Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Roses on September 17, 2018, 11:25:21 AM
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Revelation, which very nearly didn't make it into the Bible, is open to a myriad of interpretations, many of which are completely off the wall. They would be amusing if it wasn't for extreme Biblical literalists who use that book to bolster their crazy end time and hell fire threats.
The moderate Christians of my acquaintance don't buy Revelation at all, and share my thoughts on the topic.
What do posters on this forum think about ditching that book?
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Revelation, which very nearly didn't make it into the Bible, is open to a myriad of interpretations, many of which are completely off the wall. They would be amusing if it wasn't for extreme Biblical literalists who use that book to bolster their crazy end time and hell fire threats.
The moderate Christians of my acquaintance don't buy Revelation at all, and share my thoughts on the topic.
What do posters on this forum think about ditching that book?
'Not my circus, not my monkeys'
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There is much in Revelation which is useful - the 'letters to the seven churches', for example. Much is gobblegegook - untill you realise that, like several Old Testament and Apocrypha books, the apocalyptic language was designed for its hearers, who would be familiar with the symbolism. Revelation is one such; much of the imageary is not prophetic Mystic Meg stuff - it is directed at the churches in Asia Minor which had suffered the first Neronic persecution, and whose Jewish element were still reeling after Vespasian and Titus' action in their homeland. Jews and Christians had been scattered....taking their understanding of the apocalyptic language with them. John writes in a way they could understand, but which bamboozles us. Most of the book deals with life as they lived it, not at a future date - even the prophetic stuff is studded with references to other apocalyptic books; our problem is that, while we can easily interpret the stuff about lamps, bowls, scrolls, beasts, etc, some of it is so obscure to our time that we can't interpret it easily - and this leads many to put interpretations on it which were never there in the first place. I've used Revelation a lot - and will do so again. But I treat the book both with reverence and caution. Here's an intro to the book from a reasonably balanced theologian; https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=916
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When I was a kid, and forced to attend a pentecostal church, the pastors seemed to spend more time quoting Revelation than any other Biblical book. They seemed to get off on trying to scare their audience with their grisly interpretations of that book. I know how much it frightened me as a child, I am concerned that modern day pentecostal pastors are still scaring children and the vulnerable with that horrible nonsense. >:(
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When I was a kid, and forced to attend a pentecostal church, the pastors seemed to spend more time quoting Revelation than any other Biblical book. They seemed to get off on trying to scare their audience with their grisly interpretations of that book. I know how much it frightened me as a child, I am concerned that modern day pentecostal pastors are still scaring children and the vulnerable with that horrible nonsense. >:(
So: because you had a bad experience of one part of one denomination of the Church, you want the book ditched?
Many other branches of that denomination, and other denominations, can cope with the symbolism perfectly well, using the book in context as part of sermon or bible study, without getting into daft ideas concerning it.
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So: because you had a bad experience of one part of one denomination of the Church, you want the book ditched?
Many other branches of that denomination, and other denominations, can cope with the symbolism perfectly well, using the book in context as part of sermon or bible study, without getting into daft ideas concerning it.
Exactemundo. Unfortunately, LR is incapable of objectivity.
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Exactemundo. Unfortunately, LR is incapable of objectivity.
And you are I suppose? You posts don't give that impression. One can only speak from one's own experience as you do.
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Have a shuftie at this link, LR: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/things-might-mistakenly-believe-book-revelation/ It tells you, roughly, what Revelation ISN'T about.
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And you are I suppose? You posts don't give that impression. One can only speak from one's own experience as you do.
Firstly, that isn't true, and secondly, no, I don't.
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Firstly, that isn't true, and secondly, no, I don't.
Sez you! ;D
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Revelation, which very nearly didn't make it into the Bible, is open to a myriad of interpretations, many of which are completely off the wall. They would be amusing if it wasn't for extreme Biblical literalists who use that book to bolster their crazy end time and hell fire threats.
The moderate Christians of my acquaintance don't buy Revelation at all, and share my thoughts on the topic.
What do posters on this forum think about ditching that book?
As long as it's considered the unequivocal 'word of God' there is indeed potential for much harm. As a work of literature, it's rather more interesting than many ancient religious texts, and its imagery is no more fantastical than Ezekiel or the Book of Daniel. As such, I wouldn't want it 'ditched' - I'm not into book burning.
It does betray signs of an undesirable emotional state in the mind of the writer - to say the least. He's obviously very vexed about the persecution that many Christians have received, and wishes that his opposers be paid back not so much in kind, as a millionfold. Lots of anticipated Schadenfreude there.
However, the last two chapters are (for the most part) very beautiful, and no doubt provide comfort for suffering believers.
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There is much in Revelation which is useful - the 'letters to the seven churches', for example. Much is gobblegegook - untill you realise that, like several Old Testament and Apocrypha books, the apocalyptic language was designed for its hearers, who would be familiar with the symbolism. Revelation is one such; much of the imageary is not prophetic Mystic Meg stuff - it is directed at the churches in Asia Minor which had suffered the first Neronic persecution, and whose Jewish element were still reeling after Vespasian and Titus' action in their homeland. Jews and Christians had been scattered....taking their understanding of the apocalyptic language with them. John writes in a way they could understand, but which bamboozles us. Most of the book deals with life as they lived it, not at a future date - even the prophetic stuff is studded with references to other apocalyptic books; our problem is that, while we can easily interpret the stuff about lamps, bowls, scrolls, beasts, etc, some of it is so obscure to our time that we can't interpret it easily - and this leads many to put interpretations on it which were never there in the first place. I've used Revelation a lot - and will do so again. But I treat the book both with reverence and caution. Here's an intro to the book from a reasonably balanced theologian; https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=916
That sounds like a pretty strong argument for LR's proposal. The book was written using symbolism we don't understand for people who were persecuted by an empire that no longer exists and who are, themselves, long dead. It seems to me that its only use now is for historians of the period.
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Exactemundo. Unfortunately, LR is incapable of objectivity.
The scenario that she describes is abusive, even more so when seen in the context of other things she’s told us about her religious upbringing.
I’d struggle to be objective in her shoes.
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The scenario that she describes is abusive, even more so when seen in the context of other things she’s told us about her religious upbringing.
I’d struggle to be objective in her shoes.
Rubbish. It just needs a bit of intelligence.
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Is that your objective opinion ;)?
I doubt many of us are totally objective, that's frequently obvious when a person isn't even when they are not talking about themselves! However it's not a good idea to personalise things too much because arguments lose credibility, far better to speak generally about issues debated. That's my objective opinion.
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Rubbish. It just needs a bit of intelligence.
How about some empathy?
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How about some empathy?
How about some getting over it?
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How about you not rising to the bait all the time and ignoring instead?
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How about you not rising to the bait all the time and ignoring instead?
Fair point. Might do.
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How about some getting over it?
That’s a no then.
Thought one of the non-negotiables of your faith was compassion?
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I have got over my unpleasant childhood experience of religion by kicking my faith into touch. However, I will always challenge those who still preach the same garbage I had to put up with, causing stress to children and the vulnerable. If the Steve H's of this world can't cope with that, I suggest they ignore my posts, SIMPLES!
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I have got over my unpleasant childhood experience of religion by kicking my faith into touch. However, I will always challenge those who still preach the same garbage I had to put up with, causing stress to children and the vulnerable. If the Steve H's of this world can't cope with that, I suggest they ignore my posts, SIMPLES!
Yes, I agree, you can recover from something but still be angry when you see it still happening,
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Yes, I agree, you can recover from something but still be angry when you see it still happening,
There have been a number of people over the years on this forum who have tried to scare people into conversion by using hell-fire threats. Most posters dismissed their nonsense with the contempt it deserved, but there was always the outside possibility someone who was vulnerable would be distressed by their claptrap.
I was concerned NM's garbage could scare some people, but with each post he makes it obvious he hasn't a clue what he is talking about, so I doubt even the vulnerable would be taken in by it.
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IO don't think NM ever preaches hellfire.
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IO don't think NM ever preaches hellfire.
He does threaten people with the day of judgement and god's wrath if they don't see it his way.
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That sounds like a pretty strong argument for LR's proposal. The book was written using symbolism we don't understand for people who were persecuted by an empire that no longer exists and who are, themselves, long dead. It seems to me that its only use now is for historians of the period.
I would have been a bit more blunt than you jp, but I think your post about sums it up for me too, good one.
Regards ippy
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IO don't think NM ever preaches hellfire.
In fact, he does. There are numerous references in his posts to "The Lake of Fire" in Revelation, and he certainly believes that this is the fate of those who do not follow "righteous science" (yeah - your guess is as good as mine). In this he differs markedly from his friends the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe that after final judgement the wrong'uns die a final death. This is perhaps their only redeeming feature. NM believes in some sort of continual existence in extremely unpleasant circumstances for the ones who don't measure up.
Not sure what is the best approach to persuade someone who thinks they are a prophet of God that they are not. As has been suggested, leaving them to their own devices is probably best.
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Not sure what is the best approach to persuade someone who thinks they are a prophet of God that they are not. As has been suggested, leaving them to their own devices is probably best.
I quite agree. Others have said similarly. In which case: why are you still feeding this fool?
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Revelation, which very nearly didn't make it into the Bible, is open to a myriad of interpretations, many of which are completely off the wall. They would be amusing if it wasn't for extreme Biblical literalists who use that book to bolster their crazy end time and hell fire threats.
The moderate Christians of my acquaintance don't buy Revelation at all, and share my thoughts on the topic.
What do posters on this forum think about ditching that book?
I could recommend a good series of talks on Revelation, but you have to pay to download it so instead I'll give you an example. When it says in Revelation 13 that a beast with 7 heads came out of the sea, remember that in Old Testament prophecy, the sea symbolizes the Gentile nations, and the land symbolizes the people of israel. The beast from the sea is a world empire: beasts from the sea in Daniel 7 represent the Babylonians, Persians and Greeks. So the book of revelation should definitely remain part of the Bible, as it clearly refers back to the old testament.
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I could recommend a good series of talks on Revelation, but you have to pay to download it so instead I'll give you an example. When it says in Revelation 13 that a beast with 7 heads came out of the sea, remember that in Old Testament prophecy, the sea symbolizes the Gentile nations, and the land symbolizes the people of israel. The beast from the sea is a world empire: beasts from the sea in Daniel 7 represent the Babylonians, Persians and Greeks. So the book of revelation should definitely remain part of the Bible, as it clearly refers back to the old testament.
Yeh right. ::) I reckon the author of that crazy book was as high as a kite when he wrote it.
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I could recommend a good series of talks on Revelation, but you have to pay to download it so instead I'll give you an example. When it says in Revelation 13 that a beast with 7 heads came out of the sea, remember that in Old Testament prophecy, the sea symbolizes the Gentile nations, and the land symbolizes the people of israel. The beast from the sea is a world empire: beasts from the sea in Daniel 7 represent the Babylonians, Persians and Greeks. So the book of revelation should definitely remain part of the Bible, as it clearly refers back to the old testament.
I dare say if they knew about the South American Myahans someone would have found a way of including them too, how about the New Caledonians?
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It's of no consequence to me if you all finish up in the fiery lake of sulphur...you will be quickly forgotten about, but those who make the effort to be saved in the accurate way Jesus taught us are like brothers and sisters to me and will be eternally grateful to Almighty God's and Jesus Christ's righteous science...You could be one of that number...but it requires reading the Holy Bible.
NM certainly preaches the hell-fire garbage, this particular post of his gives the impression that daft scenario gives him a thrill. I wonder if he had one hand it a southerly position on his anatomy whilst he was typing it?
You know me Nearly Sane, I don't go round and round in circles with anyone. Your opinion is your opinion...I have qualified what I said and you don't accept it...shame, but there we go. Whilst we are debating a point about what causes suicide many people are hurting inside because of the mechanics I allude to...no one has the answers it seems, but I have offered an answer...avoid wasting our emotional strength because all advertising and all propaganda, all bullies and all evil intent uses the tactics mentioned here and only Jesus Christ fully understands this fact.
A truly SICK post. >:( I am most concerned that someone who is considering suicide could be tipped over the edge if they read it. About five years ago a cousin of mine, who has mental health issues, was preached to by a hell-fire breathing Christian, two days later he attempted to take his own life. He told me his mental state was such that sermon drove him to it :o
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Yeh right. ::) I reckon the author of that crazy book was as high as a kite when he wrote it.
Then you are in all probability mistaken.
He wassimply writing in the style of apocalyptic wringings both in the Old Testament and in the Apacocrypha...Daniel, Joel, Ezekiel, Enoch, Baruch, etc.
Just because you don't employ that style or read authors who do, does not imply their state of mind in any way.
After all, many of the 'histories' we revere from Greco-Roman times were actually written in verse, rather than prose; again, a style we do not employ today - does that negate their value?
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Then you are in all probability mistaken.
He wassimply writing in the style of apocalyptic wringings both in the Old Testament and in the Apacocrypha...Daniel, Joel, Ezekiel, Enoch, Baruch, etc.
Just because you don't employ that style or read authors who do, does not imply their state of mind in any way.
After all, many of the 'histories' we revere from Greco-Roman times were actually written in verse, rather than prose; again, a style we do not employ today - does that negate their value?
Whatever the case that book does a lot more harm than good in the hands of people like NM.
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Whatever the case that book does a lot more harm than good in the hands of people like NM.
I suspect the Ladybird book of "How to do absolutely nothing" would be a serious danger in the aforementioned hands.
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If NM really believes that the unsaved suffer eternal torment, he'ds be remiss not to warn people of the danger they faced, would he not?
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If NM really believes that the unsaved suffer eternal torment, he'ds be remiss not to warn people of the danger they faced, would he not?
Oh for pity's sake don't encourage him! :o
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Oh for pity's sake don't encourage him! :o
;D
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It's of no consequence to me if you all finish up in the fiery lake of sulphur...you will be quickly forgotten about, but those who make the effort to be saved in the accurate way Jesus taught us are like brothers and sisters to me and will be eternally grateful to Almighty God's and Jesus Christ's righteous science...You could be one of that number...but it requires reading the Holy Bible.
NM certainly preaches the hell-fire garbage, this particular post of his gives the impression that daft scenario gives him a thrill. I wonder if he had one hand it a southerly position on his anatomy whilst he was typing it?
You know me Nearly Sane, I don't go round and round in circles with anyone. Your opinion is your opinion...I have qualified what I said and you don't accept it...shame, but there we go. Whilst we are debating a point about what causes suicide many people are hurting inside because of the mechanics I allude to...no one has the answers it seems, but I have offered an answer...avoid wasting our emotional strength because all advertising and all propaganda, all bullies and all evil intent uses the tactics mentioned here and only Jesus Christ fully understands this fact.
A truly SICK post. >:( I am most concerned that someone who is considering suicide could be tipped over the edge if they read it. About five years ago a cousin of mine, who has mental health issues, was preached to by a hell-fire breathing Christian, two days later he attempted to take his own life. He told me his mental state was such that sermon drove him to it :o
Dorothy Rowe, the Ausie psychologist's views on religion will confirm the things you say in your post L R, religious belief causes loads of harm where people are made to feel guilt in loads of areas where guilt isn't needed or necessary.
Regards ippy