Religion and Ethics Forum

Religion and Ethics Discussion => Philosophy, in all its guises. => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on June 20, 2018, 06:52:02 PM

Title: 'To Be, Or Not to Be: On Whether Animals Can Commit Suicide'
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 20, 2018, 06:52:02 PM

Obviously this refers to non human animals, since we do in our view commit suicide and we are animals.



https://iainews.iai.tv/articles/to-be-or-not-to-be-on-whether-animals-can-commit-suicide-auid-1087

Title: Re: 'To Be, Or Not to Be: On Whether Animals Can Commit Suicide'
Post by: jeremyp on June 20, 2018, 07:19:04 PM

First of all, what do we mean when we say "Joe Bloggs committed suicide"? Does it imply a conscious wish to cease to exist? I'd say yes. The examples given by the author of suicide without a conscious wish to die are unconvincing in my opinion.

Title: Re: 'To Be, Or Not to Be: On Whether Animals Can Commit Suicide'
Post by: Nearly Sane on June 20, 2018, 07:26:20 PM

Quote from: jeremyp on June 20, 2018, 07:19:04 PM

First of all, what do we mean when we say "Joe Bloggs committed suicide"? Does it imply a conscious wish to cease to exist? I'd say yes. The examples given by the author of suicide without a conscious wish to die are unconvincing in my opinion.

surely that's just begging the question in that you are assuming no conscious wish?

Title: Re: 'To Be, Or Not to Be: On Whether Animals Can Commit Suicide'
Post by: jeremyp on June 20, 2018, 07:34:53 PM

Quote from: Nearly Sane on June 20, 2018, 07:26:20 PM

surely that's just begging the question in that you are assuming no conscious wish?

I don't know is it? How do you define suicide? Other animals frequently engage in behaviour that leads to certain death, but is that suicide?

Is it suicide when a soldier storms a machine gun post to save his regiment and is inevitably killed in the process?  The language we use to describe such acts would suggest not, but that might be just the fact that suicide still has a slightly pejorative nuance.

Is it suicide if you are not aware that your actions will inevitably kill you? If not, most animals probably can't commit suicide.

Title: Re: 'To Be, Or Not to Be: On Whether Animals Can Commit Suicide'
Post by: ekim on June 21, 2018, 09:29:39 AM

Lemmings ..... suicide or attempted murder by Disney? ....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUNJ0xg6_Mw

Title: Re: 'To Be, Or Not to Be: On Whether Animals Can Commit Suicide'
Post by: Harrowby Hall on June 21, 2018, 10:00:04 AM

The first question to ask, surely, is whether non-human animals have any concept of death? Predators may kill, but their behaviour is innate -they kill because they are programmed to kill. Do they understand the nature of what they are doing to their prey ... or is it just what they do?

Do animals know that they are mortal? If they do not then they cannot "commit suicide". 

Title: Re: 'To Be, Or Not to Be: On Whether Animals Can Commit Suicide'
Post by: Rhiannon on June 21, 2018, 11:04:53 AM

It’s interesting, I don’t associate self-sacrificing deaths with suicide.

Anyway, animals... there are plenty of anecdotes about animals who go into mourning and who refuse to eat or take care of themselves following the death of a companion or owner. They often die within a short time of the other death. Is this a kind of suicide? Or is it what we would recognise as a mental illness?