Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Philosophy, in all its guises. => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on July 11, 2018, 12:15:43 PM
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Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water
Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self
Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?
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I think we need a little bit more to go on than the random effusion of someone who is to philosophical thought as Churchill was to Woodbines.
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I think we need a little bit more to go on than the random effusion of someone who is to philosophical thought as Churchill was to Woodbines.
So you think Both are OK then, or what?
Consciousness is the illusion of consciousness? Dennetts circular argument?
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Well, what are the short-comings of the idea of the illusion of self?
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Well, what are the short-comings of the idea of the illusion of self?
It seems that the self is an illusion of it's, er, self. That is IMHO a bit suspect.
It's a bit circular don't you think?
A mirage being an illusion of something else seems on safer logical grounds.
try this one then
A mirage is an illusion of a mirage. Is that a sensible thing to say? I'm not sure it is.
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It seems that the self is an illusion of it's, er, self. That is IMHO a bit suspect.
It's a bit circular don't you think?
No. By my own frank admission I am to philosophy as Stephen Hawking was to contemporary interpretative jazz dance, yet even I can see what's up with this one. Carry on: tell me all about what you think is/perceive to be what you think is the circularity.
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If self is the illusion of self then is illusion the illusion of illusion?
The self is the illusion of what it is, the self.
The self is not what it is.......which is the self.
Mirage is an illusion of water but is A mirage an illusion of a mirage?
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Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water
Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self
Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?
Who has said Example 2?
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Who has said Example 2?
I did in, er, example 2.
If the self is an illusion
And a mirage is an illusion of water...what is the self an illusion of?
And what is being illuded?
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I did in, er, example 2.
If the self is an illusion
And a mirage is an illusion of water...what is the self an illusion of?
And what is being illuded?
Exactly. You've phrased something in such a way as to then attack that way of phrasing something.
A mirage is an illusion, the existence of self may be an illusion, both valid statements. Look up the definition of the word illusion. It doesn't require an of.
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Exactly. You've phrased something in such a way as to then attack that way of phrasing something.
A mirage is an illusion, the existence of self may be an illusion, both valid statements. Look up the definition of the word illusion. It doesn't require an of.
I like this post. Just saying.
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I like this post. Just saying.
Thanks :)
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Exactly. You've phrased something in such a way as to then attack that way of phrasing something.
A mirage is an illusion, the existence of self may be an illusion, both valid statements. Look up the definition of the word illusion. It doesn't require an of.
OK
Lets try it
The self is an illusion.
Oh dear.......an unjustified assertion.
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OK
Lets try it
The self is an illusion.
Oh dear.......an unjustified assertion.
Except Maeght wrote 'may be an illusion'. So your post is lying about what he said. Why? Why did you choose to lie here?
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OK
Lets try it
The self is an illusion.
Oh dear.......an unjustified assertion.
If I had said that you would be right. Since I didn't you are ..... (you can fill in the blanks if you like).
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If I had said that you would be right. Since I didn't you are ..... (you can fill in the blanks if you like).
Where did I say you said it.
You said that an illusion didn't have to have an ''of''.
So I tried it and it comes out as an assertion.
In what way then is the self maybe an illusion? What properties or abilities does it lack that render it completely unreal.
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Where did I say you said it.
You said that an illusion didn't have to have an ''of''.
So I tried it and it comes out as an assertion.
In what way then is the self maybe an illusion? What properties or abilities does it lack that render it completely unreal.
The implication was that I had made that assertion. NS felt the same. Perhaps you need to be careful how you word your posts.
The answer to your question is, as far as I'm concerned, who knows?
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Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water
Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self
Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?
It's a circular definition.
Who is it that has tried to use it?
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It's a circular definition.
Correct.
Unfortunately I have no way of sending you the first prize of an antique genuine Armitage Shanks Hunting Elephant Bidet.
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I have just wasted 1 minute of my life reading this post. When I say wasted, I probably would have done that anyway, watching baby cats on Facebook but hey.
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Consciousness is the illusion of consciousness? Dennetts circular argument?
Reference?
I suspect you either haven't read Dennett or, if you have, you didn't understand it.
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One of the problems in discussing the illusory self is that as a concept, it's found in different fields. Eastern religions have been discussing it for centuries, for example, although quite often, it's the separate self that's cited as not existing. This is different from the arguments in philosophy, psychology, neuroscience, and so on. Anyway, I expect that Google will supply information.
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Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water
Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self
Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?
I think you make a valid point. Torridon (and others) often make the point about the sense of self being an illusion, but they never say to whom it is an illusion.
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I think you make a valid point. Torridon (and others) often make the point about the sense of self being an illusion, but they never say to whom it is an illusion.
Agreed.
They are suggesting that an illusion can experience an illusion IMV.
The self then returns to being the thing Searle says Dennett has failed to explain.
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This sounds like the theatre idea - that experience is going on, watched by a spectator. One problem with this is regress, i.e. is the spectator being watched? Anyway, it is dualistic, so there is experiencer and experience. Some Buddhists argue for a non-dualistic 'block', or whatever you call it, with no centre.
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Reference?
Obviously not.
Try this: The Self as a Center of Narrative Gravity (http://cogprints.org/266/1/selfctr.htm).
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Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water
Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self
Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?
Use 1: Although a mirage can well be described as an illusion(eg. of water), it is in fact an effect which is well known and can be easily explained scientifically.
Use 2: I think that the idea of self being merely an illusion of self is both confusing and simplistic. I would put it another way entirely. We have a feeling of 'self'. This is not so easily explained but seems to comprise an amalgam or coming together of sometimes disparate and competing parts of the brain to create some sort of unity and this would surely entail complex communication and organization. How this is achieved is open to question but I submit that this leads to the feeling that we call 'self'. As an example of what I mean, I think it is interesting to look at cases where, for instance, the communication between the two hemispheres of the brain has been broken. I am thinking of cases, for instance, where the corpus callosum(where the two hemispheres communicate)) has been severed or badly damaged. It seems that in such cases there is the potential for two selves to show themselves, and they may be somewhat contradictory. This suggests that our idea of one 'self' per person may be far too simple an idea compared with the reality. For instance if one side is atheistically minded and the other side is theistically minded, this raises all sorts of difficult theological questions. Here is a short video by a neurologist illustrating just this point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFJPtVRlI64
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Self awareness is different from the Self. As I have explained before, when each of us was an infant, we did not have any self awareness, but the Self existed nevertheless.
Self awareness is a mental construction that gets created as we grow up. It is the software that we down load to make the hardware work. This software can sometimes create problems by creating multiple personalities as in DID. Even in normal people different mental conditions can behave almost like different personalities.
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Self awareness is different from the Self. As I have explained before, when each of us was an infant, we did not have any self awareness, but the Self existed nevertheless.
Self awareness is a mental construction that gets created as we grow up. It is the software that we down load to make the hardware work. This software can sometimes create problems by creating multiple personalities as in DID. Even in normal people different mental conditions can behave almost like different personalities.
I'm happy to take the view that self is different to awareness of self, if that is what you wish. However, in that case, I would suggest that there is no evidence than that the self simply means all the physical things that make up each unique human being, and that this 'self' changes as we progress throughout our life. No problem.
However, when the OP refers to the self as merely an illusion of self, I assumed that this was associated with our own feelings of 'self' which would entail an awareness of what we mean by the word, 'self' as it appertains to each of us. Only in that way can I even begin to understand what the'illusion of self' means.