Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: NicholasMarks on August 12, 2018, 12:58:26 PM
-
Jesus Christ Saves...is a sign seen outside many Christian establishments. Faith, is the key-word, here, and those who seek Jesus earnestly are seldom disappointed. There are forces at work that faith delivers into our own individual realm of being...and here, if I'm able, I would like to discuss Faith, instead the mechanics behind our faith.
-
Jesus Christ Saves...is a sign seen outside many Christian establishments. Faith, is the key-word, here, and those who seek Jesus earnestly are seldom disappointed.
So they're disappointed sometimes, then ... how does that work?
-
Jesus Christ Saves...is a sign seen outside many Christian establishments. Faith, is the key-word, here, and those who seek Jesus earnestly are seldom disappointed. There are forces at work that faith delivers into our own individual realm of being...and here, if I'm able, I would like to discuss Faith, instead the mechanics behind our faith.
You really should think about this one, Sparky. Which of these would desperately want people to believe in him. without providing an iota of evidence?
1) A god who has unlimited power, who can create galaxies and everything in them ; Create every creature, large and small; Answer any prayer it wishes to; Send people to Heaven or Hell at a whim; Give babies cancer for no reason and yet find someone’s car keys merely because they asked him nicely. OR
2) A guy who wants to start a religion, such as Saul/Paul.
-
Faith. . . . .can i put it up against the wall and throw some rotten eggs at it? Then give it a good old whippin, then shove it in a metal container and burn it. Please.
-
Jesus Christ Saves...is a sign seen outside many Christian establishments. Faith, is the key-word, here, and those who seek Jesus earnestly are seldom disappointed. There are forces at work that faith delivers into our own individual realm of being...and here, if I'm able, I would like to discuss Faith, instead the mechanics behind our faith.
There is so much wrong with the idea that some god wants us to believe by faith. If it is a morally good god, that has an important message for its creation, then why isn't it making it obvious to everybody? Why the silly game of hiding away from any sound and rational way of finding it?
Is it incapable of making itself clearly known (not much of a god, then)? Unwilling or likes to play silly games with people's lives (not a good and fair god)?
-
Stranger/savillerow/jjohnjil/Shaker...
We can have faith in Almighty God, because of Jesus Christ and we can have faith in Jesus Christ because of Almighty God. They each showed extreme faith in each other because Jesus believed in his father's teaching so much, knowing that he would be resurrected when the antiChrist crucified him...his life wouldn't be lost.
Faith is the belief in a powerful reasoning that carries great weight in our minds eye...so much so that we follow that reasoning to Nth degree because that reasoning holds a huge benefit for us...and dying for your belief in your father to resurrect you is showing an incredible faith, especially when its precise purpose is to convey a deep and meaningful faith for kind-hearted, caring people faced with the same frightening forces that Jesus Christ had to face.
So, by our faith in Jesus, and his teaching, we know that though the flesh dies, we don't...but it is all so wrapped up in a teaching that no man understandeth, that faith is our best option...and it certainly works for me.
-
Stranger/savillerow/jjohnjil/Shaker...
We can have faith in Almighty God, because of Jesus Christ and we can have faith in Jesus Christ because of Almighty God...
eeerm, you really can't spot the circularity in that reasoning ?
Really ?
-
Faith is the belief in a powerful reasoning that carries great weight in our minds eye...so much so that we follow that reasoning to Nth degree because that reasoning holds a huge benefit for us...and dying for your belief in your father to resurrect you is showing an incredible faith, especially when its precise purpose is to convey a deep and meaningful faith for kind-hearted, caring people faced with the same frightening forces that Jesus Christ had to face.
No amount of appealing will obscure the fact that faith is fundamentally immoral, requiring us to be untrue to the principals of evidence and reason. Faith is a false friend.
-
Well at least there is no mention of electricity.
That has to be a bonus!
-
torro/Seb...
Faith is a wonderful thing. We are never alone when we have faith...and it is a tactic of the bully to make you think you are alone...got no one to turn to...when, in fact, if we had been following Jesus by faith, we would have everything Jesus said we would have, behind us. Namely, the authority of Almighty God.
The sense that we have no one to turn to is a state of the mind that feeds the emotional black-hole that the Samaritans have to deal with on a regular basis...so that any help here might be useful to all those who understand what an emotional black-hole is. It is a state of mind where there is no faith in anybody or anything at all, and because of the ways of how the mind works, it keeps going round and round in circles analysing the same point of distress where there are no answers, and emotional exhaustion runs hand in hand with it.
I once worked in a factory full of women who were being bullied by these tactics of emotional distress and their state of hysteria due to these bullying tactics made me realise why faith in Jesus Christ is much more important than faith in man...no matter what qualifications they may have.
-
Nick
"it keeps going round and round in circles analysing the same point of distress"
Sounds like you and your emotionally distressed fixation with "the end" wormwood and "soon".
You have been in this distressed state for at least 10 years!
Is it not time to take a break and calm down?
-
torro/Seb...
Faith is a wonderful thing. We are never alone when we have faith...and it is a tactic of the bully to make you think you are alone...got no one to turn to...when, in fact, if we had been following Jesus by faith, we would have everything Jesus said we would have, behind us. Namely, the authority of Almighty God.
The sense that we have no one to turn to is a state of the mind that feeds the emotional black-hole that the Samaritans have to deal with on a regular basis...so that any help here might be useful to all those who understand what an emotional black-hole is. It is a state of mind where there is no faith in anybody or anything at all, and because of the ways of how the mind works, it keeps going round and round in circles analysing the same point of distress where there are no answers, and emotional exhaustion runs hand in hand with it.
I once worked in a factory full of women who were being bullied by these tactics of emotional distress and their state of hysteria due to these bullying tactics made me realise why faith in Jesus Christ is much more important than faith in man...no matthttp://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?action=post;quote=743541;topic=15948.0er what qualifications they may have.
The only bully around here, Nick, is you! You threaten everyone who doesn't see it your way with horror after horror!
It's always been obvious that you are so obsessed with being resurrected after death that you'd believe any bullshit that might get it for you! Well there isn't a plant or animal on earth that doesn't die and you'll be no exception, my friend!
-
Jesus Christ Saves...is a sign seen outside many Christian establishments. Faith, is the key-word, here, and those who seek Jesus earnestly are seldom disappointed. There are forces at work that faith delivers into our own individual realm of being...and here, if I'm able, I would like to discuss Faith, instead the mechanics behind our faith.
"Trinity' is also a sign seen outside Christian Churches...and, like "Jesus Saves" is in accordance with all ACCURATE translations of Scripture.
-
Stranger/savillerow/jjohnjil/Shaker...
We can have faith in Almighty God, because of Jesus Christ and we can have faith in Jesus Christ because of Almighty God. They each showed extreme faith in each other because Jesus believed in his father's teaching so much, knowing that he would be resurrected when the antiChrist crucified him...his life wouldn't be lost.
Faith is the belief in a powerful reasoning that carries great weight in our minds eye...so much so that we follow that reasoning to Nth degree because that reasoning holds a huge benefit for us...and dying for your belief in your father to resurrect you is showing an incredible faith, especially when its precise purpose is to convey a deep and meaningful faith for kind-hearted, caring people faced with the same frightening forces that Jesus Christ had to face.
So, by our faith in Jesus, and his teaching, we know that though the flesh dies, we don't...but it is all so wrapped up in a teaching that no man understandeth, that faith is our best option...and it certainly works for me.
This is going to be a thread requiring paracetamol, Laphroaig, or both.
-
torro/Seb... Faith is a wonderful thing. We are never alone when we have faith...and it is a tactic of the bully to make you think you are alone...got no one to turn to...when, in fact, if we had been following Jesus by faith, we would have everything Jesus said we would have, behind us. Namely, the authority of Almighty God. The sense that we have no one to turn to is a state of the mind that feeds the emotional black-hole that the Samaritans have to deal with on a regular basis...so that any help here might be useful to all those who understand what an emotional black-hole is. It is a state of mind where there is no faith in anybody or anything at all, and because of the ways of how the mind works, it keeps going round and round in circles analysing the same point of distress where there are no answers, and emotional exhaustion runs hand in hand with it. I once worked in a factory full of women who were being bullied by these tactics of emotional distress and their state of hysteria due to these bullying tactics made me realise why faith in Jesus Christ is much more important than faith in man...no matter what qualifications they may have.
All authority, according to Scripture, is not given to us - it is vested in Christ - and Him alone, as the second person of the triune God. That's normal Christian doctrine, based on Scripture. And, indeed, if we accept Him as Lord, we can trust Him, know Him in our lives, let Him be part of who we are. Again, standard Christian doctrine, and with which I concur with every fibre of my being. But why bring in the Samaritans? Are you claiming expertise in mental health, as well as cience and physics? Way to go = three out of three; 100% failure rate. Congratulations. You DO realise that Christians - committed Christians; Bible-believing Christians, can suffer from the very real mwedical disease of clinical depression, as well as other well-documented mental illnesses, which can lead them to contemplate suicide - and sometimes, regrettably, succeeed? You DO know that Christians - committed, Bible believers - can seek suicide as an alternative for a life-limiting, debilitating or terminal illness? Not some spiritual pseudoscientific technobabble, NM, real, medical factual conditions. There, thank GOD, the Samaritans can sometimes offer a non judgemental ear when sometimes, all some Christians want to do is fling Scripture at them in the hope it sticks, rather than walk with them, listen to them, and be with them. Don't ruin any Christian Witness with any vile trash about mental illness being some klack of dynamic energy caused by an aircraft leaving a trail spelling out the name of a planet some cretin says is going to collide with us.
-
Anchorman/jjohnjil/Seb...
Anchorman...
You missed the point about the factory full of women who were being treated abysmally and where I started my voyage of discovery and how all this behaviour was so damaging to health and common decency...a point stressed by Jesus Christ in his many sermons...and how to deal with it...and it works...and it all comes down to winding people up whilst Jesus shows us how to unwind and connects it all with our health and welfare.
jjohnjil...
That is another delusion of the mind jjohnjil, when the one trying to help you is besmirched as the creator of the problems. If you don't believe we are all in danger try reading Revelation...especially 21:8.
Seb...
Well you can't say you aren't getting the message Seb. The emotional black-hole has been the folly of many people before now...and going round and round in circular argument the cause behind it...ask any who are being bullied especially battered wives and those who have suffered at the hands of abusers. Faith can help them as well and is at the root of Jesus Christ's words to walk the extra mile and turn the other cheek because it is so important to maintain our spiritual faith just as Jesus did when he was crucified. Of course, if you don't much care for these matters, then you won't need any faith.
-
You missed the point about the factory full of women who were being treated abysmally and where I started my voyage of discovery and how all this behaviour was so damaging to health and common decency...a point stressed by Jesus Christ in his many sermons...and how to deal with it...and it works...and it all comes down to winding people up whilst Jesus shows us how to unwind and connects it all with our health and welfare.
Clearly if you believed any of that you wouldn't be spending time on the internet trying to wind people up on messageboards. You aren't fooling anyone around here I'm afraid.
-
Anchorman/jjohnjil/Seb...
Anchorman...
You missed the point about the factory full of women who were being treated abysmally and where I started my voyage of discovery and how all this behaviour was so damaging to health and common decency...a point stressed by Jesus Christ in his many sermons...and how to deal with it...and it works...and it all comes down to winding people up whilst Jesus shows us how to unwind and connects it all with our health and welfare.
jjohnjil...
That is another delusion of the mind jjohnjil, when the one trying to help you is besmirched as the creator of the problems. If you don't believe we are all in danger try reading Revelation...especially 21:8.
Seb...
Well you can't say you aren't getting the message Seb. The emotional black-hole has been the folly of many people before now...and going round and round in circular argument the cause behind it...ask any who are being bullied especially battered wives and those who have suffered at the hands of abusers. Faith can help them as well and is at the root of Jesus Christ's words to walk the extra mile and turn the other cheek because it is so important to maintain our spiritual faith just as Jesus did when he was crucified. Of course, if you don't much care for these matters, then you won't need any faith.
NM:
As a disabled Christian, who has contact with disabled people of all faiths and none, some advice.
STUP TALKING ROT.
You clearly have the same knowledger of health and disease as you have for physics, chemistry, aeronautics, ancient history, and, for that matter, apologetics.
When you're in a hole, stop digging.
You only cover yourself in dirt.
-
Faith is the belief in a powerful reasoning...
If is reasoning, then it isn't faith.
...that carries great weight in our minds eye...so much so that we follow that reasoning to Nth degree because that reasoning holds a huge benefit for us...and dying for your belief in your father to resurrect you is showing an incredible faith, especially when its precise purpose is to convey a deep and meaningful faith for kind-hearted, caring people faced with the same frightening forces that Jesus Christ had to face.
None of this waffle is telling me why a just and fair god with an important message is not making its message obvious and requires faith instead.
-
Right;
Before you mangle the definition of faith as set down in Scripture, NM. here's the chapter you should read.
I'm giving you a decent version, not the New World liars translation.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV
Now, don'r waste it with pseudoscientific twaddle.
Non't put a spin on it which isn't there, either.
And there are no aeroplane trails, so don't worrt.
-
Anchorman/Stranger/torri...
You see then Anchorman, faith is a wonderful thing. I didn't put it there, Jesus did and it inspired Paul to mention in Hebrew the same things I am saying here. Faith gives us endurance and a righteous spirit to work with so condemnation of faith is a little irresponsible. By following faith we upbuild a wonderful righteous spirit, a Holy Spirit, because it thinks, responds and acts by following Jesus and there are things activated which passeth all understanding, especially superiority over evil...all because of faith...but only as Jesus expressed it.
-
Anchorman/Stranger/torri...
You see then Anchorman, faith is a wonderful thing. I didn't put it there, Jesus did and it inspired Paul to mention in Hebrew the same things I am saying here. Faith gives us endurance and a righteous spirit to work with so condemnation of faith is a little irresponsible. By following faith we upbuild a wonderful righteous spirit, a Holy Spirit, because it thinks, responds and acts by following Jesus and there are things activated which passeth all understanding, especially superiority over evil...all because of faith...but only as Jesus expressed it.
Er....
I thought you went in for accuracy, NM?
You stated that Paul wrote Hebrews.
On what are you basing this, please?
I admit that the consensus amongst scholars is that this was probably a Pauline letter - but if you want to be 'scientific' about it, you cannot state the author for certan.
Please provide verifiable likns from peer-reved sites which con firm your assurane of Paul as author.
Once you do so, we can move to the rest of your post - accurately, of course.
-
You see then Anchorman, faith is a wonderful thing. I didn't put it there, Jesus did and it inspired Paul to mention in Hebrew the same things I am saying here. Faith gives us endurance and a righteous spirit to work with so condemnation of faith is a little irresponsible. By following faith we upbuild a wonderful righteous spirit, a Holy Spirit, because it thinks, responds and acts by following Jesus and there are things activated which passeth all understanding, especially superiority over evil...all because of faith...but only as Jesus expressed it.
Again, none of this waffle is telling me why a just and fair god with an important message is not making its message obvious and requires faith instead.
Faith in the sense of believing without evidences is idiotic.
-
Er....
I thought you went in for accuracy, NM?
You stated that Paul wrote Hebrews.
On what are you basing this, please?
I admit that the consensus amongst scholars is that this was probably a Pauline letter - but if you want to be 'scientific' about it, you cannot state the author for certan.
Please provide verifiable likns from peer-reved sites which con firm your assurane of Paul as author.
Once you do so, we can move to the rest of your post - accurately, of course.
With faith we operate at a different level than science...we already have a deep belief in the many tendrils of spiritual encouragement leading us to righteousness because Jesus said so...but if you need proof I will give you proof...the book of Hebrew is written in the same style and rythmn of Paul's other spiritual thoughts which indicate the same author but if this isn't sufficient, let us just say...I know by faith.
-
Again, none of this waffle is telling me why a just and fair god with an important message is not making its message obvious and requires faith instead.
Faith in the sense of believing without evidences is idiotic.
Faith in Jesus Christ is surrounded by evidence it just requires peeling away from the lies and propaganda of those who refuse to acknowledge the evidence. Though in their inner circles they despise Jesus they are not beyond pretending to be followers of Jesus so that iniquity can nullify the power that faith in Jesus delivers...but faith is still a requirement and still delivers the same righteous goods it is just that we need to have faith in Jesus' accurate word not iniquities.
-
With faith we operate at a different level than science...we already have a deep belief in the many tendrils of spiritual encouragement leading us to righteousness because Jesus said so...but if you need proof I will give you proof...the book of Hebrew is written in the same style and rythmn of Paul's other spiritual thoughts which indicate the same author but if this isn't sufficient, let us just say...I know by faith.
I see Nick, in other words you just believe it's all true you can't prove it's true and you can't possibly know for certain it is all true.
Have I got it right Nick?
Regards ippy
-
With faith we operate at a different level than science...we already have a deep belief in the many tendrils of spiritual encouragement leading us to righteousness because Jesus said so...but if you need proof I will give you proof...the book of Hebrew is written in the same style and rythmn of Paul's other spiritual thoughts which indicate the same author but if this isn't sufficient, let us just say...I know by faith.
Says it all, really.
I ask you to do a basic thing: cire evidence as to Paul's authorship of the letter.
Even here, you seem totally unable to do so.
For your information, I can cite at least six reputable sources - qualified in their fields - who do indeed have Paul as author.
That you can't - or won't - be bothered doing the same thing say much, sadly.
-
Faith in Jesus Christ is surrounded by evidence...
Where is it?
-
torro/Seb...
Faith is a wonderful thing. We are never alone when we have faith...and it is a tactic of the bully to make you think you are alone...got no one to turn to...when, in fact, if we had been following Jesus by faith, we would have everything Jesus said we would have, behind us. Namely, the authority of Almighty God.
The sense that we have no one to turn to is a state of the mind that feeds the emotional black-hole that the Samaritans have to deal with on a regular basis...so that any help here might be useful to all those who understand what an emotional black-hole is. It is a state of mind where there is no faith in anybody or anything at all, and because of the ways of how the mind works, it keeps going round and round in circles analysing the same point of distress where there are no answers, and emotional exhaustion runs hand in hand with it.
I once worked in a factory full of women who were being bullied by these tactics of emotional distress and their state of hysteria due to these bullying tactics made me realise why faith in Jesus Christ is much more important than faith in man...no matter what qualifications they may have.
Faith is NOT a pathway to truth.
Do you care if your beliefs are true?
-
Where is it?
Whoa.......
Does he mean "Faith in Jesus Christ"....for which there is abundand evidence;
or "Jesus Christ" - for whom there IS evidence, but I suspect he won't be bothered to post it.
-
ippy/Anchorman/BeRational/Stranger...
Faith is the keyword behind the Christian teaching of Jesus Christ because it is the best way to interact with the knowledge that passeth all understanding but, never the less, is full of eternal promises...like how to live in peace and harmony with all our neighbours...easily achieved, when we each work for the same God, by the same laws and Jesus Christ lived those laws to ensure we knew exactly what he is talking about.
The highest principle achievable by righteous laws was displayed for us, in that, a person who follows righteous laws never dies in the full sense of the word but can be resurrected into a new vessel and thereby a better vessel than the one we left. But we need faith because it is a journey that otherwise claims an unrighteous spirit and locks it in the ether...the invisible plasma that surrounds the planet...the same stuff that Jesus showed us how to escape via the spiritual strength of our faith in him...but here is the warning...the ether is shortly to be emptied of all its debris, emptied into a fiery lake of sulphur where faith will be irrelevant, and eternal damnation will be served.
-
ippy/Anchorman/BeRational/Stranger...
Faith is the keyword behind the Christian teaching of Jesus Christ because it is the best way to interact with the knowledge that passeth all understanding but, never the less, is full of eternal promises...like how to live in peace and harmony with all our neighbours...easily achieved, when we each work for the same God, by the same laws and Jesus Christ lived those laws to ensure we knew exactly what he is talking about.
The highest principle achievable by righteous laws was displayed for us, in that, a person who follows righteous laws never dies in the full sense of the word but can be resurrected into a new vessel and thereby a better vessel than the one we left. But we need faith because it is a journey that otherwise claims an unrighteous spirit and locks it in the ether...the invisible plasma that surrounds the planet...the same stuff that Jesus showed us how to escape via the spiritual strength of our faith in him...but here is the warning...the ether is shortly to be emptied of all its debris, emptied into a fiery lake of sulphur where faith will be irrelevant, and eternal damnation will be served.
You should never use faith.
I never do.
-
ippy/Anchorman/BeRational/Stranger...
Faith is the keyword behind the Christian teaching of Jesus Christ because it is the best way to interact with the knowledge that passeth all understanding but, never the less, is full of eternal promises...like how to live in peace and harmony with all our neighbours...easily achieved, when we each work for the same God, by the same laws and Jesus Christ lived those laws to ensure we knew exactly what he is talking about.
The highest principle achievable by righteous laws was displayed for us, in that, a person who follows righteous laws never dies in the full sense of the word but can be resurrected into a new vessel and thereby a better vessel than the one we left. But we need faith because it is a journey that otherwise claims an unrighteous spirit and locks it in the ether...the invisible plasma that surrounds the planet...the same stuff that Jesus showed us how to escape via the spiritual strength of our faith in him...but here is the warning...the ether is shortly to be emptied of all its debris, emptied into a fiery lake of sulphur where faith will be irrelevant, and eternal damnation will be served.
So you believe but don't actually know Nick.
Regards ippy
-
You should never use faith.
I never do.
Faith is a component part of believing in something or someone who has all the right answers to our most serious problems but which is beyond our intellect. If a person dies but is resurrected then we have a deep and wonderful introduction to a possibility for us all. That we can be resurrected by the same faith. It means having faith in an all knowing Deity but that Deity has made it abundantly clear that our faith is well spent if we attach ourselves to their righteous teaching. My faith has introduced a small portion of that knowledge to me and because that knowledge is indesputeable it means that my faith has been well spent.
-
Faith is a component part of believing in something or someone who has all the right answers to our most serious problems but which is beyond our intellect. If a person dies but is resurrected then we have a deep and wonderful introduction to a possibility for us all. That we can be resurrected by the same faith. It means having faith in an all knowing Deity but that Deity has made it abundantly clear that our faith is well spent if we attach ourselves to their righteous teaching. My faith has introduced a small portion of that knowledge to me and because that knowledge is indesputeable it means that my faith has been well spent.
Clearly circular reasoning. Your faith that Jesus gets resurrected is grounds for having faith in Jesus. Are you unable to spot that ? That is a weak defence of the principal of faith.
Faith is the enemy of a truthful reasoning mind. It closes the mind to other possibilities. An open mind on the other hand is always amenable to new findings and ready to accept they were wrong in the past.
-
But we need faith because it is a journey that otherwise claims an unrighteous spirit and locks it in the ether...the invisible plasma that surrounds the planet...the same stuff...
Back to the pretend science babble... ::)
Faith is a component part of believing in something or...[blah, blah, blah...]
You still haven't explained why a just and fair god with an important message isn't making it obvious to everybody and instead wants people to believe by faith with no evidence. It doesn't make sense.
-
Clearly circular reasoning. Your faith that Jesus gets resurrected is grounds for having faith in Jesus. Are you unable to spot that ? That is a weak defence of the principal of faith.
Faith is the enemy of a truthful reasoning mind. It closes the mind to other possibilities. An open mind on the other hand is always amenable to new findings and ready to accept they were wrong in the past.
One of the most wonderful attributes of following Jesus Christ torrid is that it opens up the mind. Many are bogged down mentally and emotionally because of the false reasoning that is spewed out daily upon the unsuspecting, this is the key reason that the NHS is buckling at the knees. Faith in Jesus lifts us out ot that turmoil as long as we realise that faith here is a verb...a word that requires action...and because iniquity and the antiChrist want to keep us oppressed they will not acknowledge the truth...in fact, actively alter the truth so that people are confused...that is why we need faith.
-
One of the most wonderful attributes of following Jesus Christ torrid is that it opens up the mind....
Didn't need to read the rest of your post, the opening words alone show the shallowness of your thinking. The way to have an open mind does not consist in 'following' someone. The way to have an open mind is pretty much the opposite, we need to avoid 'following', that is a recipe to close the mind to everything else bar that which you are following.
-
Back to the pretend science babble... ::)
You still haven't explained why a just and fair god with an important message isn't making it obvious to everybody and instead wants people to believe by faith with no evidence. It doesn't make sense.
Your God and mine sent Jesus Christ as a first step in doing what you suggest Stranger but the evil forces here on planet Earth are continually trying to destroy righteous ways. So, we have to, by faith, take God at his word. He is going to wait for the moment when the fiery lake of sulphur descends upon us and as a token of his wrath allow all those who do not seriously, and sincerely repent, to be evicted from this planet...spiritually, not physically, and all those who remain will breathe a huge sigh of relief. It's all in the Holy Bible, and in particular Revelation.
-
One of the most wonderful attributes of following Jesus Christ torrid is that it opens up the mind. Many are bogged down mentally and emotionally because of the false reasoning that is spewed out daily upon the unsuspecting...
You do an awful lot of spewing out of false reasoning yourself... ::)
And you still haven't explained why a just and fair god with an important message isn't making it obvious to everybody and instead wants people to believe by faith with no evidence.
-
Didn't need to read the rest of your post, the opening words alone show the shallowness of your thinking. The way to have an open mind does not consist in 'following' someone. The way to have an open mind is pretty much the opposite, we need to avoid 'following', that is a recipe to close the mind to everything else bar that which you are following.
The way to have an open mind is for the blood and the air, the hormones and the bodily nutrients to have free access to every pathway in the brain torri...Jesus Christ can deliver just that if we follow him, by faith...rather than the various and many ideas of money makers rather than health makers.
-
You do an awful lot of spewing out of false reasoning yourself... ::)
And you still haven't explained why a just and fair god with an important message isn't making it obvious to everybody and instead wants people to believe by faith with no evidence.
I thought I had Stranger...He has laid down his plan and is sticking to it but only those who take him seriously will benefit and the only way to take him seriously is to follow Jesus Christ accurately.
-
I thought I had Stranger...He has laid down his plan and is sticking to it but only those who take him seriously will benefit and the only way to take him seriously is to follow Jesus Christ accurately.
That isn't an answer. Why isn't this god of yours making itself and its message obvious to everybody? Why is there no reason to take its existences, let alone its message, seriously?
Is it not really an important message?
Does your god only like overly credulous people?
Does it like cruel games of hide-and-seek?
Does it have a bad communication problem?
What is it, why is it hiding?
-
That isn't an answer. Why isn't this god of yours making itself and its message obvious to everybody? Why is there no reason to take its existences, let alone its message, seriously?
Is it not really an important message?
Does your god only like overly credulous people?
Does it like cruel games of hide-and-seek?
Does it have a bad communication problem?
What is it, why is it hiding?
Your animosity is in your writing Stranger...Read about him, especially things like...he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son as a ransom sacrifice for our sins...so that everyone exercising faith in him could have everlasting life.
But I suppose this is too much trouble so there you go believing in your own reasoning when a much higher intellect has warned you of its folly offering you repair, resurrection, and ultimately, when our faith is complete...everlasting life, which your scientists are no were near understanding...but that doesn't mean it's unachievable...we just need faith in Jesus Christ.
-
Your animosity is in your writing Stranger...Read about him, especially things like...he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son as a ransom sacrifice for our sins...so that everyone exercising faith in him could have everlasting life.
Still no answer to my question, then. Why is the important message from a just and fair god hidden away in an old book that is a inconsistent, often contradictory, and which doesn't actually contain a coherent message anyway (yes, I have read the bible).
But I suppose this is too much trouble so there you go believing in your own reasoning when a much higher intellect has warned you of its folly...
Where is this warning and where is the "higher intellect"?
-
One of the most wonderful attributes of following Jesus Christ torrid is that it opens up the mind. Many are bogged down mentally and emotionally because of the false reasoning that is spewed out daily upon the unsuspecting, this is the key reason that the NHS is buckling at the knees. Faith in Jesus lifts us out ot that turmoil as long as we realise that faith here is a verb...a word that requires action...and because iniquity and the antiChrist want to keep us oppressed they will not acknowledge the truth...in fact, actively alter the truth so that people are confused...that is why we need faith.
Actually, one of the benefits of following Christ is that He doesn't expect us to be brainwashed automata. He allows us to use our capacity to learn, to study and to use that knowledge in the service of others - building on the evidence - note the word - evidence - of those who came before us.
I've found that the most insecure believers are those who have not the faith to accept the reality of science - not the pseudotechnobabble laughinly posted as theology - and still have complete trust in Christ Jesus as Saviour and Lord.
Oh, and by the way, your world is very small. Your NHS might be in meltdown....that in Scotland is less so.
Perhaps if you involved yourself, as many Christians do, in politics, working for those who are 'the least, the last and the lost' in society, your theories might receive a well neede spiritual jolt.
(and we're not talking dynamic wotsit, either.)
-
Still no answer to my question, then. Why is the important message from a just and fair god hidden away in an old book that is a inconsistent, often contradictory, and which doesn't actually contain a coherent message anyway (yes, I have read the bible).
Where is this warning and where is the "higher intellect"?
If I can find answers in the Holy Bible then you can too Stranger. Your attitude is preventing you, because, like so many, you refuse to accept that a wonderful teaching has been delivered to us all, whilst evil and the antiChrist are trying to ridicule it and take Christianity off the agenda with the help of their co-antagonists...iniquity.
Jesus Christ gave us everything we need to know about Almighty God, the universe, our own spiritual make-up, and the rest is up to us...either we comply by faith or take the consequences of the most serious calamity to fall on this Earth since its inception. It will put the work of Satan and his henchmen into an inconsequential past-time and will release all those saved, from any further hostility, ever again...because we will know that it is all the consequence of evil thinking...and we (those who are saved) will know better.
Can't help you Stranger if you won't help yourself.
-
Actually, one of the benefits of following Christ is that He doesn't expect us to be brainwashed automata. He allows us to use our capacity to learn, to study and to use that knowledge in the service of others - building on the evidence - note the word - evidence - of those who came before us.
I've found that the most insecure believers are those who have not the faith to accept the reality of science - not the pseudotechnobabble laughinly posted as theology - and still have complete trust in Christ Jesus as Saviour and Lord.
Oh, and by the way, your world is very small. Your NHS might be in meltdown....that in Scotland is less so.
Perhaps if you involved yourself, as many Christians do, in politics, working for those who are 'the least, the last and the lost' in society, your theories might receive a well neede spiritual jolt.
(and we're not talking dynamic wotsit, either.)
I wonder why Jesus said...avoid politics, then Anchorman. Though your ideals appear to hold the high moral ground politics has proven to be a constant talking shop where nothing really happens accept the policies of the bullies and the aggressive, and that is in sharp contrast to Jesus Christ's teaching. The real mechanics behind it all are deplorable, and I would rather steer clear of the lot of them...Remember Gosport.
-
If I can find answers in the Holy Bible then you can too Stranger.
Unfortunately since you claim to have found a lot of gibberish pretend science in the bible, the process can clearly be seem to be err... somewhat unreliable. Even leaving aside your own 'unique' interpretation, it's not like all those cults, sects, and denominations who all claim that they follow what's in the bible agree with each other, is it? All of which backs up my own impression that it has no actual coherent message and the only way people get to think it does is by cherry-picking.
Which brings me back to the question you keep avoiding: if the there is a just and fair god who wants to get its important message to its creation, why isn't it absolutely obvious to everybody?
-
I wonder why Jesus said...avoid politics, then Anchorman. Though your ideals appear to hold the high moral ground politics has proven to be a constant talking shop where nothing really happens accept the policies of the bullies and the aggressive, and that is in sharp contrast to Jesus Christ's teaching. The real mechanics behind it all are deplorable, and I would rather steer clear of the lot of them...Remember Gosport.
Where doid Jesus say "Avoid politics"?
Politics is not party politics, NM.
Politics is being involved in the world to change the world.
Jesus DID say we should be "in the world, but not of the world".
He Did tell us in Matthew 25, to look after strangers, destitutes, sick, weak, hungry, thirsty people - as if we were caring for Him.
That's politics at it's base.
Or there's the "Sermon on the mount" earlier in Matthew.
You don't GET more political - you couldn't if you tried.
When you get right down to it, Jesus Himself was a political subversive; HIs radical ideas are as dangerous now as they were then.
And you will be no doubt aware that He calls those who follow Him to be just as radical.
Do I have to point out the Scriptures for you?
-
Where doid Jesus say "Avoid politics"?
Politics is not party politics, NM.
Politics is being involved in the world to change the world.
Jesus DID say we should be "in the world, but not of the world".
He Did tell us in Matthew 25, to look after strangers, destitutes, sick, weak, hungry, thirsty people - as if we were caring for Him.
That's politics at it's base.
Or there's the "Sermon on the mount" earlier in Matthew.
You don't GET more political - you couldn't if you tried.
When you get right down to it, Jesus Himself was a political subversive; HIs radical ideas are as dangerous now as they were then.
And you will be no doubt aware that He calls those who follow Him to be just as radical.
Do I have to point out the Scriptures for you?
Jesus said...though you are in the world be no part of it...what is that if it isn't avoid the politics of the world...Jesus certainly avoided politics and they crucified him because of it. Politics is found in all groups of people and taking the consent of the people to administer unpleasant things the axis on which it spins. The problem with it all is that bullies with fixed, and unpleasent ideas can use it as a platform of deceit and it is wise not to let these people into our lives for Biblical reasons. Faith in the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ is far more important.
-
Unfortunately since you claim to have found a lot of gibberish pretend science in the bible, the process can clearly be seem to be err... somewhat unreliable. Even leaving aside your own 'unique' interpretation, it's not like all those cults, sects, and denominations who all claim that they follow what's in the bible agree with each other, is it? All of which backs up my own impression that it has no actual coherent message and the only way people get to think it does is by cherry-picking.
Which brings me back to the question you keep avoiding: if the there is a just and fair god who wants to get its important message to its creation, why isn't it absolutely obvious to everybody?
We are talking faith here Stranger...you had your opportunity to discuss the science but you chose to ridicule it out of hand....you had your chance.
Faith is something quite different. Faith is seeing a load of honest hard working people being emotionally abused and asking for Jesus Christ's help and getting it. That is why I am so hostile against the antiChrist because I know and they know what they are doing to mankind and it all revolves around winding up people until they have no emotional strength to protect themselves with. Jesus showed me how it all works, and, to quote another famous person...I was not amused.
-
Jesus avoided politics? Are you serious? You DO know the political situation in the area? That the Pharisees, Sadducces, Essenes, zealots et al were not just sitting around reading Scriptures? You do know that they were, in fact, political parties - VERY political parties? In openly criticising them, as He did - in Scripture ..."Hypocrites....sons of serpents....empty graves...." Jesus was jumping right into the political mix. You simply could not divorce Judaism from 'politics' if you tried - and Jesus certainly didn't try! There were only two ways of avoiding politics in that part of the world; being dead or leaving the area. Christ was crucified for blasphemy. That was about as political asa you could get. His accuser brought charges against Him saying that He would destroy the Temple...political spin if ever there was spin. And they charged Him with claiming to be God...a crime of which, of course, He was guilty...but not a sin. The Romans got in on the act with "INRI"....stirring up the political mess as only they could. Political? The Gospel's full of it!
-
We are talking faith here Stranger...
Yes, and you still haven't answered my question as to why we need faith rather than your god making its message obvious to everyone.
...you had your opportunity to discuss the science but you chose to ridicule it out of hand....you had your chance.
Your meaningless twaddle was in no any way connected with science, you were clearly bearing false witness.
-
Yes, and you still haven't answered my question as to why we need faith rather than your god making its message obvious to everyone.
Your meaningless twaddle was in no any way connected with science, you were clearly bearing false witness.
So some people are prone to good thinking and others prone to the thinking of the antiChrist...It is easy to spot the difference...those who are able to find faith are kinder, more caring, open to honesty and honest ideas whilst the antiChrist aren't...take your pick...but it won't stop the faithful from being saved Stranger...but we know that the liars, the muderers, the deceitful, those bearing false witness, those heavily involved in sexual malpractices have a very limited lifespan on this planet...you should applaud and welcome this because it is truly a fair and honest judgement on behalf of the faithful.
-
So some people are prone to good thinking and others prone to the thinking of the antiChrist...It is easy to spot the difference...those who are able to find faith are kinder, more caring, open to honesty and honest ideas whilst the antiChrist aren't...take your pick...but it won't stop the faithful from being saved Stranger...but we know that the liars, the muderers, the deceitful, those bearing false witness, those heavily involved in sexual malpractices have a very limited lifespan on this planet...you should applaud and welcome this because it is truly a fair and honest judgement on behalf of the faithful.
More waffle and still no answer to my question. Do you have an answer or not?
As for the rest of it, where is your evidence that those who "find faith" are kinder etc.? There's an awful lot of evil done in the name of faith in the world.
You also keep on condemning people bearing false witness when you have been exposed as doing exactly that when you pretend to understand a deep science that can unite the forces of nature but are so ignorant of the subject that you don't know the difference between force and energy.
Now, once again: if there is a just and fair god, with an important message for its creation, why is it hiding, why isn't it obvious, and why do we need blind faith?
-
More waffle and still no answer to my question. Do you have an answer or not?
As for the rest of it, where is your evidence that those who "find faith" are kinder etc.? There's an awful lot of evil done in the name of faith in the world.
You also keep on condemning people bearing false witness when you have been exposed as doing exactly that when you pretend to understand a deep science that can unite the forces of nature but are so ignorant of the subject that you don't know the difference between force and energy.
Now, once again: if there is a just and fair god, with an important message for its creation, why is it hiding, why isn't it obvious, and why do we need blind faith?
Your just going round and round in circles with me Stranger. I have answered all your question but you think it is clever to just dismiss it as rubbish. This is an important lesson to any who turn to Jesus because of the injustice in this world. These are the sort of responses you will be up against...but faith will sustain you because there is a knowledge, a truth, that passeth all understanding behind every single sentence of Jesus Christ that will deliver a huge spiritual warmth which will, ultimately, deliver all of Jesus Christ's promises and knowing his time will be short Satan is tooling up to make everyone's life a misery...have faith...we will overcome.
-
Your just going round and round in circles with me Stranger. I have answered all your question...
There you go bearing false witness again.
Where is the answer to my question as to why a just and fair god is hiding its important message?
-
There you go bearing false witness again.
Where is the answer to my question as to why a just and fair god is hiding its important message?
It is hidden in plain sight Strangeer...it is all in the Holy Bible. A book designed to change attitudes, improve our mental prowess, repair our health, show us the hidden workings behind resurrection and a promise, by faith, to expose a knowledge that will lead to everlasting life...after those who refuse to comply are evicted. That isn't waffle it is Biblical fact...you just need to alter your attitude a little to receive it but I'm afraid I think your problem is too deep seated.
-
It is hidden in plain sight Strangeer...it is all in the Holy Bible. A book designed to change attitudes, improve our mental prowess, repair our health, show us the hidden workings behind resurrection and a promise, by faith, to expose a knowledge that will lead to everlasting life...after those who refuse to comply are evicted. That isn't waffle it is Biblical fact...you just need to alter your attitude a little to receive it but I'm afraid I think your problem is too deep seated.
What 'hideen workings'?
Ah! A neo-Gnostic!
At last, things start to fit together, even if your theology does not.
-
It is hidden in plain sight Strangeer...
Are you having some difficulty understanding the question?
Why would a just and fair god with an important message not make it obvious to everybody? You seem to be describing a cruel trickster god who has set some sort of puzzle with drastic consequences if we get it wrong.
-
Are you having some difficulty understanding the question?
Why would a just and fair god with an important message not make it obvious to everybody? You seem to be describing a cruel trickster god who has set some sort of puzzle with drastic consequences if we get it wrong.
Your circular arguments mean nothing to me Stranger. You may think your good at this but you aren't half as circular in your thinking than those who thought they were entitled to chase honest, married women, expecting to find useful employment, but instead met up with a team of these hudlums who thought it was all a joke to drive people by hysterical tactics but, it is why I can safely say that our health is aligned with our attitudes and the antiChrist are responsible for it all...and will pay the price.
-
Your circular arguments mean nothing to me Stranger.
It wasn't even an argument, let alone a circular one, it was a question.
You may think your good at this but you aren't half as circular in your thinking than those who thought they were entitled to chase honest, married women, expecting to find useful employment, but instead met up with a team of these hudlums who thought it was all a joke to drive people by hysterical tactics but, it is why I can safely say that our health is aligned with our attitudes and the antiChrist are responsible for it all...and will pay the price.
No, I hevan't a clue what you're gibbering on about. Any chance at all of answering my question?
-
It wasn't even an argument, let alone a circular one, it was a question.
No, I hevan't a clue what you're gibbering on about. Any chance at all of answering my question?
Circular argument is what abusers use to overpower the good order of our emotions...bullies use it all the time...
It is going to upset many people when they realise that their honest attempts to lead a responsible, worthwhile life have been railroaded by people who have the single motive to disrupt honest reasoning. They are always hostile and aggressive and it is time to stand up to them using faith in Jesus Christ because he had to stand up to these people as well. Faith is the keyword because then we can go the distance with those who prefer to disrupt our faith.
-
Circular argument is what abusers use to overpower the good order of our emotions...bullies use it all the time...
It is going to upset many people when they realise that their honest attempts to lead a responsible, worthwhile life have been railroaded by people who have the single motive to disrupt honest reasoning. They are always hostile and aggressive and it is time to stand up to them using faith in Jesus Christ because he had to stand up to these people as well. Faith is the keyword because then we can go the distance with those who prefer to disrupt our faith.
More irrelevant waffle and still no answer to my question. Ho-hum.
Once again you seem to be condemning yourself - it is you who have been using circular arguments, this was a classic example:
We can have faith in Almighty God, because of Jesus Christ and we can have faith in Jesus Christ because of Almighty God.
-
More irrelevant waffle and still no answer to my question. Ho-hum.
Once again you seem to be condemning yourself - it is you who have been using circular arguments, this was a classic example:
That is a Biblical statement Stranger...Jesus Christ is the true witness of his father and Almighty God the true witness of Jesus Christ.
You see how I draw a line of logic between the bully and the cancer cell now, I'm sure...That both are refusing to be controlled by the genetic norm...both are wild and refusing to recognise the genetic code...both issue nervous short-sharp shock tactics on their surrounding neighbours...both scoop up all the nervous nourishment that should be shared amongst the group for their own individual benefit...both gather in tumorous lumps to plague the whole population that surrounds them and both stand a better chance in life if they listened, by faith, to what Jesus Christ has to say...and it is obvious to me that our attitude is the medium that can bring both to a sensible understanding.
-
Cancer; Just one more thing you know absolutely nothing about.
-
That is a Biblical statement Stranger...Jesus Christ is the true witness of his father and Almighty God the true witness of Jesus Christ.
So now you're saying the bible uses circular arguments...
You see how I draw a line of logic between the bully and the cancer cell now, I'm sure...That both are refusing to be controlled by the genetic norm...both are wild and refusing to recognise the genetic code...both issue nervous short-sharp shock tactics on their surrounding neighbours...both scoop up all the nervous nourishment that should be shared amongst the group for their own individual benefit...both gather in tumorous lumps to plague the whole population that surrounds them and both stand a better chance in life if they listened, by faith, to what Jesus Christ has to say...and it is obvious to me that our attitude is the medium that can bring both to a sensible understanding.
Back to the random gibberish.
Any chance of an answer as to why a just and fair god is hiding its important message? Or, for that matter, why we should believe circular arguments just because they're in the bible (according to you)?
-
So now you're saying the bible uses circular arguments...
Back to the random gibberish.
Any chance of an answer as to why a just and fair god is hiding its important message? Or, for that matter, why we should believe circular arguments just because they're in the bible (according to you)?
No...I'm saying you are using circular arguments and I have shown clearly that it causes all sorts of problems in our good health so that people will know where their poor health stems from...it is from our lack of faith in keeping our emotional balance right and that some people will do their up most to ensure we can't. This is where faith comes in because on behalf of our Saviour we can talk to people beyond the heckler and confirm what they suspect about the anti Christ.
-
No...I'm saying you are using circular arguments...
Except I'm not - do you even know what a circular argument is?
...and I have shown clearly...
I don't recall you ever showing anything clearly - oh, except that you know absolutely nothing about science, you have shown that very clearly.
...that it causes all sorts of problems in our good health so that people will know where their poor health stems from...it is from our lack of faith in keeping our emotional balance right and that some people will do their up most to ensure we can't. This is where faith comes in because on behalf of our Saviour we can talk to people beyond the heckler and confirm what they suspect about the anti Christ.
Still not answering my question...
-
Circular argument is what abusers use to overpower the good order of our emotions...bullies use it all the time...
It is going to upset many people when they realise that their honest attempts to lead a responsible, worthwhile life have been railroaded by people who have the single motive to disrupt honest reasoning. They are always hostile and aggressive and it is time to stand up to them using faith in Jesus Christ because he had to stand up to these people as well. Faith is the keyword because then we can go the distance with those who prefer to disrupt our faith.
It's all in your hands to stop the going around in circles Nick, all you need to do is give direct answers to the various questions you're being asked.
At the moment Nick, if I was to ask you what do you think of the weather now it has cooled down a bit?
Your answer would be something about this Jesus of yours all mixed in with something about super abundant electrical energy and the righteous sulphur smell of steam engines?
No wonder the going around in circles when all you ever do Nick, is stubbornly refuse to answer the questions asked of you?
It's not like answers you do give make any sense anyway?
Regards ippy
-
It's all in your hands to stop the going around in circles Nick, all you need to do is give direct answers to the various questions you're being asked.
At the moment Nick, if I was to ask you what do you think of the weather now it has cooled down a bit?
Your answer would be something about this Jesus of yours all mixed in with something about super abundant electrical energy and the righteous sulphur smell of steam engines?
No wonder the going around in circles when all you ever do Nick, is stubbornly refuse to answer the questions asked of you?
It's not like answers you do give make any sense anyway?
Regards ippy
That's the wonderful thing about faith in Jesus Christ...we expect to be taken to task by the antiChrist. I have given you all a more honest answer than you deserve but you have collectively decided to have a go. I had to face the same thing when I found myself within a factory full of exhausted women who were very unstable because of the heavy hand of unrighteous people, but I stuck it out and tried to help. It soon became obvious what was happening and I was thrilled to see God's hand at work soothing and calming the whole scene, with me as his humble assistant so I am well able to reach over your intimidation and tell those who might need this help...don't allow yourselves to be wound up...cling to faith in Jesus Christ and try to follow him accurately...ignore what iniquity tells you but talk with Jesus directly and you have begun a wonderful path that the antiChrist cannot prevent you from entering.
-
That's the wonderful thing about faith in Jesus Christ...we expect to be taken to task by the antiChrist. I have given you all a more honest answer than you deserve but you have collectively decided to have a go. I had to face the same thing when I found myself within a factory full of exhausted women who were very unstable because of the heavy hand of unrighteous people, but I stuck it out and tried to help. It soon became obvious what was happening and I was thrilled to see God's hand at work soothing and calming the whole scene, with me as his humble assistant so I am well able to reach over your intimidation and tell those who might need this help...don't allow yourselves to be wound up...cling to faith in Jesus Christ and try to follow him accurately...ignore what iniquity tells you but talk with Jesus directly and you have begun a wonderful path that the antiChrist cannot prevent you from entering.
Like I said Nick, it's you that's going around in circles this post of yours is yet another example of exactly how I described the irrelevant senseless nonsense you insist on posting.
It's you Nick, you're the one going around in circles stuck in the groove try having the basic good manners to give people relevant answers to the perfectly legitimate questions they're asking of you.
What a daft answer by the way Nick?
Regards ippy
-
Faith is a component part of believing in something or someone who has all the right answers to our most serious problems but which is beyond our intellect. If a person dies but is resurrected then we have a deep and wonderful introduction to a possibility for us all. That we can be resurrected by the same faith. It means having faith in an all knowing Deity but that Deity has made it abundantly clear that our faith is well spent if we attach ourselves to their righteous teaching. My faith has introduced a small portion of that knowledge to me and because that knowledge is indesputeable it means that my faith has been well spent.
Faith is believing something in the absence of evidence.
If you have evidence you do not need faith.
Faith cannot reliably lead you to the truth, so it should never be used.
-
Faith is believing something in the absence of evidence.
Is it?
-
Is it?
Yes, so don't ever use it. Simple.
I cannot reliably lead you to the truth, so if you care about truth never use faith.
-
Yes, so don't ever use it. Simple.
I cannot reliably lead you to the truth, so if you care about truth never use faith.
Faith is believing the teaching of someone when that teaching is outside our normal experience but has a good chance of being true...like in the face of a cruel and heartless world there is a force for good which is there for all who abide by the rules. If science had reached its end-point we could put our faith in it entirely, but it hasn't. Jesus Christ's teaching is needed and to get there we need righteousness and truth and faith in his teaching.
-
Faith is believing the teaching of someone when that teaching is outside our normal experience but has a good chance of being true...like in the face of a cruel and heartless world there is a force for good which is there for all who abide by the rules. If science had reached its end-point we could put our faith in it entirely, but it hasn't. Jesus Christ's teaching is needed and to get there we need righteousness and truth and faith in his teaching.
You can only assess it has a good chance if you have evidence. You never need faith.
Faith will not lead you reliably to truth.
You can believe anything by faith!
-
Faith is believing the teaching of someone when that teaching is outside our normal experience but has a good chance of being true...like in the face of a cruel and heartless world there is a force for good which is there for all who abide by the rules. If science had reached its end-point we could put our faith in it entirely, but it hasn't. Jesus Christ's teaching is needed and to get there we need righteousness and truth and faith in his teaching.
That's not the accurate, dynamic aeroplane trail truth, though.
Not according to that Bible you say you follow - accurately.
Try reading the definition of faith as recorded therein, without ruining it by misinterpretation, please.
-
That's not the accurate, dynamic aeroplane trail truth, though.
Not according to that Bible you say you follow - accurately.
Try reading the definition of faith as recorded therein, without ruining it by misinterpretation, please.
Faith grows and grows Anchorman according to the problems we face. One of the problems faced by today's population is that people are being wound-up by the hysterical behaviour of celebrities on the tele. Its all carnival stuff pretending to be for real...where responsibility is abandoned for the sake of a good joke...but we all have to pay the price for our frivolity because we waste the one property that can keep us healthy and this is our spiritual energy, that, by faith, can be harnessed for our health, strength and good-order, whilst those planning this play-time have more serious things in mind, that we won't thank them for.
-
Faith grows and grows Anchorman according to the problems we face. One of the problems faced by today's population is that people are being wound-up by the hysterical behaviour of celebrities on the tele.
I'm not: I avoid 'celebrity' stuff like I would avoid dysentery or folk music (which of these would be worse is debatable).
Its all carnival stuff pretending to be for real...where responsibility is abandoned for the sake of a good joke...but we all have to pay the price for our frivolity because we waste the one property that can keep us healthy and this is our spiritual energy, that, by faith, can be harnessed for our health, strength and good-order, whilst those planning this play-time have more serious things in mind, that we won't thank them for.
No it isn't: most of us can manage the balance between the frivolous and the serious perfectly adequately so as to suit our personal inclinations and circumstances.
As is often the case, Nick, your are generalising on the basis of your own assumptions and preferences.
-
Its all carnival stuff pretending to be for real
As long as you are intelligent enough to realise that then you wont have a problem.
For example the wind up merchants on youtube etc who pretend that there is a rogue planet currently in our solar system that only they can see Now that really is a wind up.
So if you believe those idiots then you really do have a problem!
-
Yes, so don't ever use it. Simple.
I cannot reliably lead you to the truth, so if you care about truth never use faith.
I think it's trusting something and that partly comes from the reliability and nature of whatever it is you are putting your trust in.
So your prescriptive tone is rejected by me on the grounds of it's arse clenching vomit inducing scientism and materialism.
-
I cannot reliably lead you to the truth, .
I think we've all noticed.
-
I think it's trusting something and that partly comes from the reliability and nature of whatever it is you are putting your trust in.
So, if someone was to trust the Christian Bible, and in particular the NT, how would they go about verifying the accuracy of the contents so as to justify their feeling that the Christian Bible was trustworthy?
-
I think it's trusting something and that partly comes from the reliability and nature of whatever it is you are putting your trust in.
So your prescriptive tone is rejected by me on the grounds of it's arse clenching vomit inducing scientism and materialism.
If something has proven to be reliable, like the sun is rising each day, then believe it. Faith is not required.
Never use faith, as it is not a reliable path to truth.
Do you agree that faith is not a reliable path to truth?
-
How would YOU explain Jesus to some hardened Muslim guy then?
Nick
-
If something has proven to be reliable, like the sun is rising each day, then believe it. Faith is not required.
Never use faith, as it is not a reliable path to truth.
Do you agree that faith is not a reliable path to truth?
If faith is as you deny, but I don't have to, trust in the reliability of something. Then trusting something that will lead into truth is the right way to go.
You typify scientism and materialism. Logic and reason is what you use in discussion once scientism and materialism are exhausted which sadly for you never happens.
-
If faith is as you deny, but I don't have to, trust in the reliability of something. Then trusting something that will lead into truth is the right way to go.
You typify scientism and materialism. Logic and reason is what you use in discussion once scientism and materialism are exhausted which sadly for you never happens.
I did not understand that at all.
Can you rephrase?
-
So, if someone was to trust the Christian Bible, and in particular the NT, how would they go about verifying the accuracy of the contents so as to justify their feeling that the Christian Bible was trustworthy?
The New Prescription is not a scientific text book and will not help those looking to it for prescription and bypassing the God who inspires it.
You seem to be focussing on it as a ''cause'' for what strikes me as a caricature Christianity and Christians.
That isn't Christianity so your guesses are as good as mine. In Christianity you put your trust in God who then or prior to that trust illuminates elements of the bible. The bible is more like a head up display than a monolithic thing.
If you are having a bad reaction to the New Testament then something is happening in your spiritual life IMV. Even I would say a feeling that it is there to stop people having a bit of fun.
[/quote]
-
I did not understand that at all.
Can you rephrase?
OK....Your definition of truth is based in materialism and scientism.
The faith part of that in your own interpretation of faith is your faith in scientism and materialism. Two philosophies which cannot be proved scientifically or materially.
All you are effectively saying therefore is your faith is the only one which leads to truth.
-
OK....Your definition of truth is based in materialism and scientism.
The faith part of that in your own interpretation of faith is your faith in scientism and materialism. Two philosophies which cannot be proved scientifically or materially.
All you are effectively saying therefore is your faith is the only one which leads to truth.
Not faith, I have no faith remember, I have trust in certain things depending on the supporting evidence.
You know that people believe conflicting things based on their personal faith?
Clearly, they cannot all be true! So faith is not a reliable path to truth.
Evidence, and reason is.
-
Not faith, I have no faith remember, I have trust in certain things depending on the supporting evidence.
You know that people believe conflicting things based on their personal faith?
certainly...…... you are arguing against faith from a faith position which has been spelt out to you. How conflicted is that?
-
certainly...…... you are arguing against faith from a faith position which has been spelt out to you. How conflicted is that?
I have no faith. I use reason and evidence not faith.
You can believe ANYTHING by faith. Do you accept that?
-
I have no faith. I use reason and evidence not faith.
Where is the evidence that your words are the truth?
-
Where is the evidence that your words are the truth?
One person believes in Jesus by faith.
One person believe in Thor by faith.
One person believes in ..... by faith.
Let' say they all believe mutually exclusive things. How can you tell if any of them believe something that is true.
Reason and evidence is the opposite of faith.
-
Doesn't having faith involve putting rationality to one side Vlad?
Regards ippy
-
Where is the evidence that your words are the truth?
Test them.
I say if you jump off a high build you will fall and die.
You could believe the opposite by faith if you like. But I suggest you do not try it
-
Doesn't having faith involve putting rationality to one side Vlad?
Regards ippy
Nope.
-
Nope.
Can you give an example of something you believe just on faith?
-
Jesus Christ Saves...is a sign seen outside many Christian establishments. Faith, is the key-word, here, and those who seek Jesus earnestly are seldom disappointed. There are forces at work that faith delivers into our own individual realm of being...and here, if I'm able, I would like to discuss Faith, instead the mechanics behind our faith.
I have stated my argument against Christianity on more occassions than most here wish to recount and it is this - that Christians fail totally to understand that their entire religion and all its beliefs and ramifications are based upon FAITH and not on FACT.
It has been stated on these boards so many times that it hardly bears repetition that there is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the divinity of the Galilean carpenter there is only the faith of his followers.
Until Christians are willing to acknoweledge this fact, their entire belief system is based upon the lie that it is anything more than faith!
-
Nope.
How about giving an example of faith, (religion based faith), showing its rational side?
Regards ippy
-
Test them.
I say if you jump off a high build you will fall and die.
You could believe the opposite by faith if you like. But I suggest you do not try it
Firstly It could be the headquarters of the Acme Matress disposal company.....next to it's store of matresses so I cannot agree that what you say is true.
Secondly I have more faith in the laws of nature that the likelihood of death by jumping than in God providing a miracle, circumventing his laws of the universe, which as we have seen, do not guarantee death from jumping anyway, just to make you look foolish.
And if someone did and died what of it. How does that help you.
If you still feel you have never exercised faith...how many motorway bridges have you been over lately?
-
How about giving an example of faith, (religion based faith), showing its rational side?
Regards ippy
Be rational believes he has no faith but repeatedly demonstrates he has. He then redefines 'faith' for a better fit.
We have faith and we have reason.
People like yourself, to me, confuse atheism with reason.
-
I have stated my argument against Christianity on more occassions than most here wish to recount and it is this - that Christians fail totally to understand that their entire religion and all its beliefs and ramifications are based upon FAITH and not on FACT.
So faith is lies and untruth, then?
Would you consider yourself a man of faith?
-
I have stated my argument against Christianity on more occassions than most here wish to recount and it is this - that Christians fail totally to understand that their entire religion and all its beliefs and ramifications are based upon FAITH and not on FACT.
Unfortunately Jesus is probably an historical figure.
Is faith totally ineffectual Owlswing? or not? You cannot have it both ways.
-
The New Prescription is not a scientific text book and will not help those looking to it for prescription and bypassing the God who inspires it.
You seem to be focussing on it as a ''cause'' for what strikes me as a caricature Christianity and Christians.
That isn't Christianity so your guesses are as good as mine. In Christianity you put your trust in God who then or prior to that trust illuminates elements of the bible. The bible is more like a head up display than a monolithic thing.
If you are having a bad reaction to the New Testament then something is happening in your spiritual life IMV. Even I would say a feeling that it is there to stop people having a bit of fun.
In other words you don't know how to verify the accuracy of the contents of the Christian Bible, and the NT in particular, so as to justify your feeling that the Christian Bible is trustworthy. Your position is, essentially, that it floats your boat: that may well be sufficient for you but it is clearly insufficient in respect of the specifics of what it claimed in the Christian Bible/NT being historically accurate.
-
In other words you don't know how to verify the accuracy of the contents of the Christian Bible, and the NT in particular, so as to justify your feeling that the Christian Bible is trustworthy. Your position is, essentially, that it floats your boat: that may well be sufficient for you but it is clearly insufficient in respect of the specifics of what it claimed in the Christian Bible/NT being historically accurate.
I do not see the New testament as you do Gordon and I have told you how I approach it and how it verifies itself to me I find it verified where it has provided guidance for me and the existence of the risen Christ is certainly verified to me.
On the other hand attempts to falsify the New testament seem most unsuccessful, boiling down to nothing more than incredulity and attempts to suggest that I wanted to believe are personally, way of the mark.
-
I do not see the New testament as you do Gordon and I have told you how I approach it and how it verifies itself to me I find it verified where it has provided guidance for me and the existence of the risen Christ is certainly verified to me.
Which was proven where, exactly?
-
Be rational believes he has no faith but repeatedly demonstrates he has. He then redefines 'faith' for a better fit.
We have faith and we have reason.
People like yourself, to me, confuse atheism with reason.
'We have faith and we have reason', how do you reconcile the two?
'People like yourself, to me, confuse atheism with reason'.
Strictly speaking I'm not an atheist, I'm just someone that sees no good evidential reason to take such irrational superstition based beliefs seriously, no confusion there.
Regards ippy
-
I do not see the New testament as you do Gordon and I have told you how I approach it and how it verifies itself to me I find it verified where it has provided guidance for me and the existence of the risen Christ is certainly verified to me.
Which is fine as a statement of personal faith - the question is, would your approach to verification work for me too? Hard to say since you've haven't explained how you went about it.
On the other hand attempts to falsify the New testament seem most unsuccessful, boiling down to nothing more than incredulity and attempts to suggest that I wanted to believe are personally, way of the mark.
Except that nobody, and certainly not me, is seeking to falsify the NT: I'm just asking you to justify how you verified it to your own satisfaction in order to see if the same process (or whatever it was) you employed would work for me too.
-
'We have faith and we have reason', how do you reconcile the two?
'People like yourself, to me, confuse atheism with reason'.
Strictly speaking I'm not an atheist, I'm just someone that sees no good evidential reason to take such irrational superstition based beliefs seriously, no confusion there.
Regards ippy
'We have faith and we have reason', how do you reconcile the two?
'People like yourself, to me, confuse atheism with reason'.
Strictly speaking I'm not an atheist, I'm just someone that sees no good evidential reason to take such irrational superstition based beliefs seriously, no confusion there.
Regards ippy
Firstly a definition which renders faith in opposition to reason is not a good one as I outlined to Be Rational.
Secondly, what do YOU mean by reason? Reason as logic should take no side in any dispute between materialism and any broader ontology. If it sides with materialism it ceases to be reason and becomes the very 'faith' you say it opposes....and that is what Be Rational does repeatedly.
-
Which is fine as a statement of personal faith - the question is, would your approach to verification work for me too? Hard to say since you've haven't explained how you went about it.
No it's a statement that rather than seeing it as some management manual, book of rules, or heaven forbid a formulaic science book as I suspect you are insisting it should be it is a mixture of things some mundane including a mystery only opened by the illumination of God. The only way I think I can help you on that is to tell you to explore anything that strikes you personally whether positively or negatively.
You say you aren't out to falsify it but already have by impuning it's reliability IMB.
-
Firstly a definition which renders faith in opposition to reason is not a good one as I outlined to Be Rational.
Secondly, what do YOU mean by reason? Reason as logic should take no side in any dispute between materialism and any broader ontology. If it sides with materialism it ceases to be reason and becomes the very 'faith' you say it opposes....and that is what Be Rational does repeatedly.
Reason as described in a dictionary: reason | Definition of reason in English by Oxford Dictionaries
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/reason
Definition of reason - a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event, the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements log.
I think that's the definition you're looking for Vlad.
Regards ippy
-
Reason as described in a dictionary: reason | Definition of reason in English by Oxford Dictionaries
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/reason
Definition of reason - a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event, the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements log.
Yes and?
if you have decided that a cause can only be material then that is materialism. Just as if you say that evidence can only be material.
If you then go on to say that only materialists can be reasoning you just compound the fact that there is no material evidence that materialism is correct.
Also you court the question what is the cause of material? To entertain this question must be reasonable although I think Dawkins wants thoughtful exploration of the cause of causes shut down...presumably on the grounds of unreasonability.
-
Firstly It could be the headquarters of the Acme Matress disposal company.....next to it's store of matresses so I cannot agree that what you say is true.
Secondly I have more faith in the laws of nature that the likelihood of death by jumping than in God providing a miracle, circumventing his laws of the universe, which as we have seen, do not guarantee death from jumping anyway, just to make you look foolish.
And if someone did and died what of it. How does that help you.
If you still feel you have never exercised faith...how many motorway bridges have you been over lately?
Lots, but no faith required. I understand they are designed and tested, and have a chance of failure.
-
Lots, but no faith required. I understand they are designed and tested, and have a chance of failure.
If there is risk of failure, why are you prepared to use them?
I have faith that they are tested and in who tested them......and so do you. Can you tell me what bridges have been tested and when. If there is any part of that process that you are leaving to chance then you are showing faith.
-
If there is risk of failure, why are you prepared to use them?
I have faith that they are tested and in who tested them......and so do you. Can you tell me what bridges have been tested and when. If there is any part of that process that you are leaving to chance then you are showing faith.
Because nothing is certain, and the level of risk is known. That is the reality we live in.
-
Because nothing is certain, and the level of risk is known. That is the reality we live in.
So you admit to making decisions or taking lines of thought based sometimes of having no actual evidence.
you have filled you're own criterion for having faith.
-
So you admit to making decisions or taking lines of thought based sometimes of having no actual evidence.
you have filled you're own criterion for having faith.
No why would you think that?
I have evidence that bridges are designed and tested ( I even know an engineer that does this).
I know that no system is perfect, so there will be an element of risk, and I judge the risk to be small.
No faith is required.
You can believe ANYTHING by faith, so by definition this cannot be a reliable path to truth.
Do you care if your beliefs are true?
If so, you must NEVER use faith.
-
No why would you think that?
I have evidence that bridges are designed and tested ( I even know an engineer that does this).
I know that no system is perfect, so there will be an element of risk, and I judge the risk to be small.
No faith is required.
You can believe ANYTHING by faith, so by definition this cannot be a reliable path to truth.
Do you care if your beliefs are true?
If so, you must NEVER use faith.
Faith is unavoidable if you are defining faith as the opposite of knowledge.
-
You can believe ANYTHING by faith,
An individual cannot believe anything since belief is exclusive.
-
An individual cannot believe anything since belief is exclusive.
What does that mean.
People can and do believe all sorts of things just on faith.
Do you accept that faith is not a reliable path to truth?
Do you care if your beliefs are true?
-
What does that mean.
People can and do believe all sorts of things just on faith.
Including Materialism and scientism.
-
Do you accept that faith is not a reliable path to truth?
1: You seem to have faith that there have to be paths to truth.
2: You seem to be saying that the truth cannot come to you. That seems like a faith position.
-
No it's a statement that rather than seeing it as some management manual, book of rules, or heaven forbid a formulaic science book as I suspect you are insisting it should be it is a mixture of things some mundane including a mystery only opened by the illumination of God. The only way I think I can help you on that is to tell you to explore anything that strikes you personally whether positively or negatively.
I'm not insisting anything. I'm asking how you feel justified in accepting the Bible/NT as being truthful: your reply seems to be, in essence, that it feels that way to you.
You say you aren't out to falsify it but already have by impuning it's reliability IMB.
Me asking you how you've verified the Bible/NT isn't me falsifying anything. I'm simply asking you how you've verified it, such as by assessing the risks of mistakes, exaggeration and lies, and that seems like a reasonable question to ask of someone who clearly feels that the Bible/NT passes verification.
-
1: You seem to have faith that there have to be paths to truth.
2: You seem to be saying that the truth cannot come to you. That seems like a faith position.
I have no faith of any kind.
You seem to jumble up words a lot and never make a clear point.
Do you think using faith alone is reliable way to find truths about the world we live in? YES or NO.
Please do not do word salad.
-
I have no faith of any kind.
You just keep right on believing that.
-
I'm not insisting anything. I'm asking how you feel justified in accepting the Bible/NT as being truthful: your reply seems to be, in essence, that it feels that way to you.
Me asking you how you've verified the Bible/NT isn't me falsifying anything. I'm simply asking you how you've verified it, such as by assessing the risks of mistakes, exaggeration and lies, and that seems like a reasonable question to ask of someone who clearly feels that the Bible/NT passes verification.
I think I've stated that the NT has closely matched my experience and whereas prior to the bible becoming illuminated to me I didn't understand it but increasingly identified with it's message of Christ and the experience of those in it.
In other words it is authoritative in it's subject matter but is also unlike any other book i've come across.
-
I think I've stated that the NT has closely matched my experience and whereas prior to the bible becoming illuminated to me I didn't understand it but increasingly identified with it's message of Christ and the experience of those in it.
So how do I verify your experience?
In other words it is authoritative in it's subject matter but is also unlike any other book i've come across.
That sounds awfully like you are conflating authority and personal opinion.
-
Yes and?
if you have decided that a cause can only be material then that is materialism. Just as if you say that evidence can only be material.
If you then go on to say that only materialists can be reasoning you just compound the fact that there is no material evidence that materialism is correct.
Also you court the question what is the cause of material? To entertain this question must be reasonable although I think Dawkins wants thoughtful exploration of the cause of causes shut down...presumably on the grounds of unreasonability.
You're doing the materialism bit, all I do is go by evidence I'm not that easily impressed by conjecture.
I note like all religionists they all find the cupboard's bare when it comes to having access to reliable supporting evidence, we can all conjure up anything mythical we like such as Leprechauns, Unicorns or anything else you might like to think of but all of that doesn't make these ideas any more realistic or acceptable.
I accept I'm addressing my incredulity about religion when I say this but all of these various religions spill out their words about some god or another and it seems to me about trying to convince themselves about something so obviously man made.
Regards ippy
-
You just keep right on believing that.
Do you care if your beliefs are true?
-
You're doing the materialism bit, all I do is go by evidence I'm not that easily impressed by conjecture.
I note like all religionists they all find the cupboard's bare when it comes to having access to reliable supporting evidence, we can all conjure up anything mythical we like such as Leprechauns, Unicorns or anything else you might like to think of but all of that doesn't make these ideas any more realistic or acceptable.
I accept I'm addressing my incredulity about religion when I say this but all of these various religions spill out their words about some god or another and it seems to me about trying to convince themselves about something so obviously man made.
Regards ippy
I don't know about all religionists but Christians see the New testament as a historical document and would dispute the view that it isn't evidence of a Jesus who made certain claims and how these were backed up.
-
Do you care if your beliefs are true?
What evidence do you have that I don't?
-
I don't know about all religionists but Christians see the New restaurant as a historical document and would dispute the view that it isn't evidence of a Jesus who made certain claims and how these were backed up.
No case so we go into semantics, I hear the written records about the Jesus you speak of were layed down some 100 years after he died, (the first time).
Regards ippy
-
No case so we go into semantics, I hear the written records about the Jesus you speak of were layed down some 100 years after he died, (the first time).
Regards ippy
Firstly, If it were 100 years that is considerably earlier than anything to say Jesus was not historical or contrary to the biblical accounts which i'm sure you have no problem believing.
Secondly the new testament includes the epistles the earliest which date from about 2 decades from the event. I am sure you have no trouble believing accounts or memoir of people recalling the events of 1998. The epistle also logs the established beliefs of communities so what the epistles talk about is the belief of established belief communities and these are reflected in later Gospels.
-
What evidence do you have that I don't?
You use faith.
Faith is not a pathway to truth.
I ask again, do you care if your beliefs are true?
-
Firstly, If it were 100 years that is considerably earlier than anything to say Jesus was not historical or contrary to the biblical accounts which i'm sure you have no problem believing.
Secondly the new testament includes the epistles the earliest which date from about 2 decades from the event. I am sure you have no trouble believing accounts or memoir of people recalling the events of 1998. The epistle also logs the established beliefs of communities so what the epistles talk about is the belief of established belief communities and these are reflected in later Gospels.
So you think if ippy read on the Net tomorrow that a gang of Palestinian fishermen have been telling stories about one of their number walking on water, curing blind people and then in 1998 dying but coming back to life two days later, he'd believe it?
Obviously you would, but I doubt if ippy would!
-
So you think if ippy read on the Net tomorrow that a gang of Palestinian fishermen have been telling stories about one of their number walking on water, curing blind people and then in 1998 dying but coming back to life two days later, he'd believe it?
Obviously you would, but I doubt if ippy would!
Would he believe it if it were supposed to have happened yesterday? I mean I agree that having reports of miracles, written by unknown authors has added problems if those reports are written years after any such claims but the prime issue is the claims themselves.
-
Gordon/NearlySane/BeRational/ippy/jjohnjil/The poster formerly known as....
Faith is a wonderful thing...it means, here, beliveing in a wonderful source of truth that has captured the hearts and minds of millions over many generations...It has forced tyrants to embrace its teaching and is the sole source of iniquity which hides within that faith falsifying it. In the terms of a science Faith in Jesus has repeated itself over and over and the reason is that it embraces truth to a right minded person who can live by that faith, be guided by that faith, and see the future promises of that faith to be hugely beneficial to those who practice that faith...it contains a truth that passeth all understanding and by our faith we get glimpses of that truth. The most important truth is resurrection not just for Jesus but for us all if, by faith, we follow that truth...and this shows us that the entire universe obeys laws where that faith is fact...but first we have to endure God's Judgement and our faith will make it a worthwhile experience because of the many natural functions of that Judgement that include this world being seriously disturbed in a way not seen since its inception...and, for those with no faith, worse.
-
Gordon/NearlySane/BeRational/ippy/jjohnjil/The poster formerly known as....
Faith is a wonderful thing...it means, here, beliveing in a wonderful source of truth that has captured the hearts and minds of millions over many generations...It has forced tyrants to embrace its teaching and is the sole source of iniquity which hides within that faith falsifying it. In the terms of a science Faith in Jesus has repeated itself over and over and the reason is that it embraces truth to a right minded person who can live by that faith, be guided by that faith, and see the future promises of that faith to be hugely beneficial to those who practice that faith...it contains a truth that passeth all understanding and by our faith we get glimpses of that truth. The most important truth is resurrection not just for Jesus but for us all if, by faith, we follow that truth...and this shows us that the entire universe obeys laws where that faith is fact...but first we have to endure God's Judgement and our faith will make it a worthwhile experience because of the many natural functions of that Judgement that include this world being seriously disturbed in a way not seen since its inception...and, for those with no faith, worse.
Faith cannot reliably take you to truth, so why is it good?
-
Firstly, If it were 100 years that is considerably earlier than anything to say Jesus was not historical or contrary to the biblical accounts which i'm sure you have no problem believing.
Secondly the new testament includes the epistles the earliest which date from about 2 decades from the event. I am sure you have no trouble believing accounts or memoir of people recalling the events of 1998. The epistle also logs the established beliefs of communities so what the epistles talk about is the belief of established belief communities and these are reflected in later Gospels.
As has been established there was more than likely a chap such as the Jesus around at that time, the Mr Magic man in the sky stuff added on that's just so typical of the myth making, story telling of that time, so typical of the myth making in those days it's hardly worthy of any kind of serious consideration.
It's highly likely this Jesus bloke was a bronze age equivalent of a modern day Nelson Mandela like hero, and nothing more than that, things like coming back from the dead, feeding the 5000 etc they don't happen.
Regards ippy
-
As has been established there was more than likely a chap such as the Jesus around at that time, the Mr Magic man in the sky stuff added on that's just so typical of the myth making, story telling of that time, so typical of the myth making in those days it's hardly worthy of any kind of serious consideration.
It's highly likely this Jesus bloke was a bronze age equivalent of a modern day Nelson Mandela like hero, and nothing more than that, things like coming back from the dead, feeding the 5000 etc they don't happen.
Regards ippy
Applying probabilities to supernatural claims in the absence of any methodology to evaluate such claims is specious. Not that that gives any help to Vlad's claims.
-
Gordon/NearlySane/BeRational/ippy/jjohnjil/The poster formerly known as....
Faith is a wonderful thing...
Nick, given that my post wasn't directed to you, and you make no reference to it in your reply either directly or indirectly, I don't see any point in including me in your first line here .
-
Faith cannot reliably take you to truth, so why is it good?
Without faith in Jesus Christ we leave ourselves exposed to another truth...That nasty minded people will gang-up behind our backs and orchestrate their own reasoning in a harmful way...without us having any defence against them...except, of course, the faith we have in Jesus Christ...and I may have mentioned it once or twice...that solid faith in Jesus Christ means we are living a science that passeth all understanding, BeRational...one of its arms being to discredit, besmirch and try to nullify the existence of Jesus Christ. I call this the antiChrist who aren't beyond the odd lie or two.
-
Nick, given that my post wasn't directed to you, and you make no reference to it in your reply either directly or indirectly, I don't see any point in including me in your first line here .
I may be mistaken, Nearly Sane, but I thought a public forum means that we can talk to everyone freely and involve those who enter into the theme of the post with their ideas on the subject...even if you would prefer they didn't...as long as we retain a measure of responsibility, which I always try to do.
.
-
Gordon/NearlySane/BeRational/ippy/jjohnjil/The poster formerly known as....
Faith is a wonderful thing...it means, here, beliveing in a wonderful source of truth that has captured the hearts and minds of millions over many generations...It has forced tyrants to embrace its teaching and is the sole source of iniquity which hides within that faith falsifying it. In the terms of a science Faith in Jesus has repeated itself over and over and the reason is that it embraces truth to a right minded person who can live by that faith, be guided by that faith, and see the future promises of that faith to be hugely beneficial to those who practice that faith...it contains a truth that passeth all understanding and by our faith we get glimpses of that truth. The most important truth is resurrection not just for Jesus but for us all if, by faith, we follow that truth...and this shows us that the entire universe obeys laws where that faith is fact...but first we have to endure God's Judgement and our faith will make it a worthwhile experience because of the many natural functions of that Judgement that include this world being seriously disturbed in a way not seen since its inception...and, for those with no faith, worse.
Sparky, you still haven't explained why such a powerful personage as God should care whether people believe in him or not. If he really cared, it would have been simple to provide good evidence that ensured every human he created would be convinced.
Instead he sends his son to preach in a backwater part of the world - at a time when communications were almost impossible - for only three short years ... and expects everyone to take his word for it!
If I were God, the least of my worries would be whether humankind - of all the creatures I had created - believed in me ... but if it did worry me, I'd make certain of it.
Or do you think he's incapable of that?
-
Would he believe it if it were supposed to have happened yesterday? I mean I agree that having reports of miracles, written by unknown authors has added problems if those reports are written years after any such claims but the prime issue is the claims themselves.
I don't know what it would take to convince me about these presumed by many to be actual biblical happenings, sure as anything I would have to accept irrefutable proof now what that proof would have to consist of I've no idea and I very much doubt I will be giving up on my view that the religious stuff, all of it, it's man made it seems so obvious to me.
Regards ippy
-
Would he believe it if it were supposed to have happened yesterday? I mean I agree that having reports of miracles, written by unknown authors has added problems if those reports are written years after any such claims but the prime issue is the claims themselves.
NS
Vlad seems to think anything written only 20 years ago should be believed. That was his point.
-
As has been established there was more than likely a chap such as the Jesus around at that time, the Mr Magic man in the sky stuff added on that's just so typical of the myth making, story telling of that time, so typical of the myth making in those days it's hardly worthy of any kind of serious consideration.
It's highly likely this Jesus bloke was a bronze age equivalent of a modern day Nelson Mandela like hero, and nothing more than that, things like coming back from the dead, feeding the 5000 etc they don't happen.
Regards ippy
Wrong again ippy...Jesus Christ taught us about faith in a much higher authority...Almighty God, no less...The owner of the universe...and if we read his word instead of thinking out loud about what we think, we would find that Jesus is the son of God...teaching us God's 'word'...a word that has appealed to millions...You see, whilst the earlier antiChrist were cutting up God's domain, stealing its resources and otherwise turning this planet into a dung-heap...people were being injured and turning to Jesus because he offered them the only way out...Just as he is doing today....Like it or lump it.
-
NS
Vlad seems to think anything written only 20 years ago should be believed. That was his point.
And it was ippy that raised the issue of the length of time as being relevant, I just don't see it as an interesting discussion, as I don't think that ippy, you, or I doubt claims of rising from the dead as less believable because of time.
-
I don't know what it would take to convince me about these presumed by many to be actual biblical happenings, sure as anything I would have to accept irrefutable proof now what that proof would have to consist of I've no idea and I very much doubt I will be giving up on my view that the religious stuff, all of it, it's man made it seems so obvious to me.
Regards ippy
It's not your problem to define a methodology that would allow supernatural claims to be evaluated, that's for those that claim they happen. But probability arises from naturalistic methods, and using it to refer to supernatural claims makes no sense.
-
Applying probabilities to supernatural claims in the absence of any methodology to evaluate such claims is specious. Not that that gives any help to Vlad's claims.
Makes more sense than anything Vlad comes out with and that's it, it is a probability nothing more than that, therefore the preceding, 'it's highly likely'.
There you are N S something else for you to needlessly pick holes in, enjoy.
Regards ippy
-
I may be mistaken, Nearly Sane, but I thought a public forum means that we can talk to everyone freely and involve those who enter into the theme of the post with their ideas on the subject...even if you would prefer they didn't...as long as we retain a measure of responsibility, which I always try to do.
.
You can, indeed, but as pointed out my post was about a specific point someone had made and your posts on no way addressed that. It just seems to me a complete waste of time for you to write out themself people you are not replying to, and then needing those named to read in detail through a pis t that is in no sense a reply to anything they wrote.
-
Sparky, you still haven't explained why such a powerful personage as God should care whether people believe in him or not. If he really cared, it would have been simple to provide good evidence that ensured every human he created would be convinced.
Instead he sends his son to preach in a backwater part of the world - at a time when communications were almost impossible - for only three short years ... and expects everyone to take his word for it!
If I were God, the least of my worries would be whether humankind - of all the creatures I had created - believed in me ... but if it did worry me, I'd make certain of it.
Or do you think he's incapable of that?
The difference between you and God jjohnjil is that you don't have the knowledge that passeth all understanding. It has been 2000 years now since Jesus endured his pain and suffering and generally speaking, few are paying a blind bit of notice which means that this global danger foreseen in the Holy Bible will come and go leaving only those who paid heed to God's message...then...exactly as you perceive...God will be left with an entire world full of followers and believers who worship his name. Though the antiChrist will bend a little when forced to they always turn back to evil and I'm afraid the past 2000 years has shown us this.
-
Makes more sense than anything Vlad comes out with and that's it, it is a probability nothing more than that, therefore the preceding, 'it's highly likely'.
There you are N S something else for you to needlessly pick holes in, enjoy.
Regards ippy
If you don't think accurately reflecting what probability is in your posts worthwhile, then you are both being unclear and wrong.
-
You can, indeed, but as pointed out my post was about a specific point someone had made and your posts on no way addressed that. It just seems to me a complete waste of time for you to write out themself people you are not replying to, and then needing those named to read in detail through a pis t that is in no sense a reply to anything they wrote.
I know it is all circular argument NS...but if someone starts a topic as I have done here...then anyone who responds to it is responding to that topic including the person who started it...otherwise you are saying that a topic is entitled to be hi-jacked and given to others who prefer to sidetrack that topic and the Jesus Christ, Our Saviour, topic is far too important for that.
-
If you don't think accurately reflecting what probability is in your posts worthwhile, then you are both being unclear and wrong.
I see unless it's a multi page thesis it'll never be clear enough for you, any reasonable person, there are some, would be able to get the gist of my posts on this subject, but of course there's always one.
Regards ippy
-
I see unless it's a multi page thesis it'll never be clear enough for you, any reasonable person, there are some, would be able to get the gist of my posts on this subject, but of course there's always one.
Regards ippy
Size doesn't matter, accuracy does.
-
I know it is all circular argument NS...but if someone starts a topic as I have done here...then anyone who responds to it is responding to that topic including the person who started it...otherwise you are saying that a topic is entitled to be hi-jacked and given to others who prefer to sidetrack that topic and the Jesus Christ, Our Saviour, topic is far too important for that.
No, a thread can have multiple points, and different arguments in it. Again I have no problem if you want to reply to specific points but given your reply had nothing to do with that part of the discussion, it's just inaccurate to portray it as if it paid any heed to my post.
-
Size doesn't matter, accuracy does.
You seem to be a reasonably intelligent person N S, this pedant side of you seems to take you over at times, why don't you give it a rest, today would be good day for a start.
Regards ippy
-
You seem to be a reasonably intelligent person N S, this pedant side of you seems to take you over at times, why don't you give it a rest, today would be good day for a start.
Regards ippy
Ad hominem fallacy rides again.
-
No, a thread can have multiple points, and different arguments in it. Again I have no problem if you want to reply to specific points but given your reply had nothing to do with that part of the discussion, it's just inaccurate to portray it as if it paid any heed to my post.
I don't go round and round in circles with any one NS. You were mentioned because you were on the list of previous responders since my last posting. You may think this is unnecessary but I don't like to leave anyone out. Sorry if this caused offence, but I often do, it seems, without really trying....Still, faith in Jesus Christ, heals all wounds...and I feel his energy at work all ready...It's a pity it is so hard to convey that faith to others.
-
I don't go round and round in circles with any one NS. You were mentioned because you were on the list of previous responders since my last posting. You may think this is unnecessary but I don't like to leave anyone out. Sorry if this caused offence, but I often do, it seems, without really trying....Still, faith in Jesus Christ, heals all wounds...and I feel his energy at work all ready...It's a pity it is so hard to convey that faith to others.
It's not causing offence, it's just pointless to portray your posts as replies to something that you aren't making any effort to reply to.
-
Ad hominem fallacy rides again.
Why this need of yours to be a smart arse all of the time?
Regards ippy
-
Why this need of yours to be a smart arse all of the time?
Regards ippy
Is there any chance you might address the arguments?
-
Is there any chance you might address the arguments?
Well yes but perhaps not about the needlessly silly, petty stuff, I shall now look forward to receiving your next, no doubt, smart arse response.
Regards ippy
-
Without faith in Jesus Christ we leave ourselves exposed to another truth...That nasty minded people will gang-up behind our backs and orchestrate their own reasoning in a harmful way...without us having any defence against them...except, of course, the faith we have in Jesus Christ...and I may have mentioned it once or twice...that solid faith in Jesus Christ means we are living a science that passeth all understanding, BeRational...one of its arms being to discredit, besmirch and try to nullify the existence of Jesus Christ. I call this the antiChrist who aren't beyond the odd lie or two.
But faith cannot tell you anything about Jesus.
You can use faith to believe anything.
Do you care if your beliefs are true, or do you just like your beliefs to make you happy?
-
Well yes but perhaps not about the needlessly silly, petty stuff, I shall now look forward to receiving your next, no doubt, smart arse response.
Regards ippy
I simply suggest that talking accurately about claims and how to assess them is important. It helps if you examine things logically.
-
I simply suggest that talking accurately about claims and how to assess them is important. It helps if you examine things logically.
We use differing ways of expressing ourselves I intend to carry on making my perhaps basic use of English, if my English isn't precise enough for you N S, tough, you may be looking for something like the Booker prize for literature I don't know, well that's fine with me, I'm not looking for any such thing now nor am I ever likely to be.
Regards ippy
-
We use differing ways of expressing ourselves I intend to carry on making my perhaps basic use of English, if my English isn't precise enough for you N S, tough, you may be looking for something like the Booker prize for literature I don't know, well that's fine with me, I'm not looking for any such thing now nor am I ever likely to be.
Regards ippy
It has nothing to do with your use of English, rather your misuse of logic.
-
It has nothing to do with your use of English, rather your misuse of logic.
You continually misread me due, I think, to your set on rails way of using English.
Regards ippy
-
You continually misread me due, I think, to your set on rails way of using English.
Regards ippy
Then if you think I am misreading you, explain why. Simply reacting by saying I want long posts is incorrect and isn't enlightening.
As regards the point raised in this case, in what way am I misreading you if I suggest that using the term probability is inappropriate as regards supernatural claims, since we have no way to establish anything about probability for such claims?
-
Sparky, you still haven't explained why such a powerful personage as God should care whether people believe in him or not. If he really cared, it would have been simple to provide good evidence that ensured every human he created would be convinced.
Instead he sends his son to preach in a backwater part of the world - at a time when communications were almost impossible - for only three short years ... and expects everyone to take his word for it!
If I were God, the least of my worries would be whether humankind - of all the creatures I had created - believed in me ... but if it did worry me, I'd make certain of it.
Or do you think he's incapable of that?
Then again outside your 'wonderful' words you might be goddodging.
You are obviously excluding people who believe in god from your 'analysis' of what god must be like. So you have dodged already.
As a Christian convert I can attest to goddodging, know others who goddodged.
Famous, if unsuccessful Goddodgers include Augustine and Bunyan who at times desperately wished after encountering God that there had been any revelation other than Jesus.
-
Then if you think I am misreading you, explain why. Simply reacting by saying I want long posts is incorrect and isn't enlightening.
As regards the point raised in this case, in what way am I misreading you if I suggest that using the term probability is inappropriate as regards supernatural claims, since we have no way to establish anything about probability for such claims?
It's a probability you will continue to think I'm not using your terms, as usual, and you would be right.
Regards ippy
-
It's a probability you will continue to think I'm not using your terms, as usual, and you would be right.
Regards ippy
No, it's nothing to do with my terms, it's just about logic.
-
Then again outside your 'wonderful' words you might be goddodging.
You are obviously excluding people who believe in god from your 'analysis' of what god must be like. So you have dodged already.
As a Christian convert I can attest to goddodging, know others who goddodged.
Famous, if unsuccessful Goddodgers include Augustine and Bunyan who at times desperately wished after encountering God that there had been any revelation other than Jesus.
In other words, you can't explain it, Thanks anyway.
-
What I have decided...because It's my decision to make...is just wait for the great tribulations to bite. You may then see the truth of what I have been saying and if it occurs to you all to change your ways you will know it is the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ alone that can save you. You see, it is an electric/spiritual universe and righteous laws are the laws of a righteous God which are fully endorsed by his son, which will be the laws of the new heavens and the new Earth that will follow, and it is our only hope. No other group of lost people, antiChrist or iniquity, will view things differently from you until the great tribulations bite, but, for many, that will be too late.
-
What I have decided...because It's my decision to make...is just wait for the great tribulations to bite. You may then see the truth of what I have been saying and if it occurs to you all to change your ways you will know it is the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ alone that can save you. You see, it is an electric/spiritual universe and righteous laws are the laws of a righteous God which are fully endorsed by his son, which will be the laws of the new heavens and the new Earth that will follow, and it is our only hope. No other group of lost people, antiChrist or iniquity, will view things differently from you until the great tribulations bite, but, for many, that will be too late.
You do that.
-
You do that.
When you think about it righteously, it seems that Almighty God and Jesus Christ, plus the four living beasts with six wings and many eyes, and the 144,000 in Heaven, have all come to the same decision as well...but for any trying to tune-in to righteousness, the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ will work for you too. It's all a question of faith, the Holy Bible, Truth, and, of course, Jesus Christ.
-
What I have decided...because It's my decision to make...is just wait for the great tribulations to bite. You may then see the truth of what I have been saying and if it occurs to you all to change your ways you will know it is the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ alone that can save you. You see, it is an electric/spiritual universe and righteous laws are the laws of a righteous God which are fully endorsed by his son, which will be the laws of the new heavens and the new Earth that will follow, and it is our only hope. No other group of lost people, antiChrist or iniquity, will view things differently from you until the great tribulations bite, but, for many, that will be too late.
How is your waiting going to manifest itself?
-
How is your waiting going to manifest itself?
Simple really Maeght...My brief was only to deliver two gifts from Almighty God to those who haven't listened to Jesus Christ, and I have done that. Within my teaching are these two gifts...They are the cure of the most serious illnesses that plague the world today and I have completed my task. So I simply have to wait for the new heavens and a new Earth to righteously enjoy for all eternity.
-
Simple really Maeght...My brief was only to deliver two gifts from Almighty God to those who haven't listened to Jesus Christ, and I have done that. Within my teaching are these two gifts...They are the cure of the most serious illnesses that plague the world today and I have completed my task. So I simply have to wait for the new heavens and a new Earth to righteously enjoy for all eternity.
Which isn't an answer to my question.
-
No, it's nothing to do with my terms, it's just about logic.
O K, N S, have a good day
Regards ippy
-
O K, N S, have a good day
Regards ippy
And to you and yours.
-
When you think about it righteously, it seems that Almighty God and Jesus Christ, plus the four living beasts with six wings and many eyes, and the 144,000 in Heaven, have all come to the same decision as well...but for any trying to tune-in to righteousness, the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ will work for you too. It's all a question of faith, the Holy Bible, Truth, and, of course, Jesus Christ.
Hi there Nick, this post of yours is all very well but right up until now you still haven't come up with anything that would prove your bible to be anything more than a work of fiction especially the magical, mystical and superstition based parts of it.
I know you believe it to be a book of facts but not just you, no one else has managed to back up their religious beliefs with viable evidence right up to this day.
Asserting doesn't make the assertional statement true, no matter how much of an authoritative way the assertion's made.
It's also plainly wrong and questionable to make any kind of feeble attempt at cheating by saying the bible proves the bible.
Regards Nick, ippy.
-
So faith is lies and untruth, then?
Would you consider yourself a man of faith?
Of course not!
It is faith because there is nothing to show that it is either lie or truth - it is impossible of proof in either direction.
The lies are on the part of Christians in their inability to see that there is no proof that what they believe is true.
Yes, I am a man of faith, I have faith that what I believe in is what is - but I do NOT demand, as does Christianinty, that believers in Christianty cease to have faith in what they believe to be truth and to believe that what I believe is true instead, but without an iota of proof by me that it is so.
-
I note you've run off again Nick, where are you?
See if you can answer somebody without all of the usual drivel, you know that drivel you come out with that has zero to do with whatever anyone asks you.
Time to come out of hiding Nick.
Regards ippy.