Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Pagan Topic => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on October 22, 2018, 11:10:38 AM
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Is there a real power in a witches curse or is it just faith?
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What do you think?
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What do you think?
Almost certainly not. Although they may have power as a form of mind game.
How about you?
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Almost certainly not. Although they may have power as a form of mind game.
How about you?
Depends what you mean by work. If they could upset someone who thought they were real, then yes.
But, work in the sense that they can do magic, then no.
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Depends what you mean by work. If they could upset someone who thought they were real, then yes.
But, work in the sense that they can do magic, then no.
Fair enough.
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Is there a real power in a witches curse or is it just faith?
Like religion belief in such things is the actual power, even though it is all hocus pocus, imo.
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Provided the bolt they've got to fit into isn't buggered, yes. (https://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/summer-essentials/car-accessories/summer-essentials-deals/?553980080&0&cc5_1055&type=shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6rXeBRD3ARIsAD9ni9DAdT4lrPn2qXhz4Zr-_TXjylEHsAqBPtpkGdO3snszmOxQuqZBuhkaApFdEALw_wcB)
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They do work, how they work is debatable. I don't discount the psychological effect and the horror of anyone even thinking of doing something evil.
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What does 'work' mean here? What tests would be required to show that they work?
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They do work, how they work is debatable. I don't discount the psychological effect and the horror of anyone even thinking of doing something evil.
How do you know they work?
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They do work, how they work is debatable. I don't discount the psychological effect and the horror of anyone even thinking of doing something evil.
Why assume a hex is evil?
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Almost certainly not. Although they may have power as a form of mind game.
So what's the power behind Christian prayer? Is that a mind game too?
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Why assume a hex is evil?
No-one has ever given me one Rhiannon but my impression is that it is not given with a kindly intent. I googled and found it is a curse or evil intent.
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So what's the power behind Christian prayer? Is that a mind game too?
We can discuss that on the Christian board, I shall open a thread.
Meanwhile Back on the Pagan thread...do you think hexes work? Do they have real power?
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Why assume a hex is evil?
Because that is the popular conception. Is it wrong? Please explain why it is wrong?
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Because that is the popular conception. Is it wrong? Please explain why it is wrong?
Because a witch will hex a paedophile, or rapist, or war criminal. I'm not saying that it is right, but trying to prevent harm to others by isn't evil.
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No-one has ever given me one Rhiannon but my impression is that it is not given with a kindly intent. I googled and found it is a curse or evil intent.
As I explained to Vlad, most witches only hex to prevent evil. They take very seriously the idea that if they hex or otherwise hurt someone unfairly then what they have caused to happen will be visited back on them threefold, or worse. I'm not a witch so this isn't something I do, but I'm aware that the vast majority of witches try to be a force for good in the world.
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We can discuss that on the Christian board, I shall open a thread.
Meanwhile Back on the Pagan thread...do you think hexes work? Do they have real power?
I'm not a witch. I understand the ethics of witchcraft, but as to the rest, Sir Owl will have to fill you in.
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I'm not a witch. I understand the ethics of witchcraft, but as to the rest, Sir Owl will have to fill you in.
Of course, thank you for your response.
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I tried a malicious hex on this forum at 9am on the 18th of this month.
It only took 5 minutes and 4 seconds for it to work!
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I tried a malicious hex on this forum at 9am on the 18th of this month.
It only took 5 minutes and 4 seconds for it to work!
That's about the same length of time an atheist comedian feels funny.
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What a load of half-witted, superstitious gonads.
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What a load of half-witted, superstitious gonads.
It’s really no different from, say, the Eucharist in that sense. And I say that with respect, as someone who has been on your side of the fence as it were. An atheist may call out witchcraft, but Christianity has no more substance to it.
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Depends on your flavour of Christianity. I take nearly all of it as metaphorical.
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Depends on your flavour of Christianity. I take nearly all of it as metaphorical.
It’s still a sacrament though. Or would you say that anyone can consecrate the Eucharist?
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That's about the same length of time an atheist comedian feels funny.
That would be 5 minutes and 3 seconds longer than you then!
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What a load of half-witted, superstitious gonads.
It’s really no different from, say, the Eucharist in that sense. And I say that with respect, as someone who has been on your side of the fence as it were. An atheist may call out witchcraft, but Christianity has no more substance to it.
My take is that for the individual their beliefs can be metaphors, and attempts to explain their life experience. On that level, there seems little to call out about such things. The link in the original post on the Kavanaugh thread does to me seem a bit '2 bald people fighting over a comb' but that's because the beliefs are phrased in a way that seems to not be metaphor but some claim of truth beyond the idea of metaphor and individual experience. That said, I can see the hex as more a psychological support group, something like mass which could be metaphoric.
I've asked on both here and Vlad's tribute Christian board thread about what it means for hexes/prayers to 'work'. That too seems likely to me something an individual answers, and the answer could well be something that only relates to subjective feelings.
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My take is that for the individual their beliefs can be metaphors, and attempts to explain their life experience. On that level, there seems little to call out about such things. The link in the original post on the Kavanaugh thread does to me seem a bit '2 bald people fighting over a comb' but that's because the beliefs are phrased in a way that seems to not be metaphor but some claim of truth beyond the idea of metaphor and individual experience. That said, I can see the hex as more a psychological support group, something like mass which could be metaphoric.
I've asked on both here and Vlad's tribute Christian board thread about what it means for hexes/prayers to 'work'. That too seems likely to me something an individual answers, and the answer could well be something that only relates to subjective feelings.
I'm not disagreeing with you - for me a part of my path is very much about the messages behind myths and legends for example. But it is a bit rich for the follower of one faith to call out another on 'superstition'. The Eucharist, for example, has no meaning unless it is consecrated, and that has to be done for a priest, who is consecrated in a ceremony as a mediator between God and humanity. However much you may believe the Eucharist to be symbolic, in churches where it is a sacrament it needs ritual to set it apart, to consecrate it, by a person who has special powers conferred on them. What is that other than superstition and magic? And that is without the other nuts-and-bolts required for belief - the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection. Do away with the fundamentals of Christian belief and you've done away with being a Christian. I know, I tried it. In the end up with a meaningless fudge, however much you read Borg and Spong.
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I'm not disagreeing with you - for me a part of my path is very much about the messages behind myths and legends for example. But it is a bit rich for the follower of one faith to call out another on 'superstition'. The Eucharist, for example, has no meaning unless it is consecrated, and that has to be done for a priest, who is consecrated in a ceremony as a mediator between God and humanity. However much you may believe the Eucharist to be symbolic, in churches where it is a sacrament it needs ritual to set it apart, to consecrate it, by a person who has special powers conferred on them. What is that other than superstition and magic? And that is without the other nuts-and-bolts required for belief - the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection. Do away with the fundamentals of Christian belief and you've done away with being a Christian. I know, I tried it. In the end up with a meaningless fudge, however much you read Borg and Spong.
It doesn't much bother me whether someone says that they are a Christian, a pagan, or a Whovian, and I find their definition in complete contrast to any others I've met, or they are said to be No True Whovian by others who follow in the path of the 13 faced god. I'm more interested in what individuals say they believe, and how they act. Ritual can be comforting for some, but essentially meaningless to them beyond the ritual itself. It's a matter of pattern and belonging. That's why my response to a claim of something working' seems to me to need the definition by the individual of what they mean by working.
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It doesn't much bother me whether someone says that they are a Christian, a pagan, or a Whovian, and I find their definition in complete contrast to any others I've met, or they are said to be No True Whovian by others who follow in the path of the 13 faced god. I'm more interested in what individuals say they believe, and how they act. Ritual can be comforting for some, but essentially meaningless to them beyond the ritual itself. It's a matter of pattern and belonging. That's why my response to a claim of something working' seems to me to need the definition by the individual of what they mean by working.
I have never come across the word, 'Whovian', before, I had to look it up.
I agree with you that when someone claims something works, as in the case of a hex, they need to ellucidate.
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I have never come across the word, 'Whovian', before, I had to look it up.
I agree with you that when someone claims something works, as in the case of a hex, they need to ellucidate.
It was inspired by the thread here
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=16265.0
And my comment on it about it perhaps being more suited to the Faith Sharing Board. As someone who has seen some of the flame wars
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlameWar
on Doctor Who, it often seems like a religion so I used it as an example.
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It was inspired by the thread here
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=16265.0
And my comment on it about it perhaps being more suited to the Faith Sharing Board. As someone who has seen some of the flame wars
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlameWar
on Doctor Who, it often seems like a religion so I used it as an example.
I gave up watching Dr Who years ago, none of the Drs in recent years have been as good as the early ones, imo.
Religion and politics bring out the worst in people, especially if one has had bad experiences, especially of religion.
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It doesn't much bother me whether someone says that they are a Christian, a pagan, or a Whovian, and I find their definition in complete contrast to any others I've met, or they are said to be No True Whovian by others who follow in the path of the 13 faced god. I'm more interested in what individuals say they believe, and how they act. Ritual can be comforting for some, but essentially meaningless to them beyond the ritual itself. It's a matter of pattern and belonging. That's why my response to a claim of something working' seems to me to need the definition by the individual of what they mean by working.
And I won't disagree with any of that. I just find it weird when Christians point the finger and laugh at 'superstition' when that's what any faith in the supernatural is, religious or otherwise.
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And I won't disagree with any of that. I just find it weird when Christians point the finger and laugh at 'superstition' when that's what any faith in the supernatural is, religious or otherwise.
It's amazing not every discussion has to be about disagreement! We must be doing something wrong.
I do wonder if belief in the supernatural is that widespread, or indeed if people who might appear to believe in what is normally seen actually see it as that. Sriram, who I hope is well, doesn't see any difference, and I suspect that is a fairly common vieaw.
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It's amazing not every discussion has to be about disagreement! We must be doing something wrong.
I do wonder if belief in the supernatural is that widespread, or indeed if people who might appear to believe in what is normally seen actually see it as that. Sriram, who I hope is well, doesn't see any difference, and I suspect that is a fairly common vieaw.
I think belief in the supernatural is huge - many people believe in ghosts and psychics and the like. You'll find more magazines featuring Tarot and witchcraft on the shelves of WH Smith and Tesco than you will Christianity. But people with religious belief seem to think that belongs in a different category. Reason? Fact?
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I think belief in the supernatural is huge - many people believe in ghosts and psychics and the like. You'll find more magazines featuring Tarot and witchcraft on the shelves of WH Smith and Tesco than you will Christianity. But people with religious belief seem to think that belongs in a different category. Reason? Fact?
Don't disagree but I don't think that everyone sees a clear and easy difference between natural/supernatural. It's not even clear to me what supernatural means and a lot of it just seems to 'Really amazpeopke when people talk about it. I think it's impossible to generalise at all about what people with religious belief think about it. There are a multitude of views on her amongst our tiny cross section.
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As I have stated many times, I have had many experiences, which appeared to be supernatural when I experienced them, as a child in my family home, and in our previous property, which we sold in 2012. Funnily enough I have never had a religious experience even when I was a Christian. I find that rather strange as religion was a big part of my childhood. I am of the opinion there is a natural explanation for all these sort of experiences, which science will explain eventually, even if it can't do so now.
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As I have stated many times,
"Many, many times..." Dame Beatrice Clissold.
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What about the Eucharist, Steve? Do you believe that is a sacrament that needs to be consecrated?
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What about the Eucharist, Steve? Do you believe that is a sacrament that needs to be consecrated?
No. I think any group of Christians can celebrate it anywhere.
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No. I think any group of Christians can celebrate it anywhere.
That’s interesting. I thought the same back in the day. Not a popular POV I found. But I’m assuming you respect the views of those who do see it as a sacrament? Witchcraft’s no different. It really isn’t.
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That’s interesting. I thought the same back in the day. Not a popular POV I found. But I’m assuming you respect the views of those who do see it as a sacrament? Witchcraft’s no different. It really isn’t.
The Eucharist was first documented by St Paul and in the synoptic gospels. There was no poncey consecration nonsense. They simple took the bread and wine as they had it and performed a simple ceremony with it. It could be argued that the later trappings were added on by the church to try to create a monopoly for its priests.
I think the sacramental stuff might be considered to be similar to a hex, but Christians don't like it when you say that because they like to think their religion is better than everybody else's.
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The Eucharist was first documented by St Paul and in the synoptic gospels. There was no poncey consecration nonsense. They simple took the bread and wine as they had it and performed a simple ceremony with it. It could be argued that the later trappings were added on by the church to try to create a monopoly for its priests.
I think the sacramental stuff might be considered to be similar to a hex, but Christians don't like it when you say that because they like to think their religion is better than everybody else's.
Yes, I know, which is why I took the same position that Steve does now when I was a Christian. But then the church ended up with the Apostolic Succession. The Eucharist is effectively a magic ritual.
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It’s really no different from, say, the Eucharist in that sense. And I say that with respect, as someone who has been on your side of the fence as it were. An atheist may call out witchcraft, but Christianity has no more substance to it.
So do you think there is substance in witchcraft and/or christianity?
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It’s really no different from, say, the Eucharist in that sense. And I say that with respect, as someone who has been on your side of the fence as it were. An atheist may call out witchcraft, but Christianity has no more substance to it.
So...do you think there is substance to witchcraft and/ or christianity?