Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Sriram on December 25, 2017, 05:27:15 AM
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Hi everyone,
Here is a BBC article about how Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism, Christianity & Islam in their early days.
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170406-this-obscure-religion-shaped-the-west
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Christianity has frequently been used to define the identity and values of the US and Europe, as well as to contrast those values with those of a Middle Eastern ‘other’. Yet, a brief glance at an ancient religion – still being practised today – suggests that what many take for granted as wholesome Western ideals, beliefs and culture may in fact have Iranian roots.
It is generally believed by scholars that the ancient Iranian prophet Zarathustra (known in Persian as Zartosht and Greek as Zoroaster) lived sometime between 1500 and 1000 BC.
Zarathustra,......... preached that God alone – Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom – should be worshipped.
The idea of a single god was not the only essentially Zoroastrian tenet to find its way into other major faiths, most notably the ‘big three’: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The concepts of Heaven and Hell, Judgment Day and the final revelation of the world, and angels and demons all originated in the teachings of Zarathustra, as well as the later canon of Zoroastrian literature they inspired.
Even the idea of Satan is a fundamentally Zoroastrian one; in fact, the entire faith of Zoroastrianism is predicated on the struggle between God and the forces of goodness and light (represented by the Holy Spirit, Spenta Manyu) and Ahriman, who presides over the forces of darkness and evil. While man has to choose to which side he belongs, the religion teaches that ultimately, God will prevail, and even those condemned to hellfire will enjoy the blessings of Paradise (an Old Persian word).
According to scholars, many of these concepts were introduced to the Jews of Babylon upon being liberated by the Persian emperor Cyrus the Great. They trickled into mainstream Jewish thought, and figures like Beelzebub emerged. And after Persia’s conquests of Greek lands during the heyday of the Achaemenid Empire, Greek philosophy took a different course. The Greeks had previously believed humans had little agency, and that their fates were at the mercy of their many gods, who often acted according to whim and fancy. After their acquaintance with Iranian religion and philosophy, however, they began to feel more as if they were the masters of their destinies, and that their decisions were in their own hands.
Centuries before Dante’s Divine Comedy, the Book of Arda Viraf described in vivid detail a journey to Heaven and Hell. Could Dante have possibly heard about the cosmic Zoroastrian traveller’s report, which assumed its final form around the 10th Century AD? The similarity of the two works is uncanny,....
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The article does not mention that when Islam came into Persia, many Zoroastrians fled persecution and landed in India. They were accepted and allowed to set up their own religious community. They are known as the Parsis.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Thanks for that Sririam.
You said:- ...a brief glance at an ancient religion – still being practised today – suggests that what many take for
granted as wholesome Western ideals, beliefs and culture may in fact have Iranian roots.
Yes I'm well aware of it, my mum was the first to tell me about Zoroastrianism, hope you get some more response.
I had a greeting yesterday from a Parsi friend.
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Sriram
just goes to show , then as now, some people will believe anything they are told . Sad really!
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Sriram
just goes to show , then as now, some people will believe anything they are told . Sad really!
Hi Walter,
Read along with the other thread on 'Religions have succeeded', you will find that religions have had a very important role in civilizing us, bringing us together and in promoting all those values that we today take for granted.
Religious beliefs are just models of the world nothing more. They are models of those aspects that are most relevant to us.....the subjective world of experiences, society, love, morality, Life and Death. Maybe these models are not entirely correct just as the models in Science are not entirely correct. But it is nevertheless important that people have some models of the world.
It is a fact that we are today no closer to a more reliable model of the world than those which religions present. I don't mean the models of the objective external world but those of the subjective world.....of relationships, morality, life and death.
For thousands of years, millions/billions of people have held beliefs that have guided them and provided them with hope, meaning and purpose. There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct.
Don't you think it is possible that you are missing something?!
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This is really little more than an observation.
As I have mentioned before, I own property in SW France. In the 12th century, there was a large Cathar population in my part of France - "Cathar Country" was not just limited to Languedoc, as some tourist information may imply. As a consequence, I have occasionally attempted to learn something about the Cathars.
Anyway, my observation is that Catharism and related belief systems ( eg ?Bogamils etc) appear - to me - to be some kind of fusion between Christianity and Zoroastrianism. Am I on the right track?
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This is really little more than an observation.
As I have mentioned before, I own property in SW France. In the 12th century, there was a large Cathar population in my part of France - "Cathar Country" was not just limited to Languedoc, as some tourist information may imply. As a consequence, I have occasionally attempted to learn something about the Cathars.
Anyway, my observation is that Catharism and related belief systems ( eg ?Bogamils etc) appear - to me - to be some kind of fusion between Christianity and Zoroastrianism. Am I on the right track?
So...what's the problem with an observation?! If we find that certain ideas and beliefs have been around in various parts of the world...it is only meaningful to find out how they could have influenced one another.
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Hi Walter,
Read along with the other thread on 'Religions have succeeded', you will find that religions have had a very important role in civilizing us, bringing us together and in promoting all those values that we today take for granted.
Religious beliefs are just models of the world nothing more. They are models of those aspects that are most relevant to us.....the subjective world of experiences, society, love, morality, Life and Death. Maybe these models are not entirely correct just as the models in Science are not entirely correct. But it is nevertheless important that people have some models of the world.
It is a fact that we are today no closer to a more reliable model of the world than those which religions present. I don't mean the models of the objective external world but those of the subjective world.....of relationships, morality, life and death.
For thousands of years, millions/billions of people have held beliefs that have guided them and provided them with hope, meaning and purpose. There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct.
Don't you think it is possible that you are missing something?!
yes I am missing something , all the bollocks !
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Hi Walter,
Read along with the other thread on 'Religions have succeeded', you will find that religions have had a very important role in civilizing us, bringing us together and in promoting all those values that we today take for granted.
Religious beliefs are just models of the world nothing more. They are models of those aspects that are most relevant to us.....the subjective world of experiences, society, love, morality, Life and Death. Maybe these models are not entirely correct just as the models in Science are not entirely correct. But it is nevertheless important that people have some models of the world.
It is a fact that we are today no closer to a more reliable model of the world than those which religions present. I don't mean the models of the objective external world but those of the subjective world.....of relationships, morality, life and death.
For thousands of years, millions/billions of people have held beliefs that have guided them and provided them with hope, meaning and purpose. There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct.
Don't you think it is possible that you are missing something?!
I can't see that there is any reason why you shouldn't be free to have any of these beliefs and you say, 'There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct', yet as I understand it, you have a form of belief that takes on board as a part of your beliefs, you believe in a figure that's human in form other than its head that seems to have been borrowed the from an Elephant, not even the normal kind of Elephant head, the head of a bright blue Elephant.
Then having said the above you then go on to indicate someone is missing something and yet it appears you believe in blue Elephant headed deities?
Regards ippy
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I can't see that there is any reason why you shouldn't be free to have any of these beliefs and you say, 'There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct', yet as I understand it, you have a form of belief that takes on board as a part of your beliefs, you believe in a figure that's human in form other than its head that seems to have been borrowed the from an Elephant, not even the normal kind of Elephant head, the head of a bright blue Elephant.
Then having said the above you then go on to indicate someone is missing something and yet it appears you believe in blue Elephant headed deities?
Regards ippy
LOL! The old wind up...eh?!
ippy...what do you know about what I believe anyway?!
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LOL! The old wind up...eh?!
ippy...what do you know about what I believe anyway?!
If you look at the post of mine you are referring to you must have noticed that I made a point of not nailing you down to a specific belief, it does look to me you may have missed this?
Regards ippy
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If you look at the post of mine you are referring to you must have noticed that I made a point of not nailing you down to a specific belief, it does look to me you may have missed this?
Regards ippy
Never mind ippy. Hinduism is too vast and complex to be explained in this specific context. I have done it many times on this forum in the past....but not now. Maybe some other time.
If you really want you could check out my article here....
https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/hinduismaaaa/
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Never mind ippy. Hinduism is too vast and complex to be explained in this specific context. I have done it many times on this forum in the past....but not now. Maybe some other time.
If you really want you could check out my article here....
https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/hinduismaaaa/
Thanks for the link but I think I would find Hinduism about as interesting as any of the other religions would be to me, I'm am about as a dyed in the wool non-religious person as you're ever likely to get, it's all man made nonsense to me, about as useful horoscopes where identical twins don't have identical lives.
I'd like to visit India the only thing that puts me off a bit is there seems to be about twenty thousand people to the square inch whenever I see any films about your otherwise a beauty of a country.
Regards ippy
P S Are you a blue Elephant man or not?
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Thanks for the link but I think I would find Hinduism about as interesting as any of the other religions would be to me, I'm am about as a dyed in the wool non-religious person as you're ever likely to get, it's all man made nonsense to me, about as useful horoscopes where identical twins don't have identical lives.
I'd like to visit India the only thing that puts me off a bit is there seems to be about twenty thousand people to the square inch whenever I see any films about your otherwise a beauty of a country.
Regards ippy
P S Are you a blue Elephant man or not?
You don't have to be a religious person to read and understand religions. It might give you a different perspective on people. Adds to ones wisdom... always.
About the Elephant God...keep wondering. ;)
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You don't have to be a religious person to read and understand religions. It might give you a different perspective on people. Adds to ones wisdom... always.
About the Elephant God...keep wondering. ;)
The only interest I have in religions is where it draws me to sites like this forum because it fascinates me how seriously people in general take up something that is, to me, so obviously man made.
All of the various beliefs have this inbuilt constituent part, a kind of mantra, whereby they perpetuate themselves by their method of teaching in such a way that each generation then feels obliged to pass on their own indoctrination directing them to make sure they also indoctrinate the next generation, to indoctrinate the next and on and on, very much in the way psychology students are given example of the Mongolian horseman culture, it perpetuates in a very similar way.
Therefore you could look at how altruistic and well meaning we non-religious are, where we are doing our best to break the circle for you religious believers to help and allow you to then progress on into the real world, I'll bet you hadn't realised how altruistic our intentions are?
I suppose you could look at our works as though we're missionaries helping to guide you lot away from your bronze age, and even earlier in some cases, magical mystical and superstition based religious nonsense.
Regards ippy
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The only interest I have in religions is where it draws me to sites like this forum because it fascinates me how seriously people in general take up something that is, to me, so obviously man made.
All of the various beliefs have this inbuilt constituent part, a kind of mantra, whereby they perpetuate themselves by their method of teaching in such a way that each generation then feels obliged to pass on their own indoctrination directing them to make sure they also indoctrinate the next generation, to indoctrinate the next and on and on, very much in the way psychology students are given example of the Mongolian horseman culture, it perpetuates in a very similar way.
Therefore you could look at how altruistic and well meaning we non-religious are, where we are doing our best to break the circle for you religious believers to help and allow you to then progress on into the real world, I'll bet you hadn't realised how altruistic our intentions are?
I suppose you could look at our works as though we're missionaries helping to guide you lot away from your bronze age, and even earlier in some cases, magical mystical and superstition based religious nonsense.
Regards ippy
Ooh! So kind of you guys...I am sure!!! :D
On the other hand we are trying to save your souls and instill some wisdom so that you can go to higher worlds. ;)
We all seem to be so kind to each other. Full of love and goodwill!!!
Thanks to religious teachings all these centuries.....!!
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So...what's the problem with an observation?! If we find that certain ideas and beliefs have been around in various parts of the world...it is only meaningful to find out how they could have influenced one another.
Well, thank you for your reply, Sriram. I was hoping to receive some insightful reply which - might - provide me with opportunities for appropriate reading. But I guess that your original post just contained an article of the "my, fancy that!" genre which you saw as suitable for cutting and pasting.
I take it that you do not have any real insight into the influences of Zoroastrianism on 11th and 12th century Christian movements.
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Well, thank you for your reply, Sriram. I was hoping to receive some insightful reply which - might - provide me with opportunities for appropriate reading. But I guess that your original post just contained an article of the "my, fancy that!" genre which you saw as suitable for cutting and pasting.
I take it that you do not have any real insight into the influences of Zoroastrianism on 11th and 12th century Christian movements.
No..I do not have.
It is an article I read and posted for your info. HH....I cannot and will not take up independent research on every article that I read. I thought that would be obvious.
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This thread has led me to explore - I didn't sleep much last night and found myself reading about the Transcendentalists & the influence of the Vedic period, the Romantics, philosophy of the enlightenment (and less pleasant things leading on from that). Then at about 5am I started on the many and various movements within Judaism, how they developed, the demographics and individual customs. After which I went to bed and dreamed!
Giving it a bit of a rest now but thanks, Sririam.
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Very interesting, Sriram
Even the idea of Satan is a fundamentally Zoroastrian one; in fact, the entire faith of Zoroastrianism is predicated on the struggle between God and the forces of goodness and light (represented by the Holy Spirit, Spenta Manyu) and Ahriman, who presides over the forces of darkness and evil. While man has to choose to which side he belongs, the religion teaches that ultimately, God will prevail, and even those condemned to hellfire will enjoy the blessings of Paradise (an Old Persian word).
The links between Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic faiths seem fairly clear, though the percolation of a really powerful demonic force into them took quite some time. Beelzebub in Judaism is little more than a pantomime demon, with few powers accredited to him against the God of Isaiah, who is supposed to be all in all. It was of course one of the writers of the Book of Isaiah who recorded the liberation of the Jews of Babylon by Cyrus the Great - whom the writer in question refers to as "MESSIAH" (Jesus is not the only one, you see! :) The idea of the Jews having taken on some of the Persian ideas seems perfectly reasonable in the circumstances.
I think Ahriman is considered a more powerful force than the Christian devil - there's supposed to be quite a powerful old tussle going on between the forces of light and darkness in Zoroastrianism, even if good wins hands down in the end. Christianity seems to suggest that the devil is only permitted to exist by God because that allows humans to make their moral choices (those that believe in a devil at all, that is). So Christianity is not quite so dualistic.
Except in the following text:
44] You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
John 8
That looks like a direct borrowing from the Persian religion - no sense of Satan having been a fallen angel at all.
I find it all interesting, but have no belief in any of these things.
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No..I do not have.
It is an article I read and posted for your info. HH....I cannot and will not take up independent research on every article that I read. I thought that would be obvious.
I think that Catharism continued the tradition of dualism implicit in the Gnostic gospels, and to some extent John's gospel as I noted above. These almost certainly were influenced by Zoroastrianism.
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I find it all interesting, but have no belief in any of these things.
These are just different ways of coming to terms with the good and evil in us. Just models of our subjective nature. Just allegories. We don't have to take them literally.
In Hinduism for example...we have no absolute evil at all. We believe that we all were born earlier as animals and have progressively developed spiritually to become humans. Even as humans we develop further from being selfish people to become more saintly. We have retained parts of the animal nature within us which is what we need to eradicate progressively.
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Ooh! So kind of you guys...I am sure!!! :D
On the other hand we are trying to save your souls and instill some wisdom so that you can go to higher worlds. ;)
We all seem to be so kind to each other. Full of love and goodwill!!!
Thanks to religious teachings all these centuries.....!!
Good to see my post was taken as intended Sriram, only the thing is, in reply to where you have put: 'Thanks to religious teachings all these centuries.....!!, I'm not so sure how until recent times in our history, when religious belief and office was the only game in town, makes it necessary for me to ask, how then were the realists among us supposed to avoid the religious fingers that were present in every pie?
I can't be sharing any of your imaginary friends with you any time Sriram, no matter how high you like to think they are, however our differences don't/shouldn't make us enemies.
Kind regards ippy
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Nice!
I also read about Durga......now that is a story I would love to see captured on the big screen.
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Good to see my post was taken as intended Sriram, only the thing is, in reply to where you have put: 'Thanks to religious teachings all these centuries.....!!, I'm not so sure how until recent times in our history, when religious belief and office was the only game in town, makes it necessary for me to ask, how then were the realists among us supposed to avoid the religious fingers that were present in every pie?
I can't be sharing any of your imaginary friends with you any time Sriram, no matter how high you like to think they are, however our differences don't/shouldn't make us enemies.
Kind regards ippy
Of course our differences should not make us enemies! I agree with that absolutely. I wouldn't even be posting here (20 years now) if not.
However, studying religions (all religions) and understanding how they developed and how they have contributed positively to society is very important. Just because our own personal beliefs are at variance with some of the religions does not mean we can ignore them entirely....and wish they would go away.
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Of course our differences should not make us enemies! I agree with that absolutely. I wouldn't even be posting here (20 years now) if not.
However, studying religions (all religions) and understanding how they developed and how they have contributed positively to society is very important. Just because our own personal beliefs are at variance with some of the religions does not mean we can ignore them entirely....and wish they would go away.
I'd be quite happy to see religions go away to somewhere in a similar way that the writings of Homer are taken nowadays, a rather quaint collection of old stories that don't need to be taken that seriously and neither can I see any harm in reference to religions within our young children's history lessons just so that we're able to see how things used to be.
As you can see we differ on our opinions about this subject, it's just that surly when even you must recognise we are now in the 21 st century and should be putting magical, mystical and old superstitious beliefs to bed now, it's about time.
Regards ippy
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I'd be quite happy to see religions go away to somewhere in a similar way that the writings of Homer are taken nowadays, a rather quaint collection of old stories that don't need to be taken that seriously and neither can I see any harm in reference to religions within our young children's history lessons just so that we're able to see how things used to be.
As you can see we differ on our opinions about this subject, it's just that surly when even you must recognise we are now in the 21 st century and should be putting magical, mystical and old superstitious beliefs to bed now, it's about time.
Regards ippy
What has the 21st century got to do with it?! There is no rule that in the 21st century people cannot believe in God or afterlife. That is a old school early 20th century idea. 'Science has now come in folks...all religious ideas out'!!
What will happen in the 22nd century then...does anyone know?
Fortunately or otherwise, these things do not follow a linear progression. They are cyclical. Most ideas tend to come back in a slightly different way.
What do you mean by magic? Just because we can't explain something does it mean it is magic? Some people may think of Dark Matter, Dark Energy and Parallel Universes as magic. Are they?
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What has the 21st century got to do with it?! There is no rule that in the 21st century people cannot believe in God or afterlife. That is a old school early 20th century idea. 'Science has now come in folks...all religious ideas out'!!
What will happen in the 22nd century then...does anyone know?
Fortunately or otherwise, these things do not follow a linear progression. They are cyclical. Most ideas tend to come back in a slightly different way.
What do you mean by magic? Just because we can't explain something does it mean it is magic? Some people may think of Dark Matter, Dark Energy and Parallel Universes as magic. Are they?
Of course you'll always get hangers on but shouldn't we be just that little more forward thinking people by now, the 21 st century, and putting the large amount of knowledge we've accumulated over the many years to good use, rather than believing in as I said magical, mystical and superstition based backwood old stories that are still taken on by so many without reference to any kind of evidential base that could or would support them.
I wont bother with your reference to:'What will happen in the 22nd century then...does anyone know'?
You then go on to say: 'Fortunately or otherwise, these things do not follow a linear progression. They are cyclical. Most ideas tend to come back in a slightly different way.
Like most ideas that don't have an evidential base, Zeus has gone so has Apollo, Thor, Odin and so many others, where have they gone? What was so special about them? I suppose they, your lot of gods, wont be joining the others in time whoever or whatever they might be or are supposed to represent?
Dark Matter is only a name for something that's based on the evidence of mathematical calculations to be there somewhere, where's the magic in that? You tell me magic's more your subject, not mine.
Regards ippy
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Of course you'll always get hangers on but shouldn't we be just that little more forward thinking people by now, the 21 st century, and putting the large amount of knowledge we've accumulated over the many years to good use, rather than believing in as I said magical, mystical and superstition based backwood old stories that are still taken on by so many without reference to any kind of evidential base that could or would support them.
I wont bother with your reference to:'What will happen in the 22nd century then...does anyone know'?
You then go on to say: 'Fortunately or otherwise, these things do not follow a linear progression. They are cyclical. Most ideas tend to come back in a slightly different way.
Like most ideas that don't have an evidential base, Zeus has gone so has Apollo, Thor, Odin and so many others, where have they gone? What was so special about them? I suppose they, your lot of gods, wont be joining the others in time whoever or whatever they might be or are supposed to represent?
Dark Matter is only a name for something that's based on the evidence of mathematical calculations to be there somewhere, where's the magic in that? You tell me magic's more your subject, not mine.
Regards ippy
I was asking you about your views on the 22nd century since you expect the 21st century to be in a certain way.
In the 1960's-70's when people were shocked with women wearing bikinis (mainly in the west...with a couple of fashion models in India) the reaction was... 'It's the 20th century for heaven's sake!'. That set many bright eyed people imagining that in the 21 st century women would be going around in the buff. ::)
But today what do we see? Lots of burkas even in London and New York. :D
My point is that, the 21st century does not represent anything special. People don't necessarily have to subscribe to all the ideas that are extrapolated based on certain ideas of the past. In most cases, ideas evolve as a mix of the old and the new. And this mix could be different in different regions. In does not move in a linear well defined manner.
Zeus and Apollo are just images and labels that represented certain mystical forces. Today it is Jehovah or Allah or Shiva. Just because the images changed does not mean the essence is any different. The new images represent the same forces as in ancient times.
Dark Matter is not 'somewhere'. It is five times more abundant than normal matter and tons of it is probably sitting on your lap at this moment. Yet you have no clue about it. That is magic. Dark Energy is not understood and cannot even be sensed with our best instruments.....yet it is said to be pushing galaxies further away at an increasing rate. That is magic.
Some people might like to call Dark Energy...'God's unseen hand'. So what? That's just another way of looking at the same phenomenon.
Anything that we don't understand we call magic. Once it is understood it is normal.
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I was asking you about your views on the 22nd century since you expect the 21st century to be in a certain way.
In the 1960's-70's when people were shocked with women wearing bikinis (mainly in the west...with a couple of fashion models in India) the reaction was... 'It's the 20th century for heaven's sake!'. That set many bright eyed people imagining that in the 21 st century women would be going around in the buff. ::)
But today what do we see? Lots of burkas even in London and New York. :D
My point is that, the 21st century does not represent anything special. People don't necessarily have to subscribe to all the ideas that are extrapolated based on certain ideas of the past. In most cases, ideas evolve as a mix of the old and the new. And this mix could be different in different regions. In does not move in a linear well defined manner.
Zeus and Apollo are just images and labels that represented certain mystical forces. Today it is Jehovah or Allah or Shiva. Just because the images changed does not mean the essence is any different. The new images represent the same forces as in ancient times.
Dark Matter is not 'somewhere'. It is five times more abundant than normal matter and tons of it is probably sitting on your lap at this moment. Yet you have no clue about it. That is magic. Dark Energy is not understood and cannot even be sensed with our best instruments.....yet it is said to be pushing galaxies further away at an increasing rate. That is magic.
Some people might like to call Dark Energy...'God's unseen hand'. So what? That's just another way of looking at the same phenomenon.
Anything that we don't understand we call magic. Once it is understood it is normal.
Thank you for your reply but before I begin, I'm sure we all have our own colloquialisms, and no critique intended of the way you express yourself as an Indian, but the effect of the mere distance between England & India makes this even more likely to occur.
We have some contributors to the forum that live here on the same island as I do and I can only assume their ways of expressing themselves differs considerably from mine, one contributor in particular here I've given up on because even on the simplest of matters unless your answer to this person resembles a multi page thesis it is always misunderstood, without fail, and even then this person manages to make out there is some other obscure way misunderstanding, usually semantics.
Now having hopefully having expressed that lot and got it out of the way, you may be able to see where I'm coming from.
Dark matter there's no need to discuss it, it is evidenced based on mathematical calculations that' all that's needed, any more that's needed to be known for the purposes of our exchange about dark matter can be looked up at leisure at another time, end of reference to dark matter, end of this part of discussion, we can both read?
The 22 nd century who knows? I don't.
The 21 st century science closes many gaps sometimes every day, as in god of the gaps, there's no sign of this slowing down, this effect does make the old superstition based, magical and mystical look more and more foolish as this process continues and shows signs of moving even more rapidly as time goes on so provided there are no planet wide mega disasters there is every sign of this progress going on into the 22 nd century.
You said in your post: 'The new images represent the same forces as in ancient times', What forces and where is there any evidence to confirm or support the idea that there ever was any of this particular kind of energy you are referring to? Whatever it is?
You have also said: 'Anything that we don't understand we call magic, once it is understood it is normal', I wondered why you've repeated back to me the very thing I was expressing to you only I was expressing this using different words to the ones you have used?
Regards ippy
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Ok....I think we can end this discussion here.
Are you aware that there is a difference between Spirituality and religion?!
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Ok....I think we can end this discussion here.
Are you aware that there is a difference between Spirituality and religion?!
Most religionists of whatever way the chose to title their belief or beliefs, they seem to me to think there is a Mr Magic involved somewhere within the ideas they have about spirituality, most, if not all non-religious people don't go for the Mr Magic element within their ideas about spirituality.
We all have spiritual feelings, such as a first born of our own, etc, I don't see any kind of magical element, I assume others do and I also assume we both think the others that don't share our individual views are wrong.
I wasn't looking to shut you up it's just that to date no one has managed to come up with any incontrovertible evidence that would confirm any single element of either the magical, mystical or the superstition based parts of their, I'm sure, sincerely held beliefs.
I would think to anyone that has any sort of reasonably well functioning brain should have great difficulty dismissing this rather obvious lack of any kind of viable evidence that could possibly support these religious beliefs they have and for me it begs the question why go for anything that has no evidential base or reason to go for it in the first place?
People obviously do go for these unsupported religious ideas en bulk, all I can think is that it demonstrates the power of very young childhood indoctrination, and those successfully indoctrinated don't even realise they have been, none of these rather extraordinary religious ideas appear, to me, as anything other than obviously man made stories and how sad it is so many are taken in by them.
Yes it's possible these stories could be, surprisingly, established as facts, what a worldwide media event, but seriously coming back down to the real world we all live in together Sriram, it's very unlikely to ever happen, even if you don't want to admit this, it surly must have occurred to you?
Kind regards ippy
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I wasn't looking to shut you up it's just that to date no one has managed to come up with any incontrovertible evidence that would confirm any single element of either the magical, mystical or the superstition based parts of their, I'm sure, sincerely held beliefs.
That's probably why Sriram tries to distinguish between religion and spirituality. Religion tends to be organised about a set of beliefs which are impressed upon believers. Spirituality tends to be about an inner path to self awareness. With the former there is a tendency to follow one particular doctrine as if it were applicable to all. With the latter there is a tendency to try many ways or paths as if each individual had to find their own path. India perhaps is more geared up to the latter which is why there are many 'gods' and many schools of thought. You wont find incontrovertible evidence for the former which is why it is called a belief not truth. With the latter you have to find your own 'evidence' or 'truth', nobody can find it for you. It's more about first hand 'knowing' rather than gathering second hand information.
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Absolutely ekim! On the button. :)
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That's probably why Sriram tries to distinguish between religion and spirituality. Religion tends to be organised about a set of beliefs which are impressed upon believers. Spirituality tends to be about an inner path to self awareness. With the former there is a tendency to follow one particular doctrine as if it were applicable to all. With the latter there is a tendency to try many ways or paths as if each individual had to find their own path. India perhaps is more geared up to the latter which is why there are many 'gods' and many schools of thought. You wont find incontrovertible evidence for the former which is why it is called a belief not truth. With the latter you have to find your own 'evidence' or 'truth', nobody can find it for you. It's more about first hand 'knowing' rather than gathering second hand information.
Isn't that, the above, exactly what I did express, only in my own terms without using as much detail ekim, religious believers are more inclined to assume spirituality as you mention as a pathway on religion based journey on the whole, I assumed that would be obvious, taken for wrote.
And then where mostly the non-religious, don't see anything magical, mystical or superstition based about spiritual feelings, other than, I must admit, spiritual feelings sometimes feel as though they are a magic of some kind?
I don't think I was missing anything, please enlighten me?
I do get the impression that on this forum unless the bleeding obvious is stated every time, in full, anyone writes a post.
There's seems to be a large section of contributors have this need to bolster their writings out to unnecessarily large volumes instead of using their loaf.
Regards ippy
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Isn't that, the above, exactly what I did express, only in my own terms without using as much detail ekim, religious believers are more inclined to assume spirituality as you mention as a pathway on religion based journey on the whole, I assumed that would be obvious, taken for wrote.
And then where mostly the non-religious, don't see anything magical, mystical or superstition based about spiritual feelings, other than, I must admit, spiritual feelings sometimes feel as though they are a magic of some kind?
I don't think I was missing anything, please enlighten me?
I do get the impression that on this forum unless the bleeding obvious is stated every time, in full, anyone writes a post.
There's seems to be a large section of contributors have this need to bolster their writings out to unnecessarily large volumes instead of using their loaf.
Regards ippy
If you think that my comments were in line with what you have said, then fine, and what I said was either superfluous or possibly amplified what you said. I suspect that with Sriram's past encounters with this site, when he sees words like Mr Magic, magic and superstition then he sees the writer as likely to just want to ridicule rather than enter into discussion. Sriram comes from a society where a variety of 'spiritual' schools of thought have been allowed to proliferate without any serious fear of persecution and this possibly allows him to better see similarities within the varieties of religious scriptures, hence the current topic.
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Sriram you will see that I have responded to ekim and I will make some adjustments to my previous post to you
Most religionists of whatever way they chose to title their belief or beliefs, they seem to me to think there is something akin to, in my non-religious mind, that magic is involved somewhere within the ideas they have about spirituality, most, if not all non-religious people don't go for any attempt to introduce a religious believer's ideas as an element within their ideas about spirituality.
We all have spiritual feelings, such as a first born of our own, etc, I don't see any kind of significantly other worldly element, I assume others do and I also assume we both think the others that don't share our individual views are wrong.
I wasn't looking to shut you up it's just that to date no one has managed to come up with any incontrovertible evidence that would confirm any single element of either, of my ideas of, these ideas that look magical, mystical or superstition based to me, as parts of their, I'm sure, sincerely held beliefs.
I would think to anyone that has any sort of reasonably well functioning brain should have great difficulty dismissing this rather obvious lack of any kind of viable evidence that could possibly support these religious beliefs they have and for me it begs the question why go for anything that has no evidential base or reason to go for it in the first place? Having said the above wouldn't it be better to establish that we're not discussing fictional happenings in the O P before continuing?
People obviously do go for these unsupported beliefs/ideas en bulk, all I can think is that it demonstrates the power of very young childhood indoctrination, and those successfully indoctrinated don't even realise they have been, none off these ideas that look extraordinary to me, they look so obviously, to me, man made groups of stories and it seems to be very sad, as it looks to me, that so many are taken in by them.
Yes it's possible these stories could be, surprisingly, established as facts, what a worldwide media event that would be, but seriously coming back down to the real world we all live in together Sriram, it's very unlikely to ever happen, even if you don't want to admit this, it surly must have occurred to you?
I've tried to adjust my writings to you but the trouble is I can only see most of the various facets of any of these beliefs as man made stories, this is my honest view, I put them over to you as just another bunch of postings I'm not trying to bash you over the head steal your money or your wife, nor would I ever try, but try as hard as I can I can't share these religious ideas with you as anything more than man made fiction.
Regards ippy
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Sriram you will see that I have responded to ekim and I will make some adjustments to my previous post to you
Most religionists of whatever way they chose to title their belief or beliefs, they seem to me to think there is something akin to, in my non-religious mind, that magic is involved somewhere within the ideas they have about spirituality, most, if not all non-religious people don't go for any attempt to introduce a religious believer's ideas as an element within their ideas about spirituality.
We all have spiritual feelings, such as a first born of our own, etc, I don't see any kind of significantly other worldly element, I assume others do and I also assume we both think the others that don't share our individual views are wrong.
I wasn't looking to shut you up it's just that to date no one has managed to come up with any incontrovertible evidence that would confirm any single element of either, of my ideas of, these ideas that look magical, mystical or superstition based to me, as parts of their, I'm sure, sincerely held beliefs.
I would think to anyone that has any sort of reasonably well functioning brain should have great difficulty dismissing this rather obvious lack of any kind of viable evidence that could possibly support these religious beliefs they have and for me it begs the question why go for anything that has no evidential base or reason to go for it in the first place? Having said the above wouldn't it be better to establish that we're not discussing fictional happenings in the O P before continuing?
People obviously do go for these unsupported beliefs/ideas en bulk, all I can think is that it demonstrates the power of very young childhood indoctrination, and those successfully indoctrinated don't even realise they have been, none off these ideas that look extraordinary to me, they look so obviously, to me, man made groups of stories and it seems to be very sad, as it looks to me, that so many are taken in by them.
Yes it's possible these stories could be, surprisingly, established as facts, what a worldwide media event that would be, but seriously coming back down to the real world we all live in together Sriram, it's very unlikely to ever happen, even if you don't want to admit this, it surly must have occurred to you?
I've tried to adjust my writings to you but the trouble is I can only see most of the various facets of any of these beliefs as man made stories, this is my honest view, I put them over to you as just another bunch of postings I'm not trying to bash you over the head steal your money or your wife, nor would I ever try, but try as hard as I can I can't share these religious ideas with you as anything more than man made fiction.
Regards ippy
Your basic point seems to be about proof. Spirituality and religion are about experiences....not about the objective external world.
If you think that you can sit down in your arm chair and figure out the experiences of people across the world and come to rational conclusions about them based on your old science view of experiences being just brain generated chemical reactions...you are wrong!
I have said many times that it is like trying to prove the existence of Light to a stubborn born blind person. It just can't be done even though Light is everywhere around him.
About Spirituality and how it is different from religion....I have written about that many times...but maybe I'll start a separate thread on that once again. (ekim has given a very nice concise para on that above).
Cheers.
Sriram
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Your basic point seems to be about proof. Spirituality and religion are about experiences....not about the objective external world.
If you think that you can sit down in your arm chair and figure out the experiences of people across the world and come to rational conclusions about them based on your old science view of experiences being just brain generated chemical reactions...you are wrong!
I have said many times that it is like trying to prove the existence of Light to a stubborn born blind person. It just can't be done even though Light is everywhere around him.
About Spirituality and how it is different from religion....I have written about that many times...but maybe I'll start a separate thread on that once again. (ekim has given a very nice concise para on that above).
Cheers.
Sriram
I considerably differ from you Sriram, where the characters in the old writings don't transmit to me any hint to make me think there is anything more to them, other than they are man's early attempts to make sense out of a very complicated world, it isn't a case of me being wilfully blind, I don't see these ancient collections of quaint old stories to be anything more than that, quaint old stories, in fact I think my interpenetration of them is on the whole is quite realistic, when compared to the average religionists point of view.
The only mystery they convey to me is why do modern people still read so much into them, it seems to me they are so obviously man made stories, so much so I don't see any valid reason to research into them any further, other than a historical interest in the development of mankind, of course that'll always be worthwhile, other than that I really can't see why people take this stuff so seriously but not, as I have said before not a wilful deafness.
Spirituality isn't the preserve of religious believers and it is a fact, not just a point of view, that there is no evidence that there is anything more to spirituality than that is presented before you, the things you see hear and feel within oneself, I'll leave the conjecture to others.
I only mention the evidence because of the lack of it, there isn't enough evidence for me to want to even begin to take religions any more seriously than I have already conveyed to you.
Regards ippy
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I considerably differ from you Sriram, where the characters in the old writings don't transmit to me any hint to make me think there is anything more to them, other than they are man's early attempts to make sense out of a very complicated world, it isn't a case of me being wilfully blind, I don't see these ancient collections of quaint old stories to be anything more than that, quaint old stories, in fact I think my interpenetration of them is on the whole is quite realistic, when compared to the average religionists point of view.
The only mystery they convey to me is why do modern people still read so much into them, it seems to me they are so obviously man made stories, so much so I don't see any valid reason to research into them any further, other than a historical interest in the development of mankind, of course that'll always be worthwhile, other than that I really can't see why people take this stuff so seriously but not, as I have said before not a wilful deafness.
Spirituality isn't the preserve of religious believers and it is a fact, not just a point of view, that there is no evidence that there is anything more to spirituality than that is presented before you, the things you see hear and feel within oneself, I'll leave the conjecture to others.
I only mention the evidence because of the lack of it, there isn't enough evidence for me to want to even begin to take religions any more seriously than I have already conveyed to you.
Regards ippy
The first part of your reply does not seem to have anything to do with what I said in my post.
As far as Spirituality is concerned I have given my views in the other thread.
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The first part of your reply does not seem to have anything to do with what I said in my post.
As far as Spirituality is concerned I have given my views in the other thread.
I'm pretty sure the first part of my post set down the flavour/direction of my reply to you.
Yes I got that about your views on spirituality but find it difficult to see where you think there's anything that might have supported such a standpoint, I'm also pretty certain there isn't anything that you would be readily able to find, surly this should make you have some serious thoughts about these views of yours on spirituality?
Regards ippy.
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Ok...thanks ippy. :)
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JAI SRI GANESH !?!??!?!!?!?!?!?!?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYwaacNvfdQ
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYwaacNvfdQ
Foreign Office material, what a load of old tosh.
Regards ippy
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYwaacNvfdQ
What has this to with Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions?
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Absolutely nothing HH, I was merely joining in with trippymonkey - in the hope that he would explain what his post had to do with the Abrahamic religions. Sorry, was being flip.
JAI SRI GANESH !?!??!?!!?!?!?!?!?
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WELLL You obviously haven't been 'listening' ?!?!? HA HA