Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Harrowby Hall on December 15, 2017, 06:39:26 PM
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Liam Allen has had the charge of rape dismissed on the third day of his trial at Croydon Crown Court.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42365521
Mr Allen had been waiting for trial for two years. The police and the CPS were in possession of no fewer than 40,000 messages from the complainant in which she attested to her enjoyment of her encounters with him or which were encouraging messages to him. It is reported that he will be suing the Metropolitan Police and Crown Prosecution Service.
Aside from the actions (or non-actions) of the Met and CPS, what will happen to his accuser? So far, she has not been named - I believe that complainants in sex-related cases are not named. Will she simply disappear into permanent anonymity, her identity permanently protected by a well-meaning but inadequate law? Could she, too, be sued - for libel, presumably? Or could she face trial? No doubt had she entered the witness box and continued with her accusations she could be tried for perjury.
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Seems, from what is in the public domain, like a clear case of organisational failure for whatever reason, though it sounds like incompetence from what the barrister said when interviewed. I'd imagine, given what is reported, someone will look at the accuser's conduct in letting the prosecution proceed.
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I'm sorry but, with regard to the accuser's continuing anonymity in such cases, this comes up every time a case such as this surfaces and is, as far as I am concerned, as much a failure of justice as is the ciontinuiny anonymity granted to Jon Venables, Jamie Bulger's murderer.
This despite his repeated re-offending with regards to his possession of pornographic child-abuse images. At the time of the Bulger murder, if I remember rightly, his defense team had his, Vernables', Social Services records withheld from being entered in evidence. Records which, reportedly, showed that he had been receiving treatment for behaviour "of a deviant nature".
There is really no point in bringing the matter of accuser anomnymity up each time as, until someone in a position to do so gets off their fat ugly overpaid politician arse and initiates a change in the law, such anonymous accusations are going to keep occurring ad nauseam ad infinitum with the assisstance of the Human Rights legislation at present in place.
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Liam Allen has had the charge of rape dismissed on the third day of his trial at Croydon Crown Court.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42365521
Mr Allen had been waiting for trial for two years. The police and the CPS were in possession of no fewer than 40,000 messages from the complainant in which she attested to her enjoyment of her encounters with him or which were encouraging messages to him. It is reported that he will be suing the Metropolitan Police and Crown Prosecution Service.
Aside from the actions (or non-actions) of the Met and CPS, what will happen to his accuser? So far, she has not been named - I believe that complainants in sex-related cases are not named. Will she simply disappear into permanent anonymity, her identity permanently protected by a well-meaning but inadequate law? Could she, too, be sued - for libel, presumably? Or could she face trial? No doubt had she entered the witness box and continued with her accusations she could be tried for perjury.
Libel, probably not. She could be charged with various criminal offences, no doubt somebody in the CPS is looking through the various statutes now, plod are quick enough to throw the book at minor offenders.
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To falsely accuse anyone of sexual abuse is of course very wrong indeed. It doesn't encourage the very many people who have made genuine accusations of abuse to come forward and report it.
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I saw that on the news last night, read about it today and was horrified. That poor man has had it hanging over his head for so long. Certainly there should be some sort of reckoning for his accuser - unless she is mentally ill in which case that should be made clear without giving away her identity in the media. Probably a lot of people know who she is already but not nationally.
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Libel, probably not. She could be charged with various criminal offences, no doubt somebody in the CPS is looking through the various statutes now, plod are quick enough to throw the book at minor offenders.
The "plod" - don't prosecute (throw the book at) any offenders - major or minor - it is the C P S that does that and the "plod" define the C P S as the Criminal Protection Service for a very good reason.
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There have been other, similar, cases in recent times, I think I read of one where a guy actually went to prison but eventually his sentence was quashed. Yet mud sticks. It's frightening to think it could happen to anyone!
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The "plod" - don't prosecute (throw the book at) any offenders - major or minor - it is the C P S that does that and the "plod" define the C P S as the Criminal Protection Service for a very good reason.
Ever heard of a Fixed Penalty Notice?
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There have been other, similar, cases in recent times, I think I read of one where a guy actually went to prison but eventually his sentence was quashed. Yet mud sticks. It's frightening to think it could happen to anyone!
I read about that, he insisted in court that the penetration was her idea, and that she had demanded of him "Get your pants down". Yet the Jury believed her, and he was in prison for two years.
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You remember more detail than I, Humph! I certainly can't recall that so precisely.
(I'd hate to be on a jury, be so undecided & would always rather a guilty person go free than an innocent one be locked up. We'd be deadlocked, all the other jurors would hate me. Then I'd have a breakdown and retire from the world for a year. Hope I'm never called up. If it happens I'll be ill, or emigrate.)
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This is not a comment about this case specifically.
If you have sex with somebody without their consent, it doesn't matter how many times previously they have sent you messages of love and admiration, how many times they have previously had consensual sex with you, if, on this occasion, they said no, it is still rape.
This is a comment about this case.
So the police had 40,000 messages attesting to the alleged victim's enjoyment of sex with the accused, it doesn't matter, if she said no on that one occasion, it is rape.
If she didn't say anything or give any indication of non consent, given their previous history, I guess the man could assume consent. Although, I'm bound to say that 40,000 messages sounds rather stalker-ish to me.
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I read about that, he insisted in court that the penetration was her idea, and that she had demanded of him "Get your pants down". Yet the Jury believed her, and he was in prison for two years.
I recall an essay in which (Vlad alert) R****** D****** called the jury system something like the best bad idea that anybody ever had: in other words it seems on first blush to be a good idea, but apply a bit of critical thought to it for two minutes and it's soon apparent why it's an unwashed pile of undergarments.
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I recall an essay in which (Vlad alert) R****** D****** called the jury system something like the best bad idea that anybody ever had: in other words it seems on first blush to be a good idea, but apply a bit of critical thought to it for two minutes and it's soon apparent why it's an unwashed pile of undergarments.
Somebody I know was serving on a jury (not a rape trial) and one of the other jurors used "he had kind eyes" as an argument for innocence.
It's terrifying when you think about what rests on it.
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Somebody I know was serving on a jury (not a rape trial) and one of the other jurors used "he had kind eyes" as an argument for innocence.
Which was actually a Hancock's Half Hour episode. Truly. Except that that was meant to be comedy.
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Which was actually a Hancock's Half Hour episode. Truly. Except that that was meant to be comedy.
It might have been but it did actually happen in a real jury trial.
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It might have been but it did actually happen in a real jury trial.
I believe you. And therein is the ridiculousness of it.
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Despite my personal fears about being a juror, I've always thought it a good idea to have a number of a cross section of non-legal people making decisions about things which affect all of us. I suppose the 'cross section' is the question, they are chosen at random.
What would you suggest as an alternative?
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Despite my personal fears about being a juror, I've always thought it a good idea to have a number of a cross section of non-legal people making decisions about things which affect all of us. I suppose the 'cross section' is the question, they are chosen at random.
What would you suggest as an alternative?
For most of my working life I was exempt from jury service, since I took legal exams & worked as a Paralegal (For Jeremy, that means "Legal Executive"). Then, whilst I was out of the country in the early naughties, the Labour Government changed the law. So I was finally plucked from the electoral role in the twenty teens. I found a blazer in my wardrobe which I had not worn since nineteen eighty erm, put on what looked like an old school tie, and looked as middle class and as conservative (reactionary) as I could, in the hope that the ethnic minority defendants' lawyers would object to me.
Sadly, they did not.
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Sounds like a plan, Humph. Pity it didn't work.
Some of my family members and friends have been jurors and had no problem. I wonder why I am so scared of it really but I think they don't call people after the age of 60 so if I can survive the next two and a bit years, I'll be in the clear. Or is it 65! Aaargh.
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Ever heard of a Fixed Penalty Notice?
That is not 'throwing the book'! A Fixed Penalty Notice is where an offence is so blindingly obvious - PLEASE NOTE BLOODY GREAT "NO PARKING" SIGN - that you have convicted yourself.
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That is not 'throwing the book'! A Fixed Penalty Notice is where an offence is so blindingly obvious - PLEASE NOTE BLOODY GREAT "NO PARKING" SIGN - that you have convicted yourself.
If it is so obvious, how comes that I have seen off three parking tickets, one congestion charge notice, and two court summonses?
It is an attempt by plod & local councils to intimidate people into not fighting their corner. Plod issue FPN's for things like speeding.
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If it is so obvious, how comes that I have seen off three parking tickets, one congestion charge notice, and two court summonses?
It is an attempt by plod & local councils to intimidate people into not fighting their corner. Plod issue FPN's for things like speeding.
And how did you get out of them, go into hiding?
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There's a protocol for appealing against them & sometimes people win their appeal. Most don't bother, think it's not worth the hassle and easier to pay up even if they believe it isn't fair so enough money is made already.
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And how did you get out of them, go into hiding?
Parking Tickets-Inadequate signage in all cases, one cancelled by council, one the council did not appeal, one won on appeal.
Congestion Charge-No credit card, TfL had cancelled cash payments.
Summonses- Both won in front of the Judge.
I ain't just a menopausals pin up boy.
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Parking Tickets-Inadequate signage in all cases, one cancelled by council, one the council did not appeal, one won on appeal.
Congestion Charge-No credit card, TfL had cancelled cash payments.
Summonses- Both won in front of the Judge.
I ain't just a menopausals pin up boy.
What are you on about?
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Floo, this is 2017.
Pin ups ain't just female any more, nor are they just youngsters anymore.
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Floo, this is 2017.
Pin ups ain't just female any more, nor are they just youngsters anymore.
Why are you on about pin ups?
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More like 'Wanted' posters, floo.
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Thread well and truly derailed. Who cares about false rape allegations!
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Thread well and truly derailed. Who cares about false rape allegations!
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/15778922.Greenwich_student_describes_two_years_of_limbo_before_rape_case_against_him_collapsed/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor
And YES I am "Goldenbroomboy"
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Sorry for going off a bit flippant, it just sort of happened.
Thanks for the new link, it was a terrible ordeal for that young man.
Like your nickname.
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If it is so obvious, how comes that I have seen off three parking tickets, one congestion charge notice, and two court summonses?
It is an attempt by plod & local councils to intimidate people into not fighting their corner. Plod issue FPN's for things like speeding.
OK - who are you going to call when you're burgled? When you are asaulted?
Who gets killed when terrorists attack in London? It sure ain't arseholes like you!
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OK - who are you going to call when you're burgled? When you are asaulted?
Who gets killed when terrorists attack in London? It sure ain't arseholes like you!
Well if it was then I would not be here now.....
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Well if it was then I would not be here now.....
You didn't answer the question. ::)
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That's a nice name Littleroses!
(Back to whatever question was asked, I could answer it for him (as could most) but that would be impolite of me.)
He ain't an a***hole!
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That's a nice name Littleroses!
(Back to whatever question was asked, I could answer it for him (as could most) but that would be impolite of me.)
He ain't an a***hole!
Thanks, :) it is better than 'floo', which is short for 'floopowder', it seemed a good idea at the time as I am a fan of the Harry Potter books and films.
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But you are still "Our Floo" ....
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But you are still "Our Floo" ....
I hope people will evenutally get used to the name change as I am really fed up with 'floo'.
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I hope people will evenutally get used to the name change as I am really fed up with 'floo'.
Does that mean no more "floo flounces"?
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You didn't answer the question. ::)
OK I will let you into a secret.
I am not really here.
And you have just entered the Twilight Zone :o
doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo
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Does that mean no more "floo flounces"?
I am sure that she will find another phrase :)
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Looking at the issue of false accusation more broadly, there is the issue of Dwayne Brooks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duwayne_Brooks
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OK I will let you into a secret.
I am not really here.
And you have just entered the Twilight Zone :o
doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo
Can you please find out if Elvis is really dead?
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Does that mean no more "floo flounces"?
I haven't flounced off for quite a while now.
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Looking at the issue of false accusation more broadly, there is the issue of Dwayne Brooks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duwayne_Brooks
I always felt sorry for Duwayne. Stephen Lawrence's parents didn't approve of him and he got a bad press at the time of the murder, poor lad.
He's done brilliantly! We could do with more like him.
I hope people will evenutally get used to the name change as I am really fed up with 'floo'.
I really like the name, it's fragrant, pretty and feminine. Hope that doesn't put you off :D.
Floo is forgotten already.
If you decide to bog off you could say that Littleroses has gone over the wall.
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I haven't flounced off for quite a while now.
I, for one, miss you having a good flounce once in a while.
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I, for one, miss you having a good flounce once in a while.
How kind! ;D
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Looking at the issue of false accusation more broadly, there is the issue of Dwayne Brooks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duwayne_Brooks
That was 34 years ago and, thankfully, a lot has changed in that regard since then!
If you have to go back that far to prove your case it is a pretty weak case.
I do not, and will never, argue that all coppers are perfect, you only have to look at the idiot in the latest two rape cases to see that is, unfortunately not true, but nor will I, as you appear to be doing, make out that they are all bent!
OK, the processes for dealing with the rotten ones is under review and knowing the new Commissioner of the Met some coppers are goig to come a cropper - but not ALL coppers!
And as with a lot of thinbgs you throw enough shit and some sticks ecven to t he inmnocent.
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He hasn't said all coppers are bent, not at all.
(The Stephen Lawrence case doesn't seem that long ago to most people who live not far away.)
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He hasn't said all coppers are bent, not at all.
(The Stephen Lawrence case doesn't seem that long ago to most people who live not far away.)
He hasn't? Then why i=use the all-inclusuive term "the Plod"?
Why not say "some policemen", or "some officers"?
No, it is just "the Plod"!
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That was 34 years ago and, thankfully, a lot has changed in that regard since then!
If you have to go back that far to prove your case it is a pretty weak case.
I do not, and will never, argue that all coppers are perfect, you only have to look at the idiot in the latest two rape cases to see that is, unfortunately not true, but nor will I, as you appear to be doing, make out that they are all bent!
OK, the processes for dealing with the rotten ones is under review and knowing the new Commissioner of the Met some coppers are goig to come a cropper - but not ALL coppers!
And as with a lot of thinbgs you throw enough shit and some sticks ecven to t he inmnocent.
Have you been on the mead? 1993 was twenty four years ago, not thirty four.
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He hasn't? Then why i=use the all-inclusuive term "the Plod"?
Why not say "some policemen", or "some officers"?
No, it is just "the Plod"!
"Plod" is a comparatively polite term compared to some that my generation use.
And since when has a Police Constable been an officer?
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"Plod" is a comparatively polite term compared to some that my generation use.
And since when has a Police Constable been an officer?
Plod is an unpleasant term! >:( I have no problem with referring to them as police officers.
Some years ago I used to be a lay visitor to the police stations checking on conditions in the custody suites. I have great respect for most of the police officers I met during that time, it isn't an easy job.
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Plod is an unpleasant term! >:( I have no problem with referring to them as police officers.
Some years ago I used to be a lay visitor to the police stations checking on conditions in the custody suites. I have great respect for most of the police officers I met during that time, it isn't an easy job.
Give it up, Littleroses - arguing this with HWB is like arguing Christianity with Alan Burns!
As I said before, he condemns all coppers but will bleat "please Mr Policeman, help me" when he's burgled or robbed.
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Give it up, Littleroses - arguing this with HWB is like arguing Christianity with Alan Burns!
As I said before, he condemns all coppers but will bleat "please Mr Policeman, help me" when he's burgled or robbed.
Yep!
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Nothing wrong with "Plod", as a collective term.
I've heard the force called really unpleasant things, not used those terms myself but they are commonly used.
"Plod", comes from Noddy stories. You can't get more benign than that.
Makes me laugh that you had an official 'lay visitor', inspecting position, LR. How were you chosen?
Owl: "...he condemns all coppers but will bleat "please Mr Policeman, help me" when he's burgled or robbed."
Nobody is condemning all coppers! They are not above scrutiny though. You are too sensitive about them because your son is a police officer.
Yes we'd all call the police if we were robbed, then wait five hours for a junior officer to turn up who does nothing.
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Nothing wrong with "Plod", as a collective term.
I've heard the force called really unpleasant things, not used those terms myself but they are commonly used.
"Plod", comes from Noddy stories. You can't get more benign than that.
Makes me laugh that you had an official 'lay visitor', inspecting position, LR. How were you chosen?
Owl: "...he condemns all coppers but will bleat "please Mr Policeman, help me" when he's burgled or robbed."
Nobody is condemning all coppers! They are not above scrutiny though. You are too sensitive about them because your son is a police officer.
Yes we'd all call the police if we were robbed, then wait five hours for a junior officer to turn up who does nothing.
Plod is not a benign term any longer, if it ever was, which I doubt, even in the Noddy books!
Why does it make you laugh that I was a lay visitor to the police stations in our area?
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Plod is not a benign term any longer, if it ever was, which I doubt, even in the Noddy books!
Why not?
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Why not?
It is used as a derogatory term, I have never heard it used in any other way.
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Derogatory? News to me.
If you want derogatory terms for the police I can supply you with a hundredweight of them, but that isn't one.
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Derogatory? News to me.
If you want derogatory terms for the police I can supply you with a hundredweight of them, but that isn't one.
We will have to agree to differ.
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Plod is not a benign term any longer, if it ever was, which I doubt, even in the Noddy books!
Why does it make you laugh that I was a lay visitor to the police stations in our area?
'Plod' is extremely benign; filth,fuzz, Babylon, pigs, 5 'O', gestapo, etc are not benign terms. (Would you have wanted a daughter of yours to marry one?)
I wonder why you were chosen as a lay visitor to police cells is all. What do you know that no-one else does (apart from believing that the inmates are 'evil scum') which qualifies you for that? It's hilarious.
Agree with Shaker.
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'Plod' is extremely benign; filth,fuzz, Babylon, pigs etc are not benign terms. Would you have wanted a daughter of yours to marry one?
I wonder why you were chosen as a lay visitor to police visitor is all. What do you know that no-one else does (apart from believing that the inmates are 'evil scum') which qualifies you for that?
Agree with Shaker.
As usual you have no idea what you are talking about where I am concerned. Suffice to say apparently my term of office as a lay visitor was appreciated.
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Did the inmates appreciate you or the Plod?
(PS - apologies if I was a bit blunt.)
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'Plod' is extremely benign;
Ever ask a copper if he feels it to be benign?
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'Plod' is extremely benign; filth,fuzz, Babylon, pigs, 5 'O', gestapo, etc are not benign terms. (Would you have wanted a daughter of yours to marry one?)
I wonder why you were chosen as a lay visitor to police visitor is all. What do you know that no-one else does (apart from believing that the inmates are 'evil scum') which qualifies you for that? It's hilarious.
Agree with Shaker.
I am reminded of a piece that I read in the Graun some years ago, about a lady whose speech to the Tory Party Conference on a motion about crime and punishment included the words "I am not too concerned about prisoners welfare. Perhaps I should be."
Apparently she was a member of a parole board.
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Ever ask a copper if he feels it to be benign?
Security Guards, Ticket Inspectors, and Doormen receive just as much, if not more, grief than does the average plod.
The difference is that the first three groups have to take it, the average plod can seriously fuck up somebodies life-and they know it.
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Exactly, but there are some decent ones. I mean, they're not all racist thugs.
As usual you have no idea what you are talking about where I am concerned. Suffice to say apparently my term of office as a lay visitor was appreciated.
You are funny LR.
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Exactly, but there are some decent ones. I mean, they're not all racist thugs.
Whoever said that plod are racist? When we were teenagers (nineteen seventies) , plod would happily harass & beat us up, the only difference was that we whites were just humiliated and/or beaten up, our black friends were not only humiliated and/or beaten up, they were prosecuted too, a la "Causing Criminal Damage to Police Property by damaging a policeman's boot with his teeth, contrary to Section 94 of the ........".
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Well you're one or two up on me, Humph. I was never beaten up by the Plod. Still time I suppose......
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In those days girls were insulted, not assaulted.
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In those days girls were insulted, not assaulted.
No, they were assaulted but that was considered just a bit of fun back then.