Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on November 05, 2017, 07:54:15 PM
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Tragic news, small poor town, effectively decimated.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41880511
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Oh good grief. I'd seen the breaking news but had no idea that there were so many casualties.
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Was 'chatting' about other things with a friend in Houston when I saw the news, he hadn't seen it at that stage and he used to do some work in Luling which is near by. Apparently it's a tiny place.
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We have friends in Dallas. Texas is suffering this year.
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Wilson County is next to Bexhar (Bear) County, where I lived for several years. It is a quiet rural place, churches there are either RC, or Southern Baptist. Not the sort of place where anything much happens.
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:(
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Over half the congregation have been killed.
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Will this be the straw that breaks the gun lobby's back?
Probably not - I've thought that too many times before.
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No, it’ll just mean churches posting armed security.
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With the amount of churches in the US the nation will be bankrupted in a fortnight.
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No, armed security will just mean members of the congregation with guns.
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Trump tweeted: "I am monitoring the situation from Japan."
Somebody has replied: "You mean from a golf cart in Japan."
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No, armed security will just mean members of the congregation with guns.
Oh, so they can recreate that scene from Kingsmen. Can't see any problems with that at all.
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According to Trump, the individual had mental health problems and it isn't a 'guns situation'.
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This is a terrible thing and I realise we need to talk about it but please don't speculate now
Let's wait for information first . I feel it's the right thing to do
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NS isn’t speculating, he’s repeating Trump.
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Trump is quoted (BBC website) as saying the shooter was '"a very deranged individual" and denied that guns were to blame for the shooting' followed by 'We have a lot of mental health problems in our country, but this isn't a guns situation'.
Hard to understand how 26 people can be shot to death and it not be a 'guns situation'.
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Another terrible gun crime. :o When will the US realise that their universal gun ownership doesn't make them any safer?
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If accounts are accurate a neighbour with a rifle prevented further deaths; this will give the gun lobby all it needs to justify a citizen’s right to use guns to defend themselves while ignoring the obvious.
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NS isn’t speculating, he’s repeating Trump.
I wasn't addressing NS
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Apparantly, the murderer was a dishonourable dischrge from the USAF...and therefore barred from holding weapons.
So, in a law-abiding supposedly civilised country, where did he get his illegal firearms - aselection of which were found in his vehicle with his corpse?
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Apparantly, the murderer was a dishonourable dischrge from the USAF...and therefore barred from holding weapons.
So, in a law-abiding supposedly civilised country, where did he get his illegal firearms - aselection of which were found in his vehicle with his corpse?
Apparently you can buy them at Walmart, along with your groceries. :o My daughter and family were on a tour of the US and Canada a couple of years ago, they were shocked when they realised they could buy a gun as well as their food supplies at that store.
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Apparently you can buy them at Walmart, along with your groceries. :o My daughter and family were on a tour of the US and Canada a couple of years ago, they were shocked when they realised they could buy a gun as well as their food supplies at that store.
Yes, but you need a license to buy anything like that, it's not as if you can put a shotgun in your shopping trolley & pay for it at the ordinary checkout.
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Yes, but you need a license to buy anything like that, it's not as if you can put a shotgun in your shopping trolley & pay for it at the ordinary checkout.
When our eldest daughter was doing part of her teaching practise at an elementary school in the US during the early 90s, she was shocked that one of the school rules was that the kids didn't bring their guns to school!
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When our eldest daughter was doing part of her teaching practise at an elementary school in the US during the early 90s, she was shocked that one of the school rules was that the kids didn't bring their guns to school!
Where in the USA did your daughter live?
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When our eldest daughter was doing part of her teaching practise at an elementary school in the US during the early 90s, she was shocked that one of the school rules was that the kids didn't bring their guns to school!
what?, did she think they should've been allowed to.?
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What I found surprising is that the Church shooting is hardly making the news. In all the channels on TV in India the shooting is only streaming at the bottom and not the main news at all. Even CNN today morning was showing some program about European food rather than the shooting. The Truck attack in NY also was likewise.
Are people bored or is it the new normal or what? Oh hum...another day another shooting!! ::)
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What I found surprising is that the Church shooting is hardly making the news.
Certainly not the case here.
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Certainly not the case here.
Top item on the BBC web-site home page.
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Where in the USA did your daughter live?
She was there for 6 weeks up in New York State near the Canadian border.
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She was there for 6 weeks up in New York State near the Canadian border.
I can only presume that it was a rural area, perhaps teenagers had guns to shoot the likes of squirrels, and pigeons?
I was the other end, in southern Texas. Gun rules were quite strict, that did not stop the criminal elements from getting their hands on them of course. The main worry was not organised crime, but street punks using them to hold up convenience stores.
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I can only presume that it was a rural area, perhaps teenagers had guns to shoot the likes of squirrels, and pigeons?
I was the other end, in southern Texas. Gun rules were quite strict, that did not stop the criminal elements from getting their hands on them of course. The main worry was not organised crime, but street punks using them to hold up convenience stores.
My daughter trained as a primary school teacher, so they weren't teenagers but 12 and under! :o
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One of the most successful ways propaganda can work is on the little and often basis, how many gun worshipping films have we seen coming out of America, yes, well of course that's very rare, it works in the same way that various manufacturers pay large sums for product placements.
I'm convinced that's a part of this complex problem Americans have with their gun culture, it'll be years, if ever, before they get at the very least somewhere near reducing this gun problem of theirs.
ippy
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I bet if the gunman had been non white Trump would have been screaming TERRORISM, mental health issues would not have been mentioned.
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I bet if the gunman had been non white Trump would have been screaming TERRORISM, mental health issues would not have been mentioned.
You need to follow the rules
http://newsthump.com/2017/11/06/texas-shooter-a-white-man-so-now-is-not-the-time-for-new-laws-or-debate-confirms-trump/
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You need to follow the rules
http://newsthump.com/2017/11/06/texas-shooter-a-white-man-so-now-is-not-the-time-for-new-laws-or-debate-confirms-trump/
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! >:(
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Will the USA do something about gun control as a result? Will it fuck.
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Will the USA do something about gun control as a result? Will it fuck.
Of course it won't, Trump will soon insist babies are armed! :o
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Apparently in Texas it is legal to sell on firearms without making checks. He wouldn't even have needed fake ID.
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Apparently in Texas it is legal to sell on firearms without making checks. He wouldn't even have needed fake ID.
CRAZY!!! >:(
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Any motive reported yet?
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No
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I bet if the gunman had been non white Trump would have been screaming TERRORISM, mental health issues would not have been mentioned.
Yes, 'lone wolf with mental issues' is code for white man, definitely not a terrorist. They are brown.
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Yes, 'lone wolf with mental issues' is code for white man, definitely not a terrorist. They are brown.
please let him be a convert
please let him be a convert
please let him be a convert
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He isn't. Or wasn't.
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There is a campaign to call such killings terrorism, sponsored by the NRA. Sounds reasonable.
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please let him be a convert
please let him be a convert
please let him be a convert
From what to what?
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He's a 'convert' from Christianity to atheism.
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From what to what?
insert whatever you like based on your own prejudices
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insert whatever you like based on your own prejudices
Apparently he is a convert to Atheism.
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There is a campaign to call such killings terrorism, sponsored by the NRA. Sounds reasonable.
If we're supposed to start calling them terrorism now ... what were they before?
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Apparently he is a convert to Atheism.
Better known as deconversion, presumably. You can convert from one belief system to another, but since atheism isn't one all you can say is that he was a Christian and then wasn't.
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There is a campaign to call such killings terrorism, sponsored by the NRA. Sounds reasonable.
I think we do need to be a little cautious about labelled any mass killings as terrorism - I always thought that terrorist acts were perpetrated deliberately to further some kind of ideological aim - for example political or religious.
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There is a campaign to call such killings terrorism, sponsored by the NRA. Sounds reasonable.
I don't see random attacks like this linked to nothing as being any sort of terrorism. Indeed some of the 'terrorist' attacks seem more random eejits that want to claim a cause than actual terrorist attacks e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Brighton_siege
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Better known as deconversion, presumably. You can convert from one belief system to another, but since atheism isn't one all you can say is that he was a Christian and then wasn't.
That smacks of you trying to avoid a conclusion in order to protect a future argument.
Or you can say he converted from a belief system to atheism.
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Breaking news is he'd argued with his mother in law, who had links to the church.
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That smacks of you trying to avoid a conclusion in order to protect a future argument.
Or you can say he converted from a belief system to atheism.
I thought that that was what I did say.
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I think the expression is that he lost his faith, not that he found a new one.
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I'm wondering why he took it out on his in laws in church.
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I'm wondering why he took it out on his in laws in church.
Why do these gun nuts take it out on children in schools? I expect it's much the same reason?
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I'm wondering why he took it out on his in laws in church.
You really don’t need to, it’s pretty obvious, although it’s not the cheap point score that you seem to be after.
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You really don’t need to, it’s pretty obvious, although it’s not the cheap point score that you seem to be after.
I don't know what you mean. Why are the reasons obvious?
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I don't know what you mean. Why are the reasons obvious?
You aren’t that stupid.
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You aren’t that stupid.
Saying that something is obvious and then not being able to say what it is means either it isn't or what it is cannot be revealed to protect the safety of something.
If it is something hidden in this mans derangement then President Trump is correct.
If this man is a terrorist what or who was he a terrorist for? Had he been radicalised?
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Saying that something is obvious and then not being able to say what it is means either it isn't or what it is cannot be revealed to protect the safety of something.
If it is something hidden in this mans derangement then President Trump is correct.
If this man is a terrorist what or who was he a terrorist for? Had he been radicalised?
Ffs.
1. Churches have a regular schedule.
2. He had reason to believe his in laws would keep that schedule.
3. Churches have an open door policy (unlike trying to gain entry to a house)
4. Churches don’t usually have security (unlike a shopping mall)
5. Churches like this tend to be small - the victims are sitting ducks
6. The victims will be off guard - sitting ducks
7. By causing multiple casualties the shooter causes maximum pain to his ex, and any in laws and extended family that survive.
According to research only 6% of violence in sacred buildings in the US is linked to religion. They are usually robberies or domestics.
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Ffs.
1. Churches have a regular schedule.
2. He had reason to believe his in laws would keep that schedule.
3. Churches have an open door policy (unlike trying to gain entry to a house)
4. Churches don’t usually have security (unlike a shopping mall)
5. Churches like this tend to be small - the victims are sitting ducks
6. The victims will be off guard - sitting ducks
7. By causing multiple casualties the shooter causes maximum pain to his ex, and any in laws and extended family that survive.
According to research only 6% of violence in sacred buildings in the US is linked to religion. They are usually robberies or domestics.
Parsimony would dictate I would have thought favour a street assassination.
There is a good chance this person wanted other casualties of a particular type.
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Parsimony would dictate I would have thought favour a street assassination.
There is a good chance this person wanted other casualties of a particular type.
Of a particular type?
Or just as many as possible?
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Parsimony would dictate I would have thought favour a street assassination.
There is a good chance this person wanted other casualties of a particular type.
What is it about your nasty little mind that wants to make this atheist v Christian? We can see the way your thoughts are going in your equally nasty thread about fictional characters.
Why do you think mass shooters choose enclosed spaces - churches, diners, schools, nightclubs? Even Vegas was a closed site, the hotels firming the walls. Horrible expression but it’s like shooting fish in a barrel.
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Apparently in Texas it is legal to sell on firearms without making checks. He wouldn't even have needed fake ID.
In my experience that is not the case, but in many private sales people don't bother to make the checks, they run the risk of prosecution if the same comes to the attention of the authorities.
It's a bit like the minor felony of public intoxication, the laws are so restrictive that many just chance it.
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http://lawcenter.giffords.org/private-sales-in-texas/
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So if you buy from a licensed seller you have to have a background check but yiu don't if buying privately? Makes no sense to me.
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If we're supposed to start calling them terrorism now ... what were they before?
Being in Texas, surely it's turrzum.
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Moderator several posts involving a derail involving 'New Atheism' have been removed.
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There is a campaign to call such killings terrorism, sponsored by the NRA. Sounds reasonable.
Well I don't think all mass shootings are terrorism. I don't think this was. Normally I associate "terrorism" with violence aimed at achieving some sort of ideological aim.
Anyway, call it terrorism or not, I don't care. I'll call it the murder of twenty six people. The important thing is to find ways of stopping it from happening again
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So, if the members of that church congregation weren't terrified, what were they?
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Dear Americans,
3And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.
The millennial kingdom is NOW.
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Dear Americans,
3And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.
The millennial kingdom is NOW.
What does that mean?
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It could be a complex way of telling God-bothering Americans who think that guns are the most wonderful product of human imagination that there is biblical imperative for their destruction and transformation onto more productive utensils.
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It could be a complex way of telling God-bothering Americans who think that guns are the most wonderful product of human imagination that there is biblical imperative for their destruction and transformation onto more productive utensils.
Far too complex for them to understand. There is probably some verse in that crazy book of Revelation, which the religious gun owners interpret as, 'THOU SHALT HAVE THE RIGHT TO OWN GUNS'! ::)
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What does that mean?
It's Isaiah 2:2-4, and from reading Calvin's online commentary, apparently it doesn't mean "thou shalt not own weapons" but that we should try to live in peace with each other. Personally I don't feel it's good to own a weapon that is meant for killing people. I sold my air rifle to buy an electric guitar when I was younger. I was quite shocked when I saw a hand gun on the table at my mate's flat. But there is a view that countries like the USA and Switzerland have not been invaded because it's citizens are armed. I did cadet training at school, which included marksmanship which I enjoyed. I also think it's good to learn self defense techniques.
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Ah, Isaiah.
So it's not even Christian. It's from the Old Goatherder's Book of Myths, Legends and Fairy Tales.
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But there is a view that countries like the USA and Switzerland have not been invaded because it's citizens are armed.
What a bizarre view.
There are plenty of other countries that have remained uninvaded or unconquered for as long or longer that don't have citizens armed to the teeth. I think there are 4 ways to discourage invasion none of which have anything to do with civilian gun ownership.
1. Have a policy of remaining politically neutral in any conflict.
2. Have nothing worth invading for, i.e. not strategically important.
3. Have a huge military to act as a deterrent and/or repel attempted invasion.
4. Be very difficult to invade due to geography/climate - e.g. surrounded by ocean or covered in mountains/likely to be freezing cold or boiling hot.
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It's Isaiah 2:2-4, and from reading Calvin's online commentary, apparently it doesn't mean "thou shalt not own weapons" but that we should try to live in peace with each other. Personally I don't feel it's good to own a weapon that is meant for killing people. I sold my air rifle to buy an electric guitar when I was younger. I was quite shocked when I saw a hand gun on the table at my mate's flat. But there is a view that countries like the USA and Switzerland have not been invaded because it's citizens are armed. I did cadet training at school, which included marksmanship which I enjoyed. I also think it's good to learn self defense techniques.
Britain hasn't been invaded since the Norman conquest! ::)
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Britain hasn't been invaded since the Norman conquest! ::)
Successfully
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Successfully
you sure about that ? not by force but by stealth!
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you sure about that ? not by force but by stealth!
Meaning?
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But there is a view that countries like the USA and Switzerland have not been invaded because it's citizens are armed.
Villa invaded the USA.
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Personally I don't feel it's good to own a weapon that is meant for killing people. I sold my air rifle to buy an electric guitar when I was younger.
https://tinyurl.com/GuitarsAreDangerousToo
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you sure about that ? not by force but by stealth!
This who are familiar with Pembrokeshire, and particularly Fishguard will probably already be aware of this little bit of history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fishguard
Described as the last invasion of Britain - involving an unsuccessful military invasion by a force of approximately 1500 French troops in 1797.
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So, if the members of that church congregation weren't terrified, what were they?
That means spiders and rollercoasters are terrorists.
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But there is a view that countries like the USA and Switzerland have not been invaded because it's citizens are armed.
The USA has bee invaded. The British did it in 1812 and burned down the White House.