Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Roses on September 23, 2019, 10:32:36 AM
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I am of the opinion that if someone confesses to a priest a serious crime, they should be obliged by law to inform the police. Giving the miscreant a few hail Mary's is not going to absolve them of their wrong doing. For instance, if the RCC had cracked down on paedophile priests and reported them to the police instead of keeping the knowledge of their misdeeds in house, they would not have been free to abuse again as many of them did.
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I am of the opinion that if someone confesses to a priest a serious crime, they should be obliged by law to inform the police. Giving the miscreant a few hail Mary's is not going to absolve them of their wrong doing. For instance, if the RCC had cracked down on paedophile priests and reported them to the police instead of keeping the knowledge of their misdeeds in house, they would not have been free to abuse again as many of them did.
I take it you don't just want to apply to priests?
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I take it you don't just want to apply to priests?
I am not sure what you mean?
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I am not sure what you mean?
There isn't a general duty on anyone to report a crime currently
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There isn't a general duty on anyone to report a crime currently
I think the law should require everyone to report a serious crime.
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I think the law should require everyone to report a serious crime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(Nineteen_Eighty-Four)
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There isn't a general duty on anyone to report a crime currently
I would say there is a moral duty to report serious crimes e.g. murder, rape, child abuse. Of course, Catholic priests believe they have a higher moral duty to keep confessions a secret.
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I would say there is a moral duty to report serious crimes e.g. murder, rape, child abuse. Of course, Catholic priests believe they have a higher moral duty to keep confessions a secret.
There is nothing moral about keeping confessions a secret if the result is more people are harmed.
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I would say there is a moral duty to report serious crimes e.g. murder, rape, child abuse. Of course, Catholic priests believe they have a higher moral duty to keep confessions a secret.
I would agree about the moral duty but LR was talking about it being illegal. We have mandatory reporting for FGM for some professions - doctors, teachers but nothing wider. The govt looked at introducing a wider coverage for child abuse but that was dropped some time ago. That was also going to be restricted on the basis of professions. I remember at the time there was some discussion that they might extend it to everyone and that the research indicated that wasn't a good solution.
There is wider mandatory reporting in the, and I think the confessional is specifically excluded.
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The problem could be that once it becomes mandatory for priests to report confessional crimes to the police, confessions will cease altogether. Why would anyone confess to a priest something that would immediately get him or her arrested?
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The problem could be that once it becomes mandatory for priests to report confessional crimes to the police, confessions will cease altogether. Why would anyone confess to a priest something that would immediately get him or her arrested?
I think Sriram makes a good point. I would also add that if it was made mandatory then the possibility of a priest being able to influence the perpetrator(perhaps to convince he/she to give themselves up to the authorities) would be greatly diminished.
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The problem could be that once it becomes mandatory for priests to report confessional crimes to the police, confessions will cease altogether. Why would anyone confess to a priest something that would immediately get him or her arrested?
Most confessions are not about serious crime
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If priests start telling the police about confessions, people will stop confessing to them. You haven't really thought this through, have you?
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If priests start telling the police about confessions, people will stop confessing to them. You haven't really thought this through, have you?
What is the point of confessing to a priest, I don't it?
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The problem could be that once it becomes mandatory for priests to report confessional crimes to the police, confessions will cease altogether. Why would anyone confess to a priest something that would immediately get him or her arrested?
I'm struggling to see the problem, to be honest...
O.
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The problem could be that once it becomes mandatory for priests to report confessional crimes to the police, confessions will cease altogether. Why would anyone confess to a priest something that would immediately get him or her arrested?
That's a very good point.
If priests start telling the police about confessions, people will stop confessing to them. You haven't really thought this through, have you?
So is that.
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What is the point of confessing to a priest, I don't it?
The sacrament of confession is central to the Roman Catholic faith, and derives from the authority delegated by Jesus to the apostles to forgive or retain people's sins. An essential element in this sacrament is repentance together with a firm purpose of amendment, and the priest will advise how best the confessor may avoid future sin. In the case of serious criminal acts, the priest will be obliged to offer advice to give themselves up to the police. Confidentiality is essential in order to encourage the person to give a truthful, honest account of their sins.
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The sacrament of confession is central to the Roman Catholic faith, and derives from the authority delegated by Jesus to the apostles to forgive or retain people's sins. An essential element in this sacrament is repentance together with a firm purpose of amendment, and the priest will advise how best the confessor may avoid future sin. In the case of serious criminal acts, the priest will be obliged to offer advice to give themselves up to the police. Confidentiality is essential in order to encourage the person to give a truthful, honest account of their sins.
Yes...I agree about God being the final judge and all that. I believe in karmic effects.....'what goes around comes around'.
But would you rather that a criminal (say a child rapist) is not imprisoned and punished by humans but is judged only by God eventually?!! That might have been ok or even necessary during earlier times when organised law enforcement and courts were not available. But in today's situation...?!
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Yes...I agree about God being the final judge and all that. I believe in karmic effects.....'what goes around comes around'.
But would you rather that a criminal (say a child rapist) is not imprisoned and punished by humans but is judged only by God eventually?!! That might have been ok or even necessary during earlier times when organised law enforcement and courts were not available. But in today's situation...?!
But, as you pointed out earlier, as did I, if priests start telling the police about serious crimes confessed to, people will stop confessing them!
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But, as you pointed out earlier, as did I, if priests start telling the police about serious crimes confessed to, people will stop confessing them!
Yes...I agree. My above point is with regard to the idea of confessing to a priest as an alternative to being punished by the Law. In today's world most of us would not like the idea of a criminal going unpunished even if he confesses to a priest and genuinely repents. In earlier times it was different.
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But, as you pointed out earlier, as did I, if priests start telling the police about serious crimes confessed to, people will stop confessing them!
Good it is all mumbo jumbo anyway. People should be confessing to the police, not priests, and try to make amends for their crimes.
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Yes...I agree about God being the final judge and all that. I believe in karmic effects.....'what goes around comes around'.
You believe in 'what goes around comes around' in a world where childhood leukaemia stands alongside Boris Johnson's ascent to Prime Minister and Donald Trump's presidency? Do you not look at the world around you at all?
O.
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You believe in 'what goes around comes around' in a world where childhood leukaemia stands alongside Boris Johnson's ascent to Prime Minister and Donald Trump's presidency? Do you not look at the world around you at all?
O.
In fact, it is precisely because of the inequalities that we observe in this world that we believe in karmic influences (over several life times). They equalize everything over time such that eventually everyone reaches the same goal. The inequalities of today are only temporary and get ironed out eventually.
The 'randomness' that science attributes to everything is so...unscientific....! ::)
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In fact, it is precisely because of the inequalities that we observe in this world that we believe in karmic influences (over several life times). They equalize everything over time such that eventually everyone reaches the same goal. The inequalities of today are only temporary and get ironed out eventually.
I see, so even the claim of 'what goes around comes around' is subject to 'cosmic woo' enough to make it a) unmeasurable, b) unfalsifiable and, therefore, c)unimportant.
The 'randomness' that science attributes to everything is so...unscientific....! ::)
I don't think science alleges 'random' lightly - the only thing, currently, that I'm aware science considers to be fundamentally random is quantum fluctuation, and even that is only random within a tightly constrained set of possible limits. There are a number of complex interactions which science can explain the theory of the components of, but which are large enough in scope that we don't have the computational capacity or sufficient information to practically determine, and so treat as random (for instance, elements of meterology), but there's very little out there that's actually random. And yet, ironically, given that everything's underpinned by quantum fluctuations, everything's potentially susceptible to randomness - you could probably find a spiritual aphorism to make that sound deep and add absolutely no practical value if you tried.
O.
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'Unmeasurable' is not 'unimportant'.. That is the basic mistake people enamored with scientism make.
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'Unmeasurable' is not 'unimportant'.. That is the basic mistake people enamored with scientism make.
Unmeasurable, alone, is no unimportant. Unmeasurable and unfalsifiable, that's unimportant. The effect being attributed to whatever it is - life, consciousness, quantum fluctuations - isn't unimportant, but unmeasurable, unfalsifiable claims about the nature of it.. that is.
O.
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Sriram,
'Unmeasurable' is not 'unimportant'.. That is the basic mistake people enamored with scientism make.
Unmeasurability alone doesn't make something unimportant - non-investigabiity though does because a non-investigable truth claim is just a guess, and there as many of those as there are people to have them, you included.
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I never knew the confessional has so much in it.
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I never knew the confessional has so much in it.
however, I must confess I've never been to one 😝
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I am of the opinion that if someone confesses to a priest a serious crime, they should be obliged by law to inform the police. Giving the miscreant a few hail Mary's is not going to absolve them of their wrong doing. For instance, if the RCC had cracked down on paedophile priests and reported them to the police instead of keeping the knowledge of their misdeeds in house, they would not have been free to abuse again as many of them did.
I don't think the priests are obliged to 'absolve' them, particularly when it comes to the most serious crimes. And maybe a good priest would advise the offender to give themselves up. If such people have taken the step of going to the confessional, it does indicate some kind of moral conscience. I doubt that a murderous psychopath would give a monkey's toss.
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DU,
I don't think the priests are obliged to 'absolve' them, particularly when it comes to the most serious crimes. And maybe a good priest would advise the offender to give themselves up. If such people have taken the step of going to the confessional, it does indicate some kind of moral conscience. I doubt that a murderous psychopath would give a monkey's toss.
It may indicate a moral conscience, but the problem (or rather one of them) is that a ne'er-do-well could see doing penance in the confessional as sufficient to atone for his crimes and so not trouble with the really rather disobliging business of police, courts, prison etc. After all, if a priest tells him he's now right with god why bother with the rest?
There was incidentally a nuanced and articulate priest here (or possibly on the old BBC mb) a while back who said that, even if someone in the confessional told him that he'd put a bomb in a primary school and wouldn't tell the cops still the priest wouldn't shop him to the cops. That seemed to me - and still seems to me - to be an example of the utterly morally corrupting effect that thinking there to be a higher authority can have.
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If priests start telling the police about confessions, people will stop confessing to them. You haven't really thought this through, have you?
So you're a priest and somebody just confessed to you that they have committed multiple murders. They are a serial killer. What do you do?
Suppose you keep quiet and there's another murder. It's obvious from the context it was your confessee. What do you do? Bear in mind you now have a murder on your conscience. I wouldn't be able to live with that. I'd have to turn the murderer in to the police.
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So you're a priest and somebody just confessed to you that they have committed multiple murders. They are a serial killer. What do you do?
Suppose you keep quiet and there's another murder. It's obvious from the context it was your confessee. What do you do? Bear in mind you now have a murder on your conscience. I wouldn't be able to live with that. I'd have to turn the murderer in to the police.
A priest should stick two fingers up to his church's dogma, and do the right thing by turning them in.