Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Roses on November 28, 2018, 02:02:29 PM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-46368991
This case is more than shocking. :o The law needs changing immediately, if a rapist is able to have access to the child he has spawned, in this case after raping a girl when she was 15! >:(
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I agree, but hard cases make bad law. This is a shocking exception to the general rule, which is being investigated.
BTW, there is nothing "more than shocking". You probably mean "very shocking", but that is still shocking. That's what happens when you use cliches: you sometimes end up writing nonsense.
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I agree, but hard cases make bad law. This is a shocking exception to the general rule, which is being investigated.
BTW, there is nothing "more than shocking". You probably mean "very shocking", but that is still shocking. That's what happens when you use cliches: you sometimes end up writing nonsense.
Oh for pity's sake Steve, you can't help having a go at me even when we are in general agreement, it is getting rather tedious. And no I shouldn't respond to your jibes. :-[
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Oh for pity's sake Steve, you can't help having a go at me even when we are in general agreement, it is getting rather tedious. And no I shouldn't respond to your jibes. :-[
You're right. Mea culpa. I was wrong about "more than": very shocking is more than shocking. I was thinking of that tiresome expression "beyond", as in "beyond shocking", "beyond tragic", etc.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-46368991
This case is more than shocking. :o The law needs changing immediately, if a rapist is able to have access to the child he has spawned, in this case after raping a girl when she was 15! >:(
Agreed. It's just retraumatising the victim. Whoever thought it was a good idea should get the sack.
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Family courts specialise in retraumatising victims in cases where an abuser has parental responsibility. What happened to the mother is largely regarded as irrelevant. And because they are held in secret and victims can't speak out it goes largely unchallenged.
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Agreed. It's just retraumatising the victim. Whoever thought it was a good idea should get the sack.
Social workers employed by Rotherham Council apparently.
Presumably there is some kind of politically-correct view that both parents should always be engaged with their children. How someone whose only contact with the child's mother was an aggressive act intended to humiliate, insult, hurt and subjugate her can achieve such engagement is beyond me.
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I think the victim of this rape was very brave to speak out, and bring this dangerous stupidity to public attention.
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I think the victim of this rape was very brave to speak out, and bring this dangerous stupidity to public attention.
Yes tho' I wouldn't want my child, if I went as far as having him or her, to know they were conceived from rape. Controversial view maybe but how I feel, not the mother's nor the child's fault of course.
Beyond awful imo but unfortunately does happen occasionally.
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Yes tho' I wouldn't want my child, if I went as far as having him or her, to know they were conceived from rape. Controversial view maybe but how I feel, not the mother's nor the child's fault of course.
Beyond awful imo but unfortunately does happen occasionally.
What to tell a child in these circumstances must be extremely difficult. If a story is concocted and they later on discover the truth, which is quite likely, it could damage the mother's relationship with her offspring. Either way the situation is likely to be traumatic, which is why I suspect many women are likely to terminate a pregnancy, which is the result of being raped.
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Who could blame them? I wouldn't.
In the 'old days' women just gave their babies up for adoption, quite reasonable, not so easy now.
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Who could blame them? I wouldn't.
In the 'old days' women just gave their babies up for adoption, quite reasonable, not so easy now.
She has publicly said that she loves her son. Remember, she was groomed by this man over a long time and she has even spoken of having feelings of gratitude to him in the past because she has her son.
We are complicated creatures and I think it devalues this woman as a mother to say that it would have been more reasonable for her to give him up for adoption.
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Beyond awful
::)
See my previous post.
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There was also a case in Wales recently where the children were victims of abuse and the father was still able try and dictate things like what schools they went to and where they lived from his prison cell because he had joint parental responsibility.
In these cases I wonder about the solicitors who will take the coin of such people.
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There was also a case in Wales recently where the children were victims of abuse and the father was still able try and dictate things like what schools they went to and where they lived from his prison cell because he had joint parental responsibility.
In these cases I wonder about the solicitors who will take the coin of such people.
I remember that case which was well beyond shocking and awful. >:(
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::)
See my previous post.
I did.
She has publicly said that she loves her son. Remember, she was groomed by this man over a long time and she has even spoken of having feelings of gratitude to him in the past because she has her son.
We are complicated creatures and I think it devalues this woman as a mother to say that it would have been more reasonable for her to give him up for adoption.
Yes, people love their children regardless. None of us know what we might have done in same circumstances. We cannot judge them but I think most of us on here haven't had to.
My feeling is I would not have a child conceived in rape but it is not about me, didn't happen thankfully (could have), but people do and the child is born innocent. Better they never know. There are books written by women who have loved and brought up children born out of rape. Brave mothers but what effect does that have on the child? Especially children being publicised in that way. I don't know, being honest here. Really don't know what I would have done. Some other posters on here may be have more to say. I do believe every child is born with a clean slate.
One important thing is not to blame and to have confidentiality.
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I did.
Yes, people love their children regardless. None of us know what we might have done in same circumstances. We cannot judge them but I think most of us on here haven't had to.
My feeling is I would not have a child conceived in rape but it is not about me, didn't happen thankfully (could have), but people do and the child is born innocent. Better they never know. There are books written by women who have loved and brought up children born out of rape. Brave mothers but what effect does that have on the child? Especially children being publicised in that way. I don't know, being honest here. Really don't know what I would have done. Some other posters on here may be have more to say. I do believe every child is born with a clean slate.
One important thing is not to blame and to have confidentiality.
But they don't stay children forever, it would be strange if they didn't ask questions about their parentage. They are likely to discover the truth, especially these days, thanks to the Internet. However painful, it is best to tell them the truth, in an age appropriate way, as soon as they start asking questions.
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In these cases I wonder about the solicitors who will take the coin of such people.
It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it. Everybody has a right to legal representation.
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But they don't stay children forever, it would be strange if they didn't ask questions about their parentage. They are likely to discover the truth, especially these days, thanks to the Internet. However painful, it is best to tell them the truth, in an age appropriate way, as soon as they start asking questions.
With the important proviso "in an age-appropriate way", maybe, but I think it's probably best just to say that their father left their mother and wasn't a nice man until they're adults. Still, a wise and thoughtful post from someone I often lock horns with - credit where it's due, and all that.
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With the important proviso "in an age-appropriate way", maybe, but I think it's probably best just to say that their father left their mother and wasn't a nice man until they're adults. Still, a wise and thoughtful post from someone I often lock horns with - credit where it's due, and all that.
Thank you. :)
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46387043
Another shocking story. >:(
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46387043
Another shocking story. >:(
This doesn't surprise me one single bit. Social workers take the line that a relationship with an abusive parent is better than no relationship. Note, thus isn't a male/female thing. The courts favour abusers of either gender.
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It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it. Everybody has a right to legal representation.
Except there are ethics around re-traumatising a rape victim in court, surely? I know my brief doesn't take on this work. The people that do are those who get a kick out of hurting abused people. From what I can gather.
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But they don't stay children forever, it would be strange if they didn't ask questions about their parentage. They are likely to discover the truth, especially these days, thanks to the Internet. However painful, it is best to tell them the truth, in an age appropriate way, as soon as they start asking questions.
I agree with this. It's possible to tell a child that their dad wasn't a nice person but that they aren't their dad and it says nothing about them. And that their mum chose to keep them because they are loved.
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The courts favour abusers of either gender.
Not in the case Little Roses' most recent link describes: "a court order now prevents the man from contacting them". Of course, it's a bit of an indictment that it ever had to come to court: he had child abuse images on his computer. It's also a bit of an indictment that, once it came to court, the mother "really had to fight". It should have been an open and shut case.
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Except there are ethics around re-traumatising a rape victim in court, surely?
I was merely making the point that everybody deserves access to legal representation and and therefore there must be some lawyers prepared to "take their coin".
The people that do are those who get a kick out of hurting abused people
What do you do if you are accused of rape and you need a legal defence, if no lawyer is prepared to take your case?
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I was merely making the point that everybody deserves access to legal representation and and therefore there must be some lawyers prepared to "take their coin".
What do you do if you are accused of rape and you need a legal defence, if no lawyer is prepared to take your case?
Defend yourself. Since legal aid has been cut from family proceedings most single mothers have to represent themselves in court. Even legal aid for abuse victims is strictly means tested. If they can be expected to do so given the incredibly high stakes then I don't see why a rapist shouldn't. But never fear, Jeremy, because there are plenty of lawyers prepared to drag a woman's reputation through the mud in every conceivable way in order to get their clients off the hook. Family lawyers prepared to do the work for free are thinner on the ground.
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Defend yourself. Since legal aid has been cut from family proceedings most single mothers have to represent themselves in court. Even legal aid for abuse victims is strictly means tested. If they can be expected to do so given the incredibly high stakes then I don't see why a rapist shouldn't. But never fear, Jeremy, because there are plenty of lawyers prepared to drag a woman's reputation through the mud in every conceivable way in order to get their clients off the hook. Family lawyers prepared to do the work for free are thinner on the ground.
It is not unknown for women to make false rape accusations, and men accused of it deserve proper legal defence. Your feminism-by-numbers is getting increasingly tiresome.
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It is not unknown for women to make false rape accusations, and men accused of it deserve proper legal defence. Your feminism-by-numbers is getting increasingly tiresome.
Do you know how many false accusations are made? It's 4%. In a category of crime that is already woefully under reported.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/false-sexual-violence-assault-rape-allegations-truth-rare-international-day-for-the-elimination-of-a8077876.html
It isn't 'feminism by numbers' it is fucking anger at the way men take and take and take. I've been raped, and no I didn't report it, because what is the fucking point when people have the attitude that you do, I've been abused and you have the fucking cheek to patronise me when you know fuck all about what you are talking about. You are a stain on your faith.
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It is not unknown for women to make false rape accusations, and men accused of it deserve proper legal defence. Your feminism-by-numbers is getting increasingly tiresome.
A very small number compared to the number of men who get away with molesting women. >:(
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A very small number compared to the number of men who get away with molesting women. >:(
Quite. You know what is ready sad? Just about every woman I know has her story - I think those of us that post on here have all shared something - and with my girls becoming young women I've realised that the best that I can hope for them is that the sexual assaults and abuse that they encounter won't be too bad, that they won't get lasting damage, that they can file it away with a shrug. Because it will happen. Just this week my eldest had to report sexual harassment at her school and tell the truth, I'm fearful that it will escalate. This is life if you are female.
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Quite. You know what is ready sad? Just about every woman I know has her story - I think those of us that post on here have all shared something - and with my girls becoming young women I've realised that the best that I can hope for them is that the sexual assaults and abuse that they encounter won't be too bad, that they won't get lasting damage, that they can file it away with a shrug. Because it will happen. Just this week my eldest had to report sexual harassment at her school and tell the truth, I'm fearful that it will escalate. This is life if you are female.
No doubt someone will accuse me of being sexist, but I guess the number of men sexually harassed and assaulted by women is tiny in comparison.
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No doubt someone will accuse me of being sexist, but I guess the number of men sexually harassed and assaulted by women is tiny in comparison.
I think men suffer from the toxic masculinity that makes then hurt each other. And I know that men are the victims of domestic abuse just as much as women are, although they are far less likely to be killed by a partner. But is isn't feminist bullshitterry to point out that sexual harassment and assault and men thinking that they can say and take what they want when it comes to women' bodies is a fact of life. It's just the truth.
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What is toxic masculity? Genuine question. Never heard the term before.
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The fact remains that women do sometimes make false accusations of rape, and men accused of it are as entitled to the presumption of innocence as anyone else. If an accused man pleads not guilty and puts his accuser through the ordeal of defending her accusation in court, and is eventually found guilty, his not-guilty plea and his insistence on the woman being questioned will be taken into account when he is sentenced, and his jail term will be significantly longer than it would have been if he'd pleaded guilty and spared her some of the ordeal. The presumption of innocence is a vital part of a fair legal system, and should not be undermined.
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What is toxic masculity?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45908983
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No doubt someone will accuse me of being sexist, but I guess the number of men sexually harassed and assaulted by women is tiny in comparison.
I'm sure you're right, but what's that to the purpose?
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I'm sure you're right, but what's that to the purpose?
Most women will have experienced some form of sexual harassment, if not worse.
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Most women will have experienced some form of sexual harassment, if not worse.
and...? I don't suppose anyone on this board will argue, but it's not really relevant to questions about the legal treatment of rapists and their victims.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45908983
Cheers.
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The fact remains that women do sometimes make false accusations of rape, and men accused of it are as entitled to the presumption of innocence as anyone else. If an accused man pleads not guilty and puts his accuser through the ordeal of defending her accusation in court, and is eventually found guilty, his not-guilty plea and his insistence on the woman being questioned will be taken into account when he is sentenced, and his jail term will be significantly longer than it would have been if he'd pleaded guilty and spared her some of the ordeal. The presumption of innocence is a vital part of a fair legal system, and should not be undermined.
You know that rape victims aren't assumed to be innocent? That she 'led him on', has freely has sex before, was drunk, wore certain underwear...
Nobody is saying that there should be an end to a presumption of innocence. Shame that rape victims don't get that. Shame that abuse victims don't get a fair hearing in the family court and have to represent themselves.
Shame that 85% of rapes never get reported. Shame that every three days a woman is murdered by her partner or ex partner. Shame that over a hundred kids a year are murdered by their fathers as a form of abuse of the mother.
Feminism by numbers. Steve? What's the fucking point.
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and...? I don't suppose anyone on this board will argue, but it's not really relevant to questions about the legal treatment of rapists and their victims.
Well I think it is.
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You know that rape victims aren't assumed to be innocent? That she 'led him on', has freely has sex before, was drunk, wore certain underwear...
Nobody is saying that there should be an end to a presumption of innocence. Shame that rape victims don't get that. Shame that abuse victims don't get a fair hearing in the family court and have to represent themselves.
Shame that 85% of rapes never get reported. Shame that every three days a woman is murdered by her partner or ex partner. Shame that over a hundred kids a year are murdered by their fathers as a form of abuse of the mother.
Feminism by numbers. Steve? What's the fucking point.
Unfortunately, the obvious defence in a rape case is that the woman consented, so it's hard to see how that can be avoided, if the accused is to defend himself properly. I repeat that if the defendant pleads not guilty and puts his victim through the ordeal of cross-questioning, and is eventually found guilty, he gets a significantly more severe sentence than he would have done if he'd pleaded guilty in the first place, and quite right too.
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Unfortunately, the obvious defence in a rape case is that the woman consented, so it's hard to see how that can be avoided, if the accused is to defend himself properly. I repeat that if the defendant pleads not guilty and puts his victim through the ordeal of cross-questioning, and is eventually found guilty, he gets a significantly more severe sentence than he would have done if he'd pleaded guilty in the first place, and quite right too.
'Consent' isn't signalled by her previous sexual history, or whatever she was wearing, and if she was drunk then the likelihood is that she didn't consent. Actually what the defence does in these cases is insinuate that she was asking for it and therefore is culpable just because of where she was, at what time, or for how she was dressed or what her past is. I have had a number of men that I have spoken to tell me quite clearly that if a woman dresses a certain way and then gets raped she only has herself to blame. Another actually said to me that he doesn't believe that rapes happen that often because it's impossible to penetrate a woman that is kicking and screaming. And these aren't nasty sex offenders, just ordinary blokes who don't have the first clue. But these are the people who make up juries and a re-victimised and re-traumatised victim may very well not see justice. I wouldn't advise any woman to report a rape, certainly not where they know their attacker. It is highly unlikely that you will get justice and it isn't worth the trauma.
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I think women should report being raped, not to do so is going to encourage the rapist to continue to abuse them and others.
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I think women should report being raped, not to do so is going to encourage the rapist to continue to abuse them and others.
That's callous, untrue and unfair.
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That's callous, untrue and unfair.
Why is that untrue?
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-46368991
This case is more than shocking. :o The law needs changing immediately, if a rapist is able to have access to the child he has spawned, in this case after raping a girl when she was 15! >:(
How does a child molester become a good advocate for parenting a child born out of his criminal acts and depraved way of life.
SORRY is not enough nor re-addressing the actions already taken., A child who is conceived through rape should be spared the knowledge of who the father was by not allowing them to be put on birth certificates and allowing no knowledge to kept about him that a child could ever find. In fact a motion should be carried in Government that the law is changed so that man cannot access information on the child and vice versa and a life long injunction stopping him contacting the child or coming into his presence in childhood. As an adult the child is free to choose. Adult I mean 25 years minimum
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Why is that untrue?
This is why. Even if you report a rape the odds are that the rapist will get away with it. It deters nothing.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/only-one-rape-every-14-11323783
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This is why. Even if you report a rape the odds are that the rapist will get away with it. It deters nothing.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/only-one-rape-every-14-11323783
Even if that is true it should still be reported, imo.
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Even if that is true it should still be reported, imo.
Do you know what happens when you report a rape?
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Do you know what happens when you report a rape?
However unpleasant, it has to be done, imo. I would always report a crime, even if my dearest and dearest were the perpetrators, not to do so is aiding and abetting a criminal, imo.
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However unpleasant, it has to be done, imo. I would always report a crime, even if my dearest and dearest were the perpetrators, not to do so is aiding and abetting a criminal, imo.
Like I said. Callous.
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Like I said. Callous.
Callous or not, it is the right thing to do. Anyway you and I will have to agree to differ, you don't see it my way, and I certainly don't see it your way.
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Something I only learned recently from a key worker in the field is that women - and men too presumably - who go to court as victims of rape are strongly discouraged from accepting counselling about the rape until the trial is over as the defence can use it to discredit the victim. It may even be a reason for a case to be dropped.
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Callous or not, it is the right thing to do. Anyway you and I will have to agree to differ, you don't see it my way, and I certainly don't see it your way.
I don't have to agree with anything. You are blaming victims for being too fearful, ashamed or traumatised to go through more trauma and shaming. It's disgusting.
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However unpleasant, it has to be done, imo. I would always report a crime, even if my dearest and dearest were the perpetrators, not to do so is aiding and abetting a criminal, imo.
Really?
Would you have reported gay people prior to 1967? Would you report a mother stealing to feed children? Would you report a drunk in charge of a bicycle (yes this is a crime)?
I suggest we all, in some circumstances, decide that discretion is the better part of valour justice.
Either that or we are cold blooded, unfeeling people who are incapable of any kind of empathy.
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Being drunk in charge of a bicycle ought to be a crime (assuming you mean actually riding it).
I don't know what to think between Rhiannon and LR, to be honest. I can see both their points of view.
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Defend yourself. Since legal aid has been cut from family proceedings most single mothers have to represent themselves in court. Even legal aid for abuse victims is strictly means tested. If they can be expected to do so given the incredibly high stakes then I don't see why a rapist shouldn't. But never fear, Jeremy, because there are plenty of lawyers prepared to drag a woman's reputation through the mud in every conceivable way in order to get their clients off the hook. Family lawyers prepared to do the work for free are thinner on the ground.
You make a very strong argument that the legal aid system is not fit for purpose and treats poor people very unfairly but not that anybody should be denied legal representation.
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'Consent' isn't signalled by her previous sexual history, or whatever she was wearing, and if she was drunk then the likelihood is that she didn't consent.
I completely agree. As a rule, we don't allow the jury to know the previous convictions of the accused because they are supposed to try the case based on the facts of the case alone. I find it odd that we don't extend the same courtesy to rape victims with respect to their sexual history.
I have had a number of men that I have spoken to tell me quite clearly that if a woman dresses a certain way and then gets raped she only has herself to blame. Another actually said to me that he doesn't believe that rapes happen that often because it's impossible to penetrate a woman that is kicking and screaming.
That's not my view nor the view of anybody I know, male or female, at least I hope not.
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You make a very strong argument that the legal aid system is not fit for purpose and treats poor people very unfairly but not that anybody should be denied legal representation.
I'm not arguing that anyone should be denied legal representation. I'm just disgusted with the morality of some lawyers. There are some very clear cases in both criminal and family courts where lawyers take the money of those who are pretty disgusting human beings and who are using the courts to hurt others. There are also lawyers who enjoy being a part of that process. It'd be nice to think that there are some cases that lawyers would find too repulsive to touch (the man who sexually abused his children using the courts to re-abuse his family for example) but that isn't so and it's just how it is. I've been told by an insider that law attracts narcissists tat aren't hugely dissimilar to those that they represent.
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That's not my view nor the view of anybody I know, male or female, at least I hope not.
I'm surprised how often I come across it. It's sad.
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Being drunk in charge of a bicycle ought to be a crime (assuming you mean actually riding it).
I don't know what to think between Rhiannon and LR, to be honest. I can see both their points of view.
If reporting a rape was likely to secure a conviction and if it would be handled well by those in authority then LR may - may - have a point. But so few reported cases make it to court, let alone end up with a conviction. A victim will be questioned on every aspect of their lives - whether they have casual sex, have ever had an STI, or an abortion. They will be treated with suspicion at every turn in a way that doesn't happen if you were reporting a robbery or other property crime. They will be told not to accept help for their trauma until after the case has ended. And if the rape was recent then they will be told to undress, they will be subjected to internal examinations and photographed. They will not be allowed to shower or put other clothes on until all those procedures have been completed and that may take hours. If they choose to shower first or wait to heal then the evidence is weaker. Most cases get dropped though lack of evidence or because the victim has had enough of being re-traumatised. If they do make it to court then there is a whole new lot of trauma to face and every aspect of their lives will be picked over by the defence.
I admire the courage of every woman and man who goes through that. But I do not blame anyone who decides that the odds are stacked against them and it isn't worth the additional pain and trauma.
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A crime has to be reported immediately...especially sexual assault because forensics need to process the evidence and ensure it is there to aid prosecution.
But if we deliberately overlook and ignore such evidence then conviction is harder to attain.
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Like I said. Callous.
I don't completely agree with LR about always reporting crime (no change there, then...) but why is her opinion callous?
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I don't completely agree with LR about always reporting crime (no change there, then...) but why is her opinion callous?
Because she is showing no awareness or empathy for the fact that reporting a crime adds (often pointless) suffering on top of the suffering already endured, she is blaming them for 'not doing their duty' or some such shit, and she is also blaming victims for the crimes that their rapist may go on to commit. I got into my rapist's car and I froze when it happened. What is the point in reporting that? I wouldn't get past the front desk.
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Oh for goodness sakes Rhi, stop making all this so personal. Not the first time.
As it happens I agree with you on this issue but I wouldn't advertise my own experiences.
By now you should also realise LR has no clue, sees everything in black and white unless it's an issue of which she has experience - I hope she never does have personal experience; Steven is speaking objectively.
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Oh for goodness sakes Rhi, stop making all this so personal. Not the first time.
As it happens I agree with you on this issue but I wouldn't advertise my own experiences.
By now you should also realise LR has no clue, sees everything in black and white unless it's an issue of which she has experience - I hope she never does have personal experience; Steven is speaking objectively.
Seriously?
I'm trying to use my experience to illustrate a point. Because who else will here? If we don't use personal experience then its just hypothetical waffle and there's no reason why Steve or anyone else should listen. Voices need to be heard. Of all the people who I thought would accuse me of playing the victim it wasn't you. Women shouldn't try to silence other women. That's just nasty.
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You know what? Fuck this place.
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Oh for goodness sakes Rhi, stop making all this so personal. Not the first time.
As it happens I agree with you on this issue but I wouldn't advertise my own experiences.
By now you should also realise LR has no clue, sees everything in black and white unless it's an issue of which she has experience - I hope she never does have personal experience; Steven is speaking objectively.
I know all about sexual assault from personal experience. I was inappropriately touched by the pastor of the church I attended when I was 14. I reported it to my parents but they didn't wish to believe it too be true. When I was 18 an uncle by marriage, who was naked, dragged me into his bedroom, pushed me onto the bed, and tried to raped me. I kicked him so hard where it hurt, he even apologised. >:( I told my father, who believed me, he and his brothers sorted him out, he never tried to assault me again.
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I am sorry Little Roses. I remember you saying about the pastor once before. Glad your dad and his brothers sorted out that uncle, horrible experience.
Please accept my apology.
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I am sorry Little Roses. I remember you saying about the pastor once before. Glad your dad and his brothers sorted out that uncle, horrible experience.
Please accept my apology.
Thanks Robbie :), I have amended my previous post. :-[
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That was kind, thank you.