Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on May 01, 2018, 08:18:19 AM
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With the appointment by the NHS of a Humanist chaplain as team leader of a hospital chaplaincy. Do people think Humanist chaplains should be funded on the NHS?
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I imagine it would be a spare-time, voluntary job, so it wouldn't need funding.
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I imagine it would be a spare-time, voluntary job, so it wouldn't need funding.
It isn't, the job is so sophisticated, The NHS thinks it needs a tier of practitioner management hence the appointment of the first Humanist
chaplaincy team leader.
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If a chaplain of any religion or life-philosophy can aid the healing process and increase survival rates, and I think it's been demonstrated that they can, then fund them.
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Not sure what you are on about here. There have been paid religious chaplains in the NHS as we have discussed before. At that time I posted that I thought the service was worth having as it brings comfort to the sick and dying.
Why would it be any different just because it is a humanist chaplain?
Or is it just your knee jerk response taking over because something vaguely relating to your shifting definition of antitheism has turned up in the news and you feel like having yet another tilt at your windmill of choice?
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Not sure what you are on about here. There have been paid religious chaplains in the NHS as we have discussed before. At that time I posted that I thought the service was worth having as it brings comfort to the sick and dying.
Why would it be any different just because it is a humanist chaplain?
Or is it just your knee jerk response taking over because something vaguely relating to your shifting definition of antitheism has turned up in the news and you feel like having yet another tilt at your windmill of choice?
I voted that a humanist chaplain should be paid by the NHS and if they are good at it coordinate multifaith chaplaincies.
According to Ippy the National Secular Society don't want chaplaincy paid for..... period.
And you will notice someone has voted for No Chaplains
This therefore isn't the theist on antitheist thing you seem to be portraying.
This looks like a National Secular Society on Humanist UK thing.
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I voted that a humanist chaplain should be paid by the NHS and if they are good at it coordinate multifaith chaplaincies.
According to Ippy the National Secular Society don't want chaplaincy paid for..... period.
And you will notice someone has voted for No Chaplains
This therefore isn't the theist on antitheist thing you seem to be portraying.
This looks like a National Secular Society on Humanist UK thing.
I apologise if I have misunderstood you but this sounded rather sarcastic in tone:
The NHS thinks it needs a tier of practitioner management hence the appointment of the first Humanist
chaplaincy team leader.
That's the problem with MB's :)
And as you posted this in isolation to the thread also dealing with this, which I hadn't seen, you can perhaps forgive me for my faux pas.
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I apologise if I have misunderstood you but this sounded rather sarcastic in tone:
That's the problem with MB's :)
It isn't at all.
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It isn't at all.
Whatever, it appears we agree on the main point that chaplains of whatever stripe should be funded. So all good.
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Whatever, it appears we agree on the main point that chaplains of whatever stripe should be funded. So all good.
But don't you think the NSS are the spectre at the feast or will humanist UK win the argument among the non religious?
I wonder if there are those who think there should only be humanist chaplains.
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But don't you think the NSS are the spectre at the feast or will humanist UK win the argument among the non religious?
I wonder if there are those who think there should only be humanist chaplains.
As I said you are discussing this on another thread, it would have helped if the context had been given on this thread.
As to what either of the 2 organisations advise I am supremely indifferent.
My thoughts on the subject are governed by what I think is in the best interest of patients. I think Religious & Pastoral Care is an important element of a hospital's strategy for helping patients deal with some of the most difficult issues they are likely to face in their lives. I do not need either the NSS or Humanist UK to inform me on this issue.
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During a long NHS career I had frequent contact with the Chaplaincy service and I fully support their role: they were part of the team, very discreet and sensitive and their involvement did make a difference to some people: and not just to the religious either.
One of them, now in his mid-80's and a retired CofS minister, has been a personal friend for around 40 years now.
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As to what either of the 2 organisations advise I am supremely indifferent.
say no more.
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During a long NHS career I had frequent contact with the Chaplaincy service and I fully support their role: they were part of the team, very discreet and sensitive and their involvement did make a difference to some people: and not just to the religious either.
One of them, now in his mid-80's and a retired CofS minister, has been a personal friend for around 40 years now.
I take my hat of to you and your former colleagues.
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During a long NHS career I had frequent contact with the Chaplaincy service and I fully support their role: they were part of the team, very discreet and sensitive and their involvement did make a difference to some people: and not just to the religious either.
One of them, now in his mid-80's and a retired CofS minister, has been a personal friend for around 40 years now.
Parallel lives.
I also worked with the Chaplaincy service for many years and have a close friend who is a retired chaplain. Spooky or what? (Probably not spooky at all, but a coincidence of the kind that I quite like!)
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As a humanist,I see nothing wrong with having chaplains, including humanist chaplains, per se. If the Christian chaplains are paid by the NHS, I see no reason why humanist chaplains should not also be paid. This should extend in theory to all religions(e.g. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc.) and I believe that there are a small number of such chaplains working in the NHS. However this could not possibly cover all hospitals, so the answer would be to have chaplains(or a member of a minority faith) on call if needed at any particular hospital.
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Currently most minority faiths have voluntary chaplains. I think that having a humanist chaplain is an excellent move; as a pagan I’d get more from talking to a humanist than someone with a faith position. And yet many atheists don’t identify as humanist; it’d be interesting to know what non-humanist atheists feel about this move.
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Currently most minority faiths have voluntary chaplains. I think that having a humanist chaplain is an excellent move; as a pagan I’d get more from talking to a humanist than someone with a faith position. And yet many atheists don’t identify as humanist; it’d be interesting to know what non-humanist atheists feel about this move.
I'd like to hear from whoever wanted to do away with any chaplain of any stripe from the NHS.
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No chaplain should be funded by the NHS.
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No chaplain should be funded by the NHS.
and what are your reasons for this?
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and what are your reasons for this?
Because the NHS is about curing people's ailments, which should have priority, especially as it is not doing well financially.
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Currently most minority faiths have voluntary chaplains. I think that having a humanist chaplain is an excellent move; as a pagan I’d get more from talking to a humanist than someone with a faith position. And yet many atheists don’t identify as humanist; it’d be interesting to know what non-humanist atheists feel about this move.
I'm not a humanist and I'm fine with it
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Because the NHS is about curing people's ailments, which should have priority, especially as it is not doing well financially.
You talk as though it is a normal business that is dreadful and more in line with running for profit than curing ailments.
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You talk as though it is a normal business that is dreadful and more in line with running for profit than curing ailments.
What are you talking about?
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Because the NHS is about curing people's ailments, which should have priority, especially as it is not doing well financially.
Presumably you are ok with the education system just educating your child with Asbergers rather than helping him manage his condition.
Sarcasm alert: I'd hate to think money in education was wasted on conditions just because they are outside the normal range of human experiences.
I'm guessing 'one size fits all' is your life philosophy.
As to not doing well financially, in what sense?
Because they are not managing finances or because they are being squeezed by a government intent on making Richard Branson an even richer person.
I'm going have to go before I say something I regret.
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No chaplain should be funded by the NHS.
Why? You regularly jump on others who make statements of opinion without reasoning or evidenceto support them, but you are yourself the worst offender!
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Have a read of this link, it's the N S S view: https://www.secularism.org.uk/chaplaincy/
Regards ippy
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Because the NHS is about curing people's ailments, which should have priority, especially as it is not doing well financially.
Well-being during illness is about more than pills, scans, therapies and scalpels though: there may also be isolation, fear and uncertainty regarding the future (and in some cases there may not be much future left): in my experience the Chaplaincy service provides an empathetic input to well-being for all who find it helpful irrespective of any religious element, and for those that are religious but are hospital bound I'd say any arrangements to allow them to maintain their religious involvement if that is their wish is in their best interests.
It is primarily about caring for people, and not theology or proselytising (in my experience anyway).
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Have a read of this link, it's the N S S view: https://www.secularism.org.uk/chaplaincy/
Regards ippy
For starters I take issue with this part
''While seen as an interim measure by some, the creation of one or two humanist or non-religious chaplains is not a solution. It would legitimise the current system of religious discrimination and privilege.''
This suffers from NSS old overstatement/understatement problem here because surely the NHS scheme of non religious chaplain is an area of expansion.
Saying that having non religious chaplains legitimises the current system of religious discrimination and privilege is just nonsense on high heels.
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Why? You regularly jump on others who make statements of opinion without reasoning or evidenceto support them, but you are yourself the worst offender!
If you say so. ::)
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Well-being during illness is about more than pills, scans, therapies and scalpels though: there may also be isolation, fear and uncertainty regarding the future (and in some cases there may not be much future left): in my experience the Chaplaincy service provides an empathetic input to well-being for all who find it helpful irrespective of any religious element, and for those that are religious but are hospital bound I'd say any arrangements to allow them to maintain their religious involvement if that is their wish is in their best interests.
It is primarily about caring for people, and not theology or proselytising (in my experience anyway).
I take your point.
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No chaplain should be funded by the NHS.
Healing just physical - the whole person needs supporting. Chaplains provide a listening ear which hard-pressed medical staff can’t always, even though they very often want to.
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I'm not a humanist and I'm fine with it
I didn’t think atheists would object, I was just wondering if it was something that non-humanist atheists would see as useful.
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I didn’t think atheists would object, I was just wondering if it was something that non-humanist atheists would see as useful.
I do - I can't speak for any other non humanist atheists
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Healing just physical - the whole person needs supporting. Chaplains provide a listening ear which hard-pressed medical staff can’t always, even though they very often want to.
Can I separate myself from the, 'questioning the work chaplains do or don't do', side of this thread, my only objection is about where the funding of the chaplain service comes from?
Regards ippy
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Can I separate myself from the, 'questioning the work chaplains do or don't do', side of this thread, my only objection is about where the funding of the chaplain service comes from?
Regards ippy
If it's useful and helps people why wouldn't it be funded by the NHS?
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I'm abstaining. Whatever the decision is, the rules should be the same for all chaplains. However, what are they for? If they are to provide solace of a religious nature, then a humanist chaplain seems like a bit of a chocolate fireguard and religious chaplains would also be of limited use.
However, if they are to provide general support and counselling, why not call them something other than "chaplain"?
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I'm abstaining. Whatever the decision is, the rules should be the same for all chaplains. However, what are they for? If they are to provide solace of a religious nature, then a humanist chaplain seems like a bit of a chocolate fireguard and religious chaplains would also be of limited use.
However, if they are to provide general support and counselling, why not call them something other than "chaplain"?
Who cares if it does good?
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why not call them something other than "chaplain"?
What a strange prejudice to hold.
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What a strange prejudice to hold.
Why is asking a question 'prejudice '?
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Why is asking a question 'prejudice '?
He obviously finds the word unsatisfactory and is questioning it's use.
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He obviously finds the word unsatisfactory and is questioning it's use.
So why is that 'prejudice'?
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So why is that 'prejudice'?
It's a tad unreasonable imho.
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It's a tad unreasonable imho.
so anything you think is unreasonable is 'prejudice'?
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If you say so. ::)
Typical evasive reply.
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Can I separate myself from the, 'questioning the work chaplains do or don't do', side of this thread, my only objection is about where the funding of the chaplain service comes from?
Regards ippy
The NHS’s job is to make people better. If chaplains help in this why shouldn’t there be funding?
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The NHS’s job is to make people better. If chaplains help in this why shouldn’t there be funding?
Well it's the old principle of little and often, when these instances are pointed out, in comes the oh they do a good job, etc etc all mostly correct when referring to, in this case, chaplains, which with most cases mentioned yes I agree with these arguments and yes they do mostly good, but this isn't the point.
The religious organisations are very canny, the state is paying for chaplains to do part of the various religious organisations P R work for them; the state is paying the schools to do to do P R work for them, through tax exemptions, another state hand out to them; chancellery laws introduced by past government assist their finances another hand out; oh yes don't forget the chaplains of the army and prison service also, another two hand outs.
It's all little and often some of the hand outs are not that small either but even then having said that what sort of sum do you think of just the ones I've pointed our above add up to in the over all picture of funds they get gratis from the state to enable them to push their agenda.
The benefits religious orders get that I've pointed out above are just the ones that came to mind as I sit here doing my one fingered typing, I can assure you there are plenty more places that these religious organisations have their their fingers firmly in the till, where I would like to remove their fingers from our state money for good and ever, no other organisation, mostly the C of E, I know of is much better at getting the state to fund their P R work in so many, in purposely hardly noticeable ways, as these religious groups.
Like I said I'm not against the principle of chaplains, more a job for someone that people feel able to talk to, one of those lovely genuine warm people you get from time to time, that really care about fellow human beings.
Regards ippy
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Well it's the old principle of little and often, when these instances are pointed out, in comes the oh they do a good job, etc etc all mostly correct when referring to, in this case, chaplains, which with most cases mentioned yes I agree with these arguments and yes they do mostly good, but this isn't the point.
The religious organisations are very canny, the state is paying for chaplains to do part of the various religious organisations
So would you consider the Humanists a religion since there are NHS paid humanist chaplains?
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Well it's the old principle of little and often, when these instances are pointed out, in comes the oh they do a good job, etc etc all mostly correct when referring to, in this case, chaplains, which with most cases mentioned yes I agree with these arguments and yes they do mostly good, but this isn't the point.
The religious organisations are very canny, the state is paying for chaplains to do part of the various religious organisations P R work for them; the state is paying the schools to do to do P R work for them, through tax exemptions, another state hand out to them; chancellery laws introduced by past government assist their finances another hand out; oh yes don't forget the chaplains of the army and prison service also, another two hand outs.
It's all little and often some of the hand outs are not that small either but even then having said that what sort of sum do you think of just the ones I've pointed our above add up to in the over all picture of funds they get gratis from the state to enable them to push their agenda.
The benefits religious orders get that I've pointed out above are just the ones that came to mind as I sit here doing my one fingered typing, I can assure you there are plenty more places that these religious organisations have their their fingers firmly in the till, where I would like to remove their fingers from our state money for good and ever, no other organisation, mostly the C of E, I know of is much better at getting the state to fund their P R work in so many, in purposely hardly noticeable ways, as these religious groups.
Like I said I'm not against the principle of chaplains, more a job for someone that people feel able to talk to, one of those lovely genuine warm people you get from time to time, that really care about fellow human beings.
Regards ippy
Arse-gravy
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Arse-gravy
..says the man who created and patented the recipe. ::)
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..says the man who created and patented the recipe. ::)
Meeowwwwwww.
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So would you consider the Humanists a religion since there are NHS paid humanist chaplains?
This post of yours is irrelevant and misleadingly incomplete Vlad?
Regards ippy
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Arse-gravy
I'll bet you were one of those not so little naughty children that ran away from where you thought you had been an original thinker when writing your first rude word on a wall somewhere.
Regards ippy
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Who cares if it does good?
Lots of people apparently. The word "chaplain" seems to be quite emotive.
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It's a tad unreasonable imho.
I merely observe that the word "chaplain" has some fairly emotive connotations for some people. If these "chaplains" are not doing religious work in the hospitals, why not call them something different?
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I merely observe that the word "chaplain" has some fairly emotive connotations for some people. If these "chaplains" are not doing religious work in the hospitals, why not call them something different?
What, like psycho-electricians?
That would certainly allow non religious groups scope to whine about chaplains again......and, as they say on dragons den..........that is why I'm out.
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Lots of people apparently. The word "chaplain" seems to be quite emotive.
The word Chaplain's not emotive to me, you can leave the word chaplain in place or almost any other suitable name you like, most people know what a chaplain is and does; the humanist will be doing similar work only without the supernatural stuff.
Thinking about it, the job description 'Chaplain' has been there for such a long time, why not stick with it?
Regards ippy
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With the appointment by the NHS of a Humanist chaplain as team leader of a hospital chaplaincy. Do people think Humanist chaplains should be funded on the NHS?
No! Most hospital chaplains are from local churches and it is part of their duty.
Why not humanist too?
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No! Most hospital chaplains are from local churches and it is part of their duty.
Why not humanist too?
All chaplains should be funded by the organisations that supply them not the NHS, the forces or the prison service chaplains either, we need to remove the religion based fingers from all of the pies they manage to get their grubby little fingers into and anyone else too including Humanists.
Regards ippy.
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I thought the CofE hospital chaplains did receive a salary from the NHS but I could be wrong.
Ippy not all chaplains have 'grubby little hands', that's unkind. Prison chaplains do a great deal of good, they help make the prison an easier place for the staff for a start! The prisoners have somewhere to go for discussions and sometimes singing, of an evening, & enjoy it. It's not about making converts but getting alongside some very disadvantaged people, giving them encouragement & a helping hand in all sorts of ways. Letting them talk too. The staff appreciate anything that contributes to a calmer atmosphere & the prisoners know they can talk to people who don't talk down to them and push them around.
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I thought the CofE hospital chaplains did receive a salary from the NHS but I could be wrong.
Ippy not all chaplains have 'grubby little hands', that's unkind. Prison chaplains do a great deal of good, they help make the prison an easier place for the staff for a start! The prisoners have somewhere to go for discussions and sometimes singing, of an evening, & enjoy it. It's not about making converts but getting alongside some very disadvantaged people, giving them encouragement & a helping hand in all sorts of ways. Letting them talk too. The staff appreciate anything that contributes to a calmer atmosphere & the prisoners know they can talk to people who don't talk down to them and push them around.
I keep on underlining that I have no quarrel with the chaplaincy my quarrel is with where the funding comes from and as such you should have seen that my reference about grubby little hands was directed mainly to the C of E and to any other supplier of chaplains religious humanist or from where ever.
Regards ippy
P S, nothing wrong with having chaplains, I object to the state funding almost anything of a religious nature, I'm a secularist.
Regards ippy
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They are on the NHS payroll, average salary £29,256 pa. Nothing spectacular.
You may object to them because they are religious but it's a very demanding job, they have to be around at all times. They also have to eat! They're not running a parish at the same time as being a hospital chaplain, it's a full time job & would be chaplains apply for it as they would for any other job.
If chaplains were purely voluntary they wouldn't be available all the time & probably just pop in once a week.
(Prison chaplains fare worse:- average £27,776 pa.)
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They are on the NHS payroll, average salary £29,256 pa. Nothing spectacular.
You may object to them because they are religious but it's a very demanding job, they have to be around at all times. They also have to eat! They're not running a parish at the same time as being a hospital chaplain, it's a full time job & would be chaplains apply for it as they would for any other job.
If chaplains were purely voluntary they wouldn't be available all the time & probably just pop in once a week.
(Prison chaplains fare worse:- average £27,776 pa.)
Not my point Rob, the humanist chaplains should be funded by their organisation and as I keep on saying I'm not planting any nasturtiums on the job chaplains do in their various positions, we could be paying for more doctors, nurses, prison warders etc or any of the other enormous amount of expenses these three services need with the app £26 million we pay for these people in the NHS alone, without the rest for prisons and the armed services.
I'M NOT MAKING ANY COMMENT ABOUT THE WORK DONE BY CHAPLAINS, FOR OR AGAINST!
Regards ippy
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All chaplains should be funded by the organisations that supply them not the NHS, the forces or the prison service chaplains either, we need to remove the religion based fingers from all of the pies they manage to get their grubby little fingers into and anyone else too including Humanists.
Regards ippy.
God help you if they ever do because being an atheist won't stop them from killing you off.
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I thought the CofE hospital chaplains did receive a salary from the NHS but I could be wrong.
Ippy not all chaplains have 'grubby little hands', that's unkind. Prison chaplains do a great deal of good, they help make the prison an easier place for the staff for a start! The prisoners have somewhere to go for discussions and sometimes singing, of an evening, & enjoy it. It's not about making converts but getting alongside some very disadvantaged people, giving them encouragement & a helping hand in all sorts of ways. Letting them talk too. The staff appreciate anything that contributes to a calmer atmosphere & the prisoners know they can talk to people who don't talk down to them and push them around.
As far as I am aware, ROBBIE,
Hospital visiting is part of their ministry. xx
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Ministers certainly visit parishioners in hospital, Sassy, but they're not hospital chaplains. Being a chaplain is so much more than visiting the sick.
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Interesting - a humanist lead chaplain in an NHS Trust.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-45221945/the-first-humanist-lead-chaplain-in-the-nhs
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While reading this article on the same person:
https://tinyurl.com/ybfvhzpe
I found this slightly amusing:
Humanism is increasingly the default position in England when people don’t want to think about theology or religious questions. It has replaced “C of E” as the translation of a muffled “don’t know” in questions about religious identity. It’s not the same as atheism, which implies a much sharper-edged conception of identity. Humanists, you might say, don’t believe in God but think it’s rude to say so."
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What's the difference between having a humanist chaplain and having a non-religious counselling, visiting or befriending service available 24/7? I'm not knocking it, just wondering.
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What's the difference between having a humanist chaplain and having a non-religious counselling, visiting or befriending service available 24/7? I'm not knocking it, just wondering.
I suspect that the Chaplaincy service is seen as being part of the formal NHS organisation and is managed as such, and the Christian chaplain in the clip did mention the management aspect.
It may be that the personal encounters are of a similar kind to what religious chaplains deliver but without any religious overtones. That said, the hospital chaplains I encountered never evangelised and were always happy to help support non-religious people - they were invariably an asset and one of them, a retired Church of Scotland minister, has remained a personal friend over the last 30 odd years.
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God help you if they ever do because being an atheist won't stop them from killing you off.
Won't stop who from killing who off?
I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Do you think the NHS is killing people off and chaplains are stopping them?
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I suspect that the Chaplaincy service is seen as being part of the formal NHS organisation and is managed as such, and the Christian chaplain in the clip did mention the management aspect.
It may be that the personal encounters are of a similar kind to what religious chaplains deliver but without any religious overtones. That said, the hospital chaplains I encountered never evangelised and were always happy to help support non-religious people - they were invariably an asset and one of them, a retired Church of Scotland minister, has remained a personal friend over the last 30 odd years.
Yes, I got that the kind of support is the same but again I’m wondering why it has to be under the title of ‘chaplain’, and again, I’ve no problem with the NHS funding or management of it.
Maybe it’s time to do away with the concept of ‘chaplaincy’ altogether and have the NHS offer this service with or without the religious aspect. That might also bypass the terrible practice of the CofE having thebpower to veto NHS employees on grounds of their private lives.