Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Sriram on August 17, 2018, 05:22:38 PM
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Hi everyone,
Here is a CNN article about anti-semitism in the UK. Is it true..do you think?!
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/17/uk/uk-anti-semitism-intl/index.html
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Mark Lewis, a famed libel and privacy lawyer, is leaving Britain. Worn down by years of anti-Semitic abuse and death threats, he has decided enough is enough.
The 53-year-old plans to begin a new life in Israel with his partner, Mandy Blumenthal, by year's end. Both were born and raised in England. Both are very ready to leave.
"I just want to get out of here. It's a massive thing to do but I've actually had enough," Lewis said. "People might dislike me in Israel because of my political views, might think I'm too right-wing or left-wing or whatever, but they are not going to dislike me for being Jewish."
Two people have previously been imprisoned for threatening to murder him for being Jewish, Lewis said. Now, he said, he's reached the stage where he's "almost being desensitized to the threats" -- from both right and left -- such is their regularity.
The couple's decision comes as accusations of anti-Semitism dog Britain's main opposition Labour Party and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn. At the same time, incidents of recorded anti-Semitism are near record levels.
Some British Jews who have the financial means have started to consider buying property in Israel, Falter said, even if they aren't planning an imminent move. Of course, not all can afford to relocate even if they want to.
"It's a very sad state of affairs because we have all grown up here and for most us this is where our grandparents found refuge during the darkest days of humanity," said Falter.
The seeds of the crisis lie in Jeremy Corbyn's election as Labour leader in 2015.
"I don't know how many people are actively thinking on those terms of leaving the country but certainly a lot of Jewish people are worrying about what the future might hold," Dave Rich, head of policy for the CST, told CNN.
Although it's hard to quantify, the publicity around anti-Semitism may have led both to more incidents occurring and to more being reported, he said.
"There is just general concern across the Jewish community at the moment about anti-Semitism, about the fact that it seems to be part of mainstream politics and mainstream life in a way that it never used to be."
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Cheers.
Sriram
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Complex question, so don't have time to answer. It's not a true/not true dichotomy. Will reply when I have time to do it justice.
Note some of the issues are related to the discussion here
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=15962.0
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I have Jewish friends who agree with etc sentiment expressed. They live in a predominantly Jewish part of London and have seen a big increase in hate crime. Three of their kids have moved to Israel.
I don't get it. I don't think about someone's Jewishness any more than I think about whether they come from Barnsley or like tuna sandwiches. Antisemitism completely baffles me.
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Hi everyone,
Here is a CNN article about anti-semitism in the UK. Is it true..do you think?!
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/17/uk/uk-anti-semitism-intl/index.html
**************
Mark Lewis, a famed libel and privacy lawyer, is leaving Britain. Worn down by years of anti-Semitic abuse and death threats, he has decided enough is enough.
The 53-year-old plans to begin a new life in Israel with his partner, Mandy Blumenthal, by year's end. Both were born and raised in England. Both are very ready to leave.
"I just want to get out of here. It's a massive thing to do but I've actually had enough," Lewis said. "People might dislike me in Israel because of my political views, might think I'm too right-wing or left-wing or whatever, but they are not going to dislike me for being Jewish."
Two people have previously been imprisoned for threatening to murder him for being Jewish, Lewis said. Now, he said, he's reached the stage where he's "almost being desensitized to the threats" -- from both right and left -- such is their regularity.
The couple's decision comes as accusations of anti-Semitism dog Britain's main opposition Labour Party and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn. At the same time, incidents of recorded anti-Semitism are near record levels.
Some British Jews who have the financial means have started to consider buying property in Israel, Falter said, even if they aren't planning an imminent move. Of course, not all can afford to relocate even if they want to.
"It's a very sad state of affairs because we have all grown up here and for most us this is where our grandparents found refuge during the darkest days of humanity," said Falter.
The seeds of the crisis lie in Jeremy Corbyn's election as Labour leader in 2015.
"I don't know how many people are actively thinking on those terms of leaving the country but certainly a lot of Jewish people are worrying about what the future might hold," Dave Rich, head of policy for the CST, told CNN.
Although it's hard to quantify, the publicity around anti-Semitism may have led both to more incidents occurring and to more being reported, he said.
"There is just general concern across the Jewish community at the moment about anti-Semitism, about the fact that it seems to be part of mainstream politics and mainstream life in a way that it never used to be."
**************
Cheers.
Sriram
If Corbyn does not get in and the extreme right do....would the UK be any safer for the people mentioned ?
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Yes...anti-semitism is difficult to understand. I am not sure if it is a racial or religious or immigration or financial issue.
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So now I have a bit more time. Is there anti-Semitism in the UK, yes. Always had been always will be, I suspect. There are few if any places where Jewish people have not and do not suffer from anti-Semitism.
Is there an increase in anti-Semitism? Not sure. There is as noted in the article an increase in attacks but noting attacks as anti-Semitic is relatively recent so it may be about improved recording. That isn't to say that there is Not a problem to be dealt with but in my memory it seemed a lot more acceptable for politicians to say anti-Semitic things and not be questioned.
Is any rise attributable to the election of Cornyn as leader of Labour Party? In my opinion,no, well not in any direct way. Traditionally, as Vlad has covered, the anti-Semitism we have seen here has been from the far right. At the same time there has been a strong anti Zionist streak in the left, and that has been supportive of Palestinian rights. Almost all of this is in no way anti Semitic but at the extreme , those who are anti Semitic on the left have used it as a cover.
That said the whole idea of left/right at these extremes, while a shorthand that serves well in the centre breaks down. It's often been suggested that politics in this sense is circular, and at the extremes meets up. Certainly in regard to how it has shown in the UK over the last half century, that seems true.
The impact of some of the rhetoric used by those supporting Brexit may also be a factor. While its coded dogwhistle references were in the main meant to say Muslim, it does in general just say foreigners. In addition the whole question of anti Semitism becoming about Jewish people as opposed to what were referred to as the Semitic races, allows a blurring in that anyone a bit not white enough from a land far enough away is seen as part of the problem.
While I think the Labour Party does have an issue, that it now has a minority of far left anti Semites in it, in part related to a stronger support for Palestinan rights by Corbyn (though I don't think he deliberately encourages it), the deliberate manipulation of that by parts for f the media such as the Daily Mail for their own ends, has been imo at least part of the increase in anti Semitic attacks, and the feelings of insecurity expressed by those in the article, and those friends Rhiannon wrote of, and the feelings of my Jewish friends. For balance here, I should note that a minority of my Jewish friends are this as a way of shutting down criticism of Israel, and are supportive of Corbyn. I
I have been following the internal debates in the Labour party on this and as with all debates nowadays it seems that the two sides feel driven to extreme positions because any form of compromise suggestions leads to being shot by both sides. I cannot currently see a way this can be dealt with in a fashion that will not lead to some form of split. That is, or course, in part w hat was the aim of those who are Corbyn as a danger to their own interests.
I am conscious that in terms of posts on here this is already relatively long, but in !any ways it's just a short sketch.
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I think that maybe the perceived rise in antisemitism could stem in part from the trend to put labels on ourselves and others. The public discourse is very much that if you are this, then you are not that. One staggering comment piece in The Guardian recently said that white women cry at work as a way of using their tears as a racist weapon. Couldn't possibly be because they were upset, because that would be making them human and vulnerable, the same as the woman of colour who wrote the article. Probably another thread in here somewhere, but we live in times in which 'others' are dehumanised, which in turn makes us put up our defences as we think that we in turn are viewed as less than human by those not like us. When my Jewish friends were burgled that may well have been because they are wealthy, but they saw it and the police response as a form of attack on their Jewishnes.
And I'd also like to throw in the rise of internet conspiracy theories, many of which are antisemitic in tone and which a frightening number of people swallow whole.
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As an addendum, in one of the ongoing Twitter slats last night former Labour MP, and current councillor, Jim Sheridan posted a tweet, details of which are in the link beliw, which has lead to his suspension. This will be seized on to show the Labour Party has a problem with anti Semitism by those areas of the media that both pander to those spreading Islamophobia,, and spread it themselvex. This isn't to excuse what is obviously an anti Semitic comment but that not everything here can be understood without wondering about the motivations of those involved.
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-suspends-councillor-jim-sheridan-after-anti-semitism-rant-11475559
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And the weird way in which Labour conducts itself in the Age of Corbyn has only added fuel to the suggestions of anti-semitism, when what we are actually looking at at least some of the time is Protecting Jeremy.
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And the weird way in which Labour conducts itself in the Age of Corbyn has only added fuel to the suggestions of anti-semitism, when what we are actually looking at at least some of the time is Protecting Jeremy.
Given the current internecine battle, the idea that is much of a thing as Labour here seems odd to me. Though the current battleground is anti semitism, it's multifaceted and I don't see it as caused purely by those who support Corbyn.
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Given the current internecine battle, the idea that is much of a thing as Labour here seems odd to me. Though the current battleground is anti semitism, it's multifaceted and I don't see it as caused purely by those who support Corbyn.
Antisemitism is only one thing driving Labour apart. It isn't only caused by Corbyn supporters of course, but what looks like antisemitism is sometimes a bodged attempt at protecting the leadership.
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Antisemitism is only one thing driving Labour apart. It isn't only caused by Corbyn supporters of course, but what looks like antisemitism is sometimes a bodged attempt at protecting the leadership.
Agree but what is often portrayed as an attempt to reduce anti Semitic is also sometimes an attempt to attack the leadership. This is the point I was making about people being driven to the extremes by the current problems.
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I am surprised that NS and Rhinnon have so much to say about this important subject but no one else seems to have anything to contribute.
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I am surprised that NS and Rhinnon have so much to say about this important subject but no one else seems to have anything to contribute.
There were two main organisations in at the beginning of the Corbyn antisemitism charges one of which, it's leadership was mainly senior Conservative party members. That fact should I feel be known. The practice of the press going for the labour leader happened to Miliband, Corbyn's jewish predecessor.
The article goes back too far since in 2015 when Corbyn was elected nobody foresaw him as reaching the next election due in 2020 with the tories just having become a majority government. Corbyn was not expected to survive post Brexit and in the run up to the 2017 election I don't recall antisemitism being part of the onslaught Corbyn received from the press.
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And in Labour, anti-Semitism is muddled with criticism of Israel.
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And in Labour, anti-Semitism is muddled with criticism of Israel.
That muddle isn't just in Labour.
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There were two main organisations in at the beginning of the Corbyn antisemitism charges one of which, it's leadership was mainly senior Conservative party members. That fact should I feel be known. The practice of the press going for the labour leader happened to Miliband, Corbyn's jewish predecessor.
The article goes back too far since in 2015 when Corbyn was elected nobody foresaw him as reaching the next election due in 2020 with the tories just having become a majority government. Corbyn was not expected to survive post Brexit and in the run up to the 2017 election I don't recall antisemitism being part of the onslaught Corbyn received from the press.
Just to flag Vlad is factually incorrect about the issues not being raised in 2015
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/19/jeremy-corbyn-backtracks-over-claim-he-had-never-met-lebanese-activist
That doesn't mean Cornyn is actually anti semtic, that the issues in the Labour Party are any cause of the noted increase in anti semitic attacks, or that the idea that this might be part of a smart campaign by some.
Just as that there is a smear campaign doesn't mean there are no anti Semites in Labour, or th at there is no issue about Corbyn's behsviour.
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Just to flag Vlad is factually incorrect about the issues not being raised in 2015
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/19/jeremy-corbyn-backtracks-over-claim-he-had-never-met-lebanese-activist
Where did I say issues were not raised in 2015?
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Where did I say issues were not raised in 2015?
in the post I had replied to when you write
'The article goes back too far since in 2015 when Corbyn was elected nobody foresaw him as reaching the next election due in 2020 with the tories just having become a majority government. Corbyn was not expected to survive post Brexit and in the run up to the 2017 election I don't recall antisemitism being part of the onslaught Corbyn received from the press.
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in the post I had replied to when you write
'The article goes back too far since in 2015 when Corbyn was elected nobody foresaw him as reaching the next election due in 2020 with the tories just having become a majority government. Corbyn was not expected to survive post Brexit and in the run up to the 2017 election I don't recall antisemitism being part of the onslaught Corbyn received from the press.
Yes, but where do I say issues were not raised in 2015? All I say about 2015 is that he wasn't foreseen to last until 2020.
Now if antisemitism was an important feature of the 2017 election how do I not recall that and why was Corbyn still acceptable to so many voters?
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Yes, but where do I say issues were not raised in 2015? All I say about 2015 is that he wasn't foreseen to last until 2020.
Now if antisemitism was an important feature of the 2017 election how do I not recall that and why was Corbyn still acceptable to so many voters?
You said the article was wrong to mention 2015, so given that the issue was raised then on what way was it wrong to mention it?
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You said the article was wrong to mention 2015, so given that the issue was raised then on what way was it wrong to mention it?
The article gives completely the wrong context of Corbyn in 2015. It gives the impression that there was much quaking amongst the populace when Corbyn was elected. The only quaking was due to laughter. Toby Young's view that labour would now never get elected was the order of the day. The tories, who were supremely represented in the JLC, maintained that view right up to the 2017 election.
There seems to be a lot of historical revisionism about this.
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The article gives completely the wrong context of Corbyn in 2015. It gives the impression that there was much quaking amongst the populace when Corbyn was elected. The only quaking was due to laughter. Toby Young's view that labour would now never get elected was the order of the day. The tories, who were supremely represented in the JLC, maintained that view right up to the 2017 election.
There seems to be a lot of historical revisionism about this.
No, what it says as regards 2015 is
'The seeds of the crisis lie in Jeremy Corbyn's election as Labour leader in 2015.' Nothing about quaking populace. Now, as covered in my reply to Sriram, I don't think anti semitism in these terms starts with Corbyn's election but is a much longer term question.
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Anything said about whether it another religion's loonies that are doing this or have I missed something?
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And in Labour, anti-Semitism is muddled with criticism of Israel.
Largely because Israel's supporters, especially in the evangelical Christian lobby, deliberately muddle it.
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evangelical TORY Christian lobby
FTFY
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I've been away for a few days so missed out on much of this - but I'm with Rhi on this. I don't understand it. It seldom crosses my mind to even think that somebody might be Jewish and if it does then so what? The whole thing is bizarre.
The Labour party's inability to get to grips with it is depressing and is one of the things that so worries me about Corbyn.
Not that he is anti-Semitic because he isn't, but the fact that he is incapable of managing these issues when they come up. And they will continue to come up, the establishment will have a whole load of things that will be brought out about him and twisted into a narrative to make him look something completely other than he is.
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It is personality, which should be important, not one's race, colour, creed, gender or sexuality.
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It is personality, which should be important, not one's race, colour, creed, gender or sexuality.
No, it is someone's basic humanity that matters. Even if they are utter dipsticks. Which a lot of people are.
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I understand anti Semitism from the various ways conveyed by its proponents at the same time I can think of plenty of things to be pro Semite about, just for starters have a look at the list of Jewish Nobel prize winners, some 25% Jewish winners and have a think about the amount these Jewish winners have enriched this world for all of us.
ippy
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Just to flag that the couple referred to in the report have a specific agenda
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/more-than-70-attend-re-launch-of-uk-zionist-party/
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Largely because Israel's supporters, especially in the evangelical Christian lobby, deliberately muddle it.
It seems more complex than that. I'm sure that various supporters of Israel hate Corbyn, as do probably various right-wing Labour people. And they may be using anti-Semitism as a weapon.
So in a way, Corbyn can't win. He has a faction in Labour determined to get rid of him, of course this is perfectly OK within Labour rules, but they are helping the Tories. What amazes me about Corbyn is his toughness, with the press gunning for him as well.
It's Brexit where I have a quarrel with him.
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It seems more complex than that. I'm sure that various supporters of Israel hate Corbyn, as do probably various right-wing Labour people. And they may be using anti-Semitism as a weapon.
So in a way, Corbyn can't win. He has a faction in Labour determined to get rid of him, of course this is perfectly OK within Labour rules, but they are helping the Tories. What amazes me about Corbyn is his toughness, with the press gunning for him as well.
It's Brexit where I have a quarrel with him.
The problem is that his handling of it has been so inept. This could have been dealt with two, three years ago.
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The problem is that his handling of it has been so inept. This could have been dealt with two, three years ago.
Then the right wing would find another weapon. They will never give up.
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The problem is that his handling of it has been so inept. This could have been dealt with two, three years ago.
And it's as if he hasn't noticed. It doesn't seem tough to me it seems out of touch.
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Then the right wing would find another weapon. They will never give up.
Well, yes, it's sort of at least some of their point. That they are using his weakness doesn't make him strong.
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And it's as if he hasn't noticed. It doesn't seem tough to me it seems out of touch.
Out of touch, and delusional. 'I know I'm a nice bloke so it must be obvious to everyone.'
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Then the right wing would find another weapon. They will never give up.
The right wanted him elected leader in the first place.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/24/corbyn-english-irony-video-reignites-antisemitism-row-labour
So those non-Jewish Zionists who perhaps might have lived here for all their lives but don't understand English irony would be who, exactly?
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/24/corbyn-english-irony-video-reignites-antisemitism-row-labour
So those non-Jewish Zionists who perhaps might have lived here for all their lives but don't understand English irony would be who, exactly?
According to your link he seems to be referring to the Zionists who were in the audience during a speech by Manuel Hassassian, the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, and who then came up and berated Manuel Hassassian for what he said about the history of Palestine.
I wouldn't assume that all Zionist activists are Jewish but not really sure how one goes about finding out the names and races of any activists who do come up to argue with speakers.
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According to your link he seems to be referring to the Zionists who were in the audience during a speech by Manuel Hassassian, the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, and who then came up and berated Manuel Hassassian for what he said about the history of Palestine.
I wouldn't assume that all Zionist activists are Jewish but not really sure how one goes about finding out the names and races of any activists who do come up to argue with speakers.
What's English irony?
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What's English irony?
The kind of irony found in English literature or writing or speech?
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The kind of irony found in English literature or writing or speech?
Aye, right.
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It is personality, which should be important, not one's race, colour, creed, gender or sexuality.
Do you really feel these qualities have NOTHING at all to do with character ?!?!!?!?
Nick
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Do you really feel these qualities have NOTHING at all to do with character ?!?!!?!?
Nick
So you would judge someone based on one of those pieces of information?
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I am, and have been a big fan of David Schneider for years. He's been one of the most reasonable and coherent Twitter posters on the issue of anti-Semitism in the UK and Labour. This strikes a chord
https://mobile.twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1033045924895965184
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I disagree with David Schneider's interpretation. I see nothing wrong with suggesting some people don't get English irony - it's a cultural issue, not a race issue. Some people of various races who don't live here get English irony. Friends in the US tell me some of their friends don't get some of their English sarcasm - they emigrated to the US from Sri Lanka so have never lived in England but absorbed certain aspects of English culture from books, radio, TV and from people returning on holiday from studying in the UK.
I think some people are too sensitive about references to the English or English culture.
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I disagree with David Schneider's interpretation. I see nothing wrong with suggesting some people don't get English irony - it's a cultural issue, not a race issue. Some people of various races who don't live here get English irony. Friends in the US tell me some of their friends don't get some of their English sarcasm - they emigrated to the US from Sri Lanka so have never lived in England but absorbed certain aspects of English culture from books, radio, TV and from people returning on holiday from studying in the UK.
I think some people are too sensitive about references to the English or English culture.
Except Corbyn refers to people living in 'this' country. Not people speaking English.
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Except Corbyn refers to people living in 'this' country. Not people speaking English.
Corbyn refers to the Zionist activists in the audience who came up to argue with the speaker, Manuel Hassassian, who gave a speech on the history of Palestine as “They clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either."
“Manuel does understand English irony, and uses it very effectively. So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with.”
Not seeing the problem yet. Where is the generalisation about Zionists or Jews? What is the issue with calling parts of a speech made by a Palestinian "English irony" or offering help in understanding Manuel's use of English irony?
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So you would judge someone based on one of those pieces of information?
That is SO obviously what I DIDN'T say !!!!!
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Corbyn refers to the Zionist activists in the audience who came up to argue with the speaker, Manuel Hassassian, who gave a speech on the history of Palestine as “They clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either."
“Manuel does understand English irony, and uses it very effectively. So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with.”
Not seeing the problem yet. Where is the generalisation about Zionists or Jews? What is the issue with calling parts of a speech made by a Palestinian "English irony" or offering help in understanding Manuel's use of English irony?
So when he says 'having lived in this country', how are you translating that to mean all English written language and English speaking countries?
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That is SO obviously what I DIDN'T say !!!!!
WHY!!!!
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I asked if said qualities have no effect. As here....
Do you really feel these qualities have NOTHING at all to do with character ?!?!!?!?
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I asked if said qualities have no effect. As here....
Do you really feel these qualities have NOTHING at all to do with character ?!?!!?!?
I don't think those are qualities. What do you think they tell you ABOUT character?
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So when he says 'having lived in this country', how are you translating that to mean all English written language and English speaking countries?
I haven't generalised about "all" anything.
Corbyn says Manuel understands English irony. Manuel is not English and may well have lived in England part of his life, since he was the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, but not all his life.
The activists who "berated" Manuel after the speech "don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either."
What is the problem with Corbyn's opinion that some people with whom he came into contact understood English irony and some people didn't, if all the people he was referring to were originally from abroad and have then lived in England?
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I haven't generalised about "all" anything.
Corbyn says Manuel understands English irony. Manuel is not English and may well have lived in England part of his life, since he was the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, but not all his life.
The activists who "berated" Manuel after the speech "don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either."
What is the problem with Corbyn's opinion that some people with whom he came into contact understood English irony and some people didn't, if all the people he was referring to were originally from abroad and have then lived in England?
Who said you had 'generalised '? I see you missed out the 'in this country' bit again. Is this country the US? After all that's what you have implied with your translation of this country to meaning the English language?
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Who said you had 'generalised '? I see you missed out the 'in this country' bit again. Is this country the US? After all that's what you have implied with your translation of this country to meaning the English language?
How are you using the word "all"?
Incorrect. I have not missed out anything about "in this country". I mentioned England, several times. I mentioned the US when I said "English irony" could be understood by foreign people. Such as Manuel for example.
ETA: I have lived in this country almost all my life. There are probably things I don't understand about English [insert some cultural reference or aspect here]. What's wrong with the idea that you can live in a country all your life and not understand particular cultural aspects, especially if you have cultural/ political/ ethnic/ religious ties to a foreign country? There are foreign people who have lived their whole lives in Sri Lanka who do not understand certain cultural aspects of Sri Lankan communities. There are foreign people in Saudi and Dubai who have lived there their whole lives but don't understand certain Arab cultural aspects. Seems reasonable.
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Corbyn says Manuel understands English irony.
¿Qué?
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45435365
OK, Up to now I've been seeing Corbyn as an obstinate old fool over the IHRA issue. But, after watching the BBC programmes on British Jews over the last couple of days, have been reconsidering the whole Israel/Palestinian conflict.
Mostly I see it as an outcome of the normal ebb and flow of history - Palestinians having been defeated, unfairly or not, need to get on with their lives, not, over 50 years later, be living as refugees. As they have practically no means of defeating the Israelis they could just give up on the idea of getting back land that once belonged to their grandparents. Terrorism and firing toy rockets doesn't cut it, though I can understand the negative attitude: It does make me angry when Netanyahu or Mark Regev are on the news and lying their arses off.
I don't believe in "race" as a scientific idea or as a useful concept, people should all be treated fairly irrespective of ancestral genetic or historical background. Mostly this means that people should be treated the same. The only exception, imv, concerns minority ethnic or cultural groups that are in danger of extinction or devastation, and need separate spaces until they can eventually merge in with the rest of humanity.
However, Zionism fundamentally embraces the concept of race and Israel was founded on that basis. The adoption of the Nation-State Bill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People) as a Basic Law in July incorporates racism as part of the constitution. I can only conclude that Israel is a racist endeavour.
So .. even though I don't accept that people are of different "races" and am willing to accept that "Israel has a right to exist", I am, according to the IHRA definitions, an anti-semite.
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I'm fine being labelled anti-semitic. I figure I'd rather be called an anti-semite than stop saying that Israel, or indeed any other country that defines race as the criteria for immigration, is a racist endeavour. I'll take being called anti-semitic as a compliment in that context, as it means I don't support racism.
I understand your point about the Palestinians losing. But the issue is that more and more land is being taken for illegal settlements so it's not surprising that the Palestinians keep fighting. They might not be able to defeat Israel but they don't need to roll over and just let them keep taking more land without putting up some kind of fight.
Ben-Gurion acknowledged this when he said:
"A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. … I am certain that we well not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreements with our Arab neighbors or by some other means. . . [If the Arabs refuse] we shall have to speak to them in another language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."
"In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us. But let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. I insist on the truth, not out of respect for scientific but political realities. The acknowledgement of this truth leads to inevitable and serious conclusions regarding our work in Palestine… let us not build on the hope the terrorist gangs will get tired. If some get tired, others will replace them.
A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us...
"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand but in the political sphere they are superior. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside. They defend bases which are theirs, which is easier than conquering new bases... let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini's propaganda — this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs."
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I mostly agree.
In 1938 though, a nationalist and racist outlook on world affairs were quite usual, we should have come on a long way from that.
Israel should adopt the UN resolutions concerning it, stop extending the settlements and negotiate in good faith for peace.
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It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.
We have been invaded many times over the centuries throughout History.
The truth is the Jews have the right to live in peace wherever they are. Just as Christians have the right to live in peace.
Whatever the politics... God has a plan for his people all people. In reality Christians are Jews through the Messiah.
Can you really turn against the Jews without turning on yourselves?
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It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.
We have been invaded many times over the centuries throughout History.
The truth is the Jews have the right to live in peace wherever they are. Just as Christians have the right to live in peace.
Whatever the politics... God has a plan for his people all people. In reality Christians are Jews through the Messiah.
Can you really turn against the Jews without turning on yourselves?
Bollocks! For most of the Jews who emigrate to Israel and knock down Palestinian homes so they can build their own out of the rubble, well their ancestors probably haven't set foot in that part of the world for well over thousand years.
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It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.
We have been invaded many times over the centuries throughout History.
The truth is the Jews have the right to live in peace wherever they are. Just as Christians have the right to live in peace.
Whatever the politics... God has a plan for his people all people. In reality Christians are Jews through the Messiah.
Can you really turn against the Jews without turning on yourselves?
And how about Native Americans in the USA ?
Will Mr Trump allow them to claim back their land. No he won't, yet another great example of his "Christian values" - screw anyone who gets in my way, whatever the cost. You don't half talk nonsense.
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It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.
We have been invaded many times over the centuries throughout History.
The truth is the Jews have the right to live in peace wherever they are. Just as Christians have the right to live in peace.
Whatever the politics... God has a plan for his people all people. In reality Christians are Jews through the Messiah.
Can you really turn against the Jews without turning on yourselves?
Not all Jews support the tactics of the Israeli government. There are Jewish teenagers in Israel who have faced prosecution for refusing to serve in the IDF. Former IDF soldiers have spoken out about the way they were required to treat Palestinian civilians as 2nd class citizens, entering their homes with guns as part of routine operations in occupied areas, disturbing sleeping children and searching their rooms and then leaving, reinforcing the sense of their own powerlessness in Palestinian minds and the uselessness of non-violent action or diplomacy in ending occupation.
I doubt anyone thought people could walk into an already populated region and militarily declare a new country against the wishes of a substantial number of its inhabitants without it leading to conflict. Based on their speeches and writings at the time, the key Zionists who conceived the plan did not anticipate a peaceful outcome.
Peace is rarely achieved through the use of missiles, guns, soldiers, and roadblocks. Killing civilians leads to a political cause with international supporters and also leads to more people willing to fight and die for revenge/ freedom. People who have their daily lives disrupted and made unnecessarily difficult, who are prevented from getting the normal access to hospitals and schools and a future that we take for granted, and whose homes are destroyed tend to not feel very peaceful.
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Bollocks! For most of the Jews who emigrate to Israel and knock down Palestinian homes so they can build their own out of the rubble, well their ancestors probably haven't set foot in that part of the world for well over thousand years.
Exactemundo. Israel is to the present what South Africa was to the 60s, 70s and 80s, and should have the same pariah status.
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So when did the Muslims - oh sorry PALESTINIANS - move in then?
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So when did the Muslims - oh sorry PALESTINIANS - move in then?
Go on, then - give us the usual Zionist bollocks about them only moving there shortly before 1948.
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NO NO I'm not THAT daft !?!?!?
Can you say - after the invention of Islam - when it was Muslims 'occupied' any OTHER part of the world apart from Makkah?
Nick
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No, I can't. What is your point, exactly?
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WELLLLL You gave the impression you think you know the history of Judaism & Islam - politics inc.
Sorry if I was wrong.
Nick
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And how about Native Americans in the USA ?
Will Mr Trump allow them to claim back their land. No he won't, yet another great example of his "Christian values" - screw anyone who gets in my way, whatever the cost. You don't half talk nonsense.
We all know the red indian is the only true native of America. As for your reply... taking something out of context to make it something it never was and which bears no resemblance to the issue at hand shows a lack on your part. A lack which causes you to attack and make something up to enable you to do so but makes no real sense in the reality of the argument.
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Bollocks! For most of the Jews who emigrate to Israel and knock down Palestinian homes so they can build their own out of the rubble, well their ancestors probably haven't set foot in that part of the world for well over thousand years.
Roman Catholic jealousy isn't pretty however you look at it. The Pope helped kill millions of Jews by doing nothing to stop Hitler. Israel belongs to the Jews just as the many Countries and natives of their countries belong to those which were once the British Empire. When you own something it belongs to the owner NO matter where it is. But the reality is Christ does not belong to the Roman Catholic Church he is a Jew and the true believers belong to Christ and the true Church which the builders were the Jews. Do you think God is not aware? It is just the pope and the others haven't realised it yet. ONLY one intercessor and his Name is Jesus Christ and one Spirit who binds us all the Holy Spirit. UNDERSTANDING would stop a lot of the hateful and hurtful replies men make.
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Not all Jews support the tactics of the Israeli government. There are Jewish teenagers in Israel who have faced prosecution for refusing to serve in the IDF. Former IDF soldiers have spoken out about the way they were required to treat Palestinian civilians as 2nd class citizens, entering their homes with guns as part of routine operations in occupied areas, disturbing sleeping children and searching their rooms and then leaving, reinforcing the sense of their own powerlessness in Palestinian minds and the uselessness of non-violent action or diplomacy in ending occupation.
I doubt anyone thought people could walk into an already populated region and militarily declare a new country against the wishes of a substantial number of its inhabitants without it leading to conflict. Based on their speeches and writings at the time, the key Zionists who conceived the plan did not anticipate a peaceful outcome.
Peace is rarely achieved through the use of missiles, guns, soldiers, and roadblocks. Killing civilians leads to a political cause with international supporters and also leads to more people willing to fight and die for revenge/ freedom. People who have their daily lives disrupted and made unnecessarily difficult, who are prevented from getting the normal access to hospitals and schools and a future that we take for granted, and whose homes are destroyed tend to not feel very peaceful.
Takes two to fight
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It isn't 'RACE' as such it is about the right to occupy the land they own.
It is like telling the 'English Man' he has no right to call England his home land and the right to be Christian.
The Israelites have the right to be Jewish and the right to live and call Israel their own land.
The Romans took over ruling Palestine over a period of years in the first century CE. Saying that the Jews have a right to that land is about equivalent to arguing that the Welsh have a right to England. The only difference is that, by accident of history, there's a book written by Jews that says God gave them that land.
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Exactemundo. Israel is to the present what South Africa was to the 60s, 70s and 80s, and should have the same pariah status.
Why?
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Why?
Because it practices apartheid, and illegally occupies land.
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Why?
By the way they treat the Palestianians. Israel has the Palestians enclosed in a ghetto with its grip getting ever tighter. Ironic really.
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Roman Catholic jealousy isn't pretty however you look at it. The Pope helped kill millions of Jews by doing nothing to stop Hitler. Israel belongs to the Jews just as the many Countries and natives of their countries belong to those which were once the British Empire. When you own something it belongs to the owner NO matter where it is. But the reality is Christ does not belong to the Roman Catholic Church he is a Jew and the true believers belong to Christ and the true Church which the builders were the Jews. Do you think God is not aware? It is just the pope and the others haven't realised it yet. ONLY one intercessor and his Name is Jesus Christ and one Spirit who binds us all the Holy Spirit. UNDERSTANDING would stop a lot of the hateful and hurtful replies men make.
What's the pope got to do with me? You really have no clue.Now sod off!
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We all know the red indian is the only true native of America. As for your reply... taking something out of context to make it something it never was and which bears no resemblance to the issue at hand shows a lack on your part. A lack which causes you to attack and make something up to enable you to do so but makes no real sense in the reality of the argument.
Yes - but you have claimed that it is God's plan to have Trump as president. Trump as president does not have Native Americans best interests in his heart. So God's plan is to disadvantage Native Americans.
Stop attacking the poster and address the issue.
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Because it practices apartheid, and illegally occupies land.
It doesn't practise arpartheid. In fact, in many ways, it is quite progressive. You wouldn't want to be gay in the Palestinian controlled areas.
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While you sleep in your bed tonight, Jeremy.....
https://twitter.com/AbujomaaGaza/status/1062094206435581953
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While you sleep in your bed tonight, Jeremy.....
https://twitter.com/AbujomaaGaza/status/1062094206435581953
We all know that their are problem elementd in Gaza...but whose fault is that?
When a people are deprived of their resources, right of access, medical supplies, education, and stripped of land owned by their families for centuries, what recourse is left?
Of course no-one condones terrorism; but can anyone condone supression?
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We all know that their are problem elementd in Gaza...but whose fault is that?
When a people are deprived of their resources, right of access, medical supplies, education, and stripped of land owned by their families for centuries, what recourse is left?
Of course no-one condones terrorism; but can anyone condone supression?
Well said.
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While you sleep in your bed tonight, Jeremy.....
https://twitter.com/AbujomaaGaza/status/1062094206435581953
Just remember that people sleeping in Israel have the same problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
There are two sides to this tragedy. Don't airbrush one of them.
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There are two sides to this tragedy. Don't airbrush one of them.
Indeed there are: Israel, the oppressors, and the Palestinians, the oppressed.
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Onthewhole, the Palestinians seem to come off worst in this sad mess - despite having lived in the land for centuries to be kicked out of it - without compensation, to make way for illegal towns - illegal by international law. A chap I know can't visit his mother and baby sisters graves - his mum died in childbirth in 1953. There's a damn great supermarket there now, which he cannot even access because he cannot cross the wall.
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Indeed there are: Israel, the oppressors, and the Palestinians, the oppressed.
You’d recognize that as overly simplistic if you had bothered to read any of the links I provided.