Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Sriram on December 19, 2018, 05:43:18 AM
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Hi everyone,
In my opinion, what we call God is the highest level of Consciousness. This Consciousness can be accessed and found from within ourselves. Most spiritual traditions emphasize the same thing.
According to certain Hindu philosophies our individual consciousness is just a part of the whole and we all are essentially and ultimately the same one level of Consciousness. Realizing this is considered as the ultimate goal for each of us. Yoga and Vedanta teach this philosophy.
To achieve this, we needs religions, prayers and rituals and various images of God.
As I have mentioned in other threads, many recent philosophers and scientists seem to be moving towards a similar idea of Panpsychism wherein Consciousness forms the basis and the physical world is an outcome of that.
(copied from post 72 of 'The Soul' thread)....Freud on the power of the Unconscious, Jung on the collective unconscious, the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM, Wheeler on Participatory Anthropic Principle, Chalmers on Panpsychism, Toroni on Integrated Information theory, Eagleman on the Unconscious mind.....and many others....point to the above.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Hi everyone,
In my opinion, what we call God is the highest level of Consciousness. This Consciousness can be accessed and found from within ourselves. Most spiritual traditions emphasize the same thing.
According to certain Hindu philosophies our individual consciousness is just a part of the whole and we all are essentially and ultimately the same one level of Consciousness. Realizing this is considered as the ultimate goal for each of us. Yoga and Vedanta teach this philosophy.
To achieve this, we needs religions, prayers and rituals and various images of God.
As I have mentioned in other threads, many recent philosophers and scientists seem to be moving towards a similar idea of Panpsychism wherein Consciousness forms the basis and the physical world is an outcome of that.
(copied from post 72 of 'The Soul' thread)....Freud on the power of the Unconscious, Jung on the collective unconscious, the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM, Wheeler on Participatory Anthropic Principle, Chalmers on Panpsychism, Toroni on Integrated Information theory, Eagleman on the Unconscious mind.....and many others....point to the above.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers.
Sriram
What do you mean by levels of consciousness?
Why use the word God for the highest level?
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Sriram, your thread doesn't make much sense to me.
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Sriram, your thread doesn't make much sense to me.
That makes it a candidate for making a lot of sense.
Yellow smiling chaps and hysterical cackling all round.
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That makes it a candidate for making a lot of sense.
Yellow smiling chaps and hysterical cackling all round.
You are taking too little water with it. ::) ;D
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You are taking too little water with it. ::) ;D
Just pulling your legđđđ
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Sriram, your thread doesn't make much sense to me.
Nor me. Well-meaning, but hopelessly airy-fairy.
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What do you mean by levels of consciousness?
Why use the word God for the highest level?
What do you understand by the statement....'the kingdom of God is within you'..?!
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What do you understand by the statement....'the kingdom of God is within you'..?!
Meaningless.
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What do you understand by the statement....'the kingdom of God is within you'..?!
The Kingdom of God is not a measurable material entity but is accessed at the existial level.
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The Kingdom of God is not a measurable material entity but is accessed at the existial level.
I agree if you mean 'existential', as there is no evidence to verify the existence of god, its so called 'kingdom' is not measurable as it probably doesn't exist.
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I agree if you mean 'existential', as there is no evidence to verify the existence of god, its so called 'kingdom' is not measurable as it probably doesn't exist.
What is the probability show your working out thank you?
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What is the probability show your working out thank you?
As god appears to be a character created by the human imagination, its existence is as credible as that of fairies (which some people claim to exist). As had been asked so many times, if god exists why does it hide away?
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As god appears to be a character created by the human imagination, its existence is as credible as that of fairies (which some people claim to exist). As had been asked so many times, if god exists why does it hide away?
Show your working out here.....thank you.
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The Kingdom of God is not a measurable material entity but is accessed at the existial level.
Sounds like a positive statement.
Show your working, method of access and success rates please?
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Sounds like a positive statement.
Show your working, method of access and success rates please?
People who start going on about God either somehow manage to make this inward journey of reflection to find they exist as a self and are no longer defined by any philosophy or able to hide behind a given argument or socially acquired agnosticism or they are brought to that point either by circumstances or encounter.
It isnt possible to get to that point by mere run of the mill thinking where there is no spectrum of value.
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Show your working out here.....thank you.
My experience of being a Christian has led me to that conclusion, I never had any indication god existed even when I believed in it.
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The Kingdom of God is not a measurable material entity but is accessed at the existial level.
As we continue to pray to God we realize at one stage that we are in reality praying to a part of ourselves and that much of the solace and blessing is coming to us from within.
This is when we realize that truly...God is within...! Then understanding it is a philosophical matter and progressing further becomes Yoga.
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My experience of being a Christian has led me to that conclusion, I never had any indication god existed even when I believed in it.
My socially acquired agnostic atheism fell apart as I reflected more.
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My socially acquired agnostic atheism fell apart as I reflected more.
Well it was the other way round for me.
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My socially acquired agnostic atheism fell apart as I reflected more.
What reflections caused that, exactly?
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What reflections caused that, exactly?
That there is more going on in people than science or society are actually interested in.
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That there is more going on in people than science or society are actually interested in.
Such as? And what has that got to do with agnostic atheism?
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Such as? And what has that got to do with agnostic atheism?
I think ill let you reflect on that but suffice it to say science and society are not interested in the personal, the self, experience, morals being more interested in repeatability and confòrmity.
You strike me as someone architypically who has to be given the answers short of any potential of finding yourself perhaps?
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I think ill let you reflect on that but suffice it to say science and society are not interested in the personal, the self, experience, morals being more interested in repeatability and confòrmity.
You strike me as someone architypically who has to be given the answers short of any potential of finding yourself perhaps?
So you don't want to tell us why your agnostic atheism "fell apart"...
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If it was a straight binary choice between Sriram's God and the JudeoChristian concept, I'd go with Sriram. Slightly less bonkers than imagining a discrete 'being' orchestrating things from somewhere in another reality.
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If it was a straight binary choice between Sriram's God and the JudeoChristian concept, I'd go with Sriram. Slightly less bonkers than imagining a discrete 'being' orchestrating things from somewhere in another reality.
I can see the appeal of I am God and many people in the west function along those lines.
If Sriram is right there would still be the issue of how self alienation and alienation from God affects God consciousness.
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I think ill let you reflect on that but suffice it to say science and society are not interested in the personal, the self, experience, morals being more interested in repeatability and confòrmity.
You strike me as someone architypically who has to be given the answers short of any potential of finding yourself perhaps?
You try to get answers from other posters, but won't provide your own. ::)
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Hi everyone,
I will broadly outline the different stages of God realization....
1. Belief in an external God is initially born of fear and insecurity.
2. We start praying to this God for protection and survival.
3. We develop rituals and systems to approach Him and interact with him.
4. We control our behavior and discipline our thoughts so as to please Him.
5. We then start developing a relationship with God and become friendly with Him.
6. We start feeling his presence and start feeling the power of his blessing and love.
7. We then realize that we have several layers of Consciousness within ourselves.
8. We then realize that all the love, blessing and comfort is actually coming from within ourselves.
9. We then develop techniques and methods such as Yoga and meditations to control our mind further and bring out this 'God' from within.
10. We then realize that at the deepest level we have a common consciousness that seems to connect all life around us.
11. As the lower levels of conscious become less relevant ans intense, we become more and more loving, selfless, wise, stable, patient and universal.
All this of course, cannot happen over one life time. It happens over several births with different experiences.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Hi everyone,
I will broadly outline the different stages of God realization....
1. Belief in an external God is initially born of fear and insecurity.
2. We start praying to this God for protection and survival.
3. We develop rituals and systems to approach Him and interact with him.
4. We control our behavior and discipline our thoughts so as to please Him.
5. We then start developing a relationship with God and become friendly with Him.
6. We start feeling his presence and start feeling the power of his blessing and love.
7. We then realize that we have several layers of Consciousness within ourselves.
8. We then realize that all the love, blessing and comfort is actually coming from within ourselves.
9. We then develop techniques and methods such as Yoga and meditations to control our mind further and bring out this 'God' from within.
10. We then realize that at the deepest level we have a common consciousness that seems to connect all life around us.
11. As the lower levels of conscious become less relevant ans intense, we become more and more loving, selfless, wise, stable, patient and universal.
All this of course, cannot happen over one life time. It happens over several births with different experiences.
Cheers.
Sriram
Which rather brings me to my original question........why at stage 11 are you still referring to "God consciousness". Sounds like cake and eat it.
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I will broadly outline the different stages of God realization....
And we should take this seriously, because.......?
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Which rather brings me to my original question........why at stage 11 are you still referring to "God consciousness". Sounds like cake and eat it.
You can refer to it any way you want. Many people in India refer to it as the 'Self' or Atman or Brahman.
It makes no difference.
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You can refer to it any way you want. Many people in India refer to it as the 'Self' or Atman or Brahman.
It makes no difference.
Getting to God, then trading that in for self sounds a bit like finding a winning lottery ticket then finding a fine cigar and using the lottery ticket to light it.
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We are not trading something for something else. I am talking about a realization that dawns over time. Reality is what it is.
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We are not trading something for something else. I am talking about a realization that dawns over time. Reality is what it is.
OK the problem might Be terminology all.
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You can refer to it any way you want. Many people in India refer to it as the 'Self' or Atman or Brahman.
It makes no difference.
I am familiar with non-dualism in some of its forms, but not sure why you call this God. I guess this does not have Christian connotations, e.g., all-powerful, separate from the world, and so on. It seems to me that Self is quite a different idea from God, but again, this is from the point of view of Western dualism.
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I am familiar with non-dualism in some of its forms, but not sure why you call this God. I guess this does not have Christian connotations, e.g., all-powerful, separate from the world, and so on. It seems to me that Self is quite a different idea from God, but again, this is from the point of view of Western dualism.
I think Sriram would have done better not to use the western catch all word 'God' and used the Sanskrit word 'Brahman'. Even this is not without its problems as there are various schools of thought about dualism and non-dualism. Although one can pick out apparent similarities in some of the Biblical words with those used is 'Hinduism' it is more than likely that Christian doctrine would prevent acknowledgement of this.
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Interesting that Christianity is basically dualistic, since if it wasn't, there would be no need for salvation, yet some of the mystics have embraced non-dualism. I know Buddhists who talk about God, but not in the Superman sense, more like "be here now".
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My socially acquired agnostic atheism fell apart as I reflected more.
Well, I went against the secularist trend for years, thinking a 'theistic' (in the sense of existentially purposive, normative and meaningful) explanation of reality was ultimately true. As I reflected more and experienced more, this "fell apart".
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The reason I use the word God is because it is the same God (in any religion) that we initially pray to and from whom we receive peace, blessing and love....who we later realize as our Higher Self.
We pass from duality to non duality. (It is like we try to reduce everything in the complex physical world to its constituent parts, come to different atoms, various elementary particles and so on.....but eventually arrive at a single entity....Strings). Its the same in spirituality.
So, regardless of Christian or Hindu doctrine, the reality of the journey is the same for everyone.
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Well, I went against the secularist trend for years, thinking a 'theistic' (in the sense of existentially purposive, normative and meaningful) explanation of reality was ultimately true. As I reflected more and experienced more, this "fell apart".
I don't recall having to swap God for science. But a kind of socially acquired secular humanism and naturalism wasn't tenable. Not that it had much content.
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So, regardless of Christian or Hindu doctrine, the reality of the journey is the same for everyone.
Obviously not. ::)
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I don't recall having to swap God for science. But a kind of socially acquired secular humanism and naturalism wasn't tenable. Not that it had much content.
You really are obsessed with science and your list of -isms, aren't you?
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Obviously not. ::)
I find myself a deal closer to Sriram than yourself. I find you don't really have a lot to say on this.
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You really are obsessed with science and your list of -isms, aren't you?
Eh?
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I find myself a deal closer to Sriram than yourself.
Glad to hear it. :)
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People who start going on about God either somehow manage to make this inward journey of reflection to find they exist as a self and are no longer defined by any philosophy or able to hide behind a given argument or socially acquired agnosticism or they are brought to that point either by circumstances or encounter.
What about those who don't "start going on about god"?
How should they proceed?
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Hi everyone,
Just because Christians have beliefs that seem to be at variance with the above philosophy does not mean anything. Such beliefs are a stage in the development of the people. Many Hindus also believe in various Gods and visit temples and perform rituals. Everyone is not a philosopher or a Yogi.
Even in Christianity many gnostics do believe in the same philosophy as I have highlighted. Similarly in Islam and Judaism. In that sense there is no difference between Hinduism and Christianity or Islam or Judaism.
The only difference between Hinduism and other major religions is that a sizable number of people understand the inner mechanisms while still being deeply devotional. In fact, the Bhagavad Gita itself from ancient days gives a very comprehensive idea of the different paths that people can take....devotion, action and wisdom.
Therefore it does not matter how a person worships as long as they have good intent.
Cheers.
Sriram
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It is rather amusing that Sriram has just as much blind faith in his view of religion as any fundamentalist. The same absolute certainty based on nothing but subjective experience and religious preferences.
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It is rather amusing that Sriram has just as much blind faith in his view of religion as any fundamentalist. The same absolute certainty based on nothing but subjective experience and religious preferences.
Unlike all atheists, of course... ::)
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Unlike all atheists, of course... ::)
Exactly. :)
More seriously, it's possible that some atheists arrive at their view via blind faith, but I suspect that many, like myself, just find claims about gods to be totally unconvincing...
No faith required.
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What about those who don't "start going on about god"?
How should they proceed?
Some points which may be relevant here
Each journey to or away from God has a uniqueness about it because we are individuals.
Having found God we have the option of committing to God
An acquaintance once confessed that he had experienced God but it took him weeks to commit and confess his Christianity.
I know many people on the journey experience a change from intellectual interest to a kind of pull toward God. Waugh described this as the twitch onthe thread.
I'm not sure about the seeker who likes to get their interrogatees to kind of perform rather than earnestly seeking answers or bringing anything to the discussion in terms of how far off the blocks they are.
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Unlike all atheists, of course... ::)
They are absolutely certain that you can't be absolutely certain.
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They are absolutely certain that you can't be absolutely certain.
Of course one can't be certain, god and fairies might exist, but it is a case of probability.
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Of course one can't be certain, god and fairies might exist, but it is a case of probability.
Probability is a branch of maths so show working out.
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Probability is a branch of maths so show working out.
Maths is an alien subject where I am concerned. Since when have you shown probability when making your statements? NEVER! ::)
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It needs to be remembered that spirituality is a process and a practice that over time, leads to self development, greater awareness, broader perspective, wisdom, peace, selflessness, patience and so on.
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Maths is an alien subject where I am concerned. Since when have you shown probability when making your statements? NEVER! ::)
Many of my statements are not probability appropriate.
Although anything which essentially has certain physical characteristics is IMV.
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It needs to be remembered that spirituality is a process and a practice that over time, leads to self development, greater awareness, broader perspective, wisdom, peace, selflessness, patience and so on.
Except when it doesn't...
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Yes, I knew several spiritual teachers who ended up shagging all the women and going off with the cash. Omm!
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Wiggs,
Yes, I knew several spiritual teachers who ended up shagging all the women and going off with the cash. Omm!
Yeah, sorry about that Grasshopper.
Whatâs odd I find about those who ask âwhy atheism?â is that the answer â atheists havenât seen an arguments for âgodâ that isnât false â is already known to them because they use just the same reasoning to reject claims in which they do not believe. âI know that Ra is real because lots of people agree with me/I prayed to Ra and then I found my car keys/my life would be meaningless without Ra/you canât disprove Ra/your limited logic canât grasp the reality of Raâ and wearily on are easily identified as by aRa-ists as bad arguments for Ra, yet for some reason weâre expected to take them seriously when theyâre applied to whichever god the theist happens to subscribe to.
Itâs a simple test: find me an argument for your god that you donât already know to be bad one when itâs tried for a different god and then â finally â there will be a conversation to be had. Until then thoughâŚ
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Wiggs,
Yeah, sorry about that Grasshopper.
Whatâs odd I find about those who ask âwhy atheism?â is that the answer â atheists havenât seen an arguments for âgodâ that isnât false.
This is from someone who equates unjustified criticism with cast iron demolition.
Mr my model of morality is correct, can we move on now.
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Yes, I knew several spiritual teachers who ended up shagging all the women and going off with the cash. Omm!
Maybe you should have got the earlier bus.
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Wiggs,
Yeah, sorry about that Grasshopper.
Whatâs odd I find about those who ask âwhy atheism?â is that the answer â atheists havenât seen an arguments for âgodâ that isnât false â is already known to them because they use just the same reasoning to reject claims in which they do not believe. âI know that Ra is real because lots of people agree with me/I prayed to Ra and then I found my car keys/my life would be meaningless without Ra/you canât disprove Ra/your limited logic canât grasp the reality of Raâ and wearily on are easily identified as by aRa-ists as bad arguments for Ra, yet for some reason weâre expected to take them seriously when theyâre applied to whichever god the theist happens to subscribe to.
Itâs a simple test: find me an argument for your god that you donât already know to be bad one when itâs tried for a different god and then â finally â there will be a conversation to be had. Until then thoughâŚ
Not familiar with these arguments as being from around here.
Have you been seeing another forum and keeping it a secret?
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Of course one can't be certain, god and fairies might exist, but it is a case of probability.
HEY.. i think you will find fairies DO exist you heathen blasphemer!
http://home.bt.com/news/odd-news/professors-photos-prove-fairies-are-real-11363890179718
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/proof-fairies-exist-mum-photographs-5645367
As that, not rubbish at all movie, Loch Ness says... "you must believe it before you can see it".
Hmm on reflection that's what religion is about... that movie might be deeper than i gave it credit for! ;)
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HEY.. i think you will find fairies DO exist you heathen blasphemer!
http://home.bt.com/news/odd-news/professors-photos-prove-fairies-are-real-11363890179718
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/proof-fairies-exist-mum-photographs-5645367
As that, not rubbish at all movie, Loch Ness says... "you must believe it before you can see it".
Hmm on reflection that's what religion is about... that movie might be deeper than i gave it credit for! ;)
I will believe in god and fairies when I see them in person, in a way which cannot be refuted.
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Floo,
I will believe in god and fairies when I see them in person, in a way which cannot be refuted.
Actually seeing things in person is one of the more unreliable methods of establishing the truth of something. That's why police line-ups (to take one example) often produce false positives.
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I'm not sure about the seeker who likes to get their interrogatees to kind of perform rather than earnestly seeking answers or bringing anything to the discussion in terms of how far off the blocks they are.
How can a seeker do anything other than ask questions especially if they don't know whether they are approaching, on, off or haven't yet acquired the "blocks".
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How can a seeker do anything other than ask questions especially if they don't know whether they are approaching, on, off or haven't yet acquired the "blocks".
I'm not sure that someone whose only end is to get people to perform for a type of entertainment can be any kind of seeker apart from a thrill seeker.
As Jesus says no one should set out with the plough looking backwards.
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How can a seeker do anything other than ask questions especially if they don't know whether they are approaching, on, off or haven't yet acquired the "blocks".
Who are you asking the questions of? God ? Yourself?
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Who are you asking the questions of? God ? Yourself?
You referred to "interrogatees" in the post to which I was responding.
Go figure.
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As Jesus says no one should set out with the plough looking backwards.
https://cdn.britannica.com/42/3542-050-F8771E6E.jpg
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You referred to "interrogatees" in the post to which I was responding.
Go figure.
I would have expected some self questioning, some self and existential questioning. Otherwise we are just accumulating information, for what purpose? There is also maybe the occasion to tentatively risk an approach to God himself.
You seemed to have owned up to just enjoying interrogating people and so I might question the amount of reflection.
Only you can know where you are on this and I can only offer my opinion based on what you say and what I see you doing.
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https://cdn.britannica.com/42/3542-050-F8771E6E.jpg
Yes that really is a drivers usual stance when driving isn't it.
will you put your money here your mouth is and drive like that to the shops?
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https://cdn.britannica.com/42/3542-050-F8771E6E.jpg
What part of first century Palestine was this photo taken?
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https://cdn.britannica.com/42/3542-050-F8771E6E.jpg
Very droll, but in Jesus' day, the ploughman went at the back, behind the plough, like this. (https://i.pinimg.com/236x/67/35/75/673575b5ef757b215ed7aa1977acd087--th-century-farm-life.jpg)
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I don't think ploughmen need to look back now, as they have GPS, so you get perfect straight furrows. Just like life, ha ha.
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I don't think ploughmen need to look back now, as they have GPS, so you get perfect straight furrows. Just like life, ha ha.
Agreed.