfulness - that we aren't our thoughts but the observer of them - kicks cartesianism firmly into the long grass.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Steve H on November 02, 2017, 09:56:04 AM
So the Tao te Ching is a load of bollocks then?

I mean, clearly you've read it. You wouldn't be making such a sweeping statement on something you've no knowledge of.
Yes, I have read it, in translation at least. What of it?
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Rhiannon on November 02, 2017, 09:56:54 AM
Yes, I have read it, in translation at least. What of it?

Do you think it has nothing to teach anyone? You said nothing worthwhile has come from Eastern philosophy.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Shaker on November 02, 2017, 10:04:57 AM
I'm sure that when Eastern philosophy has anything worthwhile to say, it is listened to in the West.
What makes you think it isn't already? 
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 02, 2017, 11:18:54 AM
So the Tao te Ching is a load of bollocks then?

I mean, clearly you've read it. You wouldn't be making such a sweeping statement on something you've no knowledge of.
woman who cooks ham and peas in same pot ----dirty bitch !
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Steve H on November 02, 2017, 05:33:23 PM
Do you think it has nothing to teach anyone? You said nothing worthwhile has come from Eastern philosophy.
No, I didn't.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Sriram on November 03, 2017, 06:02:17 AM
I suspect, Sriram, that it may be more the case that spirituality/religion will become progressively irrelevant and that any apparent conflict with science and technology will only concern those who subscribe to spirituality/religion. In those areas where religion is still influential it will take longer, but in areas like here in Scotland it is already the case that religious views aren't authoritative across society at large.

This is another example of fragmented thinking.   Why is it always Spirituality OR Science?!  Why should one give way to the other? This is typical Western thinking....

This is because  people in the West  have this divisive and dissecting way of thinking. What I have called the Zoom-In mind set. In the East people have a Zoom -Out mindset which is naturally inclusive and integrative. It is a mindset issue.....the way the brain is probably wired.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/zoom-in-zoom-out/

I concede that the Zoom-In mindset has resulted in most of Science and Technology. But it is not meant for Philosophy.   

With more and more people from the East becoming prominent and influencing world philosophies, an integrative approach is more likely to be the future. 


Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Gordon on November 03, 2017, 07:58:35 AM
This is another example of fragmented thinking.   Why is it always Spirituality OR Science?!  Why should one give way to the other? This is typical Western thinking....

This is because  people in the West  have this divisive and dissecting way of thinking. What I have called the Zoom-In mind set. In the East people have a Zoom -Out mindset which is naturally inclusive and integrative. It is a mindset issue.....the way the brain is probably wired.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/zoom-in-zoom-out/

I concede that the Zoom-In mindset has resulted in most of Science and Technology. But it is not meant for Philosophy.   

With more and more people from the East becoming prominent and influencing world philosophies, an integrative approach is more likely to be the future.

It isn't 'spirituality or science' for me though: I don't see that 'spirituality' is anything other than just what some people think, and as far as I can see 'spirituality' is far too woolly to represent a distinct philosophical perspective - especially where it comes across as being woo dressed up as profundity.

If it is abstract thinking on a macro rather than micro level then that is quite possible without adding a 'spiritual' label.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 03, 2017, 10:12:10 AM
This is another example of fragmented thinking.   Why is it always Spirituality OR Science?!  Why should one give way to the other? This is typical Western thinking....

This is because  people in the West  have this divisive and dissecting way of thinking. What I have called the Zoom-In mind set. In the East people have a Zoom -Out mindset which is naturally inclusive and integrative. It is a mindset issue.....the way the brain is probably wired.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/zoom-in-zoom-out/

I concede that the Zoom-In mindset has resulted in most of Science and Technology. But it is not meant for Philosophy.   

With more and more people from the East becoming prominent and influencing world philosophies, an integrative approach is more likely to be the future.
HI Sriram

I'm interested to know what your thoughts are regarding Deepak Chopra , the public speaker and advocate of alternative medicine
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: ekim on November 03, 2017, 10:36:06 AM
It isn't 'spirituality or science' for me though: I don't see that 'spirituality' is anything other than just what some people think, and as far as I can see 'spirituality' is far too woolly to represent a distinct philosophical perspective - especially where it comes across as being woo dressed up as profundity.

Ancient Chinese saying:  Do not despise the woolly for who is to say it will not be fashioned into a cardigan which will give warmth to all who wear it. ;)
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Sriram on November 04, 2017, 06:15:19 AM
HI Sriram

I'm interested to know what your thoughts are regarding Deepak Chopra , the public speaker and advocate of alternative medicine


He lives somewhere in California, is a qualified endocrinologist and was a friend of the Beatles. He also does some research on Ayurveda. I don't know much more than that about him.

What you might consider as 'Alternative Medicine' is not 'alternative' for 1.3 billion people in India. It is the main system of medicine for a large section of the  population.   Most Indians, even the urban educated and rich elite, use Ayurveda for at least some of their ailments. 

In fact, the use of Ayurveda which had gone down dramatically during the 1960' to 1990's is now growing exponentially.  There are now more young qualified practitioners than every before. The Govt. is also directly working on research, documentation, certification and so on.

Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 04, 2017, 12:18:54 PM

He lives somewhere in California, is a qualified endocrinologist and was a friend of the Beatles. He also does some research on Ayurveda. I don't know much more than that about him.

What you might consider as 'Alternative Medicine' is not 'alternative' for 1.3 billion people in India. It is the main system of medicine for a large section of the  population.   Most Indians, even the urban educated and rich elite, use Ayurveda for at least some of their ailments. 

In fact, the use of Ayurveda which had gone down dramatically during the 1960' to 1990's is now growing exponentially.  There are now more young qualified practitioners than every before. The Govt. is also directly working on research, documentation, certification and so on.
okay thanks for that.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Rhiannon on November 04, 2017, 03:27:41 PM
Unlike most people who dismiss Chopra's stuff as utter shit I've actually read some of it.

It's utter shit.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on November 04, 2017, 03:34:44 PM
Unlike most people who dismiss Chopra's stuff as utter shit I've actually read some of it.

It's utter shit.


http://www.wisdomofchopra.com
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 04, 2017, 07:24:26 PM

http://www.wisdomofchopra.com
love that link
It reminds me of the meanings of the clues in Ted Rogers 3 2 1
Family quiz show , classic !
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 04, 2017, 07:26:11 PM
Unlike most people who dismiss Chopra's stuff as utter shit I've actually read some of it.

It's utter shit.
fantastic , hahahah ! 😂👍
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 05, 2017, 01:42:27 PM
This is another example of fragmented thinking.   Why is it always Spirituality OR Science?!  Why should one give way to the other? This is typical Western thinking....

This is because  people in the West  have this divisive and dissecting way of thinking. What I have called the Zoom-In mind set. In the East people have a Zoom -Out mindset which is naturally inclusive and integrative. It is a mindset issue.....the way the brain is probably wired.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/zoom-in-zoom-out/

I concede that the Zoom-In mindset has resulted in most of Science and Technology. But it is not meant for Philosophy.   

With more and more people from the East becoming prominent and influencing world philosophies, an integrative approach is more likely to be the future.
Hi Sriram, have a look at this

https://youtu.be/OTVWMY8EZCA
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Sriram on November 06, 2017, 05:20:59 AM
Hi Sriram, have a look at this

https://youtu.be/OTVWMY8EZCA

Hi Walter...

Sigh...! You are lumping in Spirituality with 'Magnet Man' and such things...?!!!

Long way to go...Walter!  ;)
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 06, 2017, 08:31:34 AM
Hi Walter...

Sigh...! You are lumping in Spirituality with 'Magnet Man' and such things...?!!!

Long way to go...Walter!  ;)
ahh! you crack me up . :D :D :D
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on November 06, 2017, 06:25:46 PM
love that link
It reminds me of the meanings of the clues in Ted Rogers 3 2 1
Family quiz show , classic !
Brilliant show, Ted Rogers explaining the clues that make Heidegger look like a nursery rhyme. It may have been a new form of philosophy.


'My first is in cartilaginous
But the artichoke cannot hold
King David is a dancing
And so the story unfolds'
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Rhiannon on November 06, 2017, 06:44:32 PM
Brilliant show, Ted Rogers explaining the clues that make Heidegger look like a nursery rhyme. It may have been a new form of philosophy.


'My first is in cartilaginous
But the artichoke cannot hold
King David is a dancing
And so the story unfolds'

Challenge has this on late at night. I thought it’d be worth a look until I remembered it had ‘celebrity’ acts - in this case a racist comedian, some out of time dancers and (I think) Tony Christie.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Nearly Sane on November 06, 2017, 06:48:20 PM
Challenge has this on late at night. I thought it’d be worth a look until I remembered it had ‘celebrity’ acts - in this case a racist comedian, some out of time dancers and (I think) Tony Christie.
To watch it you need the right drugs.  It is quite possibly the weirdest show ever made. I think when Plato talks about the shadows on the cave wall, this is what was the 'form'
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Steve H on November 06, 2017, 10:03:26 PM
Brilliant show, Ted Rogers explaining the clues that make Heidegger look like a nursery rhyme. It may have been a new form of philosophy.


'My first is in cartilaginous
But the artichoke cannot hold
King David is a dancing
And so the story unfolds'
I believe 321 was originally French. If so, much is explained.
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Walter on November 07, 2017, 09:12:59 AM
To watch it you need the right drugs.  It is quite possibly the weirdest show ever made. I think when Plato talks about the shadows on the cave wall, this is what was the 'form'
I think i was one of those who could only wonder at the shadows until one day while working for a news paper i met the bloke who made the various incarnations of Dusty Bin and was given a tour of his workshop including a demonstration of a working Dusty.

It was only then I saw the light. The shadows disappeared and all was well with the world
Title: Re: 'Western philosophy is racist'
Post by: Dicky Underpants on November 07, 2017, 05:05:31 PM
Unlike most people who dismiss Chopra's stuff as utter shit I've actually read some of it.

It's utter shit.

 ;D ;D ;D