Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Faith Sharing Area => Topic started by: Grace of God on April 02, 2018, 02:20:35 PM
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It seems many believe it is and many believe it is not..
what's your opinion...
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Can a Christian reject Christ and all He is? Yes. Having done so, can he, once more, after due consideration, return to Christ and accept His salvation? Again, yes. Christ does not put a time limit on His grace.
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yeah my mistake, I realise now anyone can answer...lol
In my opinion scripture actually supports OSAS...
So once saved you can do any evil deed after and still go to heaven?
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OSAS is the flip-side of Calvinism's doctrine of election, which I absolutely reject as the antithesis of Christianity. As a thorough-going Arminian, I reject OSAS out of hand too.
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I too reject the doctrine. Grace of God, your op is quite reasonable but would have been better in Faith Sharing section. There's still time to move it.
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So once saved you can do any evil deed after and still go to heaven?
In essence yes... it is based on Grace, which is undeserved favour...
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Moderator: quoted content removed.
Eh?
The whole premis of grace is a one-sided effort on God's part.
He loves us because He loves us.
It's up to us whether we want to return that love.
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Moderator: quoted content removed.
The usual considered, nuanced reponse from LR. I think even a thorough-going Calvinist who believed in OSAS (which I am not and don't) would say that the sign of being saved is a sincere attempt to live morally. You might slip from time to time, and need to repent, but someone who went around stealing, fornicating and bullying and thought it was ok because he was saved and couldn't lose their salvation would get short shrift from a Calvinist, who would say that they are not really saved at all. That attitude is called antinomianism, and it is generally regarded as a serious error. St Augustine of Hippo may have said "Love God and do as you please", but the catch is that loving God comes first, and if you do love God, you will want to do what pleases God.
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Theusual considered, nuanced reponse from LR. I think even a thorough-going Calvinist who believed in OSAS (which I am not and don't) would say that the sign of being saved is a sincere attempt to live morally. You might slip from time to time, and need to repent, but someone who went around stealing, fornicating and bullying and thought it was ok because he was saved and couldn't lose their salvation would get short shrift from a Calvinist, who would say that they are not really saved at all. That attitude is called antinomianism, and it is generally regarded as a serious error. St Augustine of Hippo may have said "Love God and do as you please", but the catch is that loving God comes first, and if you do love God, you will want to do what pleases God.
It's also the no true Scotsman fallacy
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It's also the no true Scotsman fallacy
What is? Explain.
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What is? Explain.
If they continue to sin after being saved, you just say they were not really saved at all.
The wrong sort of saved.
If you are saved and that's for all time, then YES you can then commit as many sins as often as you like without losing this being saved.
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If they continue to sin after being saved, you just say they were not really saved at all.
The wrong sort of saved.
If you are saved and that's for all time, then YES you can then commit as many sins as often as you like without losing this being saved.
Read my post again, because you've obviously (and probably wilfully) misunderstood it.
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Read my post again, because you've obviously (and probably wilfully) misunderstood it.
If they continue in the wrong way you just say they were not saved.
If someone does believe once saved always saved, then they must also acknowledge that a person can do what they like once saved.
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Moderator:
This thread has been reported as being better suited to the Faith Sharing Area, and on reading the thread I see that other have noted this.
I'll move it to there, but will first need to remove a small number of posts that would be outwith the ethos of the FSA so will lock the thread temporarily while I do this.
Update: I've removed some posts, such as those noting that this thread would be best suited in FSA (where it now is) plus some that were clearly outwith the ethos of this particular board: I've left a couple for now that are perhaps borderline and will review the thread again tomorrow.
Can I just remind anyone adding to this thread that they should do so in line with the 'About This Board' sticky.
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It seems many believe it is and many believe it is not..
what's your opinion...
Unscriptual.
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Glad to see this thread has been moved to the right place.
Ad-orientum, Grace of God obviously does believe there is scriptural for the 'once saved always saved' doctrine so, as always, it is down to interpretation of the scriptures. However first of all one has to believe in the inerrancy of scripture which I don't though I see the wisdom; I'm with StevenH on this one (he said, "...the sign of being saved is a sincere attempt to live morally. You might slip from time to time, and need to repent"...Not that 'slipping' means human error to varying degrees but not things like serial killing :o), possibly agree with you though you've explained what it is you don't believe but not what you do.
What I am quite sure of is that God doesn't let any one of us go easily and He will always forgive and welcome us back if we stumble but that's not the same as OSAS. It's also not something I can prove yet it is something I am sure of. I'm certain in my own mind that God won't let go of me but I cannot be complacent about it and behave badly because that would be an insult to God.
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Unscriptual.
Not entirely.
There are a few Scriptures which might bear interpretation as OSAS, as_O.
Equally, those texts in context may not support this view.
However, the overwhelming scriptural evidence would, IMO, arguer against it.
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Moderator: quoted content removed.
Eh?
The whole premis of grace is a one-sided effort on God's part.
He loves us because He loves us.
It's up to us whether we want to return that love.
Amen, it is all about what was done on our behalf..
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Moderator: quoted content removed.
The usual considered, nuanced reponse from LR. I think even a thorough-going Calvinist who believed in OSAS (which I am not and don't) would say that the sign of being saved is a sincere attempt to live morally. You might slip from time to time, and need to repent, but someone who went around stealing, fornicating and bullying and thought it was ok because he was saved and couldn't lose their salvation would get short shrift from a Calvinist, who would say that they are not really saved at all. That attitude is called antinomianism, and it is generally regarded as a serious error. St Augustine of Hippo may have said "Love God and do as you please", but the catch is that loving God comes first, and if you do love God, you will want to do what pleases God.
So are you saying once you are saved you must live a perfect sinless life??
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If they continue in the wrong way you just say they were not saved.
If someone does believe once saved always saved, then they must also acknowledge that a person can do what they like once saved.
Grace does mean technically you can do as you please once saved but it does not mean you would...
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Unscriptual.
what of romans 8 vs 1
there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...
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what of romans 8 vs 1
there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...
Romans 8 is my "desert island" chapter, the chapter I'd take with me to that fabled desert island.
The question I'd ask, though, is this;
What of those who have made a sincwere commitment, shown all the signs of the fruit of the Spirit, even led others to Christ - yet for some reason or other, have lost their faith.
Are they still saved?
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So are you saying once you are saved you must live a perfect sinless life??
No, I specifically said that you might slip from time to time. You would, however, obviously be trying to live a better life. As I've said, I don't believe in OSAS, but it is true from the Arminian point of view too that a real Christian will be trying, however imperfectly, to live a good life (which is not to say that no-one else does).
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If they continue in the wrong way you just say they were not saved.
If someone does believe once saved always saved, then they must also acknowledge that a person can do what they like once saved.
Yes, they can - but what they like will be trying to please God, if they're really saved.
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what of romans 8 vs 1
there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...
Irrelevant. As long as you are "in Christ Jesus", there is indeed no condemnation, but that says nothing about those who fall away. A thorough-going Arminian can happily accept that verse.
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I found this which seems to be quite a good explanation of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine with scriptural back up:-
https://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm
I'm not convinced though am sure, as I said before, God doesn't let any of us go that easily.
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Romans 8 is my "desert island" chapter, the chapter I'd take with me to that fabled desert island.
The question I'd ask, though, is this;
What of those who have made a sincwere commitment, shown all the signs of the fruit of the Spirit, even led others to Christ - yet for some reason or other, have lost their faith.
Are they still saved?
Yes they are still saved, on accepting Jesus your sins are covered from there on in God keeps no record of your sins just sees the blood of Jesus that paid for you..
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Yes they are still saved, on accepting Jesus your sins are covered from there on in God keeps no record of your sins just sees the blood of Jesus that paid for you..
That stinks of Calvinist election.
Come off it; in that scenario, a person who sincerely commits to Christ thrn loses their faith along ther way - even rejects it - is guaranteed a place in eternity even if he becomes an unrepentant mass murderer?
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That stinks of Calvinist election.
Come off it; in that scenario, a person who sincerely commits to Christ thrn loses their faith along ther way - even rejects it - is guaranteed a place in eternity even if he becomes an unrepentant mass murderer?
Well said.
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That stinks of Calvinist election.
Come off it; in that scenario, a person who sincerely commits to Christ thrn loses their faith along ther way - even rejects it - is guaranteed a place in eternity even if he becomes an unrepentant mass murderer?
I reject ASOS as well, but this is not a good argument. It reminds me of the nonsense always brought against pacifists - "What would you do if a maniac was trying to rape your sister?". In both cases, you think up a highy unlikely and atypical scenario, and think you've demolished the other person's argument.
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I reject ASOS as well, but this is not a good argument. It reminds me of the nonsense always brought against pacifists - "What would you do if a maniac was trying to rape your sister?". In both cases, you think up a highy unlikely and atypical scenario, and think you've demolished the other person's argument.
The usual answer is that they were never saved in the first place, which creates more problems, unless one hapoens to be hardcore Calvanist in which case they would argue no sin could cause a person to lose their salvation, which is bollocks of course.
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I reject ASOS as well, but this is not a good argument. It reminds me of the nonsense always brought against pacifists - "What would you do if a maniac was trying to rape your sister?". In both cases, you think up a highy unlikely and atypical scenario, and think you've demolished the other person's argument.
Of course the argumen is both hypotetical and simplistic: it illustrates the point, though.
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That stinks of Calvinist election.
Come off it; in that scenario, a person who sincerely commits to Christ thrn loses their faith along ther way - even rejects it - is guaranteed a place in eternity even if he becomes an unrepentant mass murderer?
not sure anyone who professed to being a Christian would ever become a mass murderer, I would certainly question there salvation any way but either the blood of Jesus covered all sins for all time for every believer or it did not...
What the argument does open if we take it down the route of losing salvation, how many and of what magnitude of sin does it take to negate the blood she for sins??
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not sure anyone who professed to being a Christian would ever become a mass murderer, I would certainly question there salvation any way but either the blood of Jesus covered all sins for all time for every believer or it did not...
What the argument does open if we take it down the route of losing salvation, how many and of what magnitude of sin does it take to negate the blood she for sins??
There is no sin, no amount of sin, which cannot be forgiven through Calvary (save one, but that's another thread)
But to say that if a person who is truly commited to Christ, shows every eveidence of the fruits of the Spirit, and even leads others to Christ, yet, at some point rejects his or her faith is still saved, makes Calvary a whole lot cheaper than it is.
And, yes, I knowe of such a person - now spending time at 'her majesty's' pleasure for a crime - not murder or assault, but a crime for which he is unrepentant.
Is his salvation secure even though he rejects it?
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not sure anyone who professed to being a Christian would ever become a mass murderer, I would certainly question there salvation any way but either the blood of Jesus covered all sins for all time for every believer or it did not...
What the argument does open if we take it down the route of losing salvation, how many and of what magnitude of sin does it take to negate the blood she for sins??
I feel the shadow of "Confessions of a Justified Sinner" hanging over this thread. Never mind St Paul, who continually contradicted himself. Never mind the gospels, which are all over the bloody place.
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I feel the shadow of "Confessions of a Justified Sinner" hanging over this thread. Never mind St Paul, who continually contradicted himself. Never mind the gospels, which are all over the bloody place.
Can I remind you that this is the faith sharing area. Why are you trying to derail this thread?
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what's your opinion...
The Lord Jesus talks in John 3 about the need to be born again spiritually. Like the natural birth, I believe this only happens once and it is this which makes someone a Christian.
How the Christian lives thereafter will affect their reward, but I don't believe that their salvation is affected.
Ultimately, the Christian is in a relationship with God. I don't believe that I can lose my salvation any more than I can stop being the son of my parents. Nothing I do can change the latter although the way I live may affect the quality of the relationship. As in the natural, same for the spiritual, in my opinion.
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John 3 is about the sacrament of baptism.