Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on July 20, 2018, 01:01:33 PM
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Oh joy!
https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/07/21/ukip-is-bouncing-back-in-an-altogether-nastier-form
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What lovely people! >:( That excuse for a political party should be banned.
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What lovely people! >:( That excuse for a political party should be banned.
On the grounds of?
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On the grounds of?
Oh I don't know, I quite like the idea, but can I choose the Tory party instead. As for grounds....there is not the space here nor the time left in my life to list them.
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On the grounds of?
They are racist scum!
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As for grounds....there is not the space here nor the time left in my life to list them.
Just list a couple.
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They are racist scum!
Is that how you would frame the legislation?
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Oh I don't know, I quite like the idea, but can I choose the Tory party instead. As for grounds....there is not the space here nor the time left in my life to list them.
And there are those that might say the same for each of the existing parties.
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They are racist scum!
So are Labour, according to some. Shall we ban them too?
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Racism seems to be rearing its very ugly head again and must be cracked down on very severely.
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Racism seems to be rearing its very ugly head again and must be cracked down on very severely.
By destroying democracy and any vestige of political freedom. Given your position and given the actions of Theresa May as Home Secretary, to be consistent you would want to ban the Tory Party.
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So are Labour, according to some. Shall we ban them too?
Seen the charge made against Tories, SNP, Lib Dems and Greens as well.
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Seen the charge made against Tories, SNP, Lib Dems and Greens as well.
Of course. Just using them as an example because they are not of the right, yet open to the same charge.
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Of course. Just using them as an example because they are not of the right, yet open to the same charge.
I think the idea of right wing equals racist is part of the problem. The BNP were in many ways approaching racism from the left.
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I think the idea of right wing equals racist is part of the problem. The BNP were in many ways approaching racism from the left.
Yes, agree very much with this. It's an issue for Labour.
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By destroying democracy and any vestige of political freedom. Given your position and given the actions of Theresa May as Home Secretary, to be consistent you would want to ban the Tory Party.
I don't think the Tory party is based on racism like UKIP. Any member of any party who expresses racist views should be kicked out and prosecuted, in my opinion. Racism is a blot on society and must not be tolerated. >:(
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I don't think the Tory party is based on racism like UKIP. Any member of any party who expresses racist views should be kicked out and prosecuted, in my opinion. Racism is a blot on society and must not be tolerated. >:(
How do you tell if a party is 'based on racism'?
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Obviously some of you have lost the ability to spot tongue in cheekery.
I'm back out into the garden whilst the weather remains cloudy and relatively cool. Back later to see if some of you have regained good humour.
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Obviously some of you have lost the ability to spot tongue in cheekery.
I'm back out into the garden whilst the weather remains cloudy and relatively cool. Back later to see if some of you have regained good humour.
I spotted it but on a thread where we have someone arguing for the banning of a party in this way, I didn't find it humourous.
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What lovely people! >:( That excuse for a political party should be banned.
On the grounds of?
On the grounds that LR doesn't like it. Her understanding of free speech and democracy is a little - shall we say - limited.
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Obviously some of you have lost the ability to spot tongue in cheekery.
I'm back out into the garden whilst the weather remains cloudy and relatively cool. Back later to see if some of you have regained good humour.
To be honest, I thought I was responding to a post by Little Roses.
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To be honest, I thought I was responding to a post by Little Roses.
You probably were. I was just taking her idea of banning parties to an absurd example. Some didn't see that. No big deal.
But if you did want me to list 2 reasons:
Brexit
NHS
;)
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On the grounds of?
On the grounds that LR doesn't like it. Her understanding of free speech and democracy is a little - shall we say - limited.
So it is ok to make disgusting racist statements is it?
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I think banning UKIP could be catastrophic, as they would become martyrs, and on the way to fascism. Remind anyone of Weimar?
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So it is ok to make disgusting racist statements is it?
No, of course it isn't, but it shouldn't be banned. "I disagree with everything you say, but I will defend to the end your right to say it" - Voltaire.
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No, of course it isn't, but it shouldn't be banned. "I disagree with everything you say, but I will defend to the end your right to say it" - Voltaire.
Really? So if a paedophile says they have a right to have sex with children, that is their right to say it?
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Really? So if a paedophile says they have a right to have sex with children, that is their right to say it?
yes. Of course, they might find themselves watched, beaten up or arrested. I dont see the issue here. Paedophiles and racists clearly think their disgusting thoughts, what changes when they say them out loud?
I'll tell you what changes, at least we know who they are.
Although just to note to use racism and paedophilia as some kind of comparison seems hugely flawed to me.
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yes. Of course, they might find themselves watched, beaten up or arrested. I dont see the issue here. Paedophiles and racists clearly think their disgusting thoughts, what changes when they say them out loud?
I'll tell you what changes, at least we know who they are.
But by stating it aloud they encourage other likeminded people. In the 80s I was shocked and disgusted to hear a BBC broadcast by a member of the Paedophile Information Exchange, stating that they had a right to have sex with children. It wasn't long after that the PIE was a banned organisation. Do you think it was wrong to ban it and they should have been permitted to continue to express their perverted views?
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Really? So if a paedophile says they have a right to have sex with children, that is their right to say it?
Yep. It's not incitement.
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But by stating it aloud they encourage other likeminded people. In the 80s I was shocked and disgusted to hear a BBC broadcast by a member of the Paedophile Information Exchange, stating that they had a right to have sex with children. It wasn't long after that the PIE was a banned organisation. Do you think it was wrong to ban it and they should have been permitted to continue to express their perverted views?
No I woud not have banned it. In addition, and I am not sure we will ever know this for sure, it may well have been counter productive in that it drove paedophiles underground. And I don't think even you would claim that there has been a reduction in child abuse since the 80's. Although again the nature of the beast means that we will never know for sure. Baning anything seldom has the effect wanted. Look at drugs, prohibition even homosexuality. Ban somethingnand people will still drink it, smoke it, suck it, fuck it.
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No I woud not have banned it. In addition, and I am not sure we will ever know this for sure, it may well have been counter productive in that it drove paedophiles underground. And I don't think even you would claim that there has been a reduction in child abuse since the 80's. Although again the nature of the beast means that we will never know for sure. Baning anything seldom has the effect wanted. Look at drus, prohibition even homosexuality. Ban somethingnand people will still drink it, smoke it, suck it, fuck it.
And there were people who said that people expressing that they should be allowed to be gay and act on it should have been banned.
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Really? So if a paedophile says they have a right to have sex with children, that is their right to say it?
Tosay it, yes. To do it, no.
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Well we will have to agree to differ over this topic.
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Well we will have to agree to differ over this topic.
That's what you always say when you've lost an argument.
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Yes, agree very much with this. It's an issue for Labour.
Meanwhile in Germany. Try and read the last quote and not feel sick.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/22/german-leftwingers-woo-voters-with-national-social-stance?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Meanwhile in Germany. Try and read the last quote and not feel sick.
Which quote?
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Which quote?
Might help with link
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/22/german-leftwingers-woo-voters-with-national-social-stance?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Might help with link
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/22/german-leftwingers-woo-voters-with-national-social-stance?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Blimey. Isn't that hate speech? Presumably Germans have laws restricting Holocaust denial - mistaken laws I think - but don't ban that.
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D'you know what, I think I'll just go and look at some pure videos of kittens.
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Blimey. Isn't that hate speech? Presumably Germans have laws restricting Holocaust denial - mistaken laws I think - but don't ban that.
He's not calling for killing. And could argue that he is merely suggesting a 'holding facility ', sort of like our detention centres are.
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So it is ok to make disgusting racist statements is it?
No it's not but the question is whether it should be illegal.
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Racism seems to be rearing its very ugly head again and must be cracked down on very severely.
Just had a look at this thread the link on the O P wont let me enter, but I assume you'r referring to UKIP as a racist organisation, I've heard this before but have never heard or red anything said by any UKIP members that is racist, please enlighten me, have I missed something?
Regards ippy.
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Just had a look at this thread the link on the O P wont let me enter, but I assume you'r referring to UKIP as a racist organisation, I've heard this before but have never heard or red anything said by any UKIP members that is racist, please enlighten me, have I missed something?
Regards ippy.
“RAPE-GANG members are predominantly followers of the cult of Mohammed,” declares the speaker, in a matter-of-fact tone. The crowd gathered on Whitehall boo. “The founder of their cult was himself a paedophile and kept sex slaves,” he continues in a near monotone. MPs are “traitors, collaborators and quislings,” he adds. “They must be swept away.” The language was incendiary, the delivery was prosaic and the messenger was Gerard Batten, the leader of the UK Independence Party.
That’s the first paragraph of the article in the link.
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Just had a look at this thread the link on the O P wont let me enter, but I assume you'r referring to UKIP as a racist organisation, I've heard this before but have never heard or red anything said by any UKIP members that is racist, please enlighten me, have I missed something?
Regards ippy.
No idea why the link doesn't work for you but are you honestly seeing you missed all of these from three years previously?.
https://leftfootforward.org/2015/02/is-ukip-a-racist-party-these-15-comments-would-suggest-so/
And the most recent issue as in the link is worse.n
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No idea why the link doesn't work for you but are you honestly seeing you missed all of these from three years previously?.
https://leftfootforward.org/2015/02/is-ukip-a-racist-party-these-15-comments-would-suggest-so/
And the most recent issue as in the link is worse.n
I managed to open your link N S, 2-5-12 and 14 were outright racists as described, number 10 Harry Perry, I thought was very odd with a bit of everything thrown in, I wouldn't want to see him in any position of authority.
The rest were mainly anti-Islam, which might not be very likeable but anti-Islam is anti-Islam it isn't racist, the others were just the sort of thing you might hear in any pub in anytown, but none the less would I M O disqualify them from office rather than see them as deep rooted racists even though I can see how these sorts of view are found so very objectionable by lots of people and they were after all rejected by YUKIP.
Of course I can also see how these kinds of people would be even more objectionable to those on the loosing side of the referendum and I'm equally sure the looser's would be on the look out for any faults in the people they oppose, when that's all they've got left.
I'm not exactly a follower of the supposed good book but it's not utter and complete rubbish, I'm sure there's something in it I read about who should be throwing the first stone.
Regards ippy
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Missing the point Ipster.
UKIP have always had more than a tinge off racism attached to them, long b4 the referendum which I and others on here opposed way back.
Its nothing to do with the winning/losing side (although that very mindset reveals something slightly distasteful). Its all to do with common human decency.
Lets just say there isnt a great deal of that to be found within the ranks of UKIP.
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Although there is an argument that UKIP are moving further to the right, in response to the govt's gyrations over Brexit. I don't know if it's true.
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I hate the argument that calling out Ukip's racism is sour grapes.
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Well, I tend to say you won get over it. Many Brexit people I chat to, seem eaten up with anger and fear and distrust.
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Missing the point Ipster.
UKIP have always had more than a tinge off racism attached to them, long b4 the referendum which I and others on here opposed way back.
Its nothing to do with the winning/losing side (although that very mindset reveals something slightly distasteful). Its all to do with common human decency.
Lets just say there isnt a great deal of that to be found within the ranks of UKIP.
Just for the sake of argument let's agree you're right, what has that got to do with the fact that the majority of the U K voted to leave the EU, something we didn't have any say about, we originally voted to join the E E C.
Oh yes and there's no racism to be found anywhere else in any of the MP's sitting in the commons?
Isn't that useless little twerp having trouble with anti-Semitism within his group?
Even the people of colour have racists among themselves, it's regrettable but still one of those unpleasant facts.
Regards ippy
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I hate the argument that calling out Ukip's racism is sour grapes.
Well give up on the sour grapes in general then.
Regards ippy
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Just for the sake of argument let's agree you're right, what has that got to do with the fact that the majority of the U K voted to leave the EU,
Actually it was the majority of people who voted. A technical but important point to remember.
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Actually it was the majority of people who voted. A technical but important point to remember.
Bloody semantics, then it's hard luck on the ones that didn't vote then, that's their problem.
ippy
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Well give up on the sour grapes in general then.
Regards ippy
So you aren't bothered by racism?
Because you seem to be defining racism as sour grapes.
PS how would you say BREXIT is going? Bad, Really bad, awful, fucking awful or a total twatting disaster.
There are no other options available at this time.
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Well give up on the sour grapes in general then.
Regards ippy
I don't have sour grapes, Ippy, I'm scared. Scared I won't be able to find work, scared I won't be able to buy food for my kids. I'm scared that my rights will be eroded, that the environment will be damaged, that neighbours I value will be forced to leave this country, that the deals we need just to survive will mean cosying up to Trump and accepting all kinds of things that we wouldn't have needed to previously.
And I'm scared at how easily you and others like you are 'othering' people who don't agree with you.
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Actually it was the majority of people who voted. A technical but important point to remember.
And only a very slim majority of them.
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I don't have sour grapes, Ippy, I'm scared. Scared I won't be able to find work, scared I won't be able to buy food for my kids. I'm scared that my rights will be eroded, that the environment will be damaged, that neighbours I value will be forced to leave this country, that the deals we need just to survive will mean cosying up to Trump and accepting all kinds of things that we wouldn't have needed to previously.
And I'm scared at how easily you and others like you are 'othering' people who don't agree with you.
Well said, Rhiannon. People like Rees-Mogg scare me. They seem to want a low tax, low regulation tax haven, where he and his chums will rake in the dosh, and the Daily Mail castigates slackers and foreigners. How have we got here?
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So you aren't bothered by racism?
Because you seem to be defining racism as sour grapes.
PS how would you say BREXIT is going? Bad, Really bad, awful, fucking awful or a total twatting disaster.
There are no other options available at this time.
No I'm not a racist but at the same time I'm a realist and if anyone that posts here on this forum wishes to be a semanticist well bully for them, fine but that's a direction I will not be going in at any time.
Regards ippy.
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And only a very slim majority of them.
Which might have been even slimmer (or reversed) if the electorate hadn't been told outright lies. Which, wonder of wonders, now have to be explained away as if they were not categorically affirmed in the first place. Let alone problems of the Irish border, which perhaps a lot of the electorate might have been forgiven for overlooking. But it seems that the government itself only cottoned on to the problem rather late in the day - and there's no excuse for them.
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Well said, Rhiannon. People like Rees-Mogg scare me. They seem to want a low tax, low regulation tax haven, where he and his chums will rake in the dosh, and the Daily Mail castigates slackers and foreigners. How have we got here?
Rees-Mogg scares me too. I'm quite astonished by his rise to prominence (which is not quite "without trace"*). I suppose the brake on his rise to supremacy will be his lack of broad-spectrum popularity, but who knows? He seems to be cashing in on his image as "the English gentleman", but I find him incredibly sinister.
*This of course was once said of David Frost by Kitty Muggeridge.
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Which might have been even slimmer (or reversed) if the electorate hadn't been told outright lies. Which, wonder of wonders, now have to be explained away as if they were not categorically affirmed in the first place. Let alone problems of the Irish border, which perhaps a lot of the electorate might have been forgiven for overlooking. But it seems that the government itself only cottoned on to the problem rather late in the day - and there's no excuse for them.
Yes, when a political party lies to the electorate about its intentions in government, at the next election they can get kicked out. We dont get teh chance to vote again as to what lies we will and won't accept over Brexit.
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And only a very slim majority of them.
True: but in the circumcises that doesn't count for anything, do it?
You can say that there should never even have been a referendum in the first place, which is a perfectly legitimate and valid view.
You can say that it was a spectacularly misjudged gamble on Cameron's part to appease the right-wing-anti-EU side of the Tories, which is a perfectly legitimate and valid view.
You can even take the stance that even if you allow the legitimacy of a referendum in the first place, it should have been decided on the basis of a super-majority as happens in certain votes in certain places - two-thirds, or three quarters, or whatever. Which is a perfectly legitimate and valid view.
It wasn't, though.
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True: but in the circumcises that doesn't count for anything, do it?
You can say that there should never even have been a referendum in the first place, which is a perfectly legitimate and valid view.
You can say that it was a spectacularly misjudged gamble on Cameron's part to appease the right-wing-anti-EU side of the Tories, which is a perfectly legitimate and valid view.
You can even take the stance that even if you allow the legitimacy of a referendum in the first place, it should have been decided on the basis of a super-majority as happens in certain votes in certain places - two-thirds, or three quarters, or whatever. Which is a perfectly legitimate and valid view.
It wasn't, though.
You can also take the view that it was an advisory referendum, which is a perfectly legitimate and valid view. And it was, though.
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But not treated as such.
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But not treated as such.
In the circumstances I don't think that counts for anything.
Anyhow, seeing as brexit means brexit, I am still interested in knowing which of my options posters think the tories are achieving. Bearing in mind that they have always been a party of under achievers.
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They're Tories. Of course they're under-achieving. It's part of the deal and the definition.
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So when people voted for Brexit with a Tory government in charge, who did people think would be delivering the said Brexit?
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Even the unpleasant Farage thinks this is a step too far for UKIP.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46308160
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It is an admission that UKIP is truly an extreme right-wing organisation. We should not be surprised by this - there appears to be a notable shift to the right in many countries.
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It is an admission that UKIP is truly an extreme right-wing organisation. We should not be surprised by this - there appears to be a notable shift to the right in many countries.
That is very scary. :o