Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gonnagle on March 11, 2018, 11:53:03 AM
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Dear Forum,
Now how did I miss this one.
http://www.thenews.pl/1/12/Artykul/351722,Poland-introduces-partial-ban-on-Sunday-trading
According to wikki Poland is a very up and coming nation.
Is anyone up on the politics of Poland.
Gonnagle.
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I used to be. My friends there tell me it hasn't changed.
So that's xenophobic in the extreme, right wing - particularly socially, corrupt and subservient to the wishes of an unduly influential Catholic Church, which is where I suspect the push for these Sunday trading laws come from.
Don't get me wrong I love Poland, but politically for me it is unacceptable and not to be admired.
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Dear Forum,
Now how did I miss this one.
http://www.thenews.pl/1/12/Artykul/351722,Poland-introduces-partial-ban-on-Sunday-trading
According to wikki Poland is a very up and coming nation.
Is anyone up on the politics of Poland.
Gonnagle.
This will certainly upset folks who are against a time for personal and social reflection away from a gaderene social rush to confusion and overextension.
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Jolly good show. We should ban Sunday opening, with a few obvious exceptions, here. Individual coucil wards could then opt to have their trading-ban day on a Saturday or Friday, if the ward in question is predominantly Jewish or Muslim.
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I also heard it is 'up and coming'; friends have even thought of buying a place there whereas Spain and France used to be the place to do that. I've not been so can't judge first hand. Couldn't care less about partial Sunday trading laws which we used to have here not that long ago and managed, I suppose if you were in Poland you'd just accept them & make sure you had what you wanted in advance.
StevenH:- "...opt to have their trading-ban day on a Saturday or Friday, if the ward in question is predominantly Jewish or Muslim."
Yeah why not.
Can't say I fancy Poland all that much tho even if it is 'up and coming' but that's personal choice.
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Jolly good show. We should ban Sunday opening, with a few obvious exceptions, here. Individual coucil wards could then opt to have their trading-ban day on a Saturday or Friday, if the ward in question is predominantly Jewish or Muslim.
Can't see the need for a trading ban at all: there are no Sunday restrictions at all here in Scotland and there are no frightened horses roaming the streets.
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Jolly good show. We should ban Sunday opening, with a few obvious exceptions, here. Individual coucil wards could then opt to have their trading-ban day on a Saturday or Friday, if the ward in question is predominantly Jewish or Muslim.
Nobody wants you to go shopping on a Sunday if you don't want to, why are you, as it seems to me, so interested in giving directions to others about the things people should do or not do on Sundays, like shopping.?
Regards ippy
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Dear ippy,
Giving directions, well I think we should be giving directions, or do you think it is all sweetness and light in our lovely garden of Eden?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43312464
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43246263
Tip of the iceberg ippy old chap and speaking of icebergs, I for one would like to keep some icebergs, here's a thought, forget any religious meaning to Sunday closing, lets make it a world awareness day regarding consumerism and pollution.
Gonnagle.
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Dear ippy,
Giving directions, well I think we should be giving directions, or do you think it is all sweetness and light in our lovely garden of Eden?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43312464
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43246263
Tip of the iceberg ippy old chap and speaking of icebergs, I for one would like to keep some icebergs, here's a thought, forget any religious meaning to Sunday closing, lets make it a world awareness day regarding consumerism and pollution.
Gonnagle.
Yes can it be any coincidence that personal debt rises with spending opportunities.
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Dear ippy,
Giving directions, well I think we should be giving directions, or do you think it is all sweetness and light in our lovely garden of Eden?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43312464
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43246263
Tip of the iceberg ippy old chap and speaking of icebergs, I for one would like to keep some icebergs, here's a thought, forget any religious meaning to Sunday closing, lets make it a world awareness day regarding consumerism and pollution.
Gonnagle.
Why Sunday? You're far too restrictive. Let's make every day a world awareness day as regards such things as pollution. As far as consumerism goes, my wife has just been shopping in order to buy some buns and cakes to be given at a dance we are holding tonight to celebrate one of our dancer's birthdays who has recently lost his wife. What's wrong with that? As far as Sunday goes, it's just another day as far as I am concerned, and I resent the idea of shopping hours being forcibly restricted on Sundays. Why on earth should they? As you say, forget any religious meaning, except, of course, for those who wish to remember any religious meaning. That would be entirely up to them.
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Nobody wants you to go shopping on a Sunday if you don't want to, why are you, as it seems to me, so interested in giving directions to others about the things people should do or not do on Sundays, like shopping.?
Regards ippy
Because shop workers then have to work on Sundays, as do more police, and other emergency service personnel. It is good for as many people as possible to have the same day off each week, which is why USDAW, the shop-workers Union, which has no religious axe to grind, was opposed to the relaxation of Sunday opening rules.
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Dear ippy,
Giving directions, well I think we should be giving directions, or do you think it is all sweetness and light in our lovely garden of Eden?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43312464
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43246263
Tip of the iceberg ippy old chap and speaking of icebergs, I for one would like to keep some icebergs, here's a thought, forget any religious meaning to Sunday closing, lets make it a world awareness day regarding consumerism and pollution.
Gonnagle.
I had a look at your links?
Why do you want to stop anyone shopping on a Sunday Gonners? No matter how useless I think going to church on a Sunday is, well that's up to the individual I have no wish to stop those already infected with the religion bug doing anything legal, it's none of my business.
Likewise it's nothing to do with you if anyone is wanting to go about their lawful business, including on Sundays and that goes for whatever it is Vlad is blabbering on about too.
Regards ippy
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Because shop workers then have to work on Sundays, as do more police, and other emergency service personnel. It is good for as many people as possible to have the same day off each week, which is why USDAW, the shop-workers Union, which has no religious axe to grind, was opposed to the relaxation of Sunday opening rules.
Some shop workers don't object at all to working on Sundays. All you have to do is make it part of the law that they are not forced to do so. I fail to see how more police and other emergency service personnel will be particularly inconvenienced if shops open for longer. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
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Some shop workers don't object at all to working on Sundays. All you have to do is make it part of the law that they are not forced to do so. I fail to see how more police and other emergency service personnel will be particularly inconvenienced if shops open for longer. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
Because - obviously, I'd've thought - there will be more people in town centres.
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Because shop workers then have to work on Sundays, as do more police, and other emergency service personnel. It is good for as many people as possible to have the same day off each week, which is why USDAW, the shop-workers Union, which has no religious axe to grind, was opposed to the relaxation of Sunday opening rules.
Lots of young parents are glad of the opportunity to go out to work for extra money while their spouse is likely to be able to care for their youngsters and as far as I know the criminal world doesn't always take Sundays off, nor do buildings always manage to catch fire during the working week not on Sundays, these things do not represent anything that only occurs in my imagination, there a number of reasons people want to shop on a Sunday, so what, why not?
Regards ippy
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https://www.usdaw.org.uk/Campaigns/Keep-Sunday-Special
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Dear enki,
No sorry, I was replying to ippy when he spoke about giving direction, we need a day of focus, people need to think, why are there no shops open, we do have to give direction, we need to wake everyone up to the fact that we are poisoning our planet, this not a small problem, it is rampant, one day a week when you leave the car at home, one day a week when we use Shanks's pony, one day a week when we all get on our bicycle, and for me, one day a week when we all appreciate Gods gift, this little planet.
Gonnagle.
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Because - obviously, I'd've thought - there will be more people in town centres.
On the face of it, that seems a fair point except that many shops, including most supermarkets, aren't in town centres at all, and I can't remember the last time I saw a policeman anywhere near a shop, unless it was to buy something. Also, all sorts of events already take place on Sundays where police might be needed, As regards the emergency services, do fires not break out on Sundays, do people not need A&E on Sundays, does traffic stop on Sundays? A far greater problem for the emergency services is the number of people in pubs and wine bars, and their greatest problem is on Saturday nights. I can't see how an increase in shopping hours on Sundays is going to make any appreciable difference to this at all.
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https://www.usdaw.org.uk/Campaigns/Keep-Sunday-Special
That's link's a point of view, most people would prefer to do as they wish, me too, good luck with preventing Sunday opening, you'll need it.
Regards ippy
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Dear enki,
No sorry, I was replying to ippy when he spoke about giving direction, we need a day of focus, people need to think, why are there no shops open, we do have to give direction, we need to wake everyone up to the fact that we are poisoning our planet, this not a small problem, it is rampant, one day a week when you leave the car at home, one day a week when we use Shanks's pony, one day a week when we all get on our bicycle, and for me, one day a week when we all appreciate Gods gift, this little planet.
Gonnagle.
To me this smacks of pie in the sky. I very much doubt that shops closing early on Sundays leads to people thinking about the damaging things we are doing to our planet. I think the problem goes much deeper, and one of the foremost ways of dealing with this, to my mind, is through education and the dissemination of accurate information.
The idea that people leave the car at home for one day a week(Sundays) just isn't going to work. Sundays, especially in Summer, already leads to people using their cars, often more than on weekdays, as they visit relatives, go for picnics, attend events, descend on the countryside and the coast, for instance.
I very much doubt whether most people reflect and appreciate 'God's gift, this little planet' mainly because most people aren't particularly religious. They are probably much more aware of how they can find a parking space at the local supermarket or how they can defeat the frustrating traffic jam they are in as they head towards the coast. And for those that do appreciate 'God's gift', I would hope that they would do that whatever the day of the week it may be.
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Every time this subject comes up I'm always amazed at how contentious this is down south: it is routine here, so I'm guessing that is must be a local culture issue elsewhere.
If I want to I can do a full weekly shop at 9 pm tonight (and every Sunday that isn't affected by Xmas or New Year) since the large Tesco and Asda branches nearby are open until 10 pm on Sundays. Presumably the detail of employment arrangements that apply here in Scotland might be just as applicable in the likes of Manchester or Mansfield and I'm sure that the likes of USDAW (looking at the link Steve H posted earlier) know this.
The problem with the 'Keep Sunday Special' approach is that not everyone regards Sunday as being all that special to start with, and it seems to me that the 'special' status with regard to trading is being advanced by those who'd rather we all complied with their definition of 'special' and amended our expectations to suit their preferred constraints on activity on Sundays.
Reminds me of this quote from Bertrand Russell:
The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others.
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I am in two minds. Obviously I don't think Sunday is special for religious reasons, but I think shop workers should have one day of the week when the hours were shorter.
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I remember - which seems like aeons ago tho is prob'ly not that long - when Sunday trading was introduced and people who were not religious talked about shop workers having a bad deal; however they don't have to work on Sundays, that's in their contracts, they have a choice.
Personally I like Sunday trading, not that I go shopping that often but am happy for shopping centres to be open on Sunday. The Glades in Bromley is lovely, people take their kids and eat out which is fun and a good thing.
Before Sunday training was the norm there were always a few shops ('handy' type shops), that were open Sundays if you ran out of anything.
Nevertheless if I went abroad somewhere where there was no Sunday shopping, I'd be prepared and cope - wouldn't we all? Not big deal.
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Dear Forum,
Well so far the arguments against are, what's the word I am looking for, never mind it will come to me, but it seems to me you are all missing the bigger picture, enki talks about education, guess what, the kids get it, the kids are savvy, it is our throw away generation who has caused the poisoning, why because we never thought through our 24/7 culture.
When your Grands kids visit you in your wee retirement house, will they look at you with love or will they ask, what the hell were you thinking, when they ask, why can I only see a Polar bear in a zoo, when they ask,
https://www.rainforest-rescue.org/topics/palm-oil
Just so you could go out and buy 24/7.
We need a boot up the arse, we are all far to busy worrying about mortgages and stupid catchment areas and our pensions, when what we need to be focusing on is the world we are going to leave our kids.
Rant over, well for now :o
Gonnagle.
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Dear enki,
No sorry, I was replying to ippy when he spoke about giving direction, we need a day of focus, people need to think, why are there no shops open, we do have to give direction, we need to wake everyone up to the fact that we are poisoning our planet, this not a small problem, it is rampant, one day a week when you leave the car at home, one day a week when we use Shanks's pony, one day a week when we all get on our bicycle, and for me, one day a week when we all appreciate Gods gift, this little planet.
Gonnagle.
'We all appreciate Gods gift, this little planet', nobody knows if it did or not including you Gonners, or even knows if such a he she or it thing did/does exist.
Promise I won't try to control any of your legal pursuits, except telling lies to very young children.
Regards ippy
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It would be nice to have normal working hours. Shift work and weekends must be even worse if you have a family.
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I am in two minds. Obviously I don't think Sunday is special for religious reasons, but I think shop workers should have one day of the week when the hours were shorter.
I wasn’t aware that shop workers are being made to work seven days a week. The hours they do work are governed by European employment law. I’d be far more concerned, as a shop worker, about what the government is going to do about those laws post Brexit than being forced to have one of my days off on Sunday thanks to a useless religious superstition.
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Don't you think it's good idea that people can have a couple of days off work when most other people do? Having a Tuesday or Wednesday off is great when all your family and friends are at work and then working Sunday when they're off. They may not be forced to like having a gun pointed to their head but financially they may have no choice to accept such terms.
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Don't you think it's good idea that people can have a couple of days off work when most other people do? Having a Tuesday or Wednesday off is great when all your family and friends are at work and then working Sunday when they're off. They may not be forced to like having a gun pointed to their head but financially they may have no choice to accept such terms.
What's the point of having a day off if everything is shut?
In Scotland, there are no restrictions on Sunday trading and the World has not ended. Shop workers are not throwing themselves off tall buildings.
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I'm sure it's all very convenient to the customer and all those people with middle class jobs who work monday to friday 9-5.
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thank goodness, a return to restrictive practices on a Sunday is one thing that is vanishingly unlikely to be brought back.
If those who wish such an extremely backward step were to be consistent, then they should campaign for electrical and gas power to be switched off, no public transport to run, there would be no police on duty, no-one stacking shelves ready for Monday, no bakers preparing bread for the Monday sales, etc.
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Dear Forum,
Well so far the arguments against are, what's the word I am looking for, never mind it will come to me, but it seems to me you are all missing the bigger picture, enki talks about education, guess what, the kids get it, the kids are savvy, it is our throw away generation who has caused the poisoning, why because we never thought through our 24/7 culture.
When your Grands kids visit you in your wee retirement house, will they look at you with love or will they ask, what the hell were you thinking, when they ask, why can I only see a Polar bear in a zoo, when they ask,
https://www.rainforest-rescue.org/topics/palm-oil
Just so you could go out and buy 24/7.
We need a boot up the arse, we are all far to busy worrying about mortgages and stupid catchment areas and our pensions, when what we need to be focusing on is the world we are going to leave our kids.
Rant over, well for now :o
Gonnagle.
It seems to me that it is you who are missing the bigger picture, Gonners. Extending the hours for shopping on a Sunday will not affect the things that you have listed, and which many of us care about, in the least. As far as I am concerned, and going back to the actual reason for this thread, Poland seems to have taken a backwards step, and I doubt it is even for the many reasons that you enumerate.
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Dear enki,
The bigger picture!! It is the bigger picture I have been harping on about where as everyone else seems to be going on about loss of wages, the wee Mother being able to make some extra cash at the weekend or we don't want to go back to medieval times and reintroduce some superstitious nonsense.
Having one day a week when we can't just pop out and buy our plastic wrapped consumables is a step forward for the planet, we need to realise that this 24/7 culture is a mistake.
The bigger picture is the poisoning of this planet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/42030979/blue-planet-2-how-plastic-is-slowly-killing-our-sea-creatures-fish-and-birds
We need to do something drastic and quickly, taking away what some on here call, my right to shop anytime, it would make the big shops, your Tesco and ASDA sit up and take notice, it would make the ones who think poisoning the planet is someone else's problem actually start to think about this problem.
Gonnagle.
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Having one day a week when we can't just pop out and buy our plastic wrapped consumables is a step forward for the planet, we need to realise that this 24/7 culture is a mistake.
The bigger picture is the poisoning of this planet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/42030979/blue-planet-2-how-plastic-is-slowly-killing-our-sea-creatures-fish-and-birds
Do you have any evidence that connects shop opening times to the total amount of plastic used (which would seem to be the implication of your inclusion of the link)?
Do you actually think people would buy less if they couldn't shop on Sunday?
We need to do something drastic and quickly, taking away what some on here call, my right to shop anytime, it would make the big shops, your Tesco and ASDA sit up and take notice, it would make the ones who think poisoning the planet is someone else's problem actually start to think about this problem.
Again, what do you think the link is? Surely more direct action against plastic packaging would be far better than restricting shopping times?
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What bizarre logic, Gonners. The amount of plastic isn't determined by the length of opening hours, as Stranger says.
The big picture here is:
(a) better awareness on the part of consumers about their purchasing decisions so that retailers change their behaviour
(b) improved disposal behaviour by consumers
(c) joined up thinking by local government authorities - who are responsible for disposal/recycling - so that the most effective means of disposal/recycling is available to all consumers irrespective of where they live.
No two local authorities seem to be treating the same sets of plastic materials in the same manner. This is particularly important now that China has said that it doesn't want our rubbish anymore.
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Do you have any evidence that connects shop opening times to the total amount of plastic used (which would seem to be the implication of your inclusion of the link)?
Do you actually think people would buy less if they couldn't shop on Sunday?
Again, what do you think the link is? Surely more direct action against plastic packaging would be far better than restricting shopping times?
It's not just the plastic it's everything running 24/7/52. Machines, cash tills, people etc
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Dear Stranger,
Do you have any evidence that connects shop opening times to the total amount of plastic used (which would seem to be the implication of your inclusion of the link)?
No, but I will have a wee think about that question.
Do you actually think people would buy less if they couldn't shop on Sunday?
Yes, for some, the idea of Sunday shopping is like a day out, they don't actually need anything, just somewhere to take the kids, and speaking of kids ( although I will be honest, I have a Mcdonalds coffee at the start of every working day ) have you ever visited one of those establishments early in the morning, bins crammed full, one day a week when Mcdonalds litter is not lying all over the place.
Again, what do you think the link is? Surely more direct action against plastic packaging would be far better than restricting shopping times?
The link is, the shelves of these shops are packed with plastic covered goods.
There are other ways to tackle this tragedy,
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/bulk-makert-recycling-zero-waste-first-plastic-free-market-london-hackney-a7924781.html
But these are baby steps, we need to hit everyone hard and do it now.
A question for you, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the biggest tragedy, where would you put poisoning the planet on this scale?
Gonnagle.
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Dear Harrowby,
(a) better awareness on the part of consumers about their purchasing decisions so that retailers change their behaviour
Better awareness?? I work for the biggest employer in Britain, can you point me to any link where they are taking this tragedy seriously, half the staff I talk to have never seen the programme Blue planet, I have signs all over my dept, take your plastic home with you it falls on deaf ears.
Actually, here's a thought, should we treat plastic the same way we treat tobacco??
To make the public aware we need drastic action, how about renaming Sunday, world awareness day :o
Gonnagle.
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Dear Vlad,
It's not just the plastic it's everything running 24/7/52. Machines, cash tills, people etc
Very true, I read somewhere that we use a litre of water everytime we send an email, I wonder how much water I have wasted on this forum :o :o
Gonnagle.
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Yes, for some, the idea of Sunday shopping is like a day out, they don't actually need anything, just somewhere to take the kids, and speaking of kids ( although I will be honest, I have a Mcdonalds coffee at the start of every working day ) have you ever visited one of those establishments early in the morning, bins crammed full, one day a week when Mcdonalds litter is not lying all over the place.
I haven't been in a McDonalds for decades (literally). Sure, some people may buy stuff they otherwise wouldn't just because of a day out, but what proportion of total plastic use do you think that is?
The link is, the shelves of these shops are packed with plastic covered goods.
There are other ways to tackle this tragedy,
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/bulk-makert-recycling-zero-waste-first-plastic-free-market-london-hackney-a7924781.html
But these are baby steps, we need to hit everyone hard and do it now.
A question for you, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the biggest tragedy, where would you put poisoning the planet on this scale?
What I'm disagreeing with is that stopping shopping on one day a week is 'hitting everyone hard' at least in relation to the problem of plastics. If we want to have an impact on plastic use, then we need to address that directly. I can't see how one day with the shops shut is (of itself) going to have anything but a marginal impact on plastic use. The shelves of the shops would still be packed with plastic covered goods for people to buy as much as they want to.
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Dear Stranger,
My question again.
A question for you, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the biggest tragedy, where would you put poisoning the planet on this scale?
Gonnagle.
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''by all indicators things are getting better'' this I know.
for Steven Pinker tells me so.
Good luck trying to convince the New Atheists things aren't rosy in the garden.
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My question again.
A question for you, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the biggest tragedy, where would you put poisoning the planet on this scale?
Well that's a way for you to avoid the points I made. Of course "poisoning the planet" is a tragedy but you seem more concerned with twisting it into a 'reason' for your religious ideas about a "day of rest", than actually doing something effective to tackle the problems...
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Dear enki,
The bigger picture!! It is the bigger picture I have been harping on about where as everyone else seems to be going on about loss of wages, the wee Mother being able to make some extra cash at the weekend or we don't want to go back to medieval times and reintroduce some superstitious nonsense.
Having one day a week when we can't just pop out and buy our plastic wrapped consumables is a step forward for the planet, we need to realise that this 24/7 culture is a mistake.
The bigger picture is the poisoning of this planet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/42030979/blue-planet-2-how-plastic-is-slowly-killing-our-sea-creatures-fish-and-birds
We need to do something drastic and quickly, taking away what some on here call, my right to shop anytime, it would make the big shops, your Tesco and ASDA sit up and take notice, it would make the ones who think poisoning the planet is someone else's problem actually start to think about this problem.
Gonnagle.
I couldn't help noting that misquote coming from, that not such a good old boy', Gonners, where I made a point of describing this wee mother working on a Sunday trying to gain a bit more income, because her spouse would more likely to be at home and able to look after the children, we all know how hard it is on the income bringing up children and 'good old Gonners' just happened to miss this bit out. (underlined).
Not exactly the thing we are often minded to expect about about good old christians and the way they're supposed to behave, mind, it's all a part of the bigger picture?
Regards ippy
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Dear Stranger,
Aye right!!
I addressed all your points to the best of my abilities, and how the fuck am I using religious reason, oh that's right, I mentioned God's gift to us, sue me I am a Christian.
Never mind I will watch what happens in Poland, see if their economy crashes because they chose to have one sacred day.
Gonnagle.
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Dear ippy,
Oh sorry did I misquote you, oh dear, dearie dearie me, is this the bit where I am accused of lying because I failed to quote you word for word, God in Govan give me strength, you would rather pick little misquotes instead of engaging in serious debate.
Gonnagle.
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I don't think the Polish economy is going to crash, but unfortunately, they are turning into a right wing country, which wants to ban abortion, stop judges being independent, target immigrants with racist slogans, and so on. A kind of right wing nationalism.
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Dear who gives a monkey's,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43363545
To analyse river sediments, researchers isolated patches of riverbed and measured the concentration within those patches. Some urban "hotspots" contained hundreds of thousands of plastic particles per square metre. This included a site at the River Tame in Denton - a downstream, suburban stretch of river - that contained more than half a million plastic particles per square metre.
Gonnagle.
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Aye right!!
I addressed all your points to the best of my abilities, and how the fuck am I using religious reason, oh that's right, I mentioned God's gift to us, sue me I am a Christian.
You didn't seem to want to face the fact that what you are proposing would be marginal compared with other measures. You've mentioned your ideas about a day off elsewhere. Your motivation would appear to be a day off for everyone first and saving the planet next.
Never mind I will watch what happens in Poland, see if their economy crashes because they chose to have one sacred day.
Has somebody suggested it might? Perhaps we should be more concerned with how much they reduce their plastic use...?
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Poland sounds like a very scary place right now. The ultra-right are on the increase, foreigners are attacked, racism is practically official policy, anti-gay slogans are seen on marches, and 'white Europe' also. I'm not sure about their use of plastics.
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Dear Wigs,
Thank you, but I am not arguing about the way that country is heading, simply on my soapbox regarding this 24/7 culture and how it affects or environment.
Gonnagle.
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thank goodness, a return to restrictive practices on a Sunday is one thing that is vanishingly unlikely to be brought back.
If those who wish such an extremely backward step were to be consistent, then they should campaign for electrical and gas power to be switched off, no public transport to run, there would be no police on duty, no-one stacking shelves ready for Monday, no bakers preparing bread for the Monday sales, etc.
Absolutely right!
It is lovely to have shops open on a Sunday, I wouldn't go back to how it used to be for anything, even though we managed - didn't know any different at the time. Now we do & for most of us, it's better.
Yes we can take our plastic wrappings home with us, I always do anyway whether it's Thursday or Sunday.
Ippy:- "...wee mother working on a Sunday trying to gain a bit more income, because her spouse would more likely to be at home and able to look after the children, we all know how hard it is on the income bringing up children ..."
Quite.
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Dear Stranger,
You didn't seem to want to face the fact that what you are proposing would be marginal compared with other measures. You've mentioned your ideas about a day off elsewhere. Your motivation would appear to be a day off for everyone first and saving the planet next.
No I did face the fact, and in what way is my way marginal, no sorry save the planet first and not a day off for everyone, everyone can't have a day off, I work most weekends myself.
Gonnagle.
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Dear ippy,
Oh sorry did I misquote you, oh dear, dearie dearie me, is this the bit where I am accused of lying because I failed to quote you word for word, God in Govan give me strength, you would rather pick little misquotes instead of engaging in serious debate.
Gonnagle.
Not a minor misquote Gonners.
ippy
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Dear Robbie,
It is lovely to have shops open on a Sunday,
Aye it gives me a rosy glow all over >:(
Gonnagle.
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Dear ippy,
Not a minor misquote Gonners.
All right, sorry but there was nothing underhanded intended.
Gonnagle.
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I'm with you on this one, Gonners.
We live in a 24/7/52 world where mammon is a god. We are encouraged to shop, shop, shop; buy, buy, buy; and work ourselves to death. Then people get themselves into debt, take out a loan, land themselves in more debt which can destroy marriages and lives.
Not that long ago the 60s(?) and before, shops opened at 9am and closed at 6pm or earlier. Everyone managed be they shift workers or not. Then came buying on credit (we used to call it 'the never-never') and folk wanted more and more, but it was a trap and so easy to fall into and the fat controllers knew that.
Anyone who has not read Orwell's 1984 should do so because it helps in understanding how society works.
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Anyone who has not read Orwell's 1984 should do so because it helps in understanding how society works.
So how exactly does Orwell's portrayal of dystopian society in '1984' relate to Sunday trading restrictions in some parts of the UK?
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I'm with you on this one, Gonners.
We live in a 24/7/52 world where mammon is a god. We are encouraged to shop, shop, shop; buy, buy, buy; and work ourselves to death. Then people get themselves into debt, take out a loan, land themselves in more debt which can destroy marriages and lives.
Not that long ago the 60s(?) and before, shops opened at 9am and closed at 6pm or earlier. Everyone managed be they shift workers or not. Then came buying on credit (we used to call it 'the never-never') and folk wanted more and more, but it was a trap and so easy to fall into and the fat controllers knew that.
Anyone who has not read Orwell's 1984 should do so because it helps in understanding how society works.
Nobody says you have to join in Peazey, you can stay in your closed loop of a world, for as long as you want to, I doubt if anyone will mind.
Regards ippy
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Dear ippy,
Apart from the George Orwell part ( which I have never read ) which part of Sweetpeas post do you disagree with, thanks to Gordon and Sane this forum is advert free, go elsewhere on the big WWW and you are bombarded with adverts to buy.
I think Sweetpeas post is bang on, in fact I am almost sure that getting Joe public to part with his hard earned lolly is now a science.
Gonnagle.
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Dear ippy,
Apart from the George Orwell part ( which I have never read ) which part of Sweetpeas post do you disagree with, thanks to Gordon and Sane this forum is advert free, go elsewhere on the big WWW and you are bombarded with adverts to buy.
I think Sweetpeas post is bang on, in fact I am almost sure that getting Joe public to part with his hard earned lolly is now a science.
Gonnagle.
Virtually al of Sweetie's post, I prefer to live in the real world where we use reason to solve problems etc.
The only problem I can see pertaining to this thread is the bunch of control freek posters that seem to think they have some sort of manual/guide of their own that gives them some right to direct or judge others by some sort of mystical standard they think this manual/guide gives them, (Manual/bible).
Apart from the above I can't find anything wrong with Sweet Pea's post.
Regards ippy
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I don't understand a lot of the objections. So shops are open every day but does everyone go shopping every day? I wouldn't have thought so, the only difference now is there's more choice about when we shop.
So many stores are closing down, people buy goods online. Shopping centres with family friendly eateries may well be a novelty in a few years.
As for the great god mammon and materialism, people have always wanted a bit more but usually accept what they cannot have at a particular time - hoping next year maybe, when they've saved up. Not everyone is discontented and gets into massive debt.
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Dear ippy,
Apart from the George Orwell part ( which I have never read ) which part of Sweetpeas post do you disagree with, thanks to Gordon and Sane this forum is advert free, go elsewhere on the big WWW and you are bombarded with adverts to buy.
I think Sweetpeas post is bang on, in fact I am almost sure that getting Joe public to part with his hard earned lolly is now a science.
Gonnagle.
For me, the main part that I disagree with is her depiction of 'the 60s and before' as a time when 'Everyone managed be they shift workers or not.'
I grew up in the 40s and 50s. My mother joined a Christmas Club to afford to buy me school clothes. She never had enough money for anything much. A special meal(and one which, amazingly I still like), was steamed bacon and potatoes. It was when I was in my middle teens that she could actually afford a top loading washing machine. Until then she had used a copper boiler and a wringer. A telephone was something that you rarely used except in emergencies, because it was a street away.Having a TV was almost unheard of(we rented our first one in the very late 50s) and we used an old valve wireless to listen to Radio Luxembourg(anyone remember that station?). She was lucky to afford any new clothes for herself, most of what she had, she was given by other people. My sister, who had severe asthma, was taken by my mother to the children's hospital, sometimes by bus, but often by my mother walking the 3 miles or so with my sister in a pram. Central heating was unknown for us, and if, in winter, we ran out of coal, she used to buy slack, and when we couldn't afford that we used to sit in front of a one element disk electric fire, that is if we had enough shillings to put into the electric meter. Our holidays consisted of days out to the nearby seaside, And, in all this time, my father had a steady but not exactly well paid job as a semi skilled fitter at Ideal Standard Boilers. They struggled, rather than managed.
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Virtually al of Sweetie's post, I prefer to live in the real world where we use reason to solve problems etc.
The only problem I can see pertaining to this thread is the bunch of control freek posters that seem to think they have some sort of manual/guide of their own that gives them some right to direct or judge others by some sort of mystical standard they think this manual/guide gives them, (Manual/bible).
Apart from the above I can't find anything wrong with Sweet Pea's post.
Regards ippy
Ippy, if I'm going to judge anyone it's those I describe as the fat controllers. Have I mentioned the Bible?
enki
For me, the main part that I disagree with is her depiction of 'the 60s and before' as a time when 'Everyone managed be they shift workers or not.'
I'm talking about how we managed in the 60s and before regards Monday to Saturday 9am - 6pm shopping. Otherwise your post is almost a mirror of my own upbringing. My mother had her first top loader washing machine when I was about 10 years old, and like your mother until then she did the washing in a boiler, rinsed the clothes in the bath and then used a wringer. She was washing for six. We had a telephone with a money-box next to it and anyone using the 'phone had to leave a contribution towards the bill.
Yes, buying goods on credit made it easier, but as I say, it could also become a trap.
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thank goodness, a return to restrictive practices on a Sunday is one thing that is vanishingly unlikely to be brought back.
If those who wish such an extremely backward step were to be consistent, then they should campaign for electrical and gas power to be switched off, no public transport to run, there would be no police on duty, no-one stacking shelves ready for Monday, no bakers preparing bread for the Monday sales, etc.
This is either the slippery slope fallacy or the either/or fallacy.
The "Slippery Slope" Fallacy (also called "The Camel's Nose Fallacy") is a non sequitur in which the speaker argues that, once the first step is undertaken, a second or third step will inevitably follow, much like the way one step on a slippery incline will cause a person to fall and slide all the way to the bottom. It is also called "the Camel's Nose Fallacy" because of the image of a sheik who let his camel stick its nose into his tent on a cold night. The idea is that the sheik is afraid to let the camel stick its nose into the tent because once the beast sticks in its nose, it will inevitably stick in its head, and then its neck, and eventually its whole body. However, this sort of thinking does not allow for any possibility of stopping the process. It simply assumes that, once the nose is in, the rest must follow--that the sheik can't stop the progression once it has begun--and thus the argument is a logical fallacy. For instance, if one were to argue, "If we allow the government to infringe upon our right to privacy on the Internet, it will then feel free to infringe upon our privacy on the telephone. After that, FBI agents will be reading our mail. Then they will be placing cameras in our houses. We must not let any governmental agency interfere with our Internet communications, or privacy will completely vanish in the United States." Such thinking is fallacious; no logical proof has been provided yet that infringement in one area will necessarily lead to infringement in another, no more than a person buying a single can of Coca-Cola in a grocery store would indicate the person will inevitably go on to buy every item available in the store, helpless to stop herself. So remember to avoid the slippery slope fallacy; once you use one, you may find yourself using more and more logical fallacies.
Either/Or Fallacy (also called "the Black-and-White Fallacy," "Excluded Middle," "False Dilemma," or "False Dichotomy"): This fallacy occurs when a writer builds an argument upon the assumption that there are only two choices or possible outcomes when actually there are several. Outcomes are seldom so simple. This fallacy most frequently appears in connection to sweeping generalizations: “Either we must ban X or the American way of life will collapse.” "We go to war with Canada, or else Canada will eventually grow in population and overwhelm the United States." "Either you drink Burpsy Cola, or you will have no friends and no social life." Either you must avoid either/or fallacies, or everyone will think you are foolish.
From https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html
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Ippy, if I'm going to judge anyone it's those I describe as the fat controllers. Have I mentioned the Bible?
enki
I'm talking about how we managed in the 60s and before regards Monday to Saturday 9am - 6pm shopping. Otherwise your post is almost a mirror of my own upbringing. My mother had her first top loader washing machine when I was about 10 years old, and like your mother until then she did the washing in a boiler, rinsed the clothes in the bath and then used a wringer. She was washing for six. We had a telephone with a money-box next to it and anyone using the 'phone had to leave a contribution towards the bill.
Yes, buying goods on credit made it easier, but as I say, it could also become a trap.
And we 'manage' or 'struggle' now, depending on our incomes, and how we use those incomes. What on earth has increased shopping hours got to do with anything you've said? If we want to 'shop, shop, shop' we can easily do it between the hours of 9 and 6 now on any weekday. We can also use the internet at any hour of any day for shopping(and, increasingly, we are doing just that). I fail to see that increasing the hours of Sunday shopping is going to have any marked effect on any of the things that you are complaining about.
By increasing the hours when shops are able to open on a Sunday just makes it that bit more convenient for the customer, and, given sensible safeguards for the shop employees, I suggest that that is surely a good thing.
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Dear Wigs,
Thank you, but I am not arguing about the way that country is heading, simply on my soapbox regarding this 24/7 culture and how it affects or environment.
Gonnagle.
I don't think we can address those problems by imposing a monoculture, that would be regressive. Better surely to win hearts and minds through better investment in research and education
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A terribly regressive suggestion.
I really wish that England would pull itself into the 21stC just as Scotland has and allow shops to open as they wish on a Sunday. As a busy person it is pretty common to get frustrated at having to wait until 10am (or even 11am) for shops to open and then use the middle part of the day if there is shopping needed, effectively preventing other stuff from happening.
The Sunday just gone was a good case in point - no chance of getting to the shops on Saturday for all sorts of reasons. Sunday we were in London all day - it would have been good to have been able to pop into the shops at about 9am to sort a few things, but of course they weren't open.
I would like to be able to a plan my shopping around the rest of my life, rather than having to plan the rest of my life around my shopping.
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I don't think we can address those problems by imposing a monoculture, that would be regressive. Better surely to win hearts and minds through better investment in research and education
Are you suggesting there's no such thing as society?
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Are you suggesting there's no such thing as society?
A good society would try to cater for its inherent diversity, not impose the will of the majority as a one size fits all
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A good society would try to cater for its inherent diversity, not impose the will of the majority as a one size fits all
What do you suppose the law does?
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What do you suppose the law does?
Protect people from harm. The law should not be in the business of restricting civil liberties.
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Dear Prof,
And your post opens up that other bug bear of mine, I know I am stating the obvious but Nurses work 12 hour shifts, we are going backwards instead of forward.
As Sweetpea has mentioned, we are all working our ass's off to pay the man, mortgages, pensions, helping our kids get the best education, where is this leisurely society we were all promised.
This is supposed to be the 21st century, everyone should have plenty of time Mon-Fri to go shopping.
I have just had a look on lonely planet, seems the Norwegians are once again way ahead of us in looking after their citizens, major stores are closed, but you can have a leisurely pint.
Those pesky Germans are at it too, shops closed on Sundays but little shops can open.
Bloody Germans and Norwegians, a right bunch of religious numpty's.
Come on GB, lets admit we made a mistake, 24/7 shopping should be banned.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Torridon,
Civil Liberties!! I have just had a quick google, something about the right to life what about the right to have a life, not working every hour just so you can pop in to ASDA at four in the bloody morning.
This 24/7 society is madness and none of the detractors on this thread are willing to admit it.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Torridon,
Civil Liberties!! I have just had a quick google, something about the right to life what about the right to have a life, not working every hour just so you can pop in to ASDA at four in the bloody morning.
This 24/7 society is madness and none of the detractors on this thread are willing to admit it.
Gonnagle.
Yes I was going to ask Torridon whether being able to make people fag for you was a civil liberty.
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Dear Torridon,
Civil Liberties!! I have just had a quick google, something about the right to life what about the right to have a life, not working every hour just so you can pop in to ASDA at four in the bloody morning.
This 24/7 society is madness and none of the detractors on this thread are willing to admit it.
Gonnagle.
Yes but some people might want to work through the night. I'm not disagreeing necessarily with the idea that we need to change things, but at the same time you are arguing for a cut in the work available for people. And it may surprise you to know but the people who work in places like ASDA don't work all the time.
They have things like shifts and rotas. Revolutionary ideas I know, but I understand they do exist.
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Dear Trent,
What I am arguing for is a fairer society, give everyone a chance to stop and smell the roses, oh and highlighting the fact we are polluting this little world and 24/7 shopping is a main contributor.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Trent,
What I am arguing for is a fairer society, give everyone a chance to stop and smell the roses, oh and highlighting the fact we are polluting this little world and 24/7 shopping is a main contributor.
Gonnagle.
I understand that Gonners but I'm not sure giving people less opportunities for employment will lead to a fairer society. As to polluting the world, totally agree - but we need to be more aggressive at changing the suppliers attitudes. Boycott certain goods until they adopt greener packaging. I was watching a bit on some programme yesterday about how the Italians have come up with biodegradable coffee pods - you know the plastic things that you stick in fancy coffee machines that currently last for squillions of years, well they have developed a process where by the pods degrade totally within 56 days I think. We need more of this.
And the last time we had a go round on Sunday trading I was firmly on the side of having a more peaceful day - but I find it hard to argue against others who say why should I not have the opportunity on Sunday to go shopping, so I think we need to fight for a more sustainable way of life and balance that with the need to respect other people's choices in the way they choose to spend their Sunday's - or indeed their middle of the nights.
And just bringing it back to Poland you did specifically ask about Poland politically at the beginning of the thread. Go live there. It is not and never will be the paradise you want because of no trading on a Sunday.
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Dear Trent,
I understand that Gonners but I'm not sure giving people less opportunities for employment will lead to a fairer society. As to polluting the world, totally agree - but we need to be more aggressive at changing the suppliers attitudes. Boycott certain goods until they adopt greener packaging. I was watching a bit on some programme yesterday about how the Italians have come up with biodegradable coffee pods - you know the plastic things that you stick in fancy coffee machines that currently last for squillions of years, well they have developed a process where by the pods degrade totally within 56 days I think. We need more of this.
Less opportunities for employment? I would start with scrapping the 12 hour working day.
more aggressive at changing the suppliers attitudes.
Definitely, lets start with no large stores open on a Sunday, that would hit the profits of the likes of Tesco and Asda, I have read that these stores ( other stores are available ) have a huge influence over suppliers.
well they have developed a process where by the pods degrade totally within 56 days I think.
Totally agree we need more of this, but banning Sunday trading until everybody wakes up and starts thinking about the amount of plastic we throw away each year, and yes I am talking about taking away this civil liberty Torridon speaks of, where is the liberty for this planet, where is the civil liberty for our children, we don't own this planet we hold it in trust for future generations.
And just bringing it back to Poland you did specifically ask about Poland politically at the beginning of the thread. Go live there. It is not and never will be the paradise you want because of no trading on a Sunday.
Fair enough old son :( Using Poland as a role model was wrong, and I will agree, the reason they are doing it has a lot to do with religion.
And if I am honest, my reason is also religious, the Second greatest Commandment according to Our Lord Jesus Christ and I think God gave us this little planet not to destroy but to hold for future generations.
Gonnagle.
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You'll forgive me if I give a slightly sarcastic humpff to the idea that Christianity, the way it is practiced now, in any way promotes care for the planet.
We have leaders of supposedly Christian nations who proclaim their supposed Christianity loud and clear who seem able to walk with your God on the one hand and the God of Mammon on the other.
A religious reason for the restriction of shopping hours does not cut it. Concern for the planet might but I am not convinced enough people are sufficiently bothered when they have all on coping with surviving day to day. I would suggest you aren't going to worry about cling film on your cheap food if it helps you feed your family. I know that is a short term view and that is the real issue we need to address in this world the absolutely frightening reality that the human race so seldom looks beyond the end of its nose.
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You'll forgive me if I give a slightly sarcastic humpff to the idea that Christianity, the way it is practiced now, in any way promotes care for the planet.
It seems to me the humpfing off of Christianity has not resulted in the golden life humpfing off Christianity promised.
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Dear Trent,
I agree with your post, well I don't see much to argue against, and I think you sort of agree with me, and just for your info, Second Greatest commandment, Matthew 22:36-40, I would think you would agree with Our Lord.
Gonnagle.
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It seems to me the humpfing off of Christianity has not resulted in the golden life humpfing off Christianity promised.
Oh for goodness sake read my post before you post crap in return.
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Dear Prof,
And your post opens up that other bug bear of mine, I know I am stating the obvious but Nurses work 12 hour shifts, we are going backwards instead of forward.
But nurses have always worked those kinds of shifts, so we aren't going backwards, merely not going forwards.
But I fail to see what this has to do with being able to shop at a time convenient to fit around the rest of my life, rather than being dictate to that I cannot shop at certain times on a Sunday even if:
1. The shops are happy to open
2. They have staff willing to work those hours (and actually if you have to work a Sunday, surely better to work a full day, rather than just 6 hours)
3. There are customers who want to shop at that time as it best fits in with the other things they want to do with their lives.
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I have friends who run an independent shop situated in a complex of converted barns in the countryside. Theirs is mostly handmade crafts; fellow traders are either artists or traders in vintage/antiques/second hand, everything from clothing to home wares to computer games - can’t get greener than that except not wearing clothes /buying games at all. Sunday is their biggest day for trade as people go to the centre for lunch and then browse the shops, all in a lovely countryside setting.
Yet this ‘day or rest’ idea would cripple their businesses, which operate at tight margins at the best of times. Great.
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Dear Rhiannon,
I have absolutely no problem with that concept, one of the great things about these small traders, they tell you to bring along your own bag, or they have a supply of plastic bags from major stores.
I am not talking about a totalitarian state, lets adopt the Norwegian way or the German way, the closing down of major stores on a Sunday is a wake up call to large retailers and Joe public that we all need to start thinking about the damage we are doing to this planet.
And lets not forget, plastic is only part of the growing problem, their is the palm oil issue which is in most of our products, we are killing our forests to grow this stuff, further, pesticides from farming leaking into our rivers.
The major players and the ordinary citizen need a wake up call, and this wake up needs to be drastic, taking ( as Torridon calls it ) our civil liberty away is a small price to pay for future generations.
Gonnagle.
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I have absolutely no problem with that concept, one of the great things about these small traders, they tell you to bring along your own bag, or they have a supply of plastic bags from major stores.
Actually that isn't the case - or rather certainly not in England.
The law here means that large retailers must charge for plastic bags which small retailers are still allowed to provide them free. So it is not more typically the case that you'll take your own bags to Tescos (you aren't going to buy bunch of bags for your big shop), but will happily accept the 'free' bad from a small retailer to top up your supply (as they don't last forever). For small retailers a bag with the shop's name etc is useful marketing.
I think the law should apply equally to all retailers, as is the case in Wales, and I think Scotland. Specifically that you should be charged for a plastic bag in all shops.
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All of this is very laudable, Gonzo. Where's the evidence that this will reduce plastics usage, or indeed palm oil usage? Surely legislation against the use of both of those works better than a symbolic gesture that doesn't seen to be linked to anything to do with that in other countries?
BTW this Friday, there is a second reading of a Private Members Bill at Westminster seeking to stop unpaid work trials. That seems better to me supporting workers rights than something that has no effect on what you are actually seeking to reduce.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/unpaid-work-trials-snp-mp-stewart-mcdonald-private-members-bill-ban-mooboo-bubble-tea-a7843266.html
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It sounds delightful Rhiannon. It's not going to change, far too many of us approve of Sunday trading.
I was reading a few articles about nurses working twelve hour shifts; the general consensus seems to be that it's a good system because they have more consecutive days off. If it didn't work well, for example if it was dangerous, there would be complaints & changes made. Police and firefighters work very long shifts too followed by a few days off, no doubt there are other professions which do the same.
We all need time of rest and relaxation but it doesn't have be on one particular day. Sunday trading gives everyone more freedom to choose their time out. Shop workers aren't complaining about it either.
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I am not talking about a totalitarian state, lets adopt the Norwegian way or the German way, the closing down of major stores on a Sunday is a wake up call to large retailers and Joe public that we all need to start thinking about the damage we are doing to this planet.
That is total non-sense - unless you can provide evidence that stopping shops opening on Sunday will reduce plastic bag usage.
What we do know is that bringing in charge for bags has had a massive effect. Since its introduction in England plastic bag usage has reduced by 83%. Plus I gather that the more comprehensive charging system in Scotland and Wales has reduced use by over 90%.
Do you really think that stopping shops opening on Sundays is going to reduce use by a similar level. Actually we have the 'control' - Germany - your golden 'no shopping on a Sunday country' - guess what, they are introducing similar charging for bags as we see in the UK.
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Dear Torridon,
Civil Liberties!! I have just had a quick google, something about the right to life what about the right to have a life, not working every hour just so you can pop in to ASDA at four in the bloody morning.
This 24/7 society is madness and none of the detractors on this thread are willing to admit it.
Gonnagle.
You could make the case that modern life is stressful; you could also make the case that life was harder two generations ago. Without getting into that you won't create a better society by restricting freedoms. If you legislate to close shops on a Sunday you are discriminating against people that work Mon - Sat and need Sunday to do their shopping. I don't want to make life harder for people, we need flexibility, choice and diversity, we cannot go back to some 1950's monoculture, that would be regressive.
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Yes I was going to ask Torridon whether being able to make people fag for you was a civil liberty.
Is it better to eliminate employment opportunities for people that can and want to work weekends ?
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Dear Robbie,
Let me start with you my friend,
I was reading a few articles about nurses working twelve hour shifts; the general consensus seems to be that it's a good system because they have more consecutive days off.
Really! I would love to read this article, where as I work with these heroes everyday, now the youngsters don't mind the twelve hour shifts, but 5/10 years down the line, the are tired, tired at the start of their shift, knackered at the end, or OR, they now only work a couple of shifts a week.
Further, 12 hour shifts are Victorian, Nurses, Doctors in my opinion should only work 6 hours a day.
Further, further, I read they are trialing six hour shifts in Scandinavian countries, why, they are looking at better working conditions, how they can make their staff happier, 12 hour shifts should be scrapped, I see Nurses and Doctors flopped over chairs absolutely knackered from a 12 hour nightshift when I start my very lovely ten hour shift in the morning, I am non essential, Doctors and Nurses are front line totally essential.
Gonnagle.
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You could make the case that modern life is stressful; you could also make the case that life was harder two generations ago. Without getting into that you won't create a better society by restricting freedoms. If you legislate to close shops on a Sunday you are discriminating against people that work Mon - Sat and need Sunday to do their shopping. I don't want to make life harder for people, we need flexibility, choice and diversity, we cannot go back to some 1950's monoculture, that would be regressive.
To be fair to Gonzo, I think he isn't, despite the OP, wanting to follow a conservative religious move back to the 50s. His concerns are wider and while I don't see a restriction on Sunday trading as likely to address them, I don't think simply talk about regressive is useful.
If we don't take some actions that in some ways restrictive of public freedom, I suspect we are fucked.
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Dear Sane,
I had a lengthy reply all typed out, but :P
If we don't take some actions that in some ways restrictive of public freedom, I suspect we are fucked.
Thank you.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Prof,
Do you really think that stopping shops opening on Sundays is going to reduce use by a similar level. Actually we have the 'control' - Germany - your golden 'no shopping on a Sunday country' - guess what, they are introducing similar charging for bags as we see in the UK.
Absolutely great, any step to help the planet is needed, Germany taking a leaf out of our book, maybe we should take a leaf out of their book.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Prof,
Absolutely great, any step to help the planet is needed, Germany taking a leaf out of our book, maybe we should take a leaf out of their book.
Gonnagle.
But in one case you have evidence, on the other nothing. Germany's restrictions on Sunday trading are not a reaction to use of plastics, nor is there any evidence that introducing such a law would reduce plastic use
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I have close relatives in the medical profession Gonnagle so not completely ignorant.
There are lots of articles from the RCN, NHS and Nursing Times that give the pros and cons of long shifts.
If the people concerned find the shifts too much they will be changed but many like working that way, tiring though it is, because of the time off. I'm inclined to agree with you that a six hour shift is quite enough for one day - but it's not up to me to choose what hours people work, they have professional bodies who work that out & effect changes if necessary.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608421/
This is an American one:-
https://www.americannursetoday.com/blog/are-12-hour-shifts-safe/
However going back to the OP which was about Sunday trading in Poland, I wonder why the Polish government is going to ban it for two Sundays per month. I can't believe it has anything to do with plastic pollutants.
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Ippy, if I'm going to judge anyone it's those I describe as the fat controllers. Have I mentioned the Bible?
enki
I'm talking about how we managed in the 60s and before regards Monday to Saturday 9am - 6pm shopping. Otherwise your post is almost a mirror of my own upbringing. My mother had her first top loader washing machine when I was about 10 years old, and like your mother until then she did the washing in a boiler, rinsed the clothes in the bath and then used a wringer. She was washing for six. We had a telephone with a money-box next to it and anyone using the 'phone had to leave a contribution towards the bill.
Yes, buying goods on credit made it easier, but as I say, it could also become a trap.
If you wish to live your life like some sort of continual wet weekend of a person, be my guest, I've no wish to stop you and yours following your legal pursuits no matter what I may think, that's how I see things and I don't understand why you and as it seems yours wish to make others conform with your ideas when we don't want to; why.
Regards ippy
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Further, 12 hour shifts are Victorian, Nurses, Doctors in my opinion should only work 6 hours a day.
It must be great living in Fairyland, Gonners. Get real.
My son is a firefighter - he works 12 hour shifts and he wouldn't have it any other way. He works 4 shifts and then he has, not a measly weekend, but 4 - I repeat - 4 whole days off. That's 4 days he can spend at home, 4 days he can go away for a longer break than a piffling weekend. That's 4 days in a row he can spend with his family.
In the space of a month it means that he can spend the equivalent of two weeks with his family, not 8 days, which he would if he worked a conventional five day week. He knows of colleagues who have trained as (say) electricians and who double their income when they are off shift.
So, getting back to NHS workers, you would sooner have the whole system run by part-timers? You do realise, don't you, that when they are not in the hospitals trying to do a job in only half the time available, they will be moonlighting in private hospitals providing private health care on the side and doubling their income?
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Dear Robbie,
However going back to the OP which was about Sunday trading in Poland, I wonder why the Polish government is going to ban it for two Sundays per month. I can't believe it has anything to do with plastic pollutants.
I have already admitted as such, and yes Poland banning Sunday trading I expect has absolutely nothing to do with plastic pollutants, but I expect this will help.
Thank you for your links, they both seem to be American but you talk about governing bodies, for me it should be law that no one, absolutely no one does 12 hour shifts, and I see one of your links mentions patient safety, for me it is a no brainer, I would rather be treated by a well rested Nurse than one that is dead on her feet, one further point, the Scandinavian studies I mentioned, people working only six hour shifts were shown to be more productive.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Harrowby,
So, getting back to NHS workers, you would sooner have the whole system run by part-timers? You do realise, don't you, that when they are not in the hospitals trying to do a job in only half the time available, they will be moonlighting in private hospitals providing private health care on the side and doubling their income?
Cynicism at its best, part timers? no full timers, calling them part timers is your brain washed mind at work, 12 hours is not normal, 12 hours is too long.
And your dig at these professionals, moonlighting!! if they are paid a proper wage, no need for moonlighting.
Gonnagle.
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A friend of mine (he died a few years ago) was a consultant gynaecologist. He told me that the standard NHS contract allowed hospital doctors two sessions a week when they could do private work.
Where does this private work take place, I wonder?
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They rent consulting rooms & facilities, including theatre, in private clinics, sometimes share with another doctor, sometimes on an ad hoc basis, depends on how big the practice. My nearest private hospital is the BMI Sloane in Beckenham. Plenty of NHS Hospitals have their own private patient wing, the Lindo Wing at St Mary's Paddington for example.
NHS consultants can work maximum part time hours (which is nearly full time), so they can treat more private patients. A lot of doctors see quite a few patients from overseas & of course they can consult in the evening.
I know all this because my bro-in-law is an orthopaedic surgeon in London; I also had an uncle (mum's sister's husband, now deceased), who was a consultant physician, not in London.
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Dear Prof,
Absolutely great, any step to help the planet is needed, Germany taking a leaf out of our book, maybe we should take a leaf out of their book.
Gonnagle.
Firstly you have provided no evidence whatsoever that limited shop opening to 6 days a week reduces plastic bag usage - while I have provided very clear evidence that charging for bags is hugely successful in changing behaviour.
But even if you could provide evidence that limiting shop opening to 6 days a week significantly reduces plastic bag usage why should that day be Sunday. Let's ban shop opening on a Tuesday then. Or a Saturday.
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A friend of mine (he died a few years ago) was a consultant gynaecologist. He told me that the standard NHS contract allowed hospital doctors two sessions a week when they could do private work.
Where does this private work take place, I wonder?
They can alternatively use those 2 session a week to conduct research.
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Where does this private work take place, I wonder?
Robbie, I was not asking for information. My question was a rhetorical one directed at Gonnagle.
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For me, the main part that I disagree with is her depiction of 'the 60s and before' as a time when 'Everyone managed be they shift workers or not.'
I grew up in the 40s and 50s. My mother joined a Christmas Club to afford to buy me school clothes. She never had enough money for anything much. A special meal(and one which, amazingly I still like), was steamed bacon and potatoes. It was when I was in my middle teens that she could actually afford a top loading washing machine. Until then she had used a copper boiler and a wringer. A telephone was something that you rarely used except in emergencies, because it was a street away.Having a TV was almost unheard of(we rented our first one in the very late 50s) and we used an old valve wireless to listen to Radio Luxembourg(anyone remember that station?). She was lucky to afford any new clothes for herself, most of what she had, she was given by other people. My sister, who had severe asthma, was taken by my mother to the children's hospital, sometimes by bus, but often by my mother walking the 3 miles or so with my sister in a pram. Central heating was unknown for us, and if, in winter, we ran out of coal, she used to buy slack, and when we couldn't afford that we used to sit in front of a one element disk electric fire, that is if we had enough shillings to put into the electric meter. Our holidays consisted of days out to the nearby seaside, And, in all this time, my father had a steady but not exactly well paid job as a semi skilled fitter at Ideal Standard Boilers. They struggled, rather than managed.
If you take a look at the Monty python 'The Yorkshire Old Men' sketch on YouTube, as a description of how hard it used to be in the old days, you'll find that their description of hard times would have been luxury for me, I had it far harder than they did.
Regards ippy
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Robbie, I was not asking for information. My question was a rhetorical one directed at Gonnagle.
I'm missing the point of the question, rhetorical or otherwise.
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Robbie, I was not asking for information. My question was a rhetorical one directed at Gonnagle.
I'm so sorry HH :-[.
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If you take a look at the Monty python 'The Yorkshire Old Men' sketch on YouTube, as a description of how hard it used to be in the old days, you'll find that their description of hard times would have been luxury for me, I had it far harder than they did.
Regards ippy
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you. ;)
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Like Harrowby, one of my sons is a firefighter. He regularly had 12 hour shifts, and like most of the firefighters he knows, they were happily accepted, because it gave them quite a lot of free time. However, he is now part of an experimental system where he does 24 hour shifts. So far, reaction from the firefighters has been mixed. Obviously it gives them a lot more free time, but 24 hours is a long time to be away from your family. Remember also that it is the law that, except in exceptional circumstances, and for particular jobs, the most that you can work in one week is 48 hours.
Incidentally the average working time per week for full time workers in the UK has come down from 38.1 hours (March to May 1992) to 37.1 hours(Oct to Dec 2017). This compares favourably with the rest of Europe.
I suggest that the rights of workers have made huge strides, especially when you compare the average worker in 1870 working 66 hours a week to less than 40 today, and that is not including the huge change in rights and benefits the average worker enjoys. That is not to say that working conditions and benefits shouldn't be improved, but it is a world away from the idea that we are encouraged to 'work ourselves to death' as SweetPea seems to think.
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And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you. ;)
Shopping on a Sunday! When I were young there were no shops! Or Sundays! We didn't even have a sun. Me mam used to pretend to have things like a notion of cheese, that we could pretend to buy wit' pretend money from job that we had to donate a kidney each day to do. And if we ever thought we had bought a notion of cheese wit pretend money, me mam would ritually disembowel us, hersel, ny father and their children even unto the tenth generations with a notion of a rusty implement
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Didn't do us any 'arm! They were grand old days.
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Shopping on a Sunday! When I were young there were no shops! Or Sundays! We didn't even have a sun. Me mam used to pretend to have things like a notion of cheese, that we could pretend to buy wit' pretend money from job that we had to donate a kidney each day to do. And if we ever thought we had bought a notion of cheese wit pretend money, me mam would ritually dembowel us, hersel, ny father and their children even unto the tenth generations with a notion of a rusty implement
I like this, not a lot mind, but I like this. ;)
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Didn't do us any 'arm! They were grand old days.
I couldn't afford a hole in the ground.
Regards ippy.
P S Bloody Monty Python its stopped me taking a lot of things seriously that I should be taking seriously.
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Never mind a Pole to climb out of it!
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To be fair to Gonzo, I think he isn't, despite the OP, wanting to follow a conservative religious move back to the 50s. His concerns are wider and while I don't see a restriction on Sunday trading as likely to address them, I don't think simply talk about regressive is useful.
If we don't take some actions that in some ways restrictive of public freedom, I suspect we are fucked.
If consumerism is the problem, that is a problem of hearts and minds and expectations and I don't see that closing shops would reduce consumerism, it would just add more irritations into an already stressful modern life; people would still consume as much but their shopping patterns would have to alter to meet the inconvenience. To win people over means taking the public with you through campaigning and education
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If consumerism is the problem, that is a problem of hearts and minds and expectations and I don't see that closing shops would reduce consumerism, it would just add more irritations into an already stressful modern life; people would still consume as much but their shopping patterns would have to alter to meet the inconvenience. To win people over means taking the public with you through campaigning and education
I've been wondering for years, why haven't sucessive governments been pressing the plastics industry to produce biodegradable plastic for as many applications that make as much sense as possible?
We manage to solve so many other problems, surly biodegradable plastic isn't an unsolvable, the local Co-Op has had biodegradable plastic baggs for years.
ippy
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If consumerism is the problem, that is a problem of hearts and minds and expectations and I don't see that closing shops would reduce consumerism, it would just add more irritations into an already stressful modern life; people would still consume as much but their shopping patterns would have to alter to meet the inconvenience. To win people over means taking the public with you through campaigning and education
I don't think changing Sunday opening hours will make the difference either, which is what I said in the post you replied to. I just don't think there is time to worry about winning hearts and minds here, and besides on one level I think they are already won, However leadership is about doing things and in order to avoid a global tragedy of the commons, I don't see getting people to gradually change behaviour is going to deliver here.
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I couldn't afford a hole in the ground.
Regards ippy.
P S Bloody Monty Python its stopped me taking a lot of things seriously that I should be taking seriously.
'At Last the 1948 Show', I think you'll find.
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I don't think changing Sunday opening hours will make the difference either, which is what I said in the post you replied to. I just don't think there is time to worry about winning hearts and minds here, and besides on one level I think they are already won, However leadership is about doing things and in order to avoid a global tragedy of the commons, I don't see getting people to gradually change behaviour is going to deliver here.
I'd agree with that. But how can disruptive change be effected without public consent. Trust in the political class and experts is very low, see how the public voted Leave despite the all warnings from experts and politicians.
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I'd agree with that. But how can disruptive change be effected without public consent. Trust in the political class and experts is very low, see how the public voted Leave despite the all warnings from experts and politicians.
Would a tax on all supermarkets based on their use of plastic introduced by the current govt be without public consent? Govts legislate on issues not in their manifesto all the time in reaction to events. They don't need to have had it in their manifesto at election, and I would suggest bold decisions here would be more likely to get public support rather than 'discussions to set a target when full findings become available' or some such.
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Watching Planet Earth shapes public opinion more than reports and politicians.
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If the relatively little in overall terms Co-Op can produce biodegradable plastic bags surly this would make it the best answer to the problem by compelling manufacturers to make most plastics biodegradable, to a greater or lesser degree, dependent on application, say the maximum plastic should last before a complete bio degrade time of say 30 years. (Or whatever is agreed as the most practical).
I'm also sure there must be a case for non-biodegradable plastics for some applications, how about fines for not disposing these particular plastics in conformity with a law, such as special centres specifically set up to deal with these plastics legally, in a similar way we deal with the disposal of refrigerant from old fridge/freezers.
It would then be a good thing to try to clear as much plastic waste from everywhere we can after the above, I've no Idea how that could be funded if in fact it was, poorer countries unable to fund such an operation etc., etc.
Regards ippy
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Plastic bags are just one issue. I’m staggered by the micro plastics problem, a good deal of which is caused by acrylic fleece. Most of us I would guess own fleece products - jumpers of course, outdoor kit, pyjamas, dressing gowns, slippers, blankets and throws... fleece is durable, easy to wash, quick drying and useful. And I didn’t realise until recently how it sheds fibres during washing that are too small to be filtered out, that end up in our rivers and seas, in our drinking water and our food. We have no clue what they do to the creatures we share the planet with, or our own bodies. And I can’t even begin to think how this gets cleared up. I think it’s probably too late.
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Dear Rhiannon,
I don't think it is to late, but the world has to wake up to how serious the problem is, how do we do this, we need to hit the big guns, Tesco, ASDA, McDonalds, now how do we do this?
Once we have the message across, then I am sure we can figure out a way to start clearing up the mess we have made.
Gonnagle.
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To whom it may concern,
We are also up against,
Dow Chemical. Global sales: $49 billion. ...
Lyondell Basell. Global sales: $33 billion. ...
Exxon Mobil. Global sales: $236 billion. ...
SABIC. Global sales: $35.4 billion. ...
INEOS. Global sales: $40 billion. ...
BASF. Global sales: $63.7 billion. ...
ENI. Global sales: $61.6 billion. ...
http://www.bpf.co.uk/industry/default.aspx
So the choice is, do we choose between, profit, jobs or the Planet?
Gonnagle.
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Not just profit, life style. What we eat, where and how often we travel. The problem isn't companies, it is humanity.
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Yes, I'd echo that.
It is easy to blame multinationals. Sure, big firms might be making fat profits; but they are only in business at all because we provide the demand for their goods and services.
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Plastic bags are just one issue. I’m staggered by the micro plastics problem, a good deal of which is caused by acrylic fleece. Most of us I would guess own fleece products - jumpers of course, outdoor kit, pyjamas, dressing gowns, slippers, blankets and throws... fleece is durable, easy to wash, quick drying and useful. And I didn’t realise until recently how it sheds fibres during washing that are too small to be filtered out, that end up in our rivers and seas, in our drinking water and our food. We have no clue what they do to the creatures we share the planet with, or our own bodies. And I can’t even begin to think how this gets cleared up. I think it’s probably too late.
My reference was for almost the whole lot of plastic goods to be biodegradable, not just plastic bags.
ippy
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I think that we are looking rather narrowly at plastic trees and not seeing the plastic wood. I am sitting in my kitchen and using a laptop which is made largely of plastic. All that I can see is made from some form of plastic or other - the keyboard, the body, the screen. Cables contain metal wires which are encased and protected by plastic. My kettle, my coffee maker, many of my utensils and appliances contain large amounts of plastics of one kind or another. As does my television and my soundbar.
Plastic is not just packaging and bags, it is ubiquitous.
CDs and DVDs are made of plastic. Money is made of plastic. A significant proportion of the modern motor car is plastic. Clothes are made from plastic.
Without plastic much of our modern way of life would be untenable and certainly unaffordable. There is no way that a simplistic "ban plastics" strategy would even begin to be workable.
What we really need is a approach which recycles plastic materials effectively. A start would be to stop perceiving a product which when treated carelessly can create so much damage as a low cost disposable commodity. The recent refusal of China to take any more waste for disposal/recycling should be seen as a wake-up call for joined up thinking.
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Dear Harrowby,
A wake up call, what kind of wake up call, I am absolutely sure that if I popped into my local and asked them "what do you think of those pesky Chinese refusing to take our rubbish" I would be met with blank stares.
The wake up call needs to affect Joe public in some way, affect his precious civil liberties in some way.
Our kids are very savvy about this catastrophe we are creating, but adults are far to busy paying mortgages, working more and more hours and wondering who is going to win the next Z factor.
It is us who have created this tragedy, so it should be us who pay, so what kind of wake up call would it take, a tax on all things plastic, no that would only affect the poor, it has to be something which affects us all.
Gonnagle.
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Getting back to Sunday trading, I was surprised to discover the Specsavers franchise, where my husband and have our eye tests, are open from 10.30 am - 4pm on a Sunday. Actually that will be quite convenient for us, our new specs are due for collection tomorrow, but as Saturdays are so busy, picking them up on Sunday would be much more convenient. That is providing there is no white stuff falling from the sky, as I don't like to drive in snow.
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I see that Stewart McDonald's bill as regard unpaid trial shifts was talked out by govt