Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Humph Warden Bennett on February 18, 2018, 09:57:23 AM
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From the Beeb
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-43096970
This does strike me as being OTT. Most of this article refers to inappropriate behaviour, and it is my understanding that most allegations against driving instructors involve bullying, rather than anything else. Also driving schools will happily change instructors on request so as to keep a customer. If you read an earlier article, it refers to one concerned parent.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41751368
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Surely the same rules should apply as in any student teacher relationship? A teacher having sexual relations with one of their seventeen year old pupils is likely to get fired. Why not apply the same standards here?
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A driving school student is a paying customer, quite unlike a school pupil.
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Surely the same rules should apply as in any student teacher relationship? A teacher having sexual relations with one of their seventeen year old pupils is likely to get fired. Why not apply the same standards here?
I agree.
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A driving school student is a paying customer, quite unlike a school pupil.
Don't see how that changes things.
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Don't see how that changes things.
A driving school pupil is there because s/he wants to be there, not because s/he has to be there by law, and is a customer paying for a service. What about a guitar teacher?
We are not talking about inappropriate behaviour, we are talking consensual relationships. Seventeen year olds are allowed to have consensual relationships.
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It is more than likely it is the parents who are paying for their 17 year old offspring to have driving lessons.
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A driving school student is a paying customer, quite unlike a school pupil.
So you are saying that abusing a position of authority to gain sexual favours is acceptable if the victim is paying for your services.
What about students in independent schools? What about students at universities? They pay. Universities also have rules against student teacher relationships.
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So you are saying that abusing a position of authority to gain sexual favours is acceptable if the victim is paying for your services.
I am not saying that at all! I am saying that it is wrong to threaten driving instructors with the sack if they have a consensual relationship. As I mentioned in my OP the article is referring to inappropriate behaviour rather than the subject matter of the headline.
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I am not saying that at all! I am saying that it is wrong to threaten driving instructors with the sack if they have a consensual relationship. As I mentioned in my OP the article is referring to inappropriate behaviour rather than the subject matter of the headline.
When a person is in a position of authority, as when teaching someone to drive, it is wrong to have a sexual relationanship with them, consensual or otherwise. This is especially true if they are teaching a 17 year old to drive, as the instructor is likely to be a good few years older than the youngster.
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It's certainly unprofessional of the instructors to make any sort of advances towards young pupils even if only by innuendo. Nothing new about it though! Happened a lot when I & schoolfriends were learning to drive in late 1970s.
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When a person is in a position of authority, as when teaching someone to drive, it is wrong to have a sexual relationanship with them, consensual or otherwise. This is especially true if they are teaching a 17 year old to drive, as the instructor is likely to be a good few years older than the youngster.
What about a piano teacher? They are notoriously more bad tempered and prone to rage than are level headed driving instructors. Should a piano teacher be barred from a romantic relationship?
I remember a while ago I mentioned that I had worked for Wal Mart, who made everybody sign an agreement that they would not "date" an employee of inferior rank to themselves, and the general consensus was that the same interfered with individual liberty.
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What about a piano teacher? They are notoriously more bad tempered and prone to rage than are level headed driving instructors. Should a piano teacher be barred from a romantic relationship?
I remember a while ago I mentioned that I had worked for Wal Mart, who made everybody sign an agreement that they would not "date" an employee of inferior rank to themselves, and the general consensus was that the same interfered with individual liberty.
Teachers should not have romantic liaisons with their pupils. A university lecturer can be in the deep proverbial if they get romantically attached to a student, even though they are both adults.
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It's certainly unprofessional of the instructors to make any sort of advances towards young pupils even if only by innuendo. Nothing new about it though! Happened a lot when I & schoolfriends were learning to drive in late 1970s.
I remember when I was learning to drive in the seventies, the young lady who lived :across the road from me told me:
"I took my driving test, I wore a skimpy top & the shortest skirt that I had, I looked as tarty as I could,,but he still failed me".
It was not, and is not, one way.
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I remember when I was learning to drive in the seventies, the young lady who lived :across the road from me told me:
"I took my driving test, I wore a skimpy top & the shortest skirt that I had, I looked as tarty as I could,,but he still failed me".
It was not, and is not, one way.
So wearing a short skirt etc is akin to sexually exploiting someone much younger who can be seen as vulnerable.
There’s a reason many women ask for female instructors when learning to drive. I did. Let’s see if you can guess why.
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HWB ;D, doubt any girl would think let alone say something like that now.
You mentioned piano teachers, I knew a woman married to a music teacher who got into a couple of relationships with young pupils. The marriage didn't last, it was devastating for her; she had absolutely no idea and the lessons took place in a room in their house!
Same old story comes up in so many different circumstances.
Rhi - good idea to ask for a woman instructor, there are too few of them.
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HWB ;D, doubt any girl would think let alone say something like that now.
You mentioned piano teachers, I knew a woman married to a music teacher who got into a couple of relationships with young pupils. The marriage didn't last, it was devastating for her; she had absolutely no idea and the lessons took place in a room in their house!
Same old story comes up in so many different circumstances.
Rhi - good idea to ask for a woman instructor, there are too few of them.
I wasn’t trying to strike a blow for equality. Good point though.
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So wearing a short skirt etc is akin to sexually exploiting someone much younger who can be seen as vulnerable.
There’s a reason many women ask for female instructors when learning to drive. I did. Let’s see if you can guess why.
Did you understand my post? I suspect not.
The young woman was trying to influence the Driving Examiner. He did his job properly. The young woman tried to influence him to do otherwise.
Now do you understand?
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Did you understand my post? I suspect not.
The young woman was trying to influence the Driving Examiner. He did his job properly. The young woman tried to influence him to do otherwise.
Now do you understand?
You don’t like women, do you?
I’ll ask you again. Why do you think I asked for a female driving instructor?
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You don’t like women, do you?
I’ll ask you again. Why do you think I asked for a female driving instructor?
Typical feminist response. A woman tries to influence a man to break his code of employment, he refuses, but it is still his fault.
Feminism is a joke.
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No Humph it isn't.
Obviously the girl was wrong to think she could use feminine wiles to influence the examiner's decision but he was a professional man who wasn't swayed. So that's a good story & no doubt the girl learned her lesson.
I've known of girls years ago who've tried the same for different things (one at a job interview ::)) and it didn't work. They don't do it again. It's wrong but it happens because they hear stories about others who've tried it successfully, don't have enough confidence in their own abilities and personalities. Sad really.
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Typical feminist response. A woman tries to influence a man to break his code of employment, he refuses, but it is still his fault.
Feminism is a joke.
I was raped by a man whose car I was stupid enough to get into when I was 15. When I learned to drive I decided not to put myself in a situation where a man could get me to an isolated place and do it again.
Assuming your neighbour wasn’t being tongue in cheek, trying to influence an examiner us not the same thing as being in the receiving end of unwanted sexual attention, groping and predation.
But haters gonna hate and you do it magnificently.
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I remember when I was learning to drive in the seventies, the young lady who lived :across the road from me told me:
"I took my driving test, I wore a skimpy top & the shortest skirt that I had, I looked as tarty as I could,,but he still failed me".
It was not, and is not, one way.
How can you generalise from an isolated example? Even then, she might have failed her test simply due to having poor driving skills (irrespective of her clothing).
Both my daughters had male driving instructors and both passed their driving tests (one first time, and the other second time) and with no concerns about their (different) instructors. All this means is that, based on their experiences, these instructors were professional in their approach to teaching them to drive.
There may be rogue driving instructors, but the assumption that young women can as a tactic charm their way to a pass seems speculative.
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I was raped by a man whose car I was stupid enough to get into when I was 15. When I learned to drive I decided not to put myself in a situation where a man could get me to an isolated place and do it again.
You poor thing Rhi, a horrible experience. Something similar happened to me but in a house where there was a party, he got me alone in a room, had told me he wanted me to see something. Sounds naive of me but I thought it was something interesting, maybe a painting. Oh I could laugh now but not with humour.
My motto afterwards - make sure you know the way out, ie can see a clear exit, and always have your fare home.
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You poor thing Rhi, a horrible experience. Something similar happened to me but in a house where there was a party, he got me alone in a room, had told me he wanted me to see something. Sounds naive of me but I thought it was something interesting, maybe a painting. Oh I could laugh now but not with humour.
My motto afterwards - make sure you know the way out, ie can see a clear exit, and always have your fare home.
I’m sorry, Robbie, and look at us, blaming ourselves for being stupid and naive, when it so wasn’t our fault in any way at all.
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I didn't think it was my fault but at same time thought I'd been stupid. I'm sure you know how I felt. A couple of girls I told about it afterwards were so unsympathetic! That didn't help, wished I'd said nothing. I did eventually tell my mum and she impressed on me in no uncertain terms that I was not to blame, it was the fault of the other person who wanted to take what was not freely given. Couldn't do anything about it, an 'open' party, only knew the guy's first name, never saw him before and (thankfully) not since. Anyway I moved on, it didn't ruin my life.
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I didn't think it was my fault but at same time thought I'd been stupid. I'm sure you know how I felt. A couple of girls I told about it afterwards were so unsympathetic! That didn't help, wished I'd said nothing. I did eventually tell my mum and she impressed on me in no uncertain terms that I was not to blame, it was the fault of the other person who wanted to take what was not freely given. Couldn't do anything about it, an 'open' party, only knew the guy's first name, never saw him before and (thankfully) not since. Anyway I moved on, it didn't ruin my life.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean, we know where blame lies but still use words like ‘stupid’ to describe ourselves. I didn’t tell my mum, in fact I was terrified of her finding out. The recent debate around consent has been helpful for me in healing the last few scars but like you, it didn’t ruin my life. Sadly I think it is just a part of what being a woman is about, although I hope times are changing.
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My mother said she knew there was something wrong, she didn't think it was what it was but it was a relief to tell her and she was such a comfort. When it happened I didn't want to tell her because I felt she would tell my dad and he would try and find the chap, without success, but cause a big fuss which I didn't want to be at the centre of.
One of the girls I told about it said she thought it must be terribly difficult to rape someone and didn't believe me, virtually calling me a liar. I was withdrawn after that but a few months later she came to me and said something similar had happened to her and she was sorry, she understood. Well we were all a lot younger then. We move on but it's still there in the background, every now and then something triggers the memory.
There are plenty of nice men around who wouldn't dream of sexually assaulting anyone, thank goodness.
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Typical feminist response. A woman tries to influence a man to break his code of employment, he refuses, but it is still his fault.
Feminism is a joke.
It is you who is the joke, a very bad one. >:( Your posts concerning women are not pleasant, I am genuinely concerned about how you behave towards them in real life. :o
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It is you who is the joke, a very bad one. >:( Your posts concerning women are not pleasant, I am genuinely concerned about how you behave towards them in real life. :o
Floo - you keep calling people scum and are very black and white in your thinking. I would genuinely be more concerned about how you behave towards people in real life.
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Floo - you keep calling people scum and are very black and white in your thinking. I would genuinely be more concerned about how you behave towards people in real life.
It may surprise you to know I appear to be quite popular. Doesn't HWB's attitude towards women concern you?
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I was raped by a man whose car I was stupid enough to get into when I was 15. When I learned to drive I decided not to put myself in a situation where a man could get me to an isolated place and do it again.
Assuming your neighbour wasn’t being tongue in cheek, trying to influence an examiner us not the same thing as being in the receiving end of unwanted sexual attention, groping and predation.
But haters gonna hate and you do it magnificently.
Extremely sorry that happened to you. I agree that being on the receiving end of unwanted sexual attention is bad, especially if it is an assault. I don’t know what it feels like to be a man receiving unwanted sexual attention - I don’t know if they feel scared if the unwanted attention is from a woman. I have been extremely lucky in not experiencing anything that made me feel genuinely scared. Uncomfortable, yes, but not outright scared.
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It may surprise you to know I appear to be quite popular. Doesn't HWB's attitude towards women concern you?
Yes i felt uncomfortable at the idea of a consensual relationship between a 17 year old pupil and a driving instructor. But that could be my tendency to be cautious about any relationships whereas my less cautious friends at 17 enjoyed their relationships with older men. One of my best friends re-sat her A-Levels at a crammer and pushed for a relationship with her tutor. I met him a few times - really nice guy, not creepy at all, good-looking, and she was happy and got good grades - she got into Bristol to do mechanical engineering. So not every instance is predatory I guess.
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I didn't think it was my fault but at same time thought I'd been stupid. I'm sure you know how I felt. A couple of girls I told about it afterwards were so unsympathetic! That didn't help, wished I'd said nothing. I did eventually tell my mum and she impressed on me in no uncertain terms that I was not to blame, it was the fault of the other person who wanted to take what was not freely given. Couldn't do anything about it, an 'open' party, only knew the guy's first name, never saw him before and (thankfully) not since. Anyway I moved on, it didn't ruin my life.
Really sorry to hear that happened to you Robbie. It is just so crap that a girl can’t be safe alone with a boy because there is a possibility that she will be assaulted even though there clearly are lots of boys who would not assault a girl. The only problem is predators aren’t helpfully wearing a sign around their necks so we can identify them.
And I can’t fathom why if a girl is considerate or polite to a man, so many men think she likes them or wants to have sex with them or don’t care what she wants but he wants to have sex with her. I’m nice to lots of people I am totally ambivalent towards because it’s good manners to be nice.
My daughter is 18 and going out a lot more than when she was younger. Parties tend to have boys and alcohol unlike when she was younger, I do keep trying to impress on her before a party not to be alone with a boy and to be vigilant about having her drink spiked - it would be nice if I could just say “Have a good time”.
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Yes i felt uncomfortable at the idea of a consensual relationship between a 17 year old pupil and a driving instructor. But that could be my tendency to be cautious about any relationships whereas my less cautious friends at 17 enjoyed their relationships with older men. One of my best friends re-sat her A-Levels at a crammer and pushed for a relationship with her tutor. I met him a few times - really nice guy, not creepy at all, good-looking, and she was happy and got good grades - she got into Bristol to do mechanical engineering. So not every instance is predatory I guess.
It doesn't excuse the guy having a relationship with a student.
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It may surprise you to know I appear to be quite popular. Doesn't HWB's attitude towards women concern you?
You have written that I should be castrated & hung upside down.
I have written that I do not like feminism.
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You have written that I should be castrated & hung upside down.
I have written that I do not like feminism.
I don't like your attitude to women.
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You have written that I should be castrated & hung upside down.
I have written that I do not like feminism.
To be fair, LR has stated that she didn't really mean that but even joking; it seemed extreme.
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To be fair, LR has stated that she didn't really mean that but even joking; it seemed extreme.
Whilst I shouldn't have made that remark, and was slapped over the knuckles for it, I think HWB's attitude to women is unpleasant and extreme.
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Whilst I shouldn't have made that remark, and was slapped over the knuckles for it, I think HWB's attitude to women is unpleasant and extreme.
What do you think is 'extreme' in his views?
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What do you think is 'extreme' in his views?
Actually his views are depressingly common.
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Extremely sorry that happened to you. I agree that being on the receiving end of unwanted sexual attention is bad, especially if it is an assault. I don’t know what it feels like to be a man receiving unwanted sexual attention - I don’t know if they feel scared if the unwanted attention is from a woman. I have been extremely lucky in not experiencing anything that made me feel genuinely scared. Uncomfortable, yes, but not outright scared.
Thank you. I should think the biggest fear for a man getting unwanted attention from a woman would be false accusations if he doesn't respond but I don’t know. Most men are sexually assaulted by other men.
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My view, which may be worth nothing to anyone, is HWB gets fed up with men being castigated when most men are decent & he is therefore deliberately provocative.
Anyone teaching, tutoring or doctoring should, imo, maintain a professional distance not just for the safety of their client but for their own safety and reputation.
If genuine feelings arise they can wait until they're no longer in that professional relationship, then meet socially & take it from there. Nothing wrong with that where both parties are adult even if one is a few years older. May come to nothing or fizzle out anyway like most relationships.
(Gabriella, thank you for kind words. I was not as young as Rhiannon when that happened but still in education at the time. All in the past.)
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Thank you. I should think the biggest fear for a man getting unwanted attention from a woman would be false accusations if he doesn't respond but I don’t know. Most men are sexually assaulted by other men.
I had missed Gabriella's comment - I don't think there is a one size fits all for how men might feel from unwanyed sexual attention from women, or men, just as I think that is true of women. It depends on the circumstances and what the relationship is.
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My view, which may be worth nothing to anyone, is HWB gets fed up with being castigated when most are decent & is therefore deliberately provocative.
Anyone teaching, tutoring or doctoring should, imo, maintain a professional distance not just for the safety of their client but for their own safety and reputation.
If genuine feelings arise they can wait until they're no longer in that professional relationship, then meet socially & take it from there. Nothing wrong with that where both parties are adult even if one is a few years older. May come to nothing or fizzle out anyway like most relationships.
(Gabriella, thank you for kind words. I was not as young as Rhiannon when that happened but still in education at the time. All in the past.)
That is coming close, although it is not the entire picture. I dislike feminism because I saw the effects of feminism as a trade union official. I can remember a staff inspection (Time & Motion's younger and prettier sibling), where the response, co ordinated by a self professed feminist, concentrated on changing "Manpower Audit" to "Workforce Audit". At the conclusion, two jobs were lost, but changing sexist language was seen as a triumph. I do also recall another feminist, who insisted on a woman lecturer at a trade union one day school, was happy to read out a lecture written by one of the males.
I am not contributing to the exchange between yourself, Rhiannon, and Gabriella, since if you find the same to be of mutual therapy, then you do not need interference from me. And of course I condemn the disgusting violations that yourself, and Rhiannon, have suffered.
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Understood & cool HWB.
(I made a mistake in my previous post which you quoted, left out words, will correct it now.)
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What do you think is 'extreme' in his views?
He seem to think it is ok for people in positions of authority like driving instructors, teachers and university lecturers to have sex with their pupils, even if they are only seventeen.
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He seem to think it is ok for people in positions of authority like driving instructors, teachers and university lecturers to have sex with their pupils, even if they are only seventeen.
No, since his position on this thread was that he saw the relationship of driving instructor as different to that of teacher, you are incorrect about his position.
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That is coming close, although it is not the entire picture. I dislike feminism because I saw the effects of feminism as a trade union official. I can remember a staff inspection (Time & Motion's younger and prettier sibling), where the response, co ordinated by a self professed feminist, concentrated on changing "Manpower Audit" to "Workforce Audit". At the conclusion, two jobs were lost, but changing sexist language was seen as a triumph. I do also recall another feminist, who insisted on a woman lecturer at a trade union one day school, was happy to read out a lecture written by one of the males.
I am not contributing to the exchange between yourself, Rhiannon, and Gabriella, since if you find the same to be of mutual therapy, then you do not need interference from me. And of course I condemn the disgusting violations that yourself, and Rhiannon, have suffered.
It's not 'therapy' to talk about rape. It's just fact. The 'feminism' that you reject as a joke exists to challenge the attitudes that makes rape a routine thing for women to deal with. Think how many female posters there are here. Think of the percentage that have said ;'me too'. That should tell you why feminism is anything but a joke.
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It doesn't excuse the guy having a relationship with a student.
Thinking about it now, I think the relationship happened once she was no longer his student. I think back then you did not have to wait a whole year to re-sit A’Levels so I think she re-sat either after one term or two. She was at a private crammer and he was a young tutor.
So maybe a driving instructor can have a consensual relationship when the student is no longer their student.
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Exactly, that was suggested a few posts back. It isn't always sleazy. It is sleazy if a person is bombarded with suggestive talk in a situation where she is a captive audience.
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Did you understand my post? I suspect not.
The young woman was trying to influence the Driving Examiner. He did his job properly. The young woman tried to influence him to do otherwise.
Now do you understand?
I have to admit I don't understand your point. Clearly it was wrong for the woman in your story to try to exploit sex to pass her driving test. Are you trying to claim that, because she did something she shouldn't have, it's completely OK for a driving instructor in an unrelated incident to do something unprofessional?
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Are you trying to claim that, because she did something she shouldn't have, it's completely OK for a driving instructor in an unrelated incident to do something unprofessional?
Of course he is not. All that he is saying is that sexual exploitation is not a one-way street.
This is obvious to anyone who has not deafened themselves by continuously grinding axes. ::)
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Of course he is not. All that he is saying is that sexual exploitation is not a one-way street.
This is obvious to anyone who has not deafened themselves by continuously grinding axes. ::)
Then what relevance has it to the question of how driving instructors should behave as regards 17 year olds they teach which was what HWB raised this in response to?
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Of course he is not. All that he is saying is that sexual exploitation is not a one-way street.
This is obvious to anyone who has not deafened themselves by continuously grinding axes. ::)
We only have HWB’s interpretation of the girl’s words. It’s the kind of lame joke that might be made to deal with disappointment on failing a driving test, or it could be a genuine comment. We don’t know. Given HWB’s prejudice against women I wouldn’t bet either way.
This doesn’t change the fact that people of both genders use sex to manipulate and exploit. But the issue with driving instructors is specifically about warning older people not to exploit the young and inexperienced - which HWB’s ‘young woman’ would have been at the time of his story.
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We only have HWB’s interpretation of the girl’s words. It’s the kind of lame joke that might be made to deal with disappointment on failing a driving test, or it could be a genuine comment. We don’t know. Given HWB’s prejudice against women I wouldn’t bet either way.
This doesn’t change the fact that people of both genders use sex to manipulate and exploit. But the issue with driving instructors is specifically about warning older people not to exploit the young and inexperienced - which HWB’s ‘young woman’ would have been at the time of his story.
That’s not a one way street either. I have known 17 year olds who are capable of and have exploited older people.
I have been in a position where I could have exploited an older person if I was that way inclined because I was aware that they thought they had a chance with me if they could charm me enough with flattery and gifts. I know certain friends/ acquaintances of mine at school who would have and they used to joke about how to manipulate men - but there were also plenty of girls who would have been revolted at the idea. Some young women have predatory instincts and at school this was seen by the girls who did it as women behaving like men and being strong and going after what they wanted rather than being weak. But that was the time of Dynasty and shoulder pads and railing against double-standards.
I think that was all HWB was trying to say. I think he gets a bit fed up with generalisations about men and women and tries to redress the balance in a not very nuanced way - but maybe he also gets judged unduly harshly for being a man being blunt about some women.
I disagree with his opinion that a driving instructor should be able to have a consensual relationship with a 17 year old pupil - just safer to not go there even if a pupil is interested - other pupils should not have to run the risk that their instructor thinks it’s ok to test the waters by flirting with them.
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I have to admit I don't understand your point. Clearly it was wrong for the woman in your story to try to exploit sex to pass her driving test. Are you trying to claim that, because she did something she shouldn't have, it's completely OK for a driving instructor in an unrelated incident to do something unprofessional?
Not at all, that post was a response to another post which asked a different question. This thread was intended to be a discussion about whether it was desirable, or necessary to warn driving instructors not to have a consensual relationship with a seventeen year old pupil. Nothing more than that, but as the discussion has proceeded, other elements have been introduced.
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A bit of light relief:-
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074343/
I haven't seen it but remember the film came out when I was at school & then some girls bought the book and circulated it, which I did read. It was quite funny & naughty at the time.
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Of course he is not. All that he is saying is that sexual exploitation is not a one-way street.
This is obvious to anyone who has not deafened themselves by continuously grinding axes. ::)
Yes,, but so what? It looked very much like a tu quoque to me.
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I didn't consider it to be anything close to a tu quoque - merely a humourous aside in a thread which lost its way almost from the start.
Driving instruction is a commercial service activity - like a shopkeeper selling groceries, like a gardener digging gardens, like a decorator painting ceilings. It is an activity governed by the law of contract. The relationship between instructor and learner is that of seller and buyer. To compare it to that of teacher and student is to misrepresent the nature of the relationship - it is essentially a contractual relationship between contracting adults. Minors can make contracts for necessities - it may be that someone 17 years of age could argue that learning to drive is a necessity, and it must often be the case that a young learner does reach the age of 18 before passing a driving test.
A driving instructor is not in loco parentis.
It could be that a young woman of 17 or 18 and a male driving instructor of 23 or 24 find each other attractive and wish to further explore this attraction. Should this be forbidden by law? What purpose would be served by this? If he were, say, a hairdresser - performing a personal service - should the same interdiction apply? What if it is the young woman who finds the instructor attractive and then makes the first move?
Should there be unwanted activity on the part of the driving instructor, the criminal law is available to deal with this. The learner could treat the contract as broken and walk away from it. I do not see any reason to codify the relationship - this would be the work of an intrusive nanny state.
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Seventeen year olds may very well be aware of how to use their sexuality; they rarely have the maturity to understand the implications of what that might be.
I take your point, HH, about a girl in her late teens being attracted to a single driving instructor a few years older. Another scenario of course is a young woman falling for a married instructor some twenty years her senior. Being together in a car gives ample opportunity for grooming someone and being a driving instructor paves the way for predators to groom the vulnerable - boys and girls - and then say that it’s ok because the sex is consensual.
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Being together in a car gives ample opportunity for grooming someone and being a driving instructor paves the way for predators to groom the vulnerable - boys and girls - and then say that it’s ok because the sex is consensual.
It is my observation that the majority of driving lessons begin and end outside the dwelling of the learner. The duration of the lesson is usually known. Others in the house know when to expect the lesson to end and can judge the composure - or otherwise - of the learner at the end of the lesson.
Now, can you tell me the incidence of grooming behaviour carried out during driving lessons? Is it a significant risk? Or is this just another step along the road to demonising all men just because they are men?
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It is my observation that the majority of driving lessons begin and end outside the dwelling of the learner. The duration of the lesson is usually known. Others in the house know when to expect the lesson to end and can judge the composure - or otherwise - of the learner at the end of the lesson.
Now, can you tell me the incidence of grooming behaviour carried out during driving lessons? Is it a significant risk? Or is this just another step along the road to demonising all men just because they are men?
Justify your statement that I am ‘demonising all men’ or retract it.
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Justify your statement that I am ‘demonising all men’ or retract it.
HH might be saying that you are mistaken in the estimate of risk, tjough given that hasn't been an establishment by him of what 'significant risk' is it's hard to know what the claim is.
It does however seem to me that he's based it on a 'significant' false dichotomy that either you show the incidence and significance or accept that yph are demonizing all men for the sake of it. I think there is an odd reaction from some men that the prevalence of sexual harassment and assault of women is some how an indication that that prevalence needs to be assumed as the behaviour of the same percentage of men. It seems to accuzse women for speaking out of some form of calumny of truth.
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Seventeen year olds may very well be aware of how to use their sexuality; they rarely have the maturity to understand the implications of what that might be.
I don’t understand what that means. Can you please be more specific? What implications do 17 year olds not understand, compared to adults about being attracted to someone older who can add value to their life and acting on that attraction?
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HH might be saying that you are mistaken in the estimate of risk, tjough given that hasn't been an establishment by him of what 'significant risk' is it's hard to know what the claim is.
It does however seem to me that he's based it on a 'significant' false dichotomy that either you show the incidence and significance or accept that yph are demonizing all men for the sake of it. I think there is an odd reaction from some men that the prevalence of sexual harassment and assault of women is some how an indication that that prevalence needs to be assumed as the behaviour of the same percentage of men. It seems to accuzse women for speaking out of some form of calumny of truth.
I’m not sure why I need to quantify risk; all I have done is explain how predators can exploit this particular form of employment. I’m not even sure that I agree that the state should intervene here, but I can see the thinking behind it. Maybe a better bet would be a code of conduct. I genuinely don’t know.
I’m also not sure why HH thinks I’m ‘demonising all men’ when he doesn’t even know me. I have encountered men who undoubtedly have a demonic side. But I don’t see why I should have to qualify every negative statement I make about the behaviour of some men, about my rape or domestic abuse with ‘of course most men are completely lovely’, as if by calling out some men I’m insulting an entire sex.
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Yep, agree. I think a code of conduct makes more sense here as well. Also as ever there is a forgetfulness about this applying to both sexes in all circumstances.
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Yep, agree. I think a code of conduct makes more sense here as well. Also as ever there is a forgetfulness about this applying to both sexes in all circumstances.
Absolutely. Young men need protecting too, and women can predate. There’s no suggestion of this only applying to male instructors, is there?
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Absolutely. Young men need protecting too, and women can predate. There’s no suggestion of this only applying to male instructors, is there?
Not that I've seen. Doesn't work that way with teaching.
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I don’t understand what that means. Can you please be more specific? What implications do 17 year olds not understand, compared to adults about being attracted to someone older who can add value to their life and acting on that attraction?
This came to mind.
https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/reports/a9949676/schoolgirl-flees-to-france-with-teacher-2017-update/
And yes, I know she was 15 and not 17, but that’s not a huge difference. Some young people understand how to use sex and attraction without distinguishing between infatuation and something lasting, let alone considering the implications for others - older people often have spouses, kids.
I had a couple of flings with older men back in my teens and they were definitely infatuations, fun and interesting and clearly entered into but I didn’t consider anything beyond the moment.
Hell, it’s hard enough to get this right for people our age, but at least I think we are clear eyed enough to see that chemistry isn’t enough for a relationship.
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Yes some adults have messy relationships with married men that damage the lives of the people around them. And yes I agree that in your teens and twenties, and in many cases older than that, some people can become easily infatuated and it takes over your brain. So yes any relationship is dangerous because of that risk -most people presumably don’t plan to become infatuated and out of control.
The drama referred to in the Cosmo article was due to her being below the age of consent and a teacher abusing their position of authority.
I don’t think a driving instructor has a position of authority. Given we can’t generalise about the maturity of 17 year olds having a legal, consensual relationship with people teaching them stuff - I like the code of conduct idea. My daughter is about to be 18 and is being tutored for her Chemistry A’Level. Her tutor is young - i don’t see it as abusing his position if she liked him and he felt the same way and they acted on it. I would be against a relationship but i’m not naive about the risk of one developing.
I’m squeamish about large age gaps when one party is 17 but i’ve also been in the position where I have liked someone about 15 or 16 years older than me when I was 17 and I can’t say I would have been exploited if I had acted on my feelings and found they were reciprocated - based on my feelings at 19 where I did act on my feelings - it would have felt like a brief fling that I learned I didn’t want to repeat.
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Driving instruction is a commercial service activity - like a shopkeeper selling groceries, like a gardener digging gardens, like a decorator painting ceilings. It is an activity governed by the law of contract. The relationship between instructor and learner is that of seller and buyer. To compare it to that of teacher and student is to misrepresent the nature of the relationship
A seller- buyer relationship and a teacher - student relationship are not mutually exclusive. University students buy their courses off the University. They are also, as a rule, over 18 and yet Universities tend to ban relationships between lecturers and students.
it is essentially a contractual relationship between contracting adults.
Well my work involves having contractual relationships with other adults. I would consider it somewhat unprofessional to engage in a sexual relationship with an employee of one of my customers. I admit though that it probably wouldn't result in me getting fired.