Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Roses on April 15, 2019, 06:36:18 PM

Title: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 15, 2019, 06:36:18 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47941794
That is terrible!  :o
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Walter on April 15, 2019, 07:22:50 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47941794
That is terrible!  :o

it wasn't me , I've been here all day!!!!!
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 15, 2019, 07:30:11 PM
My wife is flying to Paris tomorrow, with me following Thursday. Struggling to comprehend the loss of such an iconic building.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 15, 2019, 08:09:31 PM
Very interesting and informative thread on the tragic fire


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1117847726786371585.html
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: jeremyp on April 15, 2019, 09:16:58 PM
This is terrible. The TV pictures I am seeing now make it look weird. I googled some pics to find out why, and it’s because the roof has totally gone.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 15, 2019, 09:22:02 PM
The first 6 minutes of Civilisation seems apposite




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TxsVroiUHik&fbclid=IwAR1zvkHFMlpKv50b7Imb0Zc4s1z1-QxDL7fqj_SVv_2uWRIwyxRmjpRTTvs
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: jeremyp on April 15, 2019, 09:37:04 PM
Does anybody know if there are casualties? The BBC doesn’t seem to be mentioning any, so does that mean we think everybody got out?
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: jeremyp on April 15, 2019, 09:41:14 PM
Donald Trump injects some humour.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1117844987293487104
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 15, 2019, 09:42:07 PM
So far there don't seem to be any casualties, though it hasn't been confirmed. Also reports are that the moveable works of art have been saved, and the crown of thorns.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 16, 2019, 08:26:43 AM
I am so glad there has been no reports of casualties. A French billionaire has donated the 100 million euros (£86, 000, 000) to help with the restoration.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Alan Burns on April 16, 2019, 11:12:15 AM
The biggest sadness for me is that most of the concerns are for a loss of a tourist attraction rather than the loss of the loss of a magnificent place of worship.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 16, 2019, 11:21:28 AM
The biggest sadness for me is that most of the concerns are for a loss of a tourist attraction rather than the loss of the loss of a magnificent place of worship.
I think that's a hugely simplistic analysis of why people might regret it. Perhaps you need to stop feeling superior about your loss.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Maeght on April 16, 2019, 11:27:03 AM
The biggest sadness for me is that most of the concerns are for a loss of a tourist attraction rather than the loss of the loss of a magnificent place of worship.

Where have you got that from? I've heard no mention of tourism at all.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 16, 2019, 11:30:38 AM
Where have you got that from? I've heard no mention of tourism at all.

It was certainly a tourist attraction.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Maeght on April 16, 2019, 11:34:37 AM
It was certainly a tourist attraction.

Or course it is.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 16, 2019, 11:37:15 AM
It was certainly a tourist attraction.
Which is irrelevant to AB's claim that the loss most people have expressed is about the loss of a tourist attraction.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: bluehillside Retd. on April 16, 2019, 11:42:03 AM
NS,

Quote
Which is irrelevant to AB's claim that the Islamist people have expressed is about the loss of a tourist attraction.

"Islamist"? Typo maybe?
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 16, 2019, 12:13:07 PM
I have just seen that a firefighter was seriously injured in the blaze. :o
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: jeremyp on April 16, 2019, 12:28:23 PM
Even if they didn't fix it, it would still remain a tourist attraction, perhaps not the number one tourist attraction in France though.

Anyway, here is some good news.

https://twitter.com/areinaud/status/1117916691353067521

For the most part, the stone vaulting has protected the interior of the cathedral from serious damage. When I saw the images on TV yesterday, I thought the place would be completely gutted but it's not.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Maeght on April 16, 2019, 01:42:39 PM
I have just seen that a firefighter was seriously injured in the blaze. :o

Where dud you see this? BBC says one fire fighter suffered minor injuries.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 16, 2019, 01:47:52 PM
Where dud you see this? BBC says one fire fighter suffered minor injuries.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-firefighter-injury-paris-latest-a8871656.html

I wonder how true this is as it hasn't actually been mentioned on the news.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Maeght on April 16, 2019, 01:50:26 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-firefighter-injury-paris-latest-a8871656.html

I wonder how true this is as it hasn't actually been mentioned on the news.

Think we'd have heard this widely if true. Hopefully its not.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 16, 2019, 02:00:55 PM
NS,

"Islamist"? Typo maybe?
And DYAC
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: ippy on April 16, 2019, 02:01:15 PM
Think we'd have heard this widely if true. Hopefully its not.

A tragic loss for all of us, equally for religious believers or non-believers it's common history for all.

ippy
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Maeght on April 16, 2019, 02:03:02 PM
A tragic loss for all of us, equally for religious believers or non-believers it's common history for all.

ippy

Why did you quote me?
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Spud on April 16, 2019, 03:00:14 PM
The biggest sadness for me is that most of the concerns are for a loss of a tourist attraction rather than the loss of the loss of a magnificent place of worship.
France seems to have a cathedral in every town, or at least that's the impression I got. Their churches are massive!
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 16, 2019, 03:11:07 PM
It is a pity the RCC doesn't spend more helping the poor rather than on its buildings.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Maeght on April 16, 2019, 03:28:41 PM
It is a pity the RCC doesn't spend more helping the poor rather than on its buildings.

The RCC doesn't own Notre Dam if course. Not sure they own any f the churches in France either, could be wrong though.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: bluehillside Retd. on April 16, 2019, 03:47:15 PM
Floo,

Quote
It is a pity the RCC doesn't spend more helping the poor rather than on its buildings.

Notre-Dame Cathedral is owned by the French Ministry of Culture. 
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: ippy on April 16, 2019, 05:00:48 PM
Why did you quote me?

I didn't knowingly quote you, I placed my own personal feelings about Notre Dame on this forum and it looks like my view coincides with yours; you must be bordering on being a genius!

Regards ippy :)
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Harrowby Hall on April 16, 2019, 06:46:39 PM
The RCC doesn't own Notre Dam if course. Not sure they own any f the churches in France either, could be wrong though.

Churches were taken into State ownership during the Revolution and have so remained - although I do not know of the status of any churches built since then.

The three churches in my commune are all owned and managed by the commune. There is an individual responsible for managing bookings. The church in the main village is used for both RC and CofE services (local expat community). It accommodates more Anglican than RC events.

I note Alan Burns vacuous comment. He clearly fails to understand the cultural importance  of ancient churches if he perceives them to be of interest only to believers and grockles. The buildings encapsulate a huge range of important cultural attributes related to the development of modern values - one of which is religious belief.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: jeremyp on April 16, 2019, 07:26:54 PM
Why did you quote me?
Why didn’t you quote me?
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Maeght on April 16, 2019, 09:21:00 PM
I didn't knowingly quote you, I placed my own personal feelings about Notre Dame on this forum and it looks like my view coincides with yours; you must be bordering on being a genius!

Regards ippy :)

Um, thanks, but no, you included my post in quotes in your post but your post seemed to have no relationship to my post, hence my question.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 17, 2019, 08:32:52 AM
As devastating as Notre-Dame fire is, at least it has silenced the 'B' word this week, for which I, and no doubt others are grateful.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Sriram on April 17, 2019, 02:49:11 PM

Much more is being devastated around the world than Notre Dame. I wish similar shock was felt and  immediate action was taken on such matters.  ::)
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 17, 2019, 02:58:37 PM
Much more is being devastated around the world than Notre Dame. I wish similar shock was felt and  immediate action was taken on such matters.  ::)

For instance?
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 17, 2019, 03:12:13 PM
Much more is being devastated around the world than Notre Dame. I wish similar shock was felt and  immediate action was taken on such matters.  ::)
Whataboutery rides!
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Udayana on April 17, 2019, 08:56:52 PM
For instance?
Grenfell? Sprinklers in schools? Vestes jaunes? Economics, immigration, Front National? Yemen, Syria, Libya, Algeria, climate change?
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: torridon on April 18, 2019, 06:45:41 AM
Pledges and donations totalling around $1bn now. Amazing generous response to tragedy n'est ce pas ?

On the other hand the DEC appeal for the victims Cyclone Idai has managed to raise £29m so far, a paltry sum by comparison.

Isn't this obscene ? 1000 people killed and 3 million lives torn apart through loss of livelihood and property.  But we are far more bothered about preserving our cultural heritage
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Bramble on April 18, 2019, 08:19:03 AM
Whenever a report is published detailing the extent of our catastrophic devastation of the natural world it struggles to get a couple of minutes at the end of a news programme. The contrast is revealing.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Enki on April 18, 2019, 10:40:59 AM
Much more is being devastated around the world than Notre Dame. I wish similar shock was felt and  immediate action was taken on such matters.  ::)

I think the problem lies with human nature. We generally give more importance to events that are emotionally closer to us.

I remember the disaster of Aberfan very well and it was given huge media(mainly newspapers) coverage at that time. Few will remember a short paragraph in one of the newspapers that I read detailing the number of people killed by a flood in East Pakistan(Bangladesh) at the same time and which greatly outnumbered those killed in the Aberfan disaster.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on April 18, 2019, 12:31:16 PM
I think the problem lies with human nature. We generally give more importance to events that are emotionally closer to us.

I remember the disaster of Aberfan very well and it was given huge media(mainly newspapers) coverage at that time. Few will remember a short paragraph in one of the newspapers that I read detailing the number of people killed by a flood in East Pakistan(Bangladesh) at the same time and which greatly outnumbered those killed in the Aberfan disaster.


You make a good point.


My husband and I will not be giving any money to the Notre-Dame appeal, even though we have been there on a special occasion, at the turn of the century. We prefer to give money to help people, not buildings.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Udayana on April 18, 2019, 01:52:59 PM
I think the problem lies with human nature. We generally give more importance to events that are emotionally closer to us.
...

Agreed, but that is not the only or, necessarily, the most important flaw. The question is, can it be fixed? 
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Walter on May 13, 2019, 05:06:13 PM
The biggest sadness for me is that most of the concerns are for a loss of a tourist attraction rather than the loss of the loss of a magnificent place of worship.
AB
if you're looking for a magnificent place of worship , try the rolling hills and coastline of Northumberland . Wonderful.  And your god made it all. 
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Steve H on May 15, 2019, 07:34:22 AM
The biggest sadness for me is that most of the concerns are for a loss of a tourist attraction rather than the loss of the loss of a magnificent place of worship.
Well, happily it hasn't been completely lost, though it'll take years to restore.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Harrowby Hall on May 15, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
...  it'll take years to restore.

Indeed.

As I heard one person comment:    Those oak beams. They don't grow on trees ...
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Steve H on May 15, 2019, 09:55:43 AM
Indeed.

As I heard one person comment:    Those oak beams. They don't grow on trees ...
;D
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Samuel on May 15, 2019, 03:03:43 PM
Indeed.

As I heard one person comment:    Those oak beams. They don't grow on trees ...

please tell me that's a joke... you didn't really hear that as a genuine comment did you?
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Harrowby Hall on May 17, 2019, 09:21:32 AM
It was intended to be humour.  But it had a serious point, too.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: jeremyp on May 17, 2019, 06:37:27 PM
It was intended to be humour.  But it had a serious point, too.
Yes, because, in fact they don't grow on trees, they are trees.

Sourcing enough oak to replace the beams might be problematic. In fact, it might be better to use a more modern stronger, lighter and less flammable material.
Title: Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire!
Post by: Roses on June 04, 2019, 11:29:04 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48510976

It has been suggested pregnant women and children have lead tests as the fire could have caused contamination.