Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on October 22, 2018, 07:52:39 PM
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This was a question from another poster on another thread so I opened this to prevent inadvertent deflection from the question ''Do hexes work''.
The power behind Christian prayer is of course God.
As CS Lewis said prayer changes us not God.
So no one could try whip up a curse without the knowledge that anything supernatural would have to be through God and to God's specifications and God's three answers to prayer are Yes, no or wait.
The OT has a few examples of prophets who wanted to rain down what not on their enemies and Got peed off with God when he refused.
Can prayer be used as mind gaming? In the long history of Christianity I'm sure some have found a way to pervert it into that.
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What would does it mean that prayers 'work'? How would you test that they work?
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What would does it mean that prayers 'work'? How would you test that they work?
Reaching for a non boring answer, my reply would be that turning your prayer life into an experiment would be like turning your sex life into an experiment.
I suppose I don't see prayer as both or corporate parties being a kind of PEZ dispenser.
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Reaching for a non boring answer, my reply would be that turning your prayer life into an experiment would be like turning your sex life into an experiment.
I suppose I don't see prayer as both or corporate parties being a kind of PEZ dispenser.
This seems to answer some other questions of your own making.
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This seems to answer some other questions of your own making.
Not really you were talking about testing prayer weren't you? and I commented on it.
From my POV this is a case of you not liking the answer.
Did you note the bit where I said prayer, being a personal thing is a change in us through prayer a form of communion with God. God is not a Pez dispenser and I am not praying experimentally.
However I know some folks have sent out ''God if you're there'' prayers and David Watson called his early prayers experimental. These people would call their experimental prayer life succesful.
If you do not believe their experimental findings try your own tests.
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Not really you were talking about testing prayer weren't you? and I commented on it.
From my POV this is a case of you not liking the answer.
Did you note the bit where I said prayer, being a personal thing is a change in us through prayer a form of communion with God. God is not a Pez dispenser and I am not praying experimentally.
However I know some folks have sent out ''God if you're there'' prayers and David Watson called his early prayers experimental. These people would call their experimental prayer life succesful.
If you do not believe their experimental findings try your own tests.
Since you didn't attempt to define what prayer 'works' means, I can't see that the concept of testing can be addressed. There was a reason why I asked the questions in that order.
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Since you didn't attempt to define what prayer 'works' means, I can't see that the concept of testing can be addressed. There was a reason why I asked the questions in that order.
The words 'prayer works' were introduced by you not me so maybe you should have defined the terms.
I did mention that prayer changes us twice and in my first response to your question.
Of course as the hoo har over souls, consciousness, illusion of self etc,shows us defining me or us isn't humanities strong suit and all sorts of aspects of human life apart from spiritual or religion are only now being crudely examined by neuroscience.
However it seems billions have told us that prayer does something to them.
That doesn't help you for they have tried it for themselves.
So it's down to you. You either call argument ad populum on the idea or believe those who say it doesn't work or test it yourself
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The words 'prayer works' were introduced by you not me so maybe you should have defined the terms.
I did mention that prayer changes us twice and in my first response to your question.
Of course as the hoo har over souls, consciousness, illusion of self etc,shows us defining me or us isn't humanities strong suit and all sorts of aspects of human life apart from spiritual or religion are only now being crudely examined by neuroscience.
However it seems billions have told us that prayer does something to them.
That doesn't help you for they have tried it for themselves.
So it's down to you. You either call argument ad populum on the idea or believe those who say it doesn't work or test it yourself
Indeed, I did, carried over from the same comment I made on the hex thread. I put 'work's in inverted commas though to allow for people to answer in as wide a way as possible. If we allow personal statements with no validation methid, then all you have is a collection of individual statements. Anyone else's does not add to your's. It also means that if Owlswing says his spiritual path works for him then your position is that his claim is equally valid to any you make.
Also as ever, different individuals talking about prayers can make different claims. I am happy to look at those individually.
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What would does it mean that prayers 'work'?
...God's three answers to prayer are Yes, no or wait.
So, here's how to tell that prayer works:
- Pray.
- See what happens.
- Whatever it is, call it the answer (because if it's not what you prayed for, it must be that the answer is "no" or "wait").
- Conclude that prayer works.
Simple, eh?
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Indeed, I did, carried over from the same comment I made on the hex thread. I put 'work's in inverted commas though to allow for people to answer in as wide a way as possible. If we allow personal statements with no validation methid, then all you have is a collection of individual statements. Anyone else's does not add to your's. It also means that if Owlswing says his spiritual path works for him then your position is that his claim is equally valid to any you make.
Also as ever, different individuals talking about prayers can make different claims. I am happy to look at those individually.
Owlswing would say that to ascribe or infer any kind of reality to Christian faith is objectionable.
I do not question his claim that his spiritual path works for him.
What I wanted to know is if he really thinks his claims about the hex on Brent Kavanaugh are true.
Does Owlswing really believe that Hexes change other people? Because if he does then he has no business claiming that unlike Christians, his belief is merely a matter of faith.
So it isn't a case of a claim that witchcraft works for Owlswing. More a case of does it work on Brett Kavanaugh.
Here is what Owlswing wrote on the hex on Kavanaugh:
the chances of the hex, in English, the curse, working vary in inverse proportion to the number of people participating directly or indirectly in the casting of said hex. Thr article states that the witch who is casting the hex is doing it in her shop and has had thousands, fifteen thousand I think, offers of help or potential attendees. The chances of getting the pinpoint concentration of purpose and power direction is so remote as to be negligable.
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So, here's how to tell that prayer works:
- Pray.
- See what happens.
- Whatever it is, call it the answer (because if it's not what you prayed for, it must be that the answer is "no" or "wait").
- Conclude that prayer works.
Simple, eh?
Er, that's just petitionary prayer.
If you ask someone for a light what are their 3 possible relevant answers going to be?
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Owlswing would say that to ascribe or infer any kind of reality to Christian faith is objectionable.
I do not question his claim that his spiritual path works for him.
What I wanted to know is if he really thinks his claims about the hex on Brent Kavanaugh are true.
Does Owlswing really believe that Hexes change other people? Because if he does then he has no business claiming that unlike Christians, his belief is merely a matter of faith.
So it isn't a case of a claim that witchcraft works for Owlswing. More a case of does it work on Brett Kavanaugh.
Here is what Owlswing wrote on the hex on Kavanaugh:
the chances of the hex, in English, the curse, working vary in inverse proportion to the number of people participating directly or indirectly in the casting of said hex. Thr article states that the witch who is casting the hex is doing it in her shop and has had thousands, fifteen thousand I think, offers of help or potential attendees. The chances of getting the pinpoint concentration of purpose and power direction is so remote as to be negligable.
The details of what Owlswing and indeed Robbie mean by 'working' is why I asked the question on the hex thread.
Since you ignored the points of my post about the invalidity of claiming other people's experience s as any validation of a true for me claim, am I to assume you accept that?
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The details of what Owlswing and indeed Robbie mean by 'working' is why I asked the question on the hex thread.
Since you ignored the points of my post about the invalidity of claiming other people's experience s as any validation of a true for me claim, am I to assume you accept that?
No sorry, I'm not getting your banter.
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The details of what Owlswing and indeed Robbie mean by 'working' is why I asked the question on the hex thread.
I would have thought that if what Owlswing wrote is an actual claim of the ''working of a hex'' than it is eminently more testable than anything claimed by Christianity.
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I would have thought that if what Owlswing wrote is an actual claim of the ''working of a hex'' than it is eminently more testable than anything claimed by Christianity.
As stated I asked about that claim on the hex tgread. I note you again ignored my point. I don't think Christianity claims anything, I think Christians do, and I will examine their claims as individuals.
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As stated I asked about that claim on the hex tgread.
Do you expect that claim to recieve the same kind of review as, say, Nicholas Mark's claims?
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Do you expect that claim to recieve the same kind of review as, say, Nicholas Mark's claims?
...like the one where he states categorically that the stars are no longer visible at night because of pollution caused by chemtrails from commercial aircraft and that anyone who claims to be able to see the stars at night is actually suffering from hallucinations and/or is one of Satan's henchmen.
That one maybe?
How would you treat such a claim?
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Do you expect that claim to recieve the same kind of review as, say, Nicholas Mark's claims?
From me, yes.
Why have you edited my replies to remove the comments on this thread and just leave those about the hex thread where I point out that I have asked the same questions?
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This was a question from another poster on another thread so I opened this to prevent inadvertent deflection from the question ''Do hexes work''.
The power behind Christian prayer is of course God.
As CS Lewis said prayer changes us not God.
So no one could try whip up a curse without the knowledge that anything supernatural would have to be through God and to God's specifications and God's three answers to prayer are Yes, no or wait.
The OT has a few examples of prophets who wanted to rain down what not on their enemies and Got peed off with God when he refused.
Can prayer be used as mind gaming? In the long history of Christianity I'm sure some have found a way to pervert it into that.
In my opinion, the power behind prayer is BELIEF in god, which sometimes has a placebo effect. This can convince the believer god is answering their prayers.
I have asked this question many times but never had a satisfactory answer. If god exists and can answer prayers, why does it only do so occasionally, when in a good mood? The response that god always answers prayer, but will say 'no; if it is in a person's best interests is laughable. How can it be in a child's best interests not to be cured of a life threatening ailment?
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In my opinion, the power behind prayer is BELIEF in god, which sometimes has a placebo effect. This can convince the believer god is answering their prayers.
I have asked this question many times but never had a satisfactory answer. If god exists and can answer prayers, why does it only do so occasionally, when in a good mood? The response that god always answers prayer, but will say 'no; if it is in a person's best interests is laughable. How can it be in a child's best interests not to be cured of a life threatening ailment?
Our best interest Floo, is eternal unbroken relationship with God.
I can envisage that some who reach a grand old age and die peacefully and celebrated might want eternal separation from God. They cannot complain if that is granted can they?
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Our best interest Floo, is eternal unbroken relationship with God.
I can envisage that some who reach a grand old age and die peacefully and celebrated might want eternal separation from God. They cannot complain if that is granted can they?
As there is no evidence god exists, let alone what is in our best interest if it does, that is a meaningless statement, imo.
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Our best interest Floo, is eternal unbroken relationship with God.
Well, if that were the case and said god exists and wants what was best for us, then why is it hiding its existence from us so effectively?
I can envisage that some who reach a grand old age and die peacefully and celebrated might want eternal separation from God. They cannot complain if that is granted can they?
Again, if one of the many gods that people think exist actually does, then it's more likely that people will go to their graves believing in the wrong god(s) or not believing in any because of the total lack of reasons to take any of them seriously...
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Well, if that were the case and said god exists and wants what was best for us, then why is it hiding its existence from us so effectively?
Again, if one of the many gods that people think exist actually does, then it's more likely that people will go to their graves believing in the wrong god(s) or not believing in any because of the total lack of reasons to take any of them seriously...
Spot on, imo.
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Supposing the Christian God exists, I don't think s/he will condemn to eternal damnation a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or follower of another religion or no religion who follows the best they know as well as they can, and nothing in the Bible says that s/he will. After all, and continuing for now to assume the truth of Christianity for the sake of argument, Christ died for them, whether or not they believe it.
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Supposing the Christian God exists, I don't think s/he will condemn to eternal damnation a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or follower of another religion or no religion who follows the best they know as well as they can, and nothing in the Bible says that s/he will. After all, and continuing for now to assume the truth of Christianity for the sake of argument, Christ died for them, whether or not they believe it.
As no god have ever made its existence apparent beyond all doubt, it would be most unreasonable for those who don't believe in it to be punished for unbelief.
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As no god have ever made its existence apparent beyond all doubt, it would be most unreasonable for those who don't believe in it to be punished for unbelief.
Exactly, but we can always rely on you to put it in an unpleasant, sarky way.
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Supposing the Christian God exists, I don't think s/he will condemn to eternal damnation a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or follower of another religion or no religion who follows the best they know as well as they can, and nothing in the Bible says that s/he will. After all, and continuing for now to assume the truth of Christianity for the sake of argument, Christ died for them, whether or not they believe it.
OK, well that view removes one of the problems with the idea of a Christian god but by no means all of them. It still doesn't explain why this god is so shy. Why hide away? Presumably (assuming the truth of it for the sake of argument) there is some benefit to be had from believing (otherwise why would it bother with any message at all?), so if it wants the best for us, why not make itself obvious to everybody? That's before we get to the seriously bizarre notion of it having to become human and then kill itself horribly in order to forgive us for being what it created...
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Exactly, but we can always rely on you to put it in an unpleasant, sarky way.
It think my comments about the god featured in the Bible are reasonable if what is attributed to it is factual. As for sarky, well dear boy no one can comes close to you when it comes to sarcasm, I reckon you got an A* GCSE in the topic. :P ;D I think you love me really otherwise you would ignore my posts. ;D
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Since you didn't attempt to define what prayer 'works' means, I can't see that the concept of testing can be addressed. There was a reason why I asked the questions in that order.
Prayer works if it makes the person doing the praying feel better.
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Prayer works if it makes the person doing the praying feel better.
Nope, that's you making a definitiin and telling anyine who makes other claims that about what they think prayer does is wrong.
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Nope, that's you making a definitiin and telling anyine who makes other claims that about what they think prayer does is wrong.
Nope. It's me making a definition based on observations of what Christians say it does. I'm not telling anybody making other claims they are wrong. In fact, I don't see anybody else making other claims. What's your definition of prayer working?
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Nope. It's me making a definition based on observations of what Christians say it does. I'm not telling anybody making other claims they are wrong. In fact, I don't see anybody else making other claims. What's your definition of prayer working?
I don't have one. That's why I asked. I like your willingness to use the No True Scotsman fallacy about people who identify as Christians.
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I don't have one.
So why jump on me for filling the void?
I like your willingness to use the No True Scotsman fallacy about people who identify as Christians.
This is you making stuff up again isn't it.
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So why jump on me for filling the void?
This is you making stuff up again isn't it.
Because you don't have justification for making an objective statement about what it means. And no, not making stuff up. It is you making an No True Scotsman fallacy.
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Prayer works if it makes the person doing the praying feel better.
What about petitionary prayer?
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Yeah I'd agree with Jeremy's answer - that is one test of prayer working, if it makes the person praying feel better. I don't think it is the only test but it is one way of testing. I think it's impossible to come up with a single test for prayer working as it depends on what the prayer is and what the person praying hopes to gain from it.
For example - even though I am talking about Muslim prayer here, I imagine it is similar in any faith - sometimes asking for help when you pray, even if you don't get what you asked for, helps you put your situation in a different perspective. For example, I feel like the reminder of God that I get through prayer strengthens my sense of resolve and I perceive my problems as something I can accept with more equanimity and learn from. The actual process of praying - the movements, the verses being recited, my mind taking some time out from my deadlines and being free to ponder ideas about "the meaning of life", whether I have identified with any particular purpose to my life, my relationships, things I have to be thankful for etc - can all have a calming influence and alter my mood.
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Jeremyp has it as the test, not a test and then had it that those who don't think it is the test of prayer for their view of it are wrong. So it's not clear to me that you are agreeing with him.
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Jeremyp has it as the test, not a test and then had it that those who don't think it is the test of prayer for their view of it are wrong. So it's not clear to me that you are agreeing with him.
Ok - I didn't interpret Jeremy's comment the way you did. But getting back to your actual question, some people lose their faith if they pray for something and they don't get it or if the prayer doesn't take away the pain they feel, so maybe one test of a prayer working could be if the person praying doesn't lose their faith after the prayer.
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Ok - I didn't interpret Jeremy's comment the way you did. But getting back to your actual question, some people lose their faith if they pray for something and they don't get it or if the prayer doesn't take away the pain they feel, so maybe one test of a prayer working could be if the person praying doesn't lose their faith after the prayer.
And if someone does lose their faith after praying, as some on here have stated, then that means prayer doesn't work as well. If we take it as purely a subjective statement, then it's effectively worthless beyond tgat. It is purely an individual statement, and has no value beyond the individual. This seems to be at odds with some ideas of prayer, such as Alan's prayer saving him from a parking ticket. The point is surely that any claim that prayer or hexes or wearing lucky socks works needs a definition from the claimant about what they mean by works?
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I agree that if someone loses their faith after prayer you could take that as the prayer not working. I haven't read what Alan says about a prayer saving him from a parking ticket.
But if you are talking about a belief in an interventionist god, then my interpretation is that the belief that an intervention happened is separate from any prayer. The traditions I am familiar with is that god has no need of our prayers so the prayer is a ritual for our benefit in so much as the idea is to influence a change in our perspective and behaviour. Not that this change is guaranteed to happen but I think the idea is supposed to be that you persist and try to be consistent in prayer for the whole of your life as transformation of your perspective can sometimes be quick and sometimes it can be a very slow process.
And even if some kind of transformation happens there are no guarantees that the change will be permanent. But my understanding is that setbacks are ok and it is ok to keep trying. As you say, whether it works or not is a subjective view. I would think it is similar to the idea that therapy or CBT works - I heard a teenager on the radio talking about the Blues Programme - she said she used to feel very anxious, depressed and lonely and was taught techniques to help her manage her anxiety about failing, and she said it had led to her participating in a lot more activities and being more sociable and feeling less lonely and depressed. So for her it worked as she got what she felt were positive outcomes - that is a subjective assessment of her feelings, but you can objectively assess if she has participated in more activities than before. So if you have similar goals you are trying to achieve through prayer, you can similarly measure the outcomes after a period of time of regular prayer.
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I had a problem when I was a child, which seemed serious to me at the time. I prayed and prayed that it would be resolved, but I never had any indication there was any entity listening to my dilemma.
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I had a problem when I was a child, which seemed serious to me at the time. I prayed and prayed that it would be resolved, but I never had any indication there was any entity listening to my dilemma.
Is it still a problem? If not, presumably it was eventually resolved. How do you know that that wasn't in answer to your prayers?
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Is it still a problem? If not, presumably it was eventually resolved. How do you know that that wasn't in answer to your prayers?
I resolved it some years later.
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Because you don't have justification for making an objective statement about what it means. And no, not making stuff up. It is you making an No True Scotsman fallacy.
Nope. No no True Scotsman fallacy. And I did not make an objective statement, I gave a set of criteria for judging whether prayer works, something that nobody else seemed to be bothered to do.
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What about petitionary prayer?
I gave my definition based on the sorts of things that Christians say about prayer. Quite often Christians don't petition God for objective results. If they have some illness, they won't pray to get better but to be given the strength to bear their illness. Even when they do directly ask God for something, if you challenge them about whether their request was granted, they often won't give you a yes or no, but will explain how praying gave them the strength to carry on or told them how to get by without the thing they asked for.
Petitionary prayer can't work in any objective sense, because even if God existed, granting a petitionary prayer would imply that God was going to let something bad happen unless somebody prayed to him. Petitionary prayer working is logically incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.
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I gave my definition based on the sorts of things that Christians say about prayer. Quite often Christians don't petition God for objective results. If they have some illness, they won't pray to get better but to be given the strength to bear their illness. Even when they do directly ask God for something, if you challenge them about whether their request was granted, they often won't give you a yes or no, but will explain how praying gave them the strength to carry on or told them how to get by without the thing they asked for.
Petitionary prayer can't work in any objective sense, because even if God existed, granting a petitionary prayer would imply that God was going to let something bad happen unless somebody prayed to him. Petitionary prayer working is logically incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.
Which is one view of petitionary prayer for sickness - healing, if you like, rather than cure. But I've also come across the belief that prayer for healing should cure physical illness if the person has enough faith. Once instance I know of involved a group prayer for a woman with MS. Her friends expected her to show up at church walking. When she didn't, they turned on her because she 'must have unrepented sin'.
I agree that petitionary prayer makes no sense - 'save my loved one' is horrendous when you think of the loved ones that don't get saved - but plenty of people carry it out and believe in it. There have even been experiments done to show the outcomes for patients that have been prayed for over those that haven't. You and I may see the illogic in that, but there are Christians out there who like the exclusivity.
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Petitionary prayer working is logically incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.
So is sickness, natural disasters, a god that we need to believe in to be "saved" who hides its existence, and, well, the world as it is, basically. Since when has logical consistency had anything to do with religious faith?
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Since when has logical consistency had anything to do with religious faith?
I don't believe I ever said it did. There are any number of reasons why the Christian conception of God is logically incoherent, but we are focusing on prayer here.
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Petitionary prayer working is logically incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.
Depends what you mean by omnipotent and omniscient, but I'm not starting that discussion again. My thread on the subject was sabotaged and derailed by one member here with non-stop, laboured sarcasm, and a few deliberate insults, despite the obvious fact that he had not begun to understand my arguments.
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I had a problem when I was a child, which seemed serious to me at the time. I prayed and prayed that it would be resolved, but I never had any indication there was any entity listening to my dilemma.
My understanding of prayer in Islam is that you pray to change yourself - your outlook, reaction, resilience to difficulties etc. There is nothing stopping you praying for intervention as well as that could help strengthen your perception of connection to something spiritual / supernatural or deepen your faith, but my understanding is that Islam is about submission to god's will as opposed to a god submitting to your prayers and intervening because you prayed really, really hard.
Though praying really, really hard is one way of passing time - it's something to do when you feel helpless when you have done all you can do and you could view it as having tried everything, including the supernatural. And praying maybe helps you work through your emotions, get things off your chest by having a conversation in your head, or it could help you let go of some of the stress of trying to think you can control outcomes by placing your trust and hope in something other than yourself that is supernatural/ all-knowing etc
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My understanding of prayer in Islam is that you pray to change yourself - your outlook, reaction, resilience to difficulties etc. There is nothing stopping you praying for intervention as well as that could help strengthen your perception of connection to something spiritual / supernatural or deepen your faith, but my understanding is that Islam is about submission to god's will as opposed to a god submitting to your prayers and intervening because you prayed really, really hard.
Though praying really, really hard is one way of passing time - it's something to do when you feel helpless when youagree have done all you can do and you could view it as having tried everything, including the supernatural. And praying maybe helps you work through your emotions, get things off your chest by having a conversation in your head, or it could help you let go of some of the stress of trying to think you can control outcomes by placing your trust and hope in something other than yourself that is supernatural/ all-knowing etc
I agree completely. As a life-long atheist, I have often prayed when there was nothing else I could do. When my daughter was on life-support and the doctors told me to bring my family up because she wasn't going to last the night, I prayed my heart out.
I have been called a hypocrite and ungrateful to God, because although she survived and is now a wife and mother 20 years later, I didn't become one of the Faithful. It's because I realise it was nothing to do with the praying, it was the work of the medical staff at the hospital. The praying was my way of coping with the trauma.
When a plane is crashing, diving towards the sea, I'll guarantee everyone on board, whether atheist or believer, knowing there is no way of doing anything about it, is praying just as hard as I did that night.
,
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I agree completely. As a life-long atheist, I have often prayed when there was nothing else I could do. When my daughter was on life-support and the doctors told me to bring my family up because she wasn't going to last the night, I prayed my heart out.
I have been called a hypocrite and ungrateful to God, because although she survived and is now a wife and mother 20 years later, I didn't become one of the Faithful. It's because I realise it was nothing to do with the praying, it was the work of the medical staff at the hospital. The praying was my way of coping with the trauma.
When a plane is crashing, diving towards the sea, I'll guarantee everyone on board, whether atheist or believer, knowing there is no way of doing anything about it, is praying just as hard as I did that night.
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You are wrong
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You are wrong
Wrong about what?
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Wrong about what?
'When a plane is crashing, diving towards the sea, I'll guarantee everyone on board, whether atheist or believer, knowing there is no way of doing anything about it, is praying just as hard as I did that night.'
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'When a plane is crashing, diving towards the sea, I'll guarantee everyone on board, whether atheist or believer, knowing there is no way of doing anything about it, is praying just as hard as I did that night.'
Unless we have been in that sort of terrible situation we can't say for sure how we would react.
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The power behind Christian prayer is of course God.
No it is not! It is the faith that Christians have that their God exists despite there being not one iota of proof for said existence.
So no one could try whip up a curse without the knowledge that anything supernatural would have to be through God and to God's specifications and God's three answers to prayer are Yes, no or wait.
I spent ten years praying to the Christian God before I gave up having got not one single "Yes".
Can prayer be used as mind gaming? In the long history of Christianity I'm sure some have found a way to pervert it into that.
All organised religion is a mind frame!
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No it is not! It is the faith that Christians have that their God exists despite there being not one iota of proof for said existence.
I spent ten years praying to the Christian God before I gave up having got not one single "Yes".
All organised religion is a mind fame!
So between this post and your comments on cursing Brett Kavanaugh....
You have more supernatural power in your little finger than there is in the whole of Christianity?
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When a plane is crashing, diving towards the sea, I'll guarantee everyone on board, whether atheist or believer, knowing there is no way of doing anything about it, is praying just as hard as I did that night.
How can you guarantee that?
[Edited to credit the right person for the quote.]
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So between this post and your comments on cursing Brett Kavanaugh....
You have more supernatural power in your little finger than there is in the whole of Christianity?
I thought you were a newly-returned poster who'd been away a long time, until I recognised your signature, Vlad the sexually fluid.
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I'm still utterly surprised as to why ANYONE would want to associate themselves or trust in a creature that ignores plights & suffering in a world it made such a bollox of ?!??!?
Nick
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So between this post and your comments on cursing Brett Kavanaugh....
You have more supernatural power in your little finger than there is in the whole of Christianity?
No! But I do have as much gaith im my Gods and Goddesses as Christians have in their God