Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on November 10, 2017, 04:30:08 PM
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Just eh?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/roy-moore-ally-compares-underage-231500999.html
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Or meh.
Christians have traditionally thought of Mary as a young girl but not a child. No-one knows how old she was. Ridiculous thing to say.
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Just eh?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/roy-moore-ally-compares-underage-231500999.html
Is that guy for real? :o
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And surely technically Joe wasn't a biological parent as the loon implies.
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There is that but I think he's referring to the idea of a 14 year old being married to an older man being OK and comparing that to the marriage of Joseph and Mary - whose precise ages we don't know.
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There is that but I think he's referring to the idea of a 14 year old being married to an older man being OK and comparing that to the marriage of Joseph and Mary - whose precise ages we don't know.
which is why I think it an odd approach
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Very.
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There is that but I think he's referring to the idea of a 14 year old being married to an older man being OK and comparing that to the marriage of Joseph and Mary - whose precise ages we don't know.
For it to be a valid comparison he must think Mary was a similar age otherwise it is meaningless.
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Yes, he must think it - or else talking off the top of his head without thinking.
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Even if it were true that Mary got married aged 14 (which it might be), so what? The idea that women can't get married until they are 16 is a relatively recent innovation.
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You're right there and in some parts of the world, including states in the USA, they are allowed to marry at 14 even now.
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I read recently that in some US states there is no lower age limit for marriage.
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I think I read that too Rhiannon, in an article about child brides in some states of the USA. The age limit varies throughout America, in some places you have to be eighteen, in others sixteen and - others any age!
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This is not just a numpty;
This is a Trump worshipping numpty.
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I read recently that in some US states there is no lower age limit for marriage.
If true that is shocking! :o
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If true that is shocking! :o
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States
That is just terrible, you might expect that in some Islamic countries but not in the US! :o
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https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/child-marriage-200000-us-data-staggering/
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If true that is shocking! :o
See the visit of Jerry Lee Lewis with his wife who was not only underage (here) but also. if I remember rightly, his blood cousin.
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See the visit of Jerry Lee Lewis with his wife who was not only underage (here) but also. if I remember rightly, his blood cousin.
Who is Jerry Lee Lewis?
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http://tinyurl.com/yagfuq42
http://tinyurl.com/y9j258uu
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http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/head-desk-gif-1.gif
ROTFLMAO!
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See the visit of Jerry Lee Lewis with his wife who was not only underage (here) but also. if I remember rightly, his blood cousin.
I saw a biopic of Jerry Lee Lewis on BBC4 a while ago. Yes he did marry a thirteen year old cousin - not a first cousin. It wasn't unusual in the region where he lived. They did eventually divorce but she always spoke well of him, wild man that he was. When he came here he brought her with him, the press found out her age & he was no longer welcome.
The country star, Loretta Lynn (Coal Miner's daughter), married at 14, had three kids by 18, and I think she remained married to the same man for life.
Floo probably doesn't watch BBC4 but as well as great music, it's quite an education!
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I saw a biopic of Jerry Lee Lewis on BBC4 a while ago. Yes he did marry a thirteen year old cousin - not a first cousin. It wasn't unusual in the region where he lived. They did eventually divorce ...
Apparently he wanted to concentrate on his musical career; she wanted to concentrate on her colouring in.
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I saw a biopic of Jerry Lee Lewis on BBC4 a while ago. Yes he did marry a thirteen year old cousin - not a first cousin. It wasn't unusual in the region where he lived. They did eventually divorce but she always spoke well of him, wild man that he was. When he came here he brought her with him, the press found out her age & he was no longer welcome.
The country star, Loretta Lynn (Coal Miner's daughter), married at 14, had three kids by 18, and I think she remained married to the same man for life.
Floo probably doesn't watch BBC4 but as well as great music, it's quite an education!
I dislike music.
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I dislike music.
Yes we know.
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Do you dislike all musicians though (floo)? Some musicians have had very interesting lives and are part of a particular point in history which they influenced. In any case you couldn't have spent your life without knowing about them. Even your parents would have been interested in some at various points, Jerry Lee being a case in point. Even now he has influence
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Do you dislike all musicians though (floo)? Some musicians have had very interesting lives and are part of a particular point in history which they influenced. In any case you couldn't have spent your life without knowing about them. Even your parents would have been interested in some at various points, Jerry Lee being a case in point. Even now he has influence
As I have no interest in music I have no interest in musicians either, apart from my own three daughters and eldest grandson, who are very good musicians.
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As I have no interest in music I have no interest in musicians either, apart from my own three daughters and eldest grandson, who are very good musicians.
How do you know?
Does someone tell you that they are?
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How do you know?
Does someone tell you that they are?
I see where you're going ;)
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How do you know?
Does someone tell you that they are?
I know.
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I see where you're going ;)
::)
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I know.
We know you know. The question was how. Presumably, when your family play their instruments they sound just as unbearable to you as all the other music. How do you, a self confessed disliker of music, judge your family's abilities in that sphere?
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Someone else up at crack of dawn or before in your case. I just woke up because there was a big bang outside my house, don't know what it was, everything looks OK outside but it was loud and we are laid back from the road which isn't busy. Anyway...
I imagine music is like any other subject, people will tell you if your child/grandchild is good at something that doesn't interest you much and school reports will do same.
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What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?! That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's.
It is a different matter that society today has fixed 18 years as the majority age for most things, including marriage. But nothing immoral about marrying a girl or boy who is post puberty. 18 is just an arbitrary age with no biological basis.
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What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?! That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's.
It is a different matter that society today has fixed 18 years as the majority age for most things, including marriage. But nothing immoral about marrying a girl or boy who is post puberty. 18 is just an arbitrary age with no biological basis.
Where to start...
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What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?! That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's.
It is a different matter that society today has fixed 18 years as the majority age for most things, including marriage. But nothing immoral about marrying a girl or boy who is post puberty. 18 is just an arbitrary age with no biological basis.
So it is OK for a 10/11year old to marry is it? Some kids attain puberty at that young age, I did, and so did my daughters and grandsons.
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INDEED ?!!!?
ARRE Sriram Bhai ?!!?!? Kya matlab hai tumhara ?????
We're talking about KIDS for ef's sake. We're not on about certain types of societies where kids might be at risk from many things, not least other humans ?!!?!?
May I ask what YOU think is the age of puberty ???
Nick
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Just because you CAN DOESN'T mean you SHOULD !?!?!?!?!?!?
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I am sure a lot of paedophiles would agree with Sriram's post! >:( :o
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What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?! That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's.
It is a different matter that society today has fixed 18 years as the majority age for most things, including marriage. But nothing immoral about marrying a girl or boy who is post puberty. 18 is just an arbitrary age with no biological basis.
You are focusing on sexual maturity not emotional or mental maturity Sriram.
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You are focusing on sexual maturity not emotional or mental maturity Sriram.
Exactly! A girl as young as ten can become a mother, but has she the maturity to become a proper parent? Of course not, as she is only a child herself.
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What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?! That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's.
It is a different matter that society today has fixed 18 years as the majority age for most things, including marriage. But nothing immoral about marrying a girl or boy who is post puberty. 18 is just an arbitrary age with no biological basis.
ARE YOU REALLY SERIOUS?
Puberty is no indication of MENTAL adulthood! There are bodily adults of anything from 30 upwards in age who cannot think like adults! You would appear to be one of them!
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As I have no interest in music I have no interest in musicians either, apart from my own three daughters and eldest grandson, who are very good musicians.
I'm surprised that with your lust for life you don't have your own dance band!
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I'm surprised that with your lust for life you don't have your own dance band!
I have never been to a dance in my life.
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ARE YOU REALLY SERIOUS?
Puberty is no indication of MENTAL adulthood! There are bodily adults of anything from 30 upwards in age who cannot think like adults! You would appear to be one of them!
When my nephew was twelve, he had a friend who was thirteen but who was taller than me and in fact looked like an adult.
But it was totally bizarre because he behaved like the thirteen year old he was. There's no way he could have got married sensibly.
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You are focusing on sexual maturity not emotional or mental maturity Sriram.
And when are all people emotionally and mentally mature.....? At 18, 20, 25. 30, 50, 80???
Why 18...why not 16 or 15 or 20?
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And when are all people emotionally and mentally mature.....? At 18, 20, 25. 30, 50, 80???
Why 18...why not 16 or 15 or 20?
Some are! The vast majority are not!
To allow child marriage is a paedophile's Utopia - especialy if you add in today's quicky divorces!
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And when are all people emotionally and mentally mature.....? At 18, 20, 25. 30, 50, 80???
Why 18...why not 16 or 15 or 20?
Certainly not at 14 or younger.
My point however was that you seemed not to be considering emotional or mental maturity only sexual maturity and that sohould not be the main consideration.
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Certainly not at 14 or younger.
My point however was that you seemed not to be considering emotional or mental maturity only sexual maturity and that sohould not be the main consideration.
Agreed! In Spades!
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Certainly not at 14 or younger.
My point however was that you seemed not to be considering emotional or mental maturity only sexual maturity and that sohould not be the main consideration.
Ah...now that's a new number....14! Why 14 and why not 13?
How do you judge mental and emotional maturity? What is the criterion? At what age do people become mentally and emotionally mature?
Should all sexual activity be banned for 13- 14 year olds (without marriage)....upto 18 year olds?
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Ah...now that's a new number....14! Why 14 and why not 13?
How do you judge mental and emotional maturity? What is the criterion? At what age do people become mentally and emotionally mature?
Should all sexual activity be banned for 13- 14 year olds (without marriage)....upto 18 year olds?
Words fail me - mainly because the words that I think apply to your post would not only get me modded but banned!
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Ah...now that's a new number....14! Why 14 and why not 13?
Look at the thread title Sriram!
How do you judge mental and emotional maturity? What is the criterion? At what age do people become mentally and emotionally mature?
Should all sexual activity be banned for 13- 14 year olds (without marriage)....upto 18 year olds?
Society makes judgements on suitable ages for various activities based on many criteria. Sexual maturity is not one which should be the deciding factor when it comes to the age of consent. If you think that should be the deciding factor then I think you need to think again.
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Being able to conceive doesn’t indicate ideal sexual maturity anyway. Babies born to teens are more likely to be premature and low birth weight. Teen mothers are more likely to have anaemia and hypertension. And in very young bodies that are still growing the body has not yet reached the ideal developmental stage for giving birth. It’s a nonsense.
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Being able to conceive doesn’t indicate ideal sexual maturity anyway. Babies born to teens are more likely to be premature and low birth weight. Teen mothers are more likely to have anaemia and hypertension. And in very young bodies that are still growing the body has not yet reached the ideal developmental stage for giving birth. It’s a nonsense.
Indeed.
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And when are all people emotionally and mentally mature.....? At 18, 20, 25. 30, 50, 80???
Why 18...why not 16 or 15 or 20?
16 is rather young, even though it is legal to marry at that age, but any younger is too young imo. But you had stated a child should be able to get married when they reached puberty, and as I pointed out that can be as young as 10.
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What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?! That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's.
It is a different matter that society today has fixed 18 years as the majority age for most things, including marriage. But nothing immoral about marrying a girl or boy who is post puberty. 18 is just an arbitrary age with no biological basis.
People who reach puberty are not men and women. They are children - average age 10-11 for girls and 11-12 for boys. My son is at this stage and spends his time watching Star Wars and playing footie, not breadwinning or changing nappies. This is because he is a child and not an adult.
What makes you assume that people who marry in their twenties, thirties, even their forties have spent the previous years sleeping around, and if they actually have what is the problem with that?
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sririam:- "What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?! That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's."
No I would say it is better to "sleep around" for fifteen years and marry in late twenties. Maybe my idea of 'sleeping around' is different to yours, I wouldn't call having a handful of relationships "sleeping around", I'd say that was normal.
However I presume you are not advocating marriage at puberty but putting it forward as an argument in debate, which frequently happens on here about all sorts of issues; you've had plenty of response and the general consensus is that most are not physically or emotionally mature enough for a committed relationship at puberty. (Before anyone else says it, I know some never are sufficiently emotionally mature in that way!)
Regarding the legal age of marriage with parental consent & age of consent, 16 seems about right to me. Nothing is perfect but laws are made to protect us all. There was a time when children of 'noble houses' & the very wealthy were married off, playing in eachother's houses until they were old enough to consummate, often widowed before their teens! They had no choice in the matter. The age of consent here is 16 (I believe it is the same in India), but in the 19C it was thirteen. Do we want to see schoolkids marrying? I don't think so, there's time enough for that and plenty of other things to be doing.
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Just eh?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/roy-moore-ally-compares-underage-231500999.html
You remember the old topics where we said they would try and change the laws for the age of consent etc.
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You remember the old topics where we said they would try and change the laws for the age of consent etc.
No, which topics?
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To allow child marriage is a paedophile's Utopia - especialy if you add in today's quicky divorces!
I am sure a lot of paedophiles would agree with Sriram's post! >:( :o
The context of this discussion is NOT paedophilia but hebephilia. Paedophilia is sexual interest in prepubescent children.
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The context of this discussion is NOT paedophilia but hebephilia. Paedophilia is sexual interest in prepubescent children.
Technically correct - but how many people know the precise terms? And what difference does it really make in any case?
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Technically correct - but how many people know the precise terms? And what difference does it really make in any case?
It makes a lot of difference. Sloppy use of English results in sloppy thinking.
It indicates that contributors understand what they are writing about: young people who are sexually mature but have not reached full physical maturity. That is what this thread is about.
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It makes a lot of difference. Sloppy use of English results in sloppy thinking.
Or rather vice versa, perhaps.
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It makes a lot of difference. Sloppy use of English results in sloppy thinking.
It indicates that contributors understand what they are writing about: young people who are sexually mature but have not reached full physical maturity. That is what this thread is about.
As it happens I agree with this. My feeling is that understanding is important in order to protect young people adequately.
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Hi everyone,
This thread is about marrying a 14 year old. Most people today think of a 14 year old as a child. But does this have any biological basis or is it just a recent cultural norm?!
1. The concept of a 'Major' is a fairly recent one. This was required for voting purposes as also for legal purposes of signing documents and cheques, driving and so on. Some age had to be fixed after which a person could be considered an adult and a suitable age was fixed in each country. This has changed significantly over the decades in different countries. Even today it is quite different in different countries and communities, ranging from 16 to 21.
2. Many countries have adopted the same legal Major age for purposes of marriage also. Some countries have adopted a different age for marriage as compared to the legal age of maturity for other purposes.
3. But the fact remains that the Major age (in any country) has no biological basis and is purely arbitrary. It would be absurd to think that a person is mature enough for marriage at 18 years in England but the same person becomes mature at 16 in Scotland and only at 21 in Egypt.
4. The only true and medically ascertainable method of distinguishing between an adult and a child is puberty. It is puberty during which the body and mind of a person changes significantly, at whatever age it may happen in different people.
5. Puberty is when a person becomes capable of sexual activity, marriage and bearing children. Sex with a post pubescent person is not pedophilia as some people have clarified above.
6. The argument about mental and emotional maturity is vague and there is no clear measurable way of ascertaining when a person is mentally and emotionally mature. Many people in their late 20's and 30's or even much later can be emotionally unstable. Many people below 18 or 16 can be very mature emotionally. It depends on the person and their upbringing.
7. People in earlier centuries lived under harsh and demanding conditions because of which they matured much earlier than the present day youngsters do. Therefore a person of 14, if post pubescent, would have been perfectly capable of marrying, bearing children and taking care of herself at that age. People were also much more socially close knit than today and were helped by parents and relatives to manage children. You cannot sit on judgement on such people just because you happen to have a different norm today in your country. I am sure many of your grandparents and great grandparents were well below the marriageable age of today when they married in the early 1900's or late 1800's.
8. Therefore who we consider as a 'Child' is not as clear cut and definitive as some of you seem to think. It differs from country to country and from time to time. As far as emotional maturity is concerned it differs from person to person and no specific age can be fixed.....
9. Another point I wish to make is about sexual activity outside marriage. Leaving the legal aspect aside, if some of you think a girl or boy at say 14 can have sexual relations with several partners, with all its associated problems of diseases, contraception, pregnancy, abortion, rejection, emotional difficulties and so on....why is marriage such a big problem?
Cheers.
Sriram
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Sriram
The only true and medically ascertainable method of distinguishing between an adult and a child is puberty. It is puberty during which the body and mind of a person changes significantly, at whatever age it may happen in different people.
This is not correct. it is far from correct.
It may be used as an excuse for traditional social/cultural behaviour, but it does not reflect physiological reality.
Puberty is only one of several developmental events/processes which contribute to maturity and adulthood. Skeletal growth continues for a number of years beyond puberty. And as for brain development, it continues until the early 20s.
Puberty is merely a stage along the pathway to adulthood
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The context of this discussion is NOT paedophilia but hebephilia. Paedophilia is sexual interest in prepubescent children.
Ok fine, but an adult who preys on underage kids is still considered a pervert.
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Sriram
This is not correct. it is far from correct.
It may be used as an excuse for traditional social/cultural behaviour, but it does not reflect physiological reality.
Puberty is only one of several developmental events/processes which contribute to maturity and adulthood. Skeletal growth continues for a number of years beyond puberty. And as for brain development, it continues until the early 20s.
Puberty is merely a stage along the pathway to adulthood
Great! So what according to you is the right age to demarcate adulthood and why?
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Sriram bhaiya, do you really believe there's a SINGLE age for ALL kids ???
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Fascinating as much of this discussion has been I'm struggling to see what relevance much of it, or the original 'defence' of it was ok for Joseph and Mary has to the alleged sexual assault of a 14 year old by a 32 year old man (at the time) who is standing for election.
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Great! So what according to you is the right age to demarcate adulthood and why?
How many times do you have to be told, advised, (insert other synonyms as appropriate) before you understand that current medical and psychological opinion is that there IS NO ONE AGE.
Youir arguments so far appear to me, and I am, by family history, biased, to be a defence of paedophiles and hebephiles
Whatever it is, your attitude disgusts me beyond my ability to measure it!
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Has Sriram said there is one age? He seems rather to be using puberty as the criteria, not age.
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Has Sriram said there is one age? He seems rather to be using puberty as the criteria, not age.
Considering the vast range of ages at which puberty can strike, at least part of his argument represents, to me, a defence of adults having sex with children!
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Considering the vast range of ages at which puberty can strike, at least part of his argument represents, to me, a defence of adults having sex with children!
Sure. But best be clear on what Sriram is actually saying. Puberty should not be the main criteria and an age limit has to be set based on the norm regarding mental, physical and emotional maturity.
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And the dictionary definition of a child is.......
***********
British Dictionary definitions for child
Expand
child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children
1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty
***********
No age is specified.
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And the dictionary definition of a child is.......
***********
British Dictionary definitions for child
Expand
child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children
1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty
***********
No age is specified.
And the definition of an adult is one that is fully grown. What have either of those got to do with a 32 year old man allegedly sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl and being fit to stand for office on the basis of 'well, Joseph and Mary...'?
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And the dictionary definition of a child is.......
***********
British Dictionary definitions for child
Expand
child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children
1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty
***********
No age is specified.
So are you saying it is ok for an adult to have sex with a ten year old who has gone through puberty?
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All my comments were with reference to Joseph and Mary and not with reference to the senate candidate.
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All my comments were with reference to Joseph and Mary and not with reference to the senate candidate.
That wasn't clear from your posts. ::)
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All my comments were with reference to Joseph and Mary and not with reference to the senate candidate.
So if Joseph was 32 and offered a nice dowry for Mary , you would think that was ok if her parents went, great thanks, that will buy us a new donkey, and they had a quick check that she had menstruated at the age of 11? Even though child birth might not be what her body was physically prepared for or she was mentally capable of consenting to?
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And the dictionary definition of a child is.......
***********
British Dictionary definitions for child
Expand
child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children
1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty
***********
No age is specified.
Have you checked on information regarding the death rate in childbirth of pre-teen mothers at the time?
Are you 100% certain that a 12/13/14 year old's pelvis is sufficiently developed to handle the stress of a baby passing through it!
Or are you promoting the scenario that all such babies be born via ceasarian (sic) des[pite the physical trauma of that particular surgical procedure even on a grown woman.
Also why has it taken about 70 posts on this topic for you to restrict your support for adults having sex with children to the biblical situaltion?
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#MeAt14
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41967461
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#MeAt14
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41967461
How many "children", of any age, these days are ddressed as children and not as miniature adults thanks to the fashion industry!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3482572/Valentino-risks-outrage-sending-young-looking-model-catwalk-nipples-exposed-Paris-Fashion-Week.html
Sorry it's from the D Fail but the picture says it all.
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How many "children", of any age, these days are ddressed as children and not as miniature adults thanks to the fashion industry!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3482572/Valentino-risks-outrage-sending-young-looking-model-catwalk-nipples-exposed-Paris-Fashion-Week.html
Sorry it's from the D Fail but the picture says it all.
Absolutely, I agree
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Fascinating as much of this discussion has been I'm struggling to see what relevance much of it, or the original 'defence' of it was ok for Joseph and Mary has to the alleged sexual assault of a 14 year old by a 32 year old man (at the time) who is standing for election.
I think it's been shown that the original 'defence' was a pile of dingos' kidneys. The defence fails because
- It's pure speculation that Mary was only 14 at the time she got married to Joseph
- We should be judging people by the moral standards of our age, not the first century Roman world.
- Sexual assault is different to getting married. The distinction is made explicit in the gospels by Luke who writes that Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born.
There are probably other good reasons, but those will do for now.
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How many "children", of any age, these days are ddressed as children and not as miniature adults thanks to the fashion industry!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3482572/Valentino-risks-outrage-sending-young-looking-model-catwalk-nipples-exposed-Paris-Fashion-Week.html
Sorry it's from the D Fail but the picture says it all.
Childhood is a Victorian invention. Before the Industrial Revolution, kids were expected to work as best as they could, as to when they were considered suitable to marry depended upon the particular culture in which they were raised.
You, as a "pagan" should know that, rather than me giving you a lecture!
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I agree with HWB.
We should be clear about what are biological reasons and what are purely cultural reasons. Biological reasons are valid everywhere whereas cultural reasons could change from country to country, community to community and from time to time.
According to the dictionary, a person is a child is only from birth to puberty. After that, they are presumably young men and women.
About a 14 year old not being able to give consent.....that depends on lot of things.
1. Under very harsh living conditions people tend to mature very fast. A 14 year old under such conditions may be perfectly capable of giving consent, getting married and having children. Even young children at 7-8 were expected to work and take up responsibilities. (The teddy hugging, thumb sucking archetype is of recent origin and that too only in rich countries).
2. If 14 year old's cannot give consent, they should be at home under mummy's and daddy's care till they are 18 (or 16 or 21 depending on the country ::)). However that is not what usually happens in liberal western countries.
3. According to statistics, nearly 41% of teens have had sexual intercourse....and perhaps with the full knowledge (and approval or indifference) of the parents. So...when you say they cannot give consent, what exactly do you mean? Does it mean that all teens who have sex are criminals and should be charged with rape?
My point is that there is no consistence at all between the liberal sexual life that most westerners lead and the sudden indignation and wrath at supposed trespasses.
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According to the dictionary, a person is a child is only from birth to puberty. After that, they are presumably young men and women.
1 Dictionaries do not define, they describe usage.
2 A person is a child from birth to puberty. Following puberty a person is an adolescent until physical maturity when he or she becomes an adult.
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Emotionally, people do not mature with puberty.
There are arguments about going from a child to adulthood.
Discussions about puberty and if it means adulthood and even wisdom and knowledge to make decisions.
The law is the guideline in every country but a child/adult who cannot make an informed decision about a sexual relationship
regardless of puberty needs protecting.
It isn't okay to have sex with a 14 year old. Two fourteen year olds can make mistakes but an adult had no place having sex with a 14 year old whether they have reached puberty or not.
Our ow five penneth means absolutely nothing in the face of the law. You will prosecute an adult but two fourteen year olds would not be prosecuted. That in itself shows that two fourteen years olds are not seen as responsible adults who can make the right decisions. Right or Wrong varies from Country to Country and their age limits.
But unless special needs adults over 18 know what they are doing. Even 16-18 years old know sex with a person under consensual age is wrong.
Do we really need a discussion to tell us sex with an underage person is wrong?
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Emotionally, people do not mature with puberty.
There are arguments about going from a child to adulthood.
Discussions about puberty and if it means adulthood and even wisdom and knowledge to make decisions.
The law is the guideline in every country but a child/adult who cannot make an informed decision about a sexual relationship
regardless of puberty needs protecting.
It isn't okay to have sex with a 14 year old. Two fourteen year olds can make mistakes but an adult had no place having sex with a 14 year old whether they have reached puberty or not.
Our ow five penneth means absolutely nothing in the face of the law. You will prosecute an adult but two fourteen year olds would not be prosecuted. That in itself shows that two fourteen years olds are not seen as responsible adults who can make the right decisions. Right or Wrong varies from Country to Country and their age limits.
But unless special needs adults over 18 know what they are doing. Even 16-18 years old know sex with a person under consensual age is wrong.
Do we really need a discussion to tell us sex with an underage person is wrong?
Sadly it appears we do!
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Childhood is a Victorian invention. Before the Industrial Revolution, kids were expected to work as best as they could, as to when they were considered suitable to marry depended upon the particular culture in which they were raised.
You, as a "pagan" should know that, rather than me giving you a lecture!
If you are giving me a lecture you might at least get your "facts" right - your lecture, to me, is more like a wind-up!
Paganism did not exist as a religion in the UK until it started to rear its head in 1921 with the publication of Marargaret A Murray's (now totally discredited) "The Witch Cult in Western Europe" in which she set up a theory that witchcraft had existed as an underground pagan religion from the time of the impostiion of Christianity. Her findings were allowed to stand because she was a respected academic, Egyptoligist, despite the fact that most academics were horrified at the way in which she had altered the evidence to fit her theory rather than adjusting her theory to fit the evidence.
It was not until her death in 1963, at the age of 100, that her theory was publicly torn to shreds by academia.
Unfortunately by that time Gerald B Gardner had formed his Wicca on the basis that it was one of the surviving branches of the pre-historic pagan withcraft religion and published "Witchcraft Today" in 1954.
It was only later, the 1970's, that Gardner's fabrication of his Wiccan history began to also be discredited, although, it must be said, the "Hard Gards" of will still not admit that Gardner made the history of Wicca up - it would be the equivalent of telling Christians that thier God is a drunken, gambling, psychopath.
Thus . . .
Childhood is a Victorian invention. Before the Industrial Revolution, kids were expected to work as best as they could, as to when they were considered suitable to marry depended upon the particular culture in which they were raised.
. . . has S F A to do with pganism.
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I agree with HWB.
Of course you do - he is agreeing with you!
That does not make either of you right!
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And the dictionary definition of a child is.......
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British Dictionary definitions for child
Expand
child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children
1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty
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No age is specified.
adolescent
adəˈlɛs(ə)nt/
adjective
1.
(of a young person) in the process of developing from a child into an adult.
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Emotionally, people do not mature with puberty.
There are arguments about going from a child to adulthood.
Discussions about puberty and if it means adulthood and even wisdom and knowledge to make decisions.
The law is the guideline in every country but a child/adult who cannot make an informed decision about a sexual relationship
regardless of puberty needs protecting.
It isn't okay to have sex with a 14 year old. Two fourteen year olds can make mistakes but an adult had no place having sex with a 14 year old whether they have reached puberty or not.
Our ow five penneth means absolutely nothing in the face of the law. You will prosecute an adult but two fourteen year olds would not be prosecuted. That in itself shows that two fourteen years olds are not seen as responsible adults who can make the right decisions. Right or Wrong varies from Country to Country and their age limits.
But unless special needs adults over 18 know what they are doing. Even 16-18 years old know sex with a person under consensual age is wrong.
Do we really need a discussion to tell us sex with an underage person is wrong?
Put this date in the diary - Sassy, I wholeheartedly agree with you!
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1 Dictionaries do not define, they describe usage.
2 A person is a child from birth to puberty. Following puberty a person is an adolescent until physical maturity when he or she becomes an adult.
Yes...I agree. I think I have written at length about adolescence.
But the discussion was about who is a 'child'.....and whether 14 year old's can give consent or not.... and if not why they are allowed, by society and by the Law, to have sex freely with their boy/girl friends.
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Yes...I agree. I think I have written at length about adolescence.
But the discussion was about who is a 'child'.....and whether 14 year old's can give consent or not.... and if not why they are allowed, by society and by the Law, to have sex freely with their boy/girl friends.
What law is that?
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... the discussion was about who is a 'child'.....and whether 14 year old's can give consent or not.... and if not why they are allowed, by society and by the Law, to have sex freely with their boy/girl friends.
The law doesn't allow 14 year olds to have sex Sririam, the point is they can't prevent it. If two kids get caught there isn't much point in prosecuting because no-one would be able to decide on a fitting punishment. No point in locking them up where they will mix with other youngsters who have done far worse.
(Don't go around thinking all 14 year olds are sexually active though because they are not.)
I spoke about this in previous post but the age of consent is there to protect young people from being exploited by adults. It has to be set somewhere and when 16 was introduced it was deemed to be the appropriate age. There are sixteen year olds who are mature for their years whereas others are still like children but the line was drawn because it fitted the 'average' sixteen year old.
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The law doesn't allow 14 year olds to have sex Sririam, the point is they can't prevent it. If two kids get caught there isn't much point in prosecuting because no-one would be able to decide on a fitting punishment. No point in locking them up where they will mix with other youngsters who have done far worse.
(Don't go around thinking all 14 year olds are sexually active though because they are not.)
I spoke about this in previous post but the age of consent is there to protect young people from being exploited by adults. It has to be set somewhere and when 16 was introduced it was deemed to be the appropriate age. There are sixteen year olds who are mature for their years whereas others are still like children but the line was drawn because it fitted the 'average' sixteen year old.
Robbie....the issue is about consent. If 14 year old cannot give consent, how does society or the Law allow such behavior so freely? Or if they cannot prevent such behavior, why do they contend that 14 year old's cannot consent? It is completely in conflict.
In some countries people below 18 years are not allowed to have sex because they are minors and are not capable of consent. And anyone found having sex with a minor is charged with rape....even if that person is a minor himself. It is a criminal offence. That stand is more consistent.
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Robbie
I think that we must remember the specific cultural context which must affect the content of Sriram's posts.
In India the age of consent is 18 but there is - in some poorer areas - a tradition of child brides. I understand that there have been prosecutions of rape made against men who have married girls aged less than 18 and who have insisted on their "conjugal rights". For various reasons, some probably unlawful, in remote rural areas the unlawful traditional practices continue without authorities being aware.
India is a very large country with a huge population and it must be extremely difficult in many cases to monitor and police "traditional" thinking. Its legal framework is not only the consequence of a large variety of cultural and religious traditions but also of British rule which frequently attempted to impose yet other cultural values for about 100 years.
For information see www.girlsnotbrides.org and there is also a Wikipedia entry.
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I get what you are saying Sririam but the law is not perfect.The law-makers and social reformers at the time the age of consent was fixed at 16 in this country did the best they could with the information they had.
This wiki article is quite comprehensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent
As for those under sixteens who have a sexual relationship I don't see how it can be stopped short of policing them 24/7.
I understand how you feel exasperated that we have a law which is not always enforced but as I said before, the law is primarily to protect kids from adults.
Btw I've just seen an interesting post from HH, who got in just before me, at the bottom of the previous page so am drawing your attention to it.
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My point is that, if people of 14 or whatever are incapable of consent..then British and other societies are effectively allowing them to get raped on a daily basis through their liberal sexual lifestyle.
Alternatively, if that lifestyle cannot be changed, then saying that minors are incapable of consent is a farce.
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Parents have a big role to play & trying to ensure that kids have plenty to do that interests them (rather than just one thing), and ambition. It's not easy though in this day and age when sex is so widely advertised.
What would you do Sririam?
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Parents have a big role to play & trying to ensure that kids have plenty to do that interests them (rather than just one thing), and ambition. It's not easy though in this day and age when sex is so widely advertised.
What would you do Sririam?
That ole devil and the idle hands....
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Idle eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more.
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Positive healthy excercise .... ::)
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Robbie
I think that we must remember the specific cultural context which must affect the content of Sriram's posts.
In India the age of consent is 18 but there is - in some poorer areas - a tradition of child brides. I understand that there have been prosecutions of rape made against men who have married girls aged less than 18 and who have insisted on their "conjugal rights". For various reasons, some probably unlawful, in remote rural areas the unlawful traditional practices continue without authorities being aware.
India is a very large country with a huge population and it must be extremely difficult in many cases to monitor and police "traditional" thinking. Its legal framework is not only the consequence of a large variety of cultural and religious traditions but also of British rule which frequently attempted to impose yet other cultural values for about 100 years.
For information see www.girlsnotbrides.org and there is also a Wikipedia entry.
To my mind that does not, in any way, shape, or form, make it acceptable anywhere in the world in the 21st Century.
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My point is that, if people of 14 or whatever are incapable of consent..then British and other societies are effectively allowing them to get raped on a daily basis through their liberal sexual lifestyle.
Alternatively, if that lifestyle cannot be changed, then saying that minors are incapable of consent is a farce.
You have some very odd ideas.
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To my mind that does not, in any way, shape, or form, make it acceptable anywhere in the world in the 21st Century.
Are you suggesting that I do think it acceptable?
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Nobody thinks it is acceptable HH nor would want to go back to times when it was accepted (like King John of England marrying Isabella of Angoulême when he was in his forties and she was about twelve).
I'm interested to hear from Sririam how he would propose to plug the gaps in our age of consent law. I really have no ideas.
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Are you suggesting that I do think it acceptable?
Not you ol' son!
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...and meanwhile, France is thinking of making 13 as the age of consent. How about that then?!
Once they can give consent for sex they can also give consent for marriage presumably.....IMO.
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Parents have a big role to play & trying to ensure that kids have plenty to do that interests them (rather than just one thing), and ambition. It's not easy though in this day and age when sex is so widely advertised.
What would you do Sririam?
Robbie,
What would I do about what? About the conflict between liberal values and the problem with the age of consent?
I have no idea. You must find a suitable solution within your society. But the obvious inconsistency definitely needs to be resolved.
I mean to say...you can't have a situation can you, where a father says......
"Oh..my daughter is 14 already...(my my, how fast they grow)... and her hormones are firing (wink ...wink)...so she must surely enjoy her youth like everyone else. Let her have fun with the boys but make sure you use those latex thingies ....you know what I mean........(chuckle chuckle)" ... ...and then suddenly turn around and thunder..." "She is only 14 by Jove!....she certainly cannot give consent for sex or any such rubbish.....CERTAINLY NOT!!"
That would be too much like a split personality...!
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Robbie
I think that we must remember the specific cultural context which must affect the content of Sriram's posts.
In India the age of consent is 18 but there is - in some poorer areas - a tradition of child brides. I understand that there have been prosecutions of rape made against men who have married girls aged less than 18 and who have insisted on their "conjugal rights". For various reasons, some probably unlawful, in remote rural areas the unlawful traditional practices continue without authorities being aware.
India is a very large country with a huge population and it must be extremely difficult in many cases to monitor and police "traditional" thinking. Its legal framework is not only the consequence of a large variety of cultural and religious traditions but also of British rule which frequently attempted to impose yet other cultural values for about 100 years.
For information see www.girlsnotbrides.org and there is also a Wikipedia entry.
HH....you really must do something about your 'India' paranoia...! ;)
Be that as it may....India lives in many centuries at the same time. There are some who still live in the Vedic times...some who live in the medieval times and some who are fairly modern... and some who are even more liberal than the liberal western societies themselves. There is a great mix of values, lifestyles and customs.....and as you say, there are 1.3 billion people!
Yes... no doubt, in India there is one section of traditional society that feels that people should get married once they attain puberty (in common with other traditional societies world wide). This is in conflict with the law that says that girls cannot get married before 18 years of age and boys before 21.
But, as you might perhaps notice..,.this is about marriage... and is a well known conflict between traditional lifestyles and secular legal issues. Nothing new.
However, there is absolutely no part of society...neither the traditional one nor the Legal one... that tolerates people having sex freely below the age of majority. Any person found having sex with an underage girl is charged with rape...period! No conflict at all!
No one encourages free sex on the one hand and shouts 'RAPE' on the other! ::)
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HH....you really must do something about your 'India' paranoia...! ;)
Be that as it may....India lives in many centuries at the same time. There are some who still live in the Vedic times...some who live in the medieval times and some who are fairly modern... and some who are even more liberal than the liberal western societies themselves. There is a great mix of values, lifestyles and customs.....and as you say, there are 1.3 billion people!
Yes... no doubt, in India there is one section of traditional society that feels that people should get married once they attain puberty (in common with other traditional societies world wide). This is in conflict with the law that says that girls cannot get married before 18 years of age and boys before 21.
But, as you might perhaps notice..,.this is about marriage... and is a well known conflict between traditional lifestyles and secular legal issues. Nothing new.
However, there is absolutely no part of society...neither the traditional one nor the Legal one... that tolerates people having sex freely below the age of majority. Any person found having sex with an underage girl is charged with rape...period! No conflict at all!
No one encourages free sex on the one hand and shouts 'RAPE' on the other! ::)
Quite clearly they do when rape is used as a legally imposed punishment!
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Sririam (Good Morning), I get the impression that you believe our society is totally decadent. I can assure you NO-ONE would want their 14 year old to be having sex, too much too soon. If 14 year olds do it, it isn't with approval - but the vast majority don't. We hear about the ones that do in the media.
No father would say:-
""Oh..my daughter is 14 already...(my my, how fast they grow)... and her hormones are firing (wink ...wink)...so she must surely enjoy her youth like everyone else. Let her have fun with the boys but make sure you use those latex thingies ....you know what I mean........(chuckle chuckle)" ... ...and then suddenly turn around and thunder..." "She is only 14 by Jove!....she certainly cannot give consent for sex or any such rubbish.....CERTAINLY NOT!!""
That's a totally fictitious scenario. We're not as liberal as you seem to think.
It's true that sex with a person under 16 is statutory rape but the difficulty is what to do if there are two 14 year olds committing statutory rape with eachother. Not much point in locking up two kids, nor would it be a good idea for them to marry at that age even if it was legal. There is the dilemma.
The only answer is education and to fire youngsters up with some ambition so they don't mess up their lives before they've even left school.
I didn't know France was considering lowering the age of consent to 13. Seems wrong to me, a lot of 13 year olds haven't even reached puberty but that is France's business.
You seem cross with us Sririam, I am sad you have such a poor opinion. I can assure you there is plenty to like about growing up & living here for most people.
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Sririam (Good Morning), I get the impression that you believe our society is totally decadent. I can assure you NO-ONE would want their 14 year old to be having sex, too much too soon. If 14 year olds do it, it isn't with approval - but the vast majority don't. We hear about the ones that do in the media.
No father would say:-
""Oh..my daughter is 14 already...(my my, how fast they grow)... and her hormones are firing (wink ...wink)...so she must surely enjoy her youth like everyone else. Let her have fun with the boys but make sure you use those latex thingies ....you know what I mean........(chuckle chuckle)" ... ...and then suddenly turn around and thunder..." "She is only 14 by Jove!....she certainly cannot give consent for sex or any such rubbish.....CERTAINLY NOT!!""
That's a totally fictitious scenario. We're not as liberal as you seem to think.
It's true that sex with a person under 16 is statutory rape but the difficulty is what to do if there are two 14 year olds committing statutory rape with eachother. Not much point in locking up two kids, nor would it be a good idea for them to marry at that age even if it was legal. There is the dilemma.
The only answer is education and to fire youngsters up with some ambition so they don't mess up their lives before they've even left school.
I didn't know France was considering lowering the age of consent to 13. Seems wrong to me, a lot of 13 year olds haven't even reached puberty but that is France's business.
You seem cross with us Sririam, I am sad you have such a poor opinion. I can assure you there is plenty to like about growing up & living here for most people.
Cross with you...? No...no of course not! Whatever gave you that idea?! :)
I have great respect and liking for Britain and even America (don't care much for France really). But there are obvious inconsistencies that need to be pointed out. Every society thinks it is perfect and doing everything right....and everyone else is wrong. That is true even in India ...(but we fight so much among ourselves due to the wide lifestyle differences...that we don't need anyone else).
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For info...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4914784/french-age-of-consent-may-be-reduced-to-13-years-old-after-courts-rule-two-11-year-old-girls-werent-raped/
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French age of consent may be reduced to 13 YEARS OLD after courts rule two 11-year-old girls weren’t raped
FRANCE is considering a change to the laws surrounding sexual consent after two men were acquitted of raping two 11 year old girls.
Justice Minister Nicole Belloubet today said that the age of just 13 was now a "limit that is worth considering" by law makers.
However, she made it clear she believed judges should still assess whether someone was old enough to give consent on a case-by-case basis.
The move comes after the French courts twice refused to prosecute grown men for rape after they had sex with 11-year-olds because authorities couldn't prove coercion.
It is already illegal in France to have sex with under 15s, but rape charges can only be brought if prosecutors can prove the act was non-consensual.
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We certainly don't believe our society is perfect Sririam!
As for France, I don't see how grown men having sex with 11 year olds is anything but rape.
I hope they don't lower the age of consent.
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I mean to say...you can't have a situation can you, where a father says......
"Oh..my daughter is 14 already...(my my, how fast they grow)... and her hormones are firing (wink ...wink)...so she must surely enjoy her youth like everyone else. Let her have fun with the boys but make sure you use those latex thingies ....you know what I mean........(chuckle chuckle)" ... ...and then suddenly turn around and thunder..." "She is only 14 by Jove!....she certainly cannot give consent for sex or any such rubbish.....CERTAINLY NOT!!"
That would be too much like a split personality...!
I don't know if you have daughters Sriram: I have two (both adults now), and also two grand-daughters - and the scenario you outline above isn't something I recognise ever thinking as a father of daughters during their teenage years, and I doubt that any other father of teenage daughters would think like this.
In fact the dichotomy you portray seems perverse enough to read like an unpleasant pastiche of fatherhood in a draft script of 'Carry On Parenting': to be voiced by the likes of Sid James.
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First of all, a couple of points to be cleared up.
Robbie - You have been watching too much American television. There is no such concept in English Law as "statutory rape".
Sriram - I was trying very hard to be sympathetic to the situation in India. I have no "paranoia" about India, I am very concious of the problems of governing such a large and culturally diverse country - and I acknowledge the buggeration factor resulting from the British raj.
May I open up this discussion a little?
For millennia, in very many cultures and religions, women have been considered the property of men, intellectually and physically inferior to men, breeding machines and domestic slaves. We now live in more liberal times when the total humanity of women, when their legal equality with men, and the right to conduct their own lives as they see fit are becoming generally accepted.
One of the things that must be accepted is that women (should) have total autonomy over their own bodies. This applies from puberty onwards and it also applies in marriage. The purpose of an age of consent is to ensure that a sexually mature, but still growing, young woman is protected from predatory (or opportunistic) men as well as from a (probably) incomplete understanding of the biological impulses and pressures she may be feeling. When she does achieve the appropriate age, her body is hers to do with what she wants. I think that it is wrong to consider an age of consent simply as a barrier erected to keep men away.
This all implies that pubescent (and prepubescent) girls and boys should receive appropriate and comprehensive education in personal development. It should be free from restrictive cultural and religious influences - which typically are concerned with restricting the roles and activities of women.
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Might be worth noting that there is a concept of statutory rape in the UK - for England and Wales since Sexual Offences Act 2003, and for Scotland since Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009. It uses the same split that was mentioned as being considered by the French - 13. It is not an age of consent as such since sex with someone under the age of 16 by someone older than it is a sexual offence.
ETA - the French laws regard it as rape if there is no consent. there isn't an age at which there is no need to show that non consent for it to be rape. So they are not reducing the 'age of consent' but proposing an age at which some form of statutory rape would apply. As noted 13 is the same as the UK.
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Thank you for that clarification, NS.
However, statutory rape is not the catch-all default offence that it is in many US state legislations.
Another aspect of French law (although from time to time it becomes a matter of debate) is that incest between consenting adults is not an offence. This also true of some other countries - eg Netherlands.
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I don't know if you have daughters Sriram: I have two (both adults now), and also two grand-daughters - and the scenario you outline above isn't something I recognise ever thinking as a father of daughters during their teenage years, and I doubt that any other father of teenage daughters would think like this.
In fact the dichotomy you portray seems perverse enough to read like an unpleasant pastiche of fatherhood in a draft script of 'Carry On Parenting': to be voiced by the likes of Sid James.
Hi Gordon,
I remember Sid James alright.....Ha..Ha. I agree that maybe I overdid the lighthearted father bit somewhat! ;)
But the statistics about underage sex have something to say....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574814/Britain-has-worst-underage-sex-rates.html (a little dated I agree but still fairly telling)
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More children are having sex in Britain than in any other country in Europe, according to World Health Organisation figures published on Monday.
Girls outstrip boys in the numbers prepared to have sex aged 15 or younger - leading to 20 of them getting pregnant each day.
The spiralling level of teenage pregnancy not only robs young people of their childhoods but contributes to a vicious circle of family break-up, say experts.
Four out of 10 girls in England have underage sex - more than in any other European country.
English girls were followed by Welsh girls - 39 per cent of whom had underage sex. Third highest was Scotland with 34.1 per cent of girls.
The number of boys in Britain having underage sex is 34.9 per cent and higher than every other European country apart from the Ukraine with 47.1 per cent.
And more than 15 per cent of the teenagers in England fail to use contraception.
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Quite clearly parents are either allowing this behavior or are just indifferent to it. Either way, it is quite clear that underage persons are having sex in large numbers. Saying that they are not capable of consent is obviously....farcical. That was my point.
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First of all, a couple of points to be cleared up.
Robbie - You have been watching too much American television. There is no such concept in English Law as "statutory rape".
Sriram - I was trying very hard to be sympathetic to the situation in India. I have no "paranoia" about India, I am very concious of the problems of governing such a large and culturally diverse country - and I acknowledge the buggeration factor resulting from the British raj.
May I open up this discussion a little?
For millennia, in very many cultures and religions, women have been considered the property of men, intellectually and physically inferior to men, breeding machines and domestic slaves. We now live in more liberal times when the total humanity of women, when their legal equality with men, and the right to conduct their own lives as they see fit are becoming generally accepted.
One of the things that must be accepted is that women (should) have total autonomy over their own bodies. This applies from puberty onwards and it also applies in marriage. The purpose of an age of consent is to ensure that a sexually mature, but still growing, young woman is protected from predatory (or opportunistic) men as well as from a (probably) incomplete understanding of the biological impulses and pressures she may be feeling. When she does achieve the appropriate age, her body is hers to do with what she wants. I think that it is wrong to consider an age of consent simply as a barrier erected to keep men away.
This all implies that pubescent (and prepubescent) girls and boys should receive appropriate and comprehensive education in personal development. It should be free from restrictive cultural and religious influences - which typically are concerned with restricting the roles and activities of women.
HH,
I agree whole heartedly about allowing adult women the freedom to choose.
Of course, this can become problematic if the appropriate cultural boundaries are not also emphasized at the same time. As they say...there is no freedom without the Law (for anyone).
The boundaries that are related to mental and physical discipline need to be taught to everyone....men and women. Mental discipline, sexual discipline, control over ones mind and desires are the most important developmental lessons that we need to teach our children. This is for their own mental and physical health...and long term happiness.
Freedom without discipline can destroy us (men and women) well before we are even aware of it.
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Hi Gordon,
I remember Sid James alright.....Ha..Ha. I agree that maybe I overdid the lighthearted father bit somewhat! ;)
But the statistics about underage sex have something to say....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574814/Britain-has-worst-underage-sex-rates.html (a little dated I agree but still fairly telling)
*************
More children are having sex in Britain than in any other country in Europe, according to World Health Organisation figures published on Monday.
Girls outstrip boys in the numbers prepared to have sex aged 15 or younger - leading to 20 of them getting pregnant each day.
The spiralling level of teenage pregnancy not only robs young people of their childhoods but contributes to a vicious circle of family break-up, say experts.
Four out of 10 girls in England have underage sex - more than in any other European country.
English girls were followed by Welsh girls - 39 per cent of whom had underage sex. Third highest was Scotland with 34.1 per cent of girls.
The number of boys in Britain having underage sex is 34.9 per cent and higher than every other European country apart from the Ukraine with 47.1 per cent.
And more than 15 per cent of the teenagers in England fail to use contraception.
**************
Quite clearly parents are either allowing this behavior or are just indifferent to it. Either way, it is quite clear that underage persons are having sex in large numbers. Saying that they are not capable of consent is obviously....farcical. That was my point.
Just because it happens does not make it right!
Murder happens but it is not right!
Why? Simply because there are inmnoocent victims! Ditto with the adult/child sex scenario - the children are innocent vistims.
Just because it happened 2017 years ago in Judea between a man (supposedly) 2000 years old, a slightly younger husband and a 14 year old girl, does not maker it right today!
Just because it happens in the remote and backward regions of some countries today does not make it right for any other country today.
Maybe you should turn your missionary zeal to stopping it in these remote and backward regions where it is deemed acceptable because it is part of the region's history before you preach to ours!
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Sririam:- "Four out of 10 girls in England have underage sex"
That doesn't surprise me at all. I'm 57 but when I was at school there were a few who did especially if they had steady boyfriends, most of us waited until we were a bit older. A lot of underage girls & boys lack judgement but "having sex" for the first time is often viewed as a milestone.
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The other aspects of setting a legal age of consent are to act as a deterent (we shouldn't do this as its illegal) and to show what standards Society expects. The fact that it is difficult to police and in certain cases difficult to decide on a punishment doesn't mean that the age of consent is irrelevant.
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More children are having sex in Britain than in any other country in Europe, according to World Health Organisation figures published on Monday.
Girls outstrip boys in the numbers prepared to have sex aged 15 or younger - leading to 20 of them getting pregnant each day.
The spiralling level of teenage pregnancy not only robs young people of their childhoods but contributes to a vicious circle of family break-up, say experts.
Four out of 10 girls in England have underage sex - more than in any other European country.
English girls were followed by Welsh girls - 39 per cent of whom had underage sex. Third highest was Scotland with 34.1 per cent of girls.
The number of boys in Britain having underage sex is 34.9 per cent and higher than every other European country apart from the Ukraine with 47.1 per cent.
And more than 15 per cent of the teenagers in England fail to use contraception.
**************
As far as I'm aware girls do mature earlier that boys.
Even so, all this illustrates is that there may be some issues to be addressed as regards young people in some cases, such as education, advice or supervision (where required) to protect the vulnerable, and that some young people are sexually active earlier that others is hardly news. I'd imagine most parents guide and support their children during adolescence and well after they reach the age of consent (some would call it parental love) and it may be some young people are capable in terms of sex and relationship choices far earlier than others and are well able to make informed choices that should be respected.
Clearly where exploitation and criminal abuse occurs it always needs to be addressed
Quite clearly parents are either allowing this behavior or are just indifferent to it. Either way, it is quite clear that underage persons are having sex in large numbers. Saying that they are not capable of consent is obviously....farcical. That was my point.
False dichotomy there, and hasty generalisation.
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It would help the discussion if Sriram indicated that he understood that referring to the French proposal as regards setting an age of 13 under which all sex is regarded as being rape is not an age of consent. And indeed, that sex can be carried put physically, is not what the legal age of consent refers to.
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Maybe more underage girls in Britain are having sex. But what about Spain where the age of consent is 15 would they be viewed as it being higher for underage sex if the age was 15 here? I am not sure about this thread. I think we all have our views but girls and boys should not be having sex with adults whether 16 or younger.
I get an underlying tone on this thread as if someone is trying to suggest there is a reason to allow children under 16 especially girls to have sex. But my own personal view as a mother and a woman is that the age of consent should remain 16 years and any two young persons who do have sex before the age of consent should not be treated as criminals.
I believe young people should be allowed to grow at their own pace and anyone over 18 having sex with anyone underage should be prosecuted.
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Hello Sassy. There have been a couple of rather unsavoury & controversial cases in France recently regarding girls as young as 11! In light of these & because so many people were understandably up in arms about it, so I read yesterday, the French have now set a lowest age of consent at 15. Well here it is 16 but at least it is something.
You said:- But my own personal view as a mother and a woman is that the age of consent should remain 16 years and any two young persons who do have sex before the age of consent should not be treated as criminals.
I believe young people should be allowed to grow at their own pace and anyone over 18 having sex with anyone underage should be prosecuted.
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I agree with that, especially the first para. There will be exceptions for the second (ie someone nearly 16 with a partner of 18, if they're going out regularly & care for eachother, no point in the strong arm of the law then), but as a rule of thumb it's good.
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Hello Sassy. There have been a couple of rather unsavoury & controversial cases in France recently regarding girls as young as 11! In light of these & because so many people were understandably up in arms about it, so I read yesterday, the French have now set a lowest age of consent at 15. Well here it is 16 but at least it is something.
You said:- But my own personal view as a mother and a woman is that the age of consent should remain 16 years and any two young persons who do have sex before the age of consent should not be treated as criminals.
I believe young people should be allowed to grow at their own pace and anyone over 18 having sex with anyone underage should be prosecuted.
...
I agree with that, especially the first para. There will be exceptions for the second (ie someone nearly 16 with a partner of 18, if they're going out regularly & care for eachother, no point in the strong arm of the law then), but as a rule of thumb it's good.
I agree with what Sassy said too,. The only bit I would question is the bit about saying 'as a mother and a woman' as if is a factor. I am neither but think the same.
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I suspect that Sassy may have been referring to her own experiences as a growing girl and to the relationship between someone who was once a growing girl and her daughter.
In general, I agree with her.
I don't really know what it is like to be an adolescent today, I hope that sex is not demonised in the way that it was when I was young but treated in a more open, everyday manner, and that rationality is used instead of either hellfire or social derision to dissuade young people from sexual experimentation. The current legal framework was probably established a long time ago. Since then there has been a reduction in the age of menarche (not necessarily the same as first ovulation) - it is probably more productive to consider adolescent girls not as children but developing women.
I believe that young people should be encouraged to be comfortable with and within their bodies, and that, for example, masturbation is not demonised.
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I agree with what Sassy said too,. The only bit I would question is the bit about saying 'as a mother and a woman' as if is a factor. I am neither but think the same.
I think Sassy is saying that her experience of motherhood informs her opinions. You have a different reason for coming to the same conclusions.
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Quite. You don't have to be a mother to have informed opinions. I'm sure sometimes it doesn't help at all because you would nearly always think of 'my little one', unobjectively! Experience with people of all ages and levels does help.
HH:- I believe that young people should be encouraged to be comfortable with and within their bodies, and that, for example, masturbation is not demonised.
Definitely HH. It's not always a selfish act, especially if one is in love (I resisted putting that in quotes).
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... and that, for example, masturbation is not demonised.
Definitely HH. It's not always a selfish act, especially if one is in love (I resisted putting that in quotes).
And now you are doing just that - if not demonising at least being judgemental.
A selfish act.
What is selfish about it? Masturbation is an act which can bring about comfort, relaxation, endorphin release, peace and pleasure. It harms no one and requires no one else to participate. It is normal and natural behaviour.
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And now you are doing just that - if not demonising at least being judgemental.
A selfish act.
What is selfish about it? Masturbation is an act which can bring about comfort, relaxation, endorphin release, peace and pleasure. It harms no one and requires no one else to participate. It is normal and natural behaviour.
Agree, HH. I've seen masturbation described as 'dirty' before, but never selfish. Actually, it's healthy. Aside from the reasons you give, it helps to teach self acceptance and should be a part of exploring one's sexuality, discovering how one's own body responds.
We live in a world where words for genitalia are insults, the 'worst of the lot' referring to the female. Learning that one's own body isn't a source of shame, but a source of pleasure, is a part of acceptance of ourselves.
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I didn't intend to be judgemental HH but I can see how it came across as such. I do agree with you & in any case it's a private thing. You've gotta remember I'm a woman, we're 'wired' differently to men & the only time I ever felt like doing that (& didn't know how until I was in my twenties!), was when I really cared about someone and longed for them - & it was nice! Other than that it never crossed my mind - wasn't a 'need' as such. I couldn't care less what anyone does in private, agree it should not be demonised.
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Men and women wired differently? Indeed, there are genuine sex differences related to neural development but these are frequently not as great as people may think - usually more like two normal distributions portrayed on the same graph but with slightly different means and with male values showing more variability than female values. I recall being told, in undergraduate neurophysiology classes that the female corpus callosum (the band of neural tissue connecting the two hemispheres of the brain) contains a greater number of neural pathways than the male equivalent. This is now considered to be untrue - the result of some measurement artifact.
I suspect that cultural rather than physiological reasons were very important in determining attitudes to masturbation. That it was - as Rhiannon says - "dirty" and small children were scolded for touching themselves "inappropriately". There were cultural attitudes placing a high value on virginity. There were myths associating masturbation with physical and mental defects - even going so far as to suggest that its practice would reduce life expectancy. The christian religion sought to associate sexual activity with shame and guilt.
And John Harvey Kellogg advocated circumcision for boys and the application of phenol to the clitoris in girls as a means of combating the "solitary vice" ... and developed the corn flake as a food which would not provide energy which could be wasted in sexual activity.
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HH:-And John Harvey Kellogg advocated circumcision for boys and the application of phenol to the clitoris in girls as a means of combating the "solitary vice" ... and developed the corn flake as a food which would not provide energy which could be wasted in sexual activity.
I remember you talking about that once before and quite recently I've read something in which Kellogg cropped up. It's horrifying. Makes me wince when I think about carbolic......
I wonder about Kellogg himself, did he not have normal responses. Oh well that was then, we've moved on thank heavens.
When I was a child & teenager no-one taught me genitalia or sex was dirty or anything like that, I'm sure if they had I'd have worried about it & probably wanted to experiment before I was ready- before even feeling anything - just to find out for myself what it was about. I'm extremely glad not to have grown up in times when such subjects were taboo.
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We don’t live in an age of self acceptance now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-40443922/why-i-wanted-vagina-surgery-as-a-teenager
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I've read about girls having or wanting labial reduction and such like. Seems such a shame not to accept or like the normal shape & feel of that part of them.
(For some reason I've just thought I must re-read the Vagina Monologues.)
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We don’t live in an age of self acceptance now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-40443922/why-i-wanted-vagina-surgery-as-a-teenager
Unless there is a medical problem this surgery should never be performed on a child.
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Ever since I read what was in that link, I've had pop up ads about vaginal surgery (other things too, like Bitcoin which I first discovered on an R&E thread).
A couple of years ago I saw a programme featuring a sex education person from (I think) the Netherlands, who talked to British school children (12-16ish) about vaginas, showing pics of what they looked like and saying, "This is what it is and it's fine". All the girls who were present were grateful for that because they had little idea! Certainly a worthwhile exercise.
She talked about many other things - I was impressed - but maybe for another thread.