Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 09:32:13 AM

Title: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 09:32:13 AM
with facial tattoos, facial piercings, should they reduce or stop their benefits..
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Steve H on April 08, 2018, 09:37:12 AM
Don't be silly.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: wigginhall on April 08, 2018, 09:56:28 AM
Nonsense.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 10:33:16 AM
Everyone who is below pensionable age and able bodied should do some form of work for the benefits they receive, imo.

Our Down's Syndrome son (33), who is quite severely mentally disabled, works three full days a week, one of them in Subway.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Aruntraveller on April 08, 2018, 10:51:49 AM
Everyone who is below pensionable age and able bodied should do some form of work for the benefits they receive, imo.

Our Down's Syndrome son (33), who is quite severely mentally disabled, works three full days a week, one of them in Subway.

Which benefits are you talking about in particular? And what sort of jobs are you talking about in particular?

Are you including those already in full time employment who currently receive state benefits?
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: jeremyp on April 08, 2018, 11:05:41 AM
with facial tattoos, facial piercings, should they reduce or stop their benefits..
Why would somebody be unemployable just because they have got some facial tattoos and piercings?

If somebody is unemployable (for any reason), should we cut off their only means of financial support and watch them die in the street?
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 11:22:31 AM
Why would somebody be unemployable just because they have got some facial tattoos and piercings?

If somebody is unemployable (for any reason), should we cut off their only means of financial support and watch them die in the street?

They would probably be unemployable for some white collar jobs.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 01:00:13 PM
Why would somebody be unemployable just because they have got some facial tattoos and piercings?

If somebody is unemployable (for any reason), should we cut off their only means of financial support and watch them die in the street?

Shoot them. It’s the Christian way to teach self responsibility.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: jeremyp on April 08, 2018, 01:04:25 PM
Shoot them. It’s the Christian way to teach self responsibility.
They'll certainly stop malingering after that.

Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Maeght on April 08, 2018, 01:08:19 PM
They would probably be unemployable for some white collar jobs.

Why?
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: jeremyp on April 08, 2018, 01:11:13 PM
Why?

Because people love judging books by their covers.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 01:41:23 PM
Why?

Because they look awful.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: jeremyp on April 08, 2018, 01:43:32 PM
Because they look awful.

That's a matter of subjective opinion.

Why does somebody who has a nose piercing look more awful than a woman who has ear piercings? I would suggest it is merely a matter of culture.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Steve H on April 08, 2018, 01:46:15 PM
Because people love judging books by their covers.
In the case of tattoos, that's not unreasonable, since the person chose to have them done.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: jeremyp on April 08, 2018, 01:47:25 PM
In the case of tattoos, that's not unreasonable, since the person chose to have them done.
What does that tell you about the person other than they like tattoos?
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 01:48:15 PM
What does that tell you about the person other than they like tattoos?

That they are stupid to have them all over their face!
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: jeremyp on April 08, 2018, 01:50:06 PM
That they are stupid to have them all over their face!
It's only stupid because other people are wont to judge them as of unsound character.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 01:51:48 PM
It's only stupid because other people are wont to judge them as of unsound character.

Hmmmmmmmm!
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Steve H on April 08, 2018, 02:03:46 PM
Would you buy a used car from this man? (http://badtattooidea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/top_10_most_tattooed_people_in_the_world_Rick_Genest_The_Zombie_Boy.jpg)
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 02:26:17 PM
Would you buy a used car from this man? (http://badtattooidea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/top_10_most_tattooed_people_in_the_world_Rick_Genest_The_Zombie_Boy.jpg)

NO!!!! :o But then I would never buy a used car from anywhere but a reliable garage.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 03:58:53 PM
Would you buy a used car from this man? (http://badtattooidea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/top_10_most_tattooed_people_in_the_world_Rick_Genest_The_Zombie_Boy.jpg)

If he worked for an authorised dealer, yes.

I like both tattoos and piercings. I went out with a guy last year who had a gallopping horse tattooed on the side of his head.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Maeght on April 08, 2018, 04:05:57 PM
Because they look awful.

That's about an attitude, and surely, like many other things these days, we should be working to change attitudes. People should be judged by their abilities and shouldn't be excluded from employment if they are capable of doing the job.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 04:44:11 PM
That's about an attitude, and surely, like many other things these days, we should be working to change attitudes. People should be judged by their abilities and shouldn't be excluded from employment if they are capable of doing the job.

We shouldn't be judging people who are different through no fault of their own, but when they deliberately make themselves look awful with tatoos all over their faces, it is hard not to feel revulsion.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 08, 2018, 04:49:06 PM
We shouldn't be judging people who are different through no fault of their own, but when they deliberately make themselves look awful with tatoos all over their faces, it is hard not to feel revulsion.

They 'looks awful' in your opinion. Should I be able to refuse jobs to someone who wears a turban because they have chosen to 'look awful' to me?
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 08, 2018, 04:50:11 PM
NO!!!! :o But then I would never buy a used car from anywhere but a reliable garage.
And what if they worked for a reliable garage?
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 04:53:46 PM
We shouldn't be judging people who are different through no fault of their own, but when they deliberately make themselves look awful with tatoos all over their faces, it is hard not to feel revulsion.

Which says plenty about you rather than anything about people who get tattoos.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 04:57:52 PM
They 'looks awful' in your opinion. Should I be able to refuse jobs to someone who wears a turban because they have chosen to 'look awful' to me?

A turban can be removed, a tattoo can't. 
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 08, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
A turban can be removed, a tattoo can't.
So? I the person chooses to wear it, then I am still surely on the logic of your position able to say it looks awful to me, therefore I won't hire them?
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 05:01:52 PM
So? I the person chooses to wear it, then I am still surely on the logic of your position able to say it looks awful to me, therefore I won't hire them?

I think people wrecking their appearance is crazy, I realise others don't see it my way, so we shall have to agree to differ.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 08, 2018, 05:07:35 PM
I think people wrecking their appearance is crazy, I realise others don't see it my way, so we shall have to agree to differ.
It's your opinion that they are 'wrecking their appearance'. And this 'we shall have to agree to differ' is giving your views a false equivalence to people making arguments. It would allow me to say as pointed out previously that all red heads are paedophiles, and if people cite arguments and facts against it, just to claim both views are valid because 'we shall have to agree to differ'.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 05:10:28 PM
It's your opinion that they are 'wrecking their appearance'. And this 'we shall have to agree to differ' is giving your views a false equivalence to people making arguments. It would allow me to say as pointed out previously that all red heads are paedophiles, and if people cite arguments and facts against it, just to claim both views are valid because 'we shall have to agree to differ'.

Don't be silly, no one can help having red hair, being left handed, homosexual etc. You can help disfiguring yourself by having a tattoo on your face.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 08, 2018, 05:13:17 PM
Don't be silly, no one can help having red hair, being left handed, homosexual etc. You can help disfiguring yourself by having a tattoo on your face.
That's irrelevant to the point that we 'shall have to agree to disagree'  allows all positions a false equivalence. And then it's just you asserting your value judgement again.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: floo on April 08, 2018, 05:16:44 PM
That's irrelevant to the point that we 'shall have to agree to disagree'  allows all positions a false equivalence. And then it's just you asserting your value judgement again.

I say what I think as does every other member on this forum, sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 08, 2018, 05:24:26 PM
I say what I think as does every other member on this forum, sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't.
And no one is denying that is what happens, it's just your approach means that no matter what points are made, then every position is given the same value. Those who believe that the moon landings are a conspiracy are given the same value as those who think they happened.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Maeght on April 08, 2018, 05:39:33 PM
We shouldn't be judging people who are different through no fault of their own, but when they deliberately make themselves look awful with tatoos all over their faces, it is hard not to feel revulsion.

Its your opinion that they look awful. Its not a fact.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 05:59:33 PM
Don't be silly, no one can help having red hair, being left handed, homosexual etc. You can help disfiguring yourself by having a tattoo on your face.

‘Disfiguring yourself’ is emotive language and only reflects your subjective opinion. People have a right to self expression. They hurt nobody.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:14:43 PM
Nonsense.

so you think it is ok to make yourself unemployable and still expect to get benefits...ok
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Everyone who is below pensionable age and able bodied should do some form of work for the benefits they receive, imo.

Our Down's Syndrome son (33), who is quite severely mentally disabled, works three full days a week, one of them in Subway.

I agree and very well done to your son..
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 06:17:36 PM
so you think it is ok to make yourself unemployable and still expect to get benefits...ok

Having tattoos doesn’t stop anyone from being employed or doing a job. The only thing making them unemployable is the up-their-own-arse attitudes of prejudiced dipsticks.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:18:01 PM
Which benefits are you talking about in particular? And what sort of jobs are you talking about in particular?

Are you including those already in full time employment who currently receive state benefits?

it would probably stop them getting employed in retail or banks, anything that means meeting the public I guess, something like jsa but any benefit that required actively seeking employment.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:19:51 PM
Why would somebody be unemployable just because they have got some facial tattoos and piercings?

If somebody is unemployable (for any reason), should we cut off their only means of financial support and watch them die in the street?

it would effect their chance of employment, should they receive benefits when they are not helping themselves..
they could be reduced and t not die..
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:22:31 PM
They would probably be unemployable for some white collar jobs.

and quite possibly retail...
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:23:42 PM
Shoot them. It’s the Christian way to teach self responsibility.

A tad extreme..lol but they do perhaps need teaching somehow..
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:26:15 PM
It's only stupid because other people are wont to judge them as of unsound character.

it's stupid because
A/ it cost them good money to have them done, money which is supposed to house and feed them, if they have money for tattoos perhaps they have to much money..
B/ it is stupid because they must know it effects their chances of work..
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:28:20 PM
I think people wrecking their appearance is crazy, I realise others don't see it my way, so we shall have to agree to differ.

I agree...
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:29:59 PM
‘Disfiguring yourself’ is emotive language and only reflects your subjective opinion. People have a right to self expression. They hurt nobody.

Shouldn't they be aware that it may bother others??
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 06:31:22 PM
it would probably stop them getting employed in retail or banks, anything that means meeting the public I guess, something like jsa but any benefit that required actively seeking employment.

I am served by people with tattoos and piercings in Tesco, fashion stores, local cafes, restaurants and pubs, haberdashery store, tyre service place, gift shops, beauty therapists...FTR I live in a middle class rural area. All market towns and Joules catalogue.

‘The public’ are far more accepting than you think.

Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 06:33:14 PM
Shouldn't they be aware that it may bother others??

Shouldn’t ‘others’ lose their prejudices and grow up? Tattoos and piercings are mainstream. Get over it.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 06:47:01 PM
Shouldn’t ‘others’ lose their prejudices and grow up? Tattoos and piercings are mainstream. Get over it.

oh I see , so if they wanted to stand in the store naked or even have sex in the store i should get more broad minded..lol
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 08, 2018, 06:48:35 PM
oh I see , so if they wanted to stand in the store naked or even have sex in the store i should get more broad minded..lol
Yep, having a nose piercing is the same as having sex in the store.


Note if you are having sex in while trying to sell me a car, then I suspect I will find you distracted from my questions.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Grace of God on April 08, 2018, 07:00:15 PM
Yep, having a nose piercing is the same as having sex in the store.


Note if you are having sex in while trying to sell me a car, then I suspect I will find you distracted from my questions.

if it is there choice and we have to "live" with it what is the difference??
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Robbie on April 08, 2018, 07:02:29 PM
with facial tattoos, facial piercings, should they reduce or stop their benefits..

Much as I deplore such things facial tattoos and piercings do not stop people being employable.  Get real.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 08, 2018, 07:03:43 PM
if it is there choice and we have to "live" with it what is the difference??
Well apart from ignoring the second sentence of my pist, because freedom for someone else if it doesn't affect things is the better argument for living togetgert. Else you support racism if most people agree with it because you are using an argumentum ad populum.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Robbie on April 08, 2018, 07:04:43 PM
Would you buy a used car from this man? (http://badtattooidea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/top_10_most_tattooed_people_in_the_world_Rick_Genest_The_Zombie_Boy.jpg)

I have to say, "No". He would terrify me - but never seen anyone like him except on telly and that was someone in a gang in Mexico.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Robbie on April 08, 2018, 07:05:45 PM
I think people wrecking their appearance is crazy, I realise others don't see it my way, so we shall have to agree to differ.

I'm on your side on this one but it has a name, "Body dysmorphia".  Still, wouldn't stop someone being employable.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Robbie on April 08, 2018, 07:08:04 PM
it would effect their chance of employment, should they receive benefits when they are not helping themselves..
they could be reduced and t not die..


GofG, go to the Job Centre (somewhere I'm sure you've never been;  I have accompanied a couple of people there in the course of my work) - you will see JobCentre employees with plenty of tattoos and piercings!  So such things do not stop people getting jobs.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 07:14:24 PM
I'm on your side on this one but it has a name, "Body dysmorphia".  Still, wouldn't stop someone being employable.

Not everyone who gets tatts and piercings does so as a result of dysmorphia. It’s mainstream, except for in its most extreme forms, and even then is becoming more commonplace now; it’s more of a ‘so what’ than ‘look at that’.

I’d be more bothered if my girls bleached their hair than got tatts. I suspect the latter is more likely anyway.

As an aside, the many-tattooed bloke I was dating also happened to be a part of the traveller community. He put together being tattooed with a prejudice against travellers. It suggests that mistrust of tattooed people has its origins in good old racial prejudice.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Harrowby Hall on April 08, 2018, 07:27:37 PM
Well apart from ignoring the second sentence of my pist,

Been taking lessons in French from Officer Crabtree?

Back to the post.

To an extent I share Floo's Littlerose's concerns. I don't like seeing tattoos and I feel them to be disfiguring ... but then, that's just me. But I know that I am not alone. However, I would not interfere with anyone's right to be employed in any position if he or she were qualified for that job.

What generally concerns me is that - to a great extent - they are statements of fashion and fashions change. The significant problems with tattoos are, firstly, pretty well permanent. A tattoo is for life. (Yes, I know that there are strategies for dealing with them but tattoo removal is uncertain and the result may as "bad" as the tattoo.) What may not be considered, when a tattoo is applied, is that over time the inks may fade and change colour and end up looking rather different from the original.

And what do you do if the circumstances existing at the time of the tattoo change. Will Vera be troubled by seeing a heart encircled by "Mabel" every time she looks at her husband's chest ... ?
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 07:32:07 PM
HH, people do know that tatts are permanent. They tend not to age well as skin sags and ink fades - in fact I know people who have had their tatts remodelled or refreshed later, which is also a way of dealing with unfortunate names etc.

People have the right to make mistakes. It’s a part of life. Same goes for cosmetic surgery, which is something I largely find baffling.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Steve H on April 08, 2018, 07:36:13 PM
Re. the thread title:
"If someone makes themselves unemployable..." what? The sentence is incomplete.
"Themselves" should be "themself".
One question-mark is emough.
In fact there should not be any question-mark, because the partial sentence is not a question.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Harrowby Hall on April 08, 2018, 07:41:22 PM
HH, people do know that tatts are permanent. They tend not to age well as skin sags and ink fades - in fact I know people who have had their tatts remodelled or refreshed later, which is also a way of dealing with unfortunate names etc.

People have the right to make mistakes. It’s a part of life. Same goes for cosmetic surgery, which is something I largely find baffling.

I don't disagree with a word of that, Rhiannon. I was just stating my own opinion. By the way, a tattoo is a form of cosmetic surgery ...
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 07:45:30 PM
I don't disagree with a word of that, Rhiannon. I was just stating my own opinion. By the way, a tattoo is a form of cosmetic surgery ...

Hmm, maybe. I guess you could throw piercings in there too. But the term used for both is ‘body modifications’. The cosmetic surgery stuff belongs in clinics and hospitals, or it should do. There’s a shocking lack of responsibility and stuff like Botox is administered by the unqualified. It’s not good.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Robbie on April 08, 2018, 08:24:03 PM
Laser removal of tattoos and various types of scars can be undertaken by someone who has only done a two day course with very little understanding of anatomy and physiology.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Robbie on April 08, 2018, 08:24:55 PM
Re. the thread title:
"If someone makes themselves unemployable..." what? The sentence is incomplete.
"Themselves" should be "themself".
One question-mark is emough.
In fact there should not be any question-mark, because the partial sentence is not a question.

Yep.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: Rhiannon on April 08, 2018, 10:06:25 PM
Laser removal of tattoos and various types of scars can be undertaken by someone who has only done a two day course with very little understanding of anatomy and physiology.

Using lasers falls into the ‘surgery’ category, not least because of the resulting wounds. There isn’t anything like enough regulation.
Title: Re: if someone makes themselves unemployable??
Post by: jeremyp on April 09, 2018, 01:29:36 AM
Would you buy a used car from this man? (http://badtattooidea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/top_10_most_tattooed_people_in_the_world_Rick_Genest_The_Zombie_Boy.jpg)

Would you buy a used car from this man (https://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/TimelineGenerator/bin/img/1438863824635/ArthurDaley1_3274975b.jpg).

He's got no tats or piercings and he is wearing a nice suit.