Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Aruntraveller on September 26, 2019, 08:02:02 AM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-49825570
I remember seeing this exchange on Breakfast TV when it happened. And I also remember thinking at last a TV presenter on the BBC news has called out Trump for exactly what he is.
The BBC says she breached their rules.
I think she was bang on the money, and if people don't hear these responses from those affected by the language used by politicians when will the majority get to hear a response borne out of experience. And before some wag says you can talk to people, yes you can - but how often does the population as a whole seek out BAME people and ask them how they feel about language used.
What do others think?
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-49825570
I remember seeing this exchange on Breakfast TV when it happened. And I also remember thinking at last a TV presenter on the BBC news has called out Trump for exactly what he is.
The BBC says she breached their rules.
I think she was bang on the money, and if people don't hear these responses from those affected by the language used by politicians when will the majority get to hear a response borne out of experience. And before some wag says you can talk to people, yes you can - but how often does the population as a whole seek out BAME people and ask them how they feel about language used.
What do others think?
She probably breached the BBC rules, but GOOD FOR HER! Racism should always be challenged it is EVIL!
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The BBC, as ever, treads a fine line as a publicly funded broadcaster - it has a tendency to err on the side of caution in its rulings, but it also has a tendency to update its guidance in response to events like this. It's decided, from the wording in that article at least, that she broke their guidelines that were in place at the time, but it also suggests that there is at least some sympathy for her point of view - part of the issue is likely the nature of the programme she's on, and the role she's supposed to be playing on that programme, where it's not the nature of her opinion that's the issue but rather the fact that's she's supposed to not be editorialising in that particular moment.
I agree with her completely, and I think the statement makes clear that no-one in the judgement is actually disagreeing with what she said, I think there is a slight issue with her timing and how it fits with her job in that particular segment.
O.
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Yes, she was right - although sometimes just a word or two arranged differently can get across your ideas without breaching rules.
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It need not necessarily be about racism. It is possible that some English people tell the Irish or the French or the Polish to 'go back where they came form'. It need not be racial.
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It need not necessarily be about racism. It is possible that some English people tell the Irish or the French or the Polish to 'go back where they came form'. It need not be racial.
But if they did as you say, Sriram, then surely that would be racist?
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It need not necessarily be about racism. It is possible that some English people tell the Irish or the French or the Polish to 'go back where they came form'. It need not be racial.
We would call that racism in the UK. Race isn't just being a different colour.
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We would call that racism in the UK. Race isn't just being a different colour.
I agree.
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It need not necessarily be about racism. It is possible that some English people tell the Irish or the French or the Polish to 'go back where they came form'. It need not be racial.
We're a small island and I would prefer to not have the people you're referring to coming here to live in such vast quantities and all arriving here in such short spaces of time.
Nothing to do with racism, just common practical sense.
Regards, ippy.
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We would call that racism in the UK. Race isn't just being a different colour.
i don't call that racism. I call it "I'dont like you and I don't want you here ism "
A bit like an unwanted guest at a dinner party
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We're a small island and I would prefer to not have the people you're referring to coming here to live in such vast quantities and all arriving here in such a short spaces of time.
Why?
I suspect there are many countries who, historically, didn't want so many of us (the British, white Europeans, whichever) coming to live in their countries in such vast numbers in such a short period; the difference is, rather than contributing to their economies and being an integral cog in such machines as the health service and social care sectors, we conducted massacres and slavery and subjugated the local populace, stripping them of their brightest people and natural resources, setting their economies back centuries. If we hadn't done quite so much of that, perhaps their homelands would be economically secure and developed enough that they wouldn't feel the need to come here for a chance at life.
We are living off the benefit of the deliberate subjugation of their societies, whether that's the direct colonisation of India, Africa the Americas and more, or the abandonment of Eastern Europe to soviet serfdom - these people deserve a fair crack of the whip. Why does the accident of birth of being British entitle me to job opportunities in an advanced economy whilst they should be restricted to second or third world economies, civil wars and religious persecution because our ancestors cut and run and didn't clean up the mess they left behind?
O.
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Other opinions are available !
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i don't call that racism. I call it "I'dont like you and I don't want you here ism "
A bit like an unwanted guest at a dinner party
If, though, your rationale for not wanting them is their racial background, then that's pretty much the textbook definition of racism.
'I don't want them here' explains the what - racism is about the why.
O.
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Why?
I suspect there are many countries who, historically, didn't want so many of us (the British, white Europeans, whichever) coming to live in their countries in such vast numbers in such a short period; the difference is, rather than contributing to their economies and being an integral cog in such machines as the health service and social care sectors, we conducted massacres and slavery and subjugated the local populace, stripping them of their brightest people and natural resources, setting their economies back centuries. If we hadn't done quite so much of that, perhaps their homelands would be economically secure and developed enough that they wouldn't feel the need to come here for a chance at life.
We are living off the benefit of the deliberate subjugation of their societies, whether that's the direct colonisation of India, Africa the Americas and more, or the abandonment of Eastern Europe to soviet serfdom - these people deserve a fair crack of the whip. Why does the accident of birth of being British entitle me to job opportunities in an advanced economy whilst they should be restricted to second or third world economies, civil wars and religious persecution because our ancestors cut and run and didn't clean up the mess they left behind?
O.
Very true, the British Empire was a huge blot on our history in the way it was acquired. >:(
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If, though, your rational for not wanting them is their racial background, then that's pretty much the textbook definition of racism.
'I don't want them here' explains the what - racism is about the why.
O.
racism is not neccesarily the only reason though .
Speaking purely for myself , I quite simply don't like some people/groups
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Ippy,
We're a small island and I would prefer to not have the people you're referring to coming here to live in such vast quantities and all arriving here in such short spaces of time.
Nothing to do with racism, just common practical sense.
Yeah, bloody foreigners coming here with all their qualifications and expertise working and paying their taxes, adding all that cultural diversity. Who do they bloody well think they are eh?
Tell you what too, if we don’t keep a really close eye on them next thing you know they’ll be joining our lovely army and risking their lives for the British way of life. Bloody foreigners.
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What some people don't seem to get is that most of our ancestors were likely to have been incomers.
The UK is going to be up the creek without a paddle where the NHS is concerned if people from the EU and other 'foreigners' don't come here anymore as so many of them work in our hospitals, not enough home grown Brits want to train as medics these days.
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We're a small island and I would prefer to not have the people you're referring to coming here to live in such vast quantities and all arriving here in such short spaces of time.
Nothing to do with racism, just common practical sense.
What do you call "vast quantities"? How many would be acceptable? Given that immigrants contribute a lot to our economy and national life, why has it got anything to do with "common practical sense"?
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Where have I ever said we shouldn't be having any immigrants coming to the UK?
I suppose this another part of the, anyone that mentions immigrants other than the welcoming of millions of immigrants coming to the UK is now automatically designated as a racist bigot, or the anyone that doesn't see things the same way as this self appointed committee in the sky party says is a shit.
ippy
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racism is not neccesarily the only reason though . Speaking purely for myself , I quite simply don't like some people/groups
If you don't like, say, arrogant people, fine. If you don't like a race of people, that's racism. If you don't like a race of people because you think they're arrogant, that's also racism, because there isn't an entire race of people who are arrogant.
O.
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Where have I ever said we shouldn't be having any immigrants coming to the UK?
When did anyone suggest that you did? You suggested your issue was with 'too many', and someone asked how many you'd be happy with.
I suppose this another part of the, anyone that mentions immigrants other than the welcoming of millions of immigrants coming to the UK is now automatically designated as a racist bigot, or the anyone that doesn't see things the same way as this self appointed committee in the sky party says is a shit.
Quick, quick, play another victim card and we can have snap!!! If you object to people coming here from foreign places then it's likely there's at least an element of racism to it simply because it's overwhelmingly the major contributory factor to that attitude - it colours (if you'll excuse the term) people's view of things like their economic and social impact on the country, the proportion of the populace that they represent and the influence they have on shifting of political attitudes.
However, so far people have refrained from making the accusation, instead querying of you (and others) why you feel that there is a need for an increased restriction on immigration. You aren't being instantly accused of racism, but you are espousing comment points that are often support by racist tropes, and people are trying to ascertain if that's the case here.
O.
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Why?
I suspect there are many countries who, historically, didn't want so many of us (the British, white Europeans, whichever) coming to live in their countries in such vast numbers in such a short period; the difference is, rather than contributing to their economies and being an integral cog in such machines as the health service and social care sectors, we conducted massacres and slavery and subjugated the local populace, stripping them of their brightest people and natural resources, setting their economies back centuries. If we hadn't done quite so much of that, perhaps their homelands would be economically secure and developed enough that they wouldn't feel the need to come here for a chance at life.
We are living off the benefit of the deliberate subjugation of their societies, whether that's the direct colonisation of India, Africa the Americas and more, or the abandonment of Eastern Europe to soviet serfdom - these people deserve a fair crack of the whip. Why does the accident of birth of being British entitle me to job opportunities in an advanced economy whilst they should be restricted to second or third world economies, civil wars and religious persecution because our ancestors cut and run and didn't clean up the mess they left behind?
O.
Why the history lesson?
The post of mine you're referring to that post stands and it's an overall assessment and I don't think it needs clarification unless you're looking for an encyclopaedic length explanation that you'd probably fall asleep over if you were to try to read it, come on you're not by any means a thicko.
Regards, ippy.
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ippy,
Why the history lesson?
The post of mine you're referring to that post stands and it's an overall assessment and I don't think it needs clarification unless you're looking for an encyclopaedic length explanation that you'd probably fall asleep over if you were to try to read it, come on you're not by any means a thicko.
You referred to Britain being a "small" island and to "vast numbers" of immigrants. What do you consider the optimum number of people per square mile to be then, and why?
See, it's all too easy to regurgitate the Daily Mail type trope of "bloody foreigners coming here and swamping our already crowded country" or some such but it's all meaningless rabble rousing unless you can put some argument to it. We'd agree that a population of, say, one person would allow for many more people and that a population of, say, one billion would make life impossible for practical reasons. Where though would you set the optimum level between those extremes and why?
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Why the history lesson?
Because there are reasons both that these people want to come here, and why we shouldn't be stopping them doing so.
The post of mine you're referring to that post stands and it's an overall assessment and I don't think it needs clarification unless you're looking for an encyclopaedic length explanation that you'd probably fall asleep over if you were to try to read it, come on you're not by any means a thicko.
I thought, and still think, that it needs expanding upon, and I think I reasonably explained why.
O.
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If you don't like, say, arrogant people, fine. If you don't like a race of people, that's racism. If you don't like a race of people because you think they're arrogant, that's also racism, because there isn't an entire race of people who are arrogant.
O.
im okay with arrogant people they tend to know their own minds and are not afraid to give an opinion . Wether that opinion is right or wrong is a different matter .
As to race I see only one race on this planet what troubles me is religions.
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But getting back to Nagga Muchetty , I can't stand the woman .
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Because there are reasons both that these people want to come here, and why we shouldn't be stopping them doing so.
I thought, and still think, that it needs expanding upon, and I think I reasonably explained why.
O.
It appears to me you seem to want an open door to humanity as a whole to come here as they please no matter how many, you explain why you want to put out your unending to all humanity welcome mat before I consider whether I will give you an answer or not, more likely not.(there you are a half of a clay pidgin for you).
Regards, ippy.
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It appears to me you seem to want an open door to humanity as a whole to come here as they please no matter how many, you explain why you want to put out your unending to all humanity welcome mat before I consider whether I will give you an answer or not, more likely not.(there you are a half of a clay pidgin for you).
Regards, ippy.
I think 'humanity is welcome' would make a rather nice mat.
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It appears to me you seem to want an open door to humanity as a whole to come here as they please no matter how many, you explain why you want to put out your unending to all humanity welcome mat before I consider whether I will give you an answer or not, more likely not.(there you are a half of a clay pidgin for you).
Regards, ippy.
It is good to have people wanting to come to the UK, especially if they have skills that are useful to Britain. It is also good to help migrants escaping from vile regimes.
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I think 'humanity is welcome' would make a rather nice mat.
Of course humanity is welcome, now all of humanity here In the UK?
Regards, ippy.
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It is good to have people wanting to come to the UK, especially if they have skills that are useful to Britain. It is also good to help migrants escaping from vile regimes.
L R, you've quoted very nearly word for word the very things I quoted in a recent mailing to the forum, including a reference to asylum seekers.
Nothing wrong with letting the immigrants we do need come here including genuine asylum seekers.
We need something like the Ausie points system, remember?
Regards, ippy.
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But getting back to Nagga Muchetty , I can't stand the woman .
Strange, I've heard she loves you.
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Strange, I've heard she loves you.
And she can spell his name.
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Of course humanity is welcome, now all of humanity here In the UK?
Regards, ippy.
Best hyperbole of the day award.
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Ippy,
Yeah, bloody foreigners coming here with all their qualifications and expertise working and paying their taxes, adding all that cultural diversity. Who do they bloody well think they are eh?
Tell you what too, if we don’t keep a really close eye on them next thing you know they’ll be joining our lovely army and risking their lives for the British way of life. Bloody foreigners.
If you haven't already read Douglas Murray's book 'The Strange Death of Europe', or listened to some interviews he has given about this book of his via YouTube you'll be either reading or listening to his point of view a point of view I can't find anything in it that I can disagree with, if you don't like his thoughts on this subject we'll never going to agree about this subject ever, so their'd be no point discussing this with you.
Regards, ippy.
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And she can spell his name.
we have a love/hate relationship
It works for some 😂😘
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If you haven't already read Douglas Murray's book 'The Strange Death of Europe', or listened to some interviews he has given about this book of his via YouTube you'll be either reading or listening to his point of view a point of view I can't find anything in it that I can disagree with, if you don't like his thoughts on this subject we'll never going to agree about this subject ever, so their'd be no point discussing this with you.
Regards, ippy.
If you don't agree with Jesus, you are lost.
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Best hyperbole of the day award.
I'll go with that but it might be better quoted in context:
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It appears to me you seem to want an open door to humanity as a whole to come here as they please no matter how many, you explain why you want to put out your unending to all humanity welcome mat before I consider whether I will give you an answer or not, more likely not.(there you are a half of a clay pidgin for you).
Regards, ippy.
I think 'humanity is welcome' would make a rather nice mat.
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Then my reply to Gordon's welcome to humanity was:
Of course humanity is welcome, now all of humanity here In the UK?
Regards to all, ippy.
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I'll go with that but it might be better quoted in context:
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It appears to me you seem to want an open door to humanity as a whole to come here as they please no matter how many, you explain why you want to put out your unending to all humanity welcome mat before I consider whether I will give you an answer or not, more likely not.(there you are a half of a clay pidgin for you).
Regards, ippy.
I think 'humanity is welcome' would make a rather nice mat.
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Then my reply to Gordon's welcome to humanity was:
Of course humanity is welcome, now all of humanity here In the UK?
Regards to all, ippy.
I quoted your post that I replied to in its entirety.
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I'll go with that but it might be better quoted in context:
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It appears to me you seem to want an open door to humanity as a whole to come here as they please no matter how many, you explain why you want to put out your unending to all humanity welcome mat before I consider whether I will give you an answer or not, more likely not.(there you are a half of a clay pidgin for you).
Regards, ippy.
I think 'humanity is welcome' would make a rather nice mat.
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Then my reply to Gordon's welcome to humanity was:
Of course humanity is welcome, now all of humanity here In the UK?
Regards to all, ippy.
Oh and you are also using the slippery slope fallacy.
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Quite a lot of people from here emigrate, it's not that difficult.
I like our diverse population, it's far more interesting now than it was in parents time.
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Maybe we could trade:
The UK needs productive workers: fruit pickers, hotel workers, cooks, plumbers, builders, doctors, scientists and so on.
On the other hand we have an excess of pensioners that could move abroad for support and care, boosting the local economies.
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Well. Ippy, for all we know, you may be an immigrant. After all, you don't seem to know the difference between pigeon and pidgin.
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It appears to me you seem to want an open door to humanity as a whole to come here as they please no matter how many, you explain why you want to put out your unending to all humanity welcome mat before I consider whether I will give you an answer or not, more likely not.(there you are a half of a clay pidgin for you).
Is there any evidence that everyone wants to come... no. And, if that many did, many of them would change their minds, and indeed perhaps we'd start taking overseas aid seriously. In the longer term, I think the idea of restricting where people can look for a better life or better work based upon whose great-great-grandfather had a bigger axe/better gun/more overtly funded military/industrial complex is fundamentally immoral. If we ever get to a point where we have overcrowding issues in a particular area (and, in the UK, that's not currently even close to being an issue) then rather than try to strongarm the effect as a 'solution' I'd suggest we remedy the push at the far ends - raise the standard of living and opportunities for development and improvement in the second and third world with genuine investment in the local infrastructures. Remove the incentive for them to seek a better life here by giving them a better life where they are.
O.
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Well. Ippy, for all we know, you may be an immigrant. After all, you don't seem to know the difference between pigeon and pidgin.
irrelevant and a bit snobby.
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I would just like to point out that I think some of you are missing a central point here.
One of the reasons that Naga Munchetty got upset about it (aside from the obvious racism involved) is, of course that she hails from that far flung land called Streatham. A similar situation applied to 3 out of the 4 congresswomen that Trump targeted with his advice to "go back to where you come from", in that they were born in the USA.
So all the talk about immigrants introduced by Sririam and then picked up by Ippy on this thread is interesting, and to a certain extent depressing, but not actually to the point.
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I would just like to point out that I think some of you are missing a central point here.
One of the reasons that Naga Munchetty got upset about it (aside from the obvious racism involved) is, of course that she hails from that far flung land called Streatham. A similar situation applied to 3 out of the 4 congresswomen that Trump targeted with his advice to "go back to where you come from", in that they were born in the USA.
So all the talk about immigrants introduced by Sririam and then picked up by Ippy on this thread is interesting, and to a certain extent depressing, but not actually to the point.
hat doffed
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Racism is about race. There could be other reasons such as nationalism, language even perhaps diet, why people are disliked by the locals.
It is a common human trait to avoid people who are different from ourselves. It makes people insecure. Perhaps it is some sort of a survival strategy.
Even in India, which is perhaps one of the most diverse nations in the world, we don't like it if people from different regions or linguistic groups or diet or religion or even people with a different lifestyle, move into our localities.
We are most comfortable with people who are as similar to us as possible. That's the way it is...!!
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We are most comfortable with people who are as similar to us as possible. That's the way it is...!!
Speak for yourself.
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Racism is about race. There could be other reasons such as nationalism, language even perhaps diet, why people are disliked by the locals.
It is a common human trait to avoid people who are different from ourselves. It makes people insecure. Perhaps it is some sort of a survival strategy.
Even in India, which is perhaps one of the most diverse nations in the world, we don't like it if people from different regions or linguistic groups or diet or religion or even people with a different lifestyle, move into our localities.
We are most comfortable with people who are as similar to us as possible. That's the way it is...!!
I kind of agree with your mailing Sriram what you say is OK up to a point Both of my adopted sons are mixed race West Indian and white English, so as you can see race is not any kind of an issue with me I don't like answering questions about ethnicity on official forms etc however for this post and setting the scene both my wife and I are referred to as white people, we both see ourselves as people struggling with life just like the rest of us.
The only trouble I have that goes along with the extraordinarily rapid influx is the sheer numbers of immigrants we now have here, there's no need to quote figures it's abundantly obvious unless you're like so many people here that don't want to see it.
I cannot understand the people that actually refuse to see why leavers want an Aussie points style system introduced here in the UK and they seem to get so extremely upset if you have the temerity to suggest just something as simple as not allowing potential immigrants here to live that have a criminal records.
If anything like suggesting some sort of control on immigration is suggested whoever suggests it is looked upon as on a par with a serial killers by a certain part of our UK population, I really don't know what they are getting at, they puzzle me.
Regards, ippy
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Quite a lot of people from here emigrate, it's not that difficult.
I like our diverse population, it's far more interesting now than it was in parents time.
I'll go with your post Robbie, it's the ginormous numbers of that I've a problem with.
Regards, ippy.
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If anything like suggesting some sort of control on immigration is suggested whoever suggests it is looked upon as on a par with a serial killers by a certain part of our UK population, I really don't know what they are getting at, they puzzle me.
I'm not sure anyone has suggested that at all.
The actual facts are that control of our immigration policies have been lax but the fault for that lies almost entirely at the door of the UK government. It chose not to impose limits or any of the controls that are available to use throughout the EU on migration, and chooses not to cut down immigration from non-EU countries, which is still where the majority of our immigration derives from.
The attempts by some to blame the EU for this situation, Farage et al is a lie. The control is largely, and always has been in our own governments hands. That they chose not to do this in the pursuit of economic growth instead tells you about the priorities of said governments.
What the government is frightened of doing is having a grown up conversation about the challenges that face a country that has an aging population putting an ever increasing demand on public services, particularly health & social care. The allowance of fairly relaxed immigration laws is to overcome that situation as most immigrants are young, work and contribute more to the system than they take out. Now if as a country we want that to change then a hard conversation has to take place about how we do that.
If you think that is going to happen under Boris & co you are quite frankly deranged. The only way it could ever happen is with a complete rejigging of the tax system which again I think is unlikely.
Incidentally I hadn't wished to go down this line but I find your thought on immigration ill-defined and ill informed to say the least, but then threads have a way of meandering - which I don't mind btw.
What I actually find interesting is the racism I see inherent in some peoples replies on this thread due to incorrect assumptions made.
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I kind of agree with your mailing Sriram what you say is OK up to a point Both of my adopted sons are mixed race West Indian and white English, so as you can see race is not any kind of an issue with me I don't like answering questions about ethnicity on official forms etc however for this post and setting the scene both my wife and I are referred to as white people, we both see ourselves as people struggling with life just like the rest of us.
The only trouble I have that goes along with the extraordinarily rapid influx is the sheer numbers of immigrants we now have here, there's no need to quote figures it's abundantly obvious unless you're like so many people here that don't want to see it.
I cannot understand the people that actually refuse to see why leavers want an Aussie points style system introduced here in the UK and they seem to get so extremely upset if you have the temerity to suggest just something as simple as not allowing potential immigrants here to live that have a criminal records.
If anything like suggesting some sort of control on immigration is suggested whoever suggests it is looked upon as on a par with a serial killers by a certain part of our UK population, I really don't know what they are getting at, they puzzle me.
Regards, ippy
lots of words, lots of straw.
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Racism is about race. There could be other reasons such as nationalism, language even perhaps diet, why people are disliked by the locals.
It is a common human trait to avoid people who are different from ourselves. It makes people insecure. Perhaps it is some sort of a survival strategy.
Even in India, which is perhaps one of the most diverse nations in the world, we don't like it if people from different regions or linguistic groups or diet or religion or even people with a different lifestyle, move into our localities.
We are most comfortable with people who are as similar to us as possible. That's the way it is...!!
That sounds like free-flowing xenophobia.
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I'm not sure anyone has suggested that at all.
The actual facts are that control of our immigration policies have been lax but the fault for that lies almost entirely at the door of the UK government. It chose not to impose limits or any of the controls that are available to use throughout the EU on migration, and chooses not to cut down immigration from non-EU countries, which is still where the majority of our immigration derives from.
The attempts by some to blame the EU for this situation, Farage et al is a lie. The control is largely, and always has been in our own governments hands. That they chose not to do this in the pursuit of economic growth instead tells you about the priorities of said governments.
What the government is frightened of doing is having a grown up conversation about the challenges that face a country that has an aging population putting an ever increasing demand on public services, particularly health & social care. The allowance of fairly relaxed immigration laws is to overcome that situation as most immigrants are young, work and contribute more to the system than they take out. Now if as a country we want that to change then a hard conversation has to take place about how we do that.
If you think that is going to happen under Boris & co you are quite frankly deranged. The only way it could ever happen is with a complete rejigging of the tax system which again I think is unlikely.
Incidentally I hadn't wished to go down this line but I find your thought on immigration ill-defined and ill informed to say the least, but then threads have a way of meandering - which I don't mind btw.
What I actually find interesting is the racism I see inherent in some peoples replies on this thread due to incorrect assumptions made.
i don't see this as meandering much at all. Yes, we aren't talking about Munchetty's remarks all the time but we are talking about the ideas behind what she reacted to. The tribalism behind them is based on hate. The tribalism behind the idea of liking 'people like us' is based on hate. The tribalism of thinking that it should be accepted that we dislike people on diet, or clothes, or race is based on hate.
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That sounds like free-flowing xenophobia.
And using the appeal to nature fallacy to justify it.
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Speak for yourself.
and you too!
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That sounds like free-flowing xenophobia.
gordon
The way the world is and how you'd like it to be are two different things .
Acknowledging that is very important
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and you too!
I wasn't claiming to speak for anyone. Sririam however, was.
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gordon
The way the world is and how you'd like it to be are two different things .
Acknowledging that is very important
And saying it's ok to be racist because people are racist is just the appeal to nature fallacy. Is it ok to rape because people rape?
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And saying it's ok to be racist because people are racist is just the appeal to nature fallacy. Is it ok to rape because people rape?
why don't we just take EVERY argument to the far end of a fart and see what that leads to shall we ?
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And saying it's ok to be racist because people are racist is just the appeal to nature fallacy. Is it ok to rape because people rape?
You are being very silly. Violating another person or harming them in some way is both immoral and is also a crime.
Choosing to live with people of a similar cultural background is not a crime nor is it immoral or even unethical. It is just ones choice.
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You are being very silly. Violating another person or harming them in some way is both immoral and is also a crime.
Choosing to live with people of a similar cultural background is not a crime nor is it immoral or even unethical. It is just ones choice.
i agree with you (for once or it may even be twice now) !
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We are most comfortable with people who are as similar to us as possible. That's the way it is...!!
On the other hand, if we are prepared to go outside our comfort zone, we will reap enormous rewards.
It must be incredibly boring for you, never risking the possibility of being uncomfortable.
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I'll go with your post Robbie, it's the ginormous numbers of that I've a problem with.
Regards, ippy.
Define ginormous. What would be an acceptable level of immigration?
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Define ginormous. What would be an acceptable level of immigration?
near 'normous
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You are being very silly. Violating another person or harming them in some way is both immoral and is also a crime.
Choosing to live with people of a similar cultural background is not a crime nor is it immoral or even unethical. It is just ones choice.
You are being very racist.
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On the other hand, if we are prepared to go outside our comfort zone, we will reap enormous rewards.
It must be incredibly boring for you, never risking the possibility of being uncomfortable.
do you think Sri was referring to himself , I didnt read it like that ?
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why don't we just take EVERY argument to the far end of a fart and see what that leads to shall we ?
Well we should because it illustrates why the argument is wrong. If you don't want to follow the consequences of your argument, then it falls.
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You are being very racist.
Oh...really?!!!
Wherever in the world I may have to live...I'll choose to live among Indians...preferably Hindus...preferably South Indians...preferably vegetarians....preferably educated...preferably fairly well to do...preferably of a similar linguistic and cultural background. To the extent possible. That is my choice.
Of course, there will be many who would not want to live in that environment. They will have different choices. They will choose to live with people similar to them. That is fine. I don't wish them any harm...! They have a right to choose their environment.
It is absolutely idiotic to call this racism. ::)
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On the other hand, if we are prepared to go outside our comfort zone, we will reap enormous rewards.
It must be incredibly boring for you, never risking the possibility of being uncomfortable.
If you are forced to live in India....would you choose to live in localities with similar minded English speaking.... British or European or American groups... or would you prefer to live among the locals who speak different languages, eat different foods and have different cultural norms and life styles?
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Oh...really?!!!
Wherever in the world I may have to live...I'll choose to live among Indians...preferably Hindus...preferably South Indians...preferably vegetarians....preferably educated...preferably fairly well to do...preferably of a similar linguistic and cultural background. To the extent possible. That is my choice.
Of course, there will be many who would not want to live in that environment. They will have different choices. They will choose to live with people similar to them. That is fine. I don't wish them any harm...! They have a right to choose their environment.
It is absolutely idiotic to call this racism. ::)
If you think that telling people to go home because they are not like you is justified by the above, you are a racist. I am not addressing you as someone from India, so all that is irrelevant. I am addressing you as a person.
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Well we should because it illustrates why the argument is wrong. If you don't want to follow the consequences of your argument, then it falls.
what-aboutery only causes confusion , not clarification of an argument .
It seems to be a tactic of yours in many discussions on here and it becomes very tiresome .
Empty out your toolbox and see what else you've got in there , you are wearing that one out !
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what-aboutery only causes confusion , not clarification of an argument .
It seems to be a tactic of yours in many discussions on here and it becomes very tiresome .
Empty out your toolbox and see what else you've got in there , you are wearing that one out !
It isn't whataboutery. You are confused and evasive.
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If you think that telling people to go home because they are not like you is justified by the above, you are a racist. I am not addressing you as someone from India, so all that is irrelevant. I am addressing you as a person.
You said I am a racist because I choose to live among similar minded people. That is not correct.
If people are citizens of a country you obviously can't ask them to leave. But if you feel people from other nations are migrating in for personal benefits and are thereby adding to the problems in the country you would be justified in thinking that they should leave.
We do that even within our country. If hordes of people from the North or North east or elsewhere come into southern cities (for example) and take up local jobs the locals do protest. There is more crowding everywhere, prices go up, home rentals are not available...etc. etc.
It is quite simple really. If your next door neighbor has a problem in his home...doesn't mean he can walk into your home and start living there, regardless of his color or language or whatever. You might accommodate him out of humanitarian considerations, for a day or two but not beyond that. And regardless of your humane tendencies you would be within your moral and legal rights to ask him to leave.
That is not racism. That is just safeguarding ones own environment and survival.
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It isn't whataboutery. You are confused and evasive.
here we go again
I can't be bothered with you . I shall now be evasive for a while , I've got other stuff to do today 😎
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here we go again
I can't be bothered with you . I shall now be evasive for a while , I've got other stuff to do today 😎
Brave Sir Walter ran away...
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You said I am a racist because I choose to live among similar minded people. That is not correct.
If people are citizens of a country you obviously can't ask them to leave. But if you feel people from other nations are migrating in for personal benefits and are thereby adding to the problems in the country you would be justified in thinking that they should leave.
We do that even within our country. If hordes of people from the North or North east or elsewhere come into southern cities (for example) and take up local jobs the locals do protest. There is more crowding everywhere, prices go up, home rentals are not available...etc. etc.
It is quite simple really. If your next door neighbor has a problem in his home...doesn't mean he can walk into your home and start living there, regardless of his color or language or whatever. You might accommodate him out of humanitarian considerations, for a day or two but not beyond that. And regardless of your humane tendencies you would be within your moral and legal rights to ask him to leave.
That is not racism. That is just safeguarding ones own environment and survival.
Long screed of racism from you.
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You said I am a racist because I choose to live among similar minded people. That is not correct.
If people are citizens of a country you obviously can't ask them to leave. But if you feel people from other nations are migrating in for personal benefits and are thereby adding to the problems in the country you would be justified in thinking that they should leave.
We do that even within our country. If hordes of people from the North or North east or elsewhere come into southern cities (for example) and take up local jobs the locals do protest. There is more crowding everywhere, prices go up, home rentals are not available...etc. etc.
It is quite simple really. If your next door neighbor has a problem in his home...doesn't mean he can walk into your home and start living there, regardless of his color or language or whatever. You might accommodate him out of humanitarian considerations, for a day or two but not beyond that. And regardless of your humane tendencies you would be within your moral and legal rights to ask him to leave.
That is not racism. That is just safeguarding ones own environment and survival.
Correct
That's it , I'm off
Have a nice day all x
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Correct
That's it , I'm off
Have a nice day all x
Racist agreeing with racist
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You are being very silly. Violating another person or harming them in some way is both immoral and is also a crime.
Choosing to live with people of a similar cultural background is not a crime nor is it immoral or even unethical. It is just ones choice.
This is correct (echoing Walt).
However telling a stranger who chooses to live peaceably in or near your environment to "go home" is not only racist but against all Hindu (indeed all Indo-European) culture and principles.
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This is correct (echoing Walt).
However telling a stranger who chooses to live peaceably in or near your environment to "go home" is not only racist but against all Hindu (indeed all Indo-European) culture and principles.
Which given the discussion is why Walter and Sriram are racists.
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Ippy going back to one of your previous posts (& this thread certainly has moved on!), you mentioned Douglas Murray; you've talked about him before and seem to be quite devoted to him. No one is infallable. Murray is extremely right wing, but readable and interesting. (Have you tried Alex Jones of Infowars?) I'd rather read/listen to James O'Brien from LBC (who is fallible), someone who has come in for much criticism from Murray.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/james-obrien-and-the-vip-child-sex-abuse-lies/
(Seem to have gone off the topic of Naga Munchetty, apologies for that. I meant to write this earlier on in the thread when it seemed more relevant).
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This is correct (echoing Walt).
However telling a stranger who chooses to live peaceably in or near your environment to "go home" is not only racist but against all Hindu (indeed all Indo-European) culture and principles.
I generally agree. If a person or family is living legally and in line with the norms we cannot and should not ask them to leave. That would be morally and legally incorrect.
But as happens often everywhere and even within India....certain communities slowly 'invade' certain territories and one by one take over entire localities such that someone who has been living there for decades is made to feel uncomfortable through various means and then made to leave. Many localities that were earlier known to house certain communities have slowly but surely been 'taken over' by other communities. This is a common feature.
So foreseeing this problem and safeguarding ones own survival, culture and community is not wrong.
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If you are forced to live in India....would you choose to live in localities with similar minded English speaking.... British or European or American groups... or would you prefer to live among the locals who speak different languages, eat different foods and have different cultural norms and life styles?
Well my comfort zone would be in the British community but I might find it more rewarding to live amongst the locals and experience their culture, at least for a period of time.
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That sounds like free-flowing xenophobia.
Well Gordon from a remainers point of view it's just another thing to have a go at the leavers for winning the referendum vote back in 16.
Leave won, that's it, there shouldn't be anything to argue about we should have left, anyway that's another part of why I'm choosing not to argue about brexit with anyone.
Regards, ippy
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But as happens often everywhere and even within India....certain communities slowly 'invade' certain territories and one by one take over entire localities such that someone who has been living there for decades is made to feel uncomfortable through various means and then made to leave. Many localities that were earlier known to house certain communities have slowly but surely been 'taken over' by other communities. This is a common feature.
Yes it is a common feature. It happens all the time and everywhere. It's called "change". You can't stop it.
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Yes it is a common feature. It happens all the time and everywhere. It's called "change". You can't stop it.
Yes....and resistance to change is natural. Change happens.... but if it is slow and happens over several generations it gets accepted. If the change happens very quickly, within ones lifetime...there is bound to be resistance.
Changes in the past few decades have been too sudden and it is natural for people to resist it.
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Yes....and resistance to change is natural. Change happens.... but if it is slow and happens over several generations it gets accepted. If the change happens very quickly, within ones lifetime...there is bound to be resistance.
Changes in the past few decades have been too sudden and it is natural for people to resist it.
Appeal to nature fallacy repeated to justify racist being racist.
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Ippy going back to one of your previous posts (& this thread certainly has moved on!), you mentioned Douglas Murray; you've talked about him before and seem to be quite devoted to him. No one is infallable. Murray is extremely right wing, but readable and interesting. (Have you tried Alex Jones of Infowars?) I'd rather read/listen to James O'Brien from LBC (who is fallible), someone who has come in for much criticism from Murray.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/james-obrien-and-the-vip-child-sex-abuse-lies/
(Seem to have gone off the topic of Naga Munchetty, apologies for that. I meant to write this earlier on in the thread when it seemed more relevant).
Yes you're right but I haven't said I agree with him implicitly in every post I have put on the forum I didn't think I had to do so in every post and there again I have said in a few of my post that 'I mostly agree with his lines of thought', which I think you might agree is saying I don't agree with every single word he says.
When I referred to him on this thread if you were to listen to him or read the book of his I referred to pertaining to the subject of this thread, I was trying to convey on this particular subject it might be just about be possible to insert a cigarette paper between his view on this subject and mine, which I thought would enable me to avoid putting lengthy posts, like this one, about how I feel about the female named in the title of this thread.
Regards, ippy.
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Yes you're right but I haven't said I agree with him implicitly in every post I have put on the forum I didn't think I had to do so in every post and there again I have said in a few of my post that 'I mostly agree with his lines of thought', which I think you might agree is saying I don't agree with every single word he says.
When I referred to him on this thread if you were to listen to him or read the book of his I referred to pertaining to the subject of this thread, I was trying to convey on this particular subject it might be just about be possible to insert a cigarette paper between his view on this subject and mine, which I thought would enable me to avoid putting lengthy posts, like this one, about how I feel about the female named in the title of this thread.
Regards, ippy.
Making an argument doesn't need long posts. Here you have made a long-ish post and made no argument.
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Well Gordon from a remainers point of view it's just another thing to have a go at the leavers for winning the referendum vote back in 16.
Leave won, that's it, there shouldn't be anything to argue about we should have left, anyway that's another part of why I'm choosing not to argue about brexit with anyone.
Regards, ippy
I was responding to Sriram's post, which had nothing to do with Brexit specifically and everything to do with xenophobia in a broader societal sense - I thought what he said was quite scary, and that xenophobia seems like a key driver of Brexit is just one example of why xenophobia is so pernicious.
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I was responding to Sriram's post, which had nothing to do with Brexit specifically and everything to do with xenophobia in a broader societal sense - I thought what he said was quite scary, and that xenophobia seems like a key driver of Brexit is just one example of why xenophobia is so pernicious.
Xenophobia is just a scary big word. We can view the same phenomenon from different sides depending on our own emotional stand.
It is actually just about safeguarding ones own culture and community...which is not such a bad thing. Lots of communities around the world have been very proud of their culture and have maintained it for centuries. Nothing wrong with that.
Economics is not everything...!
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Xenophobia is just a scary big word. We can view the same phenomenon from different sides depending on our own emotional stand.
It is actually just about safeguarding ones own culture and community...which is not such a bad thing. Lots of communities around the world have been very proud of their culture and have maintained it for centuries. Nothing wrong with that.
Economics is not everything...!
Racist is quite a short word. It is quite scary. It is what you are.
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...
When I referred to him on this thread if you were to listen to him or read the book of his I referred to pertaining to the subject of this thread, I was trying to convey on this particular subject it might be just about be possible to insert a cigarette paper between his view on this subject and mine, which I thought would enable me to avoid putting lengthy posts, like this one, about how I feel about the female named in the title of this thread.
Regards, ippy.
What on earth has Naga Munchetty done to you or against you? She is brilliant and humane. Douglas Murray, on the other hand is vile: does nothing but spread discord and hate.
And, for the record she has been a British/UK citizen longer than he has. I certainly know who I would throw out (if anyone actually needed to be given the boot).
PS. Also, how on earth do you know what feelings Murray has for or against Munchetty?
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What on earth has Naga Munchetty done to you or against you? She is brilliant and humane. Douglas Murray, on the other hand is vile: does nothing but spread discord and hate.
And, for the record she has been a British/UK citizen longer than he has. I certainly know who I would throw out (if anyone actually needed to be given the boot).
PS. Also, how on earth do you know what feelings Murray has for or against Munchetty?
Just a touch of a misunderstanding here, largely I take a considerably differing view of the world to the way Naga sees things and at the same time I haven't got any sort of a bone with her she seem to be a perfectly decent sort of person just one of those people I don't very often share her point of view.
To my knowledge Douglas hasn't said anything negative about Naga M.
I find Douglas for most of the time spells things out in the same way I happen to think we disagree about his views so what, we disagree.
I have no wish to throw out either of them and think it's appalling to tell someone to go back to where they came from apparently conveyed to her based on the colour of her skin.
As I have said my own two sons are so called coloured they were born here in the UK and brought up by a so called white mum and dad, we don't see colour metaphorically, we see good folk and bad folk and the rest in between and that's it.
I find it difficult to see anything racist in Sriram's posts, surly he's talking about culture.
I don't think I could live India nothing to do with any single Indian, every time I have seen a travelogue and other films in general about India it always looks like about 3000 people per square inch everywhere and I tend to avoid crowds, the exaggeration was only made to emphasise my point no offence intended to India or Indians.
Oh yes now I've said something not 100% positive about India and Indians the PC hit squad'll be out and about looking for me, good job I've got my tin hat on ready.
Regards, ippy.
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ippy,
What you feel about India is perfectly justified. I feel like that myself sometimes...regardless of how much I love my country.
We all have a right to choose where we live and with which community or culture we want to live in. That doesn't mean we hate anyone or mean any harm to anyone.
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Well my comfort zone would be in the British community but I might find it more rewarding to live amongst the locals and experience their culture, at least for a period of time.
Yes....I like to travel to Florence and Venice and eat Italian food every now and then.....doesn't mean I would like to live among Italian people all my life. And I have nothing against Italians or anyone else.
If I lived in London I would prefer to live among vegetarian South Indian people. No ill will against white English people at all.
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Yes....I like to travel to Florence and Venice and eat Italian food every now and then.....doesn't mean I would like to live among Italian people all my life. And I have nothing against Italians or anyone else.
If I lived in London I would prefer to live among vegetarian South Indian people. No ill will against white English people at all.
Sadly, there is a group of people in the UK that would take great pleasure in telling you to go home. It shames me to have to admit that such arseholes exist in my country.
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Sadly, there is a group of people in the UK that would take great pleasure in telling you to go home. It shames me to have to admit that such arseholes exist in my country.
Yes...and they exist in every country. Up to a point..they are even right.
Our home is our home. We have made it what it is. Guests could be welcome temporarily. But if the entire neighborhood chooses to come over and live in your home because it is beautiful....you will have a problem...!
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I can't see anything racist about what Sririam has said. I thought a lot about it last night, re- reading.
It's natural to gravitate towards people who understand us and generally think like us. Not always to do with race (certainly in this country where many areas are cosmopolitan), but shared interests, like minds, human rights issues, the peace movement, causes, etc. That doesn't mean disliking or excluding anyone else. We can feel comfortable with, and enriched by, many people but there's usually a core group with whom we identify. In my case that is true and has nothing to do with race. I'm friendly with a lot of folk, at home and work, the people with whom I mix at work are diverse which is great; my closest friends are people who are on my wavelength (even we don't agree on everything, wouldn't it be boring if we did), our lifestyles are similar in some respects so we understand each other.
There are areas in this country where particular groups dominate the population. So what? I've not encountered hostility from any individuals, on the contrary they're usually hospitable.
I hope I'm making myself clear.
(Would you believe I've only just got up! Long time since I've had such a comfortable lay in - husband doing breakfast.)
Not sure about Walter, he is someone who often says things tongue in cheek :-).
Ippy has explained himself quite well. I do wonder how immigration has impacted on him personally (it hasn't affected me at all), and would be interested to know.
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I can't see anything racist about what Sririam has said. I thought a lot about it last night, re- reading.
It's natural to gravitate towards people who understand us and generally think like us. Not always to do with race (certainly in this country where many areas are cosmopolitan), but shared interests, like minds, human rights issues, the peace movement, causes, etc. That doesn't mean disliking or excluding anyone else. We can feel comfortable with, and enriched by, many people but there's usually a core group with whom we identify. In my case that is true and has nothing to do with race. I'm friendly with a lot of folk, at home and work, the people with whom I mix at work are diverse which is great; my closest friends are people who are on my wavelength (even we don't agree on everything, wouldn't it be boring if we did), our lifestyles are similar in some respects so we understand each other.
There are areas in this country where particular groups dominate the population. So what? I've not encountered hostility from any individuals, on the contrary they're usually hospitable.
I hope I'm making myself clear.
(Would you believe I've only just got up! Long time since I've had such a comfortable lay in - husband doing breakfast.)
Not sure about Walter, he is someone who often says things tongue in cheek :-).
Ippy has explained himself quite well. I do wonder how immigration has impacted on him personally (it hasn't affected me at all), and would be interested to know.
So you are supporting the normalisation of people saying to Naga Munchetty to go back home, and Trump's remarks.
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So you are supporting the normalisation of people saying to Naga Munchetty to go back home, and Trump's remarks.
That was the conclusion to which I came as well.
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So you are supporting the normalisation of people saying to Naga Munchetty to go back home, and Trump's remarks.
Struggling to see where Robbie does that. Maybe I've missed something.
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Struggling to see where Robbie does that. Maybe I've missed something.
Me too.
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I don't know where you got that from!
How ridiculous, I've never thought or said anything like that in my life. If you read my post properly you'll know what I meant.
Thank you to Bramble and ekim who obviously didn't just skim read my post. I'd have expected such a comment from LR but not from NS>
Honestly ::).
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I don't know where you got that from!
How ridiculous, I've never thought or said anything like that in my life. If you read my post properly you'll know what I meant.
Thank you to Bramble and ekim who obviously didn't just skim read my post. I'd have expected such a comment from LR but not from NS>
Honestly ::).
I apologise if I got it wrong.
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Concerning what 'home' is, I find very poignant the words of Michał Iwanowski, who walked 1200 miles from Cardiff to Poland in 2018 because of graffiti that said “Go Home, Polish.”
“I feel utterly at home walking in the landscape, wherever that landscape is. I don’t need to be told by a government, ‘This is your home.’ The ground beneath my feet sanctifies my belonging in this world – not the passport given to me by a country.”
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So you are supporting the normalisation of people saying to Naga Munchetty to go back home, and Trump's remarks.
She is not saying anything of that sort. She is just being sensible...unlike some others....!
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I don't know where you got that from!
How ridiculous, I've never thought or said anything like that in my life. If you read my post properly you'll know what I meant.
Thank you to Bramble and ekim who obviously didn't just skim read my post. I'd have expected such a comment from LR but not from NS>
Honestly ::).
(Because of you don't think Sriram or ippy or Walter are being racist when they argue that saying Go Home to immigrants is racist as they have said then you support the normalisation of that and Trump's remarks. )
(I didn't say the above paragraph, don't know how it got there. Robbie.)
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I can't see anything racist about what Sririam has said. I thought a lot about it last night, re- reading.
It's natural to gravitate towards people who understand us and generally think like us. Not always to do with race (certainly in this country where many areas are cosmopolitan), but shared interests, like minds, human rights issues, the peace movement, causes, etc. That doesn't mean disliking or excluding anyone else. We can feel comfortable with, and enriched by, many people but there's usually a core group with whom we identify. In my case that is true and has nothing to do with race. I'm friendly with a lot of folk, at home and work, the people with whom I mix at work are diverse which is great; my closest friends are people who are on my wavelength (even we don't agree on everything, wouldn't it be boring if we did), our lifestyles are similar in some respects so we understand each other.
There are areas in this country where particular groups dominate the population. So what? I've not encountered hostility from any individuals, on the contrary they're usually hospitable.
I hope I'm making myself clear.
...
Robbie,
IMO, this is fine as far as you have got. However that was not the topic on which Naga was being questioned and does not address the immigration questions.
Sriram is likely correct that many people feel more comfortable with people of their own kind (or rather who they think are of their own kind) - but there is no reason that that point should influence policies of which people (classified by race, nationality, ethnic origin, politics or religion etc ... or diet even), should be allowed to migrate anywhere or policies designating areas or regions they in which they should or should not be allowed to live.
I could just as well say the Remainers obviously get on better with other Remainers and Leavers with Leavers and go on to call for the partition of the UK into one area inside the EU and one outside with a wall between them.
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Up to a point..they are even right.
I think this is the part of Sririam's post that is offensive. How can it ever be right to say to Naga Munchetty to go back to where you come from, unless you do intend for her to return to a suburb of London.
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Concerning what 'home' is, I find very poignant the words of Michał Iwanowski, who walked 1200 miles from Cardiff to Poland in 2018 because of graffiti that said “Go Home, Polish.”
“I feel utterly at home walking in the landscape, wherever that landscape is. I don’t need to be told by a government, ‘This is your home.’ The ground beneath my feet sanctifies my belonging in this world – not the passport given to me by a country.”
Good quote - pretty much captures my own feelings.
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I could just as well say the Remainers obviously get on better with other Remainers and Leavers with Leavers and go on to call for the partition of the UK into one area inside the EU and one outside with a wall between them.
I can go with that ;)
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I can go with that ;)
Unfortunately we have remainers in our close family brexit doesn't get mentioned at all we all get on swimmingly as we always have done we do get the occasional little bit of friction I can only suppose that's because they can't all be on the good looking side of the family.
Regards, ippy.
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Unfortunately we have remainers in our close family brexit doesn't get mentioned at all we all get on swimmingly as we always have done we do get the occasional little bit of friction I can only suppose that's because they can't all be on the good looking side of the family.
Regards, ippy.
Twas only tongue in cheek Ippy. I too have family who aren't as good looking as me!
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I think this is the part of Sririam's post that is offensive. How can it ever be right to say to Naga Muchetty to go back to where you come from, unless you do intend for her to return to a suburb of London.
I have lived in the UK for 66+ years (Indian origin/ethnicity but born in the UK) with significantly longs stays working in Germany, Luxembourg, India and the States, have also visited many countries on business or vacation. In that time I have only ever been told "to go home" twice - both times after inflammatory events - the Enoch Powell speech in '68 and Nick Griffin's appearance on QT - and both by twerps probably unable to tie their own shoelaces.
So, although I agree it is racist and comes from racism (in the widest sense) it is certainly not common in my experience.
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ippy,
What you feel about India is perfectly justified. I feel like that myself sometimes...regardless of how much I love my country.
We all have a right to choose where we live and with which community or culture we want to live in. That doesn't mean we hate anyone or mean any harm to anyone.
Exactly! Mind you Sriram I have become a bit racist since getting my boys I'll admit that but much as I love children I do now have a tendency to see darker skinned children as slightly more attractive and some times, when I look at other people's so called white children there's another thought that goes through my mind a 100 times quicker than I would ever be able to say it, 'crumbs don't they look pasty'.
Now that's racist, innit.
Regards, ippy.
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Udayana,
Maybe the incidents and events you have referred to were indeed racist specifically.....but feelings of belonging to a community or culture have nothing to do with racism.
Maybe they are not always commonly expressed....but the feelings are fairly common. 'Oh...there goes the neighborhood' is a common feeling generally in most people....but more so if the change is rapid and extensive within ones lifetime.
Of course, maybe people who have moved around a bit and don't have strong cultural moorings, tend not to feel it that strongly.
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Udayana,
Maybe the incidents and events you have referred to were indeed racist specifically.....but feelings of belonging to a community or culture have nothing to do with racism.
Maybe they are not always commonly expressed....but the feelings are fairly common. 'Oh...there goes the neighborhood' is a common feeling generally in most people....but more so if the change is rapid and extensive within ones lifetime.
Of course, maybe people who have moved around a bit and don't have strong cultural moorings, tend not to feel it that strongly.
Yes, of-course, people have all these feelings at various times, but in our interactions with others and when deciding the rules and policies of our towns or nations we should put them aside and base our decisions and actions on a rational, reasonable and fair basis.
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I agree about living according to certain norms. We all have to adjust our feelings and cultural biases to suit the changing environment.
But having said that, it is these rapid and forced adjustments, coupled with political correctness that leads to alienation from ones own immediate surroundings, ones own society and ones own countrymen. This is what leads to significant stress and suppressed anger.
Govt. policies should take into account such matters also without focusing only on economic issues.
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So you are supporting the normalisation of people saying to Naga Munchetty to go back home,
What? To Streatham?
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Which given the discussion is why Walter and Sriram are racists.
choose your weapon sir 😡😠
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I don't know where you got that from!
How ridiculous, I've never thought or said anything like that in my life. If you read my post properly you'll know what I meant.
Thank you to Bramble and ekim who obviously didn't just skim read my post. I'd have expected such a comment from LR but not from NS>
Honestly ::).
Robbie
Don't fret over this NS often displays outright bullying techniques and cowardice hiding behind a computer screen x
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Robbie
Don't fret over this NS often displays outright bullying techniques and cowardice hiding behind a computer screen x
I forgive you.
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I don't know where you got that from!
How ridiculous, I've never thought or said anything like that in my life. If you read my post properly you'll know what I meant.
Thank you to Bramble and ekim who obviously didn't just skim read my post. I'd have expected such a comment from LR but not from NS>
Honestly ::).
Because Sriram, ippy, and Walter have all taken the position that saying Go Home is fine. You don't see anything racist in that, therefore you support the normalisation of that and Trump's remarks.
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choose your weapon sir 😡😠
You write supporting racism, I will call it out.
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You write supporting racism, I will call it out.
and self righteousness is as sickening as it is embarrassing , I will call it out.
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and self righteousness is as sickening as it is embarrassing , I will call it out.
Because anyone being racist should be allowed to be in case they get 'sickened' for having it pointed out.
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BBC changes its mind.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-49883952
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So they should! I don't know why she was in trouble in the first place, what she said was dead right and plenty of other have said more. I don't know what the Beeb bosses were thinking, however common sense has prevailed and it's over now thank goodness.
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Let's hope that others on this thread who were more supportive of it being ok to tell people to go home because of their race or nationality agree that Munchetty was right and that saying that as Trump did is racist.
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Let's hope that others on this thread who were more supportive of it being ok to tell people to go home because of their race or nationality agree that Munchetty was right and that saying that as Trump did is racist.
I did not support racism nor did I want Munchetty to be sent 'home'. Stop being silly...NS!
Read my posts again!
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I did not support racism nor did I want Munchetty to be sent 'home'. Stop being silly...NS!
Read my posts again!
I didn't say you did want Munchetty to be sent home but you argued that people saying to people from other countries were understandable and in some ways justified. That's racism.
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The BBC have apparently rescinded their complaint against Munchetty.
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Yes, Gordon posted about that last night. Good. I couldn't understand why she was told off in the first place, she only said what most of us know if we live in the 'real world' & it was in response to stupid Trump's remark. Naga Munchetty is great, she has a lot of support from colleagues who voiced their thoughts that it was an OTT reaction. Thankfully it's over but it made people sit up and take notice which can't be bad.
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I did not support racism nor did I want Munchetty to be sent 'home'. Stop being silly...NS!
Read my posts again!
Don't be too hard on him Sriram, he consistently gets the wrong end of the stick in all sorts of threads.
Regards, ippy.
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Yes...and they exist in every country. Up to a point..they are even right.
Just to remind you Sririam. You can clarify here - but it looks like you are saying up to a point Racists are right.
And just to clarify If someone tells my Indian partner to go back home then I do consider them racist.
And then there's the question of where home is - is it East Africa where he was born, or is it where his parents came from so that would be Zanzibar or Belgaum in India - or is his home actually the UK because let me tell you he is more "British" in his attitudes than I am.
So do clarify if you can.
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I can't see anything racist about what Sririam has said. I thought a lot about it last night, re- reading.
It's natural to gravitate towards people who understand us and generally think like us. Not always to do with race (certainly in this country where many areas are cosmopolitan), but shared interests, like minds, human rights issues, the peace movement, causes, etc. That doesn't mean disliking or excluding anyone else. We can feel comfortable with, and enriched by, many people but there's usually a core group with whom we identify. In my case that is true and has nothing to do with race. I'm friendly with a lot of folk, at home and work, the people with whom I mix at work are diverse which is great; my closest friends are people who are on my wavelength (even we don't agree on everything, wouldn't it be boring if we did), our lifestyles are similar in some respects so we understand each other.
There are areas in this country where particular groups dominate the population. So what? I've not encountered hostility from any individuals, on the contrary they're usually hospitable.
I hope I'm making myself clear.
(Would you believe I've only just got up! Long time since I've had such a comfortable lay in - husband doing breakfast.)
Not sure about Walter, he is someone who often says things tongue in cheek :-).
Ippy has explained himself quite well. I do wonder how immigration has impacted on him personally (it hasn't affected me at all), and would be interested to know.
I was just having a quick read through and picked up this poser of yours and my answer would be immigration has mostly affected me because of the blindingly obvious numbers that make me think where have you been if you too haven't noticed.
No I don't care who, where they come from or what colour and as long as they're not better looking than me and come here to live as long as the numbers are a manageable amount and score enough points on some kind of Aussie points system applicable to the needs of the UK, oh yes there would be a lot of criminal type behaviour that should disqualify people probably best dealt with on a case by case basis.
There you are now you know Robbie.
Regards, ippy.
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Just to remind you Sririam. You can clarify here - but it looks like you are saying up to a point Racists are right.
And just to clarify If someone tells my Indian partner to go back home then I do consider them racist.
And then there's the question of where home is - is it East Africa where he was born, or is it where his parents came from so that would be Zanzibar or Belgaum in India - or is his home actually the UK because let me tell you he is more "British" in his attitudes than I am.
So do clarify if you can.
No...I am not saying that racists are right. I am saying that when a place gets too crowded by outsiders the locals have a right to protest. That is all.
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I was just having a quick read through and picked up this poser of yours and my answer would be immigration has mostly affected me because of the blindingly obvious numbers that make me think where have you been if you too haven't noticed.
No I don't care who, where they come from or what colour and as long as they're not better looking than me and come here to live as long as the numbers are a manageable amount and score enough points on some kind of Aussie points system applicable to the needs of the UK, oh yes there would be a lot of criminal type behaviour that should disqualify people probably best dealt with on a case by case basis.
There you are now you know Robbie.
Regards, ippy.
Ippy...you are very proud of your good looks and have mentioned it several times here. :D Why don't you post a photo or a link so that we can have the pleasure of seeing your good looks. This is a genuine request. :)
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No...I am not saying that racists are right. I am saying that when a place gets too crowded by outsiders the locals have a right to protest. That is all.
So when you wrote 'Up to a point..they are even right', you didn't mean it? Or you did mean it and they are allowed to show their racism but in some undefined way you think? Or you did mean it, and saying 'Why don't you go home? Is a valid protest?
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I haven't heard anyone suggest 'go home' for a very long time; the last I heard it was some years ago from an elderly lady who was, frankly, rather afraid that her way of life would somehow be disrupted. I remember pointing out to her, gently, that the people she felt ought to go 'home' were at home, they'd been born here. She just hadn't thought it out properly. Prejudice always comes from fear of some type. If we live in a multicultural or cosmopolitan, whatever the correct term is, area, we are not going to have fear of people on racial grounds.
Ippy, thanks for your reply. I can't say I've noticed that much quite honestly, I've seen programmes on television about influx of immigrants in some places but here it isn't much different to how it was twenty years or more ago. I don't think it would affect or bother me anyway, I'd say if it did. My life goes on the same regardless. That doesn't mean I don't feel terribly sorry for people who take great risks to come to the UK and other places because of war and persecution in their home land, I certainly do and if there is anything I can do to help them, I will. My parents and grandparents did the same. We're fortunate to live here, we did nothing to achieve that, it's just how it happened; could have been very different.
As a Christian, which won't mean anything to many here, I'm always conscious that Mary and Joseph with the little Jesus fled persecution and went to Egypt where they stayed a few years, living and working freely, until King Herod died and it was safe to return. I daresay not everyone in their community did return, some would have been quite happy to stay once established in Egypt.
Ippy, In last para I prefixed what I said with, " As a Christian, which won't mean anything to many here...."
I'm the last person to inflict views on anyone, I was merely stating what I felt, there was no need for you to be scathing when you could have ignored it. You need to learn some manners.
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Ippy...you are very proud of your good looks and have mentioned it several times here. :D Why don't you post a photo or a link so that we can have the pleasure of seeing your good looks. This is a genuine request. :)
Because it'd be too devastating for you Sriram and I'm far to kind and modest to post my picture on line.
Regards, ippy.
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I haven't heard anyone suggest 'go home' for a very long time; the last I heard it was some years ago from an elderly lady who was, frankly, rather afraid that her way of life would somehow be disrupted. I remember pointing out to her, gently, that the people she felt ought to go 'home' were at home, they'd been born here. She just hadn't thought it out properly. Prejudice always comes from fear of some type. If we live in a multicultural or cosmopolitan, whatever the correct term is, area, we are not going to have fear of people on racial grounds.
Ippy, thanks for your reply. I can't say I've noticed that much quite honestly, I've seen programmes on television about influx of immigrants in some places but here it isn't much different to how it was twenty years or more ago. I don't think it would affect or bother me anyway, I'd say if it did. My life goes on the same regardless. That doesn't mean I don't feel terribly sorry for people who take great risks to come to the UK and other places because of war and persecution in their home land, I certainly do and if there is anything I can do to help them, I will. My parents and grandparents did the same. We're fortunate to live here, we did nothing to achieve that, it's just how it happened; could have been very different.
As a Christian, which won't mean anything to many here, I'm always conscious that Mary and Joseph with the little Jesus fled persecution and went to Egypt where they stayed a few years, living and working freely, until King Herod died and it was safe to return. I daresay not everyone in their community did return, some would have been quite happy to stay once established in Egypt.
Robbie, I'll just add I don't blame anybody that is seeking to make a better future for themselves and family for trying to get here to the UK but even there I think the points system, to be decided, should apply, I'm talking potential immigrants not asylum seekers.
Obviously the clock can't be turned back but if about a half of the numbers immigrants we have here now compared with a very few years ago were to return to their countries of origin for myself and many others we would be astounded at the numbers involved with half as many we have at the moment.
I don't have problems living with these so many immigrants all it is with me is the numbers involved.
If as you say you haven't noticed that much quite honestly, which one of our many UK off shore islands are you living on.
I too feel sorry for people that take great risks to come here but all the time we keep on letting in so many they'll keep on taking the risks, we should be fully enforcing the a points system no matter where the potential immigrants are coming from, asylum seekers accepted, and maybe they'll start to ring the front door bell and request an approved entry.
Oh yes, as a person that doesn't think I've got a bunch of fairies living at the bottom of my garden, I can't be giving you any indefensible myths or hearsay stories about figures that are far more likely to be fictitious than not.
Regards, ippy.
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I've said before now I live In Bromley - London Borough, Kent to some people, not Bromley-by-Bow. I also work in a different part of Bromley. I'm not unaware of, for example, more people from Easter Europe than there used to be, I see several at work, know about the wonders of Polish plumbers (we did have a Polish guy recommended to me who did some work for us a few years back), and there are more grocery shops catering for the E European market than there used to be. That doesn't bother me at all, some just work here for a while and go back, others stay and are integrated. I could've gone to another EU country and worked there if I'd wanted, I didn't. I also occasionally think stupid and inappropriate things - one example is when someone was telling me about the beauties of Transylvania and I kept thinking, "Where the vampires come from", didn't say it but wanted to giggle(childish).
Over the years I've seen more people from Somalia and know there are areas with large Somali community.
When I was at school there was an influx of people from Kenya and a bit later, Uganda, the latter left because of Idi Amin, can't remember details about the Kenya people but think it was similar.
Plenty of British people have lived in both of those countries.
Of course there's a difference between someone travelling to work in another country and escaping a harsh regime. The latter have it harder.
I'm just not bothered by it Ippy. Life goes on the same, there are economic ups and downs here as everywhere but we're still basically alright. It might be different for you.
I didn't realise it was so late! Seeyou tomorrow maybe. I think we've done this to death, can't think of anything else to say on the subject.
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Because it'd be too devastating for you Sriram and I'm far to kind and modest to post my picture on line.
Regards, ippy.
Don't be shy ippy! ;) You can see my mug shot at my blog site, for what it is worth. Click above left. :)
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Coming back to the subject.... I think the whole idea of people migrating from poorer countries to richer countries seeking a better life...is unsustainable. How long can this go on?! It was a trickle in the 1960's but has become a flood now.
Ultimately we will end up making everyone equally poor and miserable. Not to speak of the cultural invasion.
Richer countries can and should help poorer countries to develop and become richer so that this sort of one sided migration can stop.
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It evens out evenually, Sririam. Manywho have come here seeking a better life have stayed and helped enrich and build up our nation.
Can't speak for India.
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It evens out evenually, Sririam. Manywho have come here seeking a better life have stayed and helped enrich and build up our nation.
Can't speak for India.
We have had severe problems with Bangladesh, Myanmar and Sri Lanka refugees.
Even within India, the problem is lob sided development. Some states are fairly well developed and are having fertility rates that are less than replacement rates. Some other states are very poor and continue to have high population growth rates even today. So this results in migration of workers from one state to another.
Ultimately many of the migrants end up sleeping on footpaths, doing meager jobs, begging and so on. Many locals get angry that in their state, in which they pay the taxes, these 'outsiders' turn up in a sorry state and add to the misery of others.
This is a problem with no immediate solution. People should work for an even development so that such migrations are not necessary or the inflow and outflow get balanced.
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I've said before now I live In Bromley - London Borough, Kent to some people, not Bromley-by-Bow. I also work in a different part of Bromley. I'm not unaware of, for example, more people from Easter Europe than there used to be, I see several at work, know about the wonders of Polish plumbers (we did have a Polish guy recommended to me who did some work for us a few years back), and there are more grocery shops catering for the E European market than there used to be. That doesn't bother me at all, some just work here for a while and go back, others stay and are integrated. I could've gone to another EU country and worked there if I'd wanted, I didn't. I also occasionally think stupid and inappropriate things - one example is when someone was telling me about the beauties of Transylvania and I kept thinking, "Where the vampires come from", didn't say it but wanted to giggle(childish).
Over the years I've seen more people from Somalia and know there are areas with large Somali community.
When I was at school there was an influx of people from Kenya and a bit later, Uganda, the latter left because of Idi Amin, can't remember details about the Kenya people but think it was similar.
Plenty of British people have lived in both of those countries.
Of course there's a difference between someone travelling to work in another country and escaping a harsh regime. The latter have it harder.
I'm just not bothered by it Ippy. Life goes on the same, there are economic ups and downs here as everywhere but we're still basically alright. It might be different for you.
I didn't realise it was so late! Seeyou tomorrow maybe. I think we've done this to death, can't think of anything else to say on the subject.
The links pretty good about what happened in Kenya in 1968 - I only just remember it.
https://mediadiversified.org/2018/03/22/british-kenyan-and-south-asian-a-postcolonial-migration-story/
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We have had severe problems with Bangladesh, Myanmar and Sri Lanka refugees.
Even within India, the problem is lob sided development. Some states are fairly well developed and are having fertility rates that are less than replacement rates. Some other states are very poor and continue to have high population growth rates even today. So this results in migration of workers from one state to another.
Ultimately many of the migrants end up sleeping on footpaths, doing meager jobs, begging and so on. Many locals get angry that in their state, in which they pay the taxes, these 'outsiders' turn up in a sorry state and add to the misery of others.
This is a problem with no immediate solution. People should work for an even development so that such migrations are not necessary or the inflow and outflow get balanced.
It's a similar problem here Sriram not exactly similar of cause, as I've mentioned both of my sons are of mixed race, my oldest went to nursery school in Winchmore Hill, North London some 37 years ago even then he was the only child that spoke English.
It's something that largely people over here don't seem to be able to understand or don't want to understand is the pressure just this one language problem that happened to be the problem my own child came up against, even though I got on very well with all of this united nations of people that surrounded me at that time the pressure it puts on to all of our services
and at the same time the services are under this continuing pressure it's making all sorts of supply problems for the next generation coming up.
At the moment the UK's attention is focused on Brexit and the remainers are so focused on reversing the referendum result they're even trying to squash racism into the equation, even though the extraordinary influx of numbers of immigrants entering the country are, brexit or not, it's the sheer numbers turning upside down the ability of every public service to perform their allotted tasks and more.
So getting along with people is all very nice and cosy but these vast numbers are unsustainable we need a manageable flow of migration into the country not a bloody great tidal wave, from what you say Sriram it sounds like India has a very similar problem.
Regards, ippy.
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Many Brits live in other countries.Maybe not so much these days, but in the past most didn't bother to learn the language of the country they were in, expecting people to speak to them in English! ::)
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Many Brits live in other countries.Maybe not so much these days, but in the past most didn't bother to learn the language of the country they were in, expecting people to speak to them in English! ::)
Yes L R if there were a more steady stream of immigrants they would be a lot easier to assimilate into the community in the mean time the time where I was referring to my own son the only English speaker at playschool was having to be on hold while the others were taking a lot of extra resources to familiarise themselves with the language to the cost of those already familiar with speaking English.
The tone of your post it seems to me that in some way you're wanting me to say things like bloody foreigners, send em back home, both of which couldn't be further away from any of my thoughts at any time ever, I don't think in that way at all.
The point I was making is that in so many ways it takes that every little extra effort, like learning the language, etc etc etc and then added to that the continuation of bringing people from overseas here in the large numbers we've been apparently racing to import for far too many years now.
I was living in Winchmore Hill at the time and the next door borough was Palmers Green and even the Greeks were calling it Palmers Greek way back then, 37 years ago, that has to be telling you something L R.
I am against copious amounts of foreigners coming here to the UK in such as short period of time person as opposed to being a, we completely don't want any foreigners coming here to the UK, person.
Regards, ippy.
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Yes L R if there were a more steady stream of immigrants they would be a lot easier to assimilate into the community in the mean time the time where I was referring to my own son the only English speaker at playschool was having to be on hold while the others were taking a lot of extra resources to familiarise themselves with the language to the cost of those already familiar with speaking English.
The tone of your post it seems to me that in some way you're wanting me to say things like bloody foreigners, send em back home, both of which couldn't be further away from any of my thoughts at any time ever, I don't think in that way at all.
The point I was making is that in so many ways it takes that every little extra effort, like learning the language, etc etc etc and then added to that the continuation of bringing people from overseas here in the large numbers we've been apparently racing to import for far too many years now.
I was living in Winchmore Hill at the time and the next door borough was Palmers Green and even the Greeks were calling it Palmers Greek way back then, 37 years ago, that has to be telling you something L R.
I am against copious amounts of foreigners coming here to the UK in such as short period of time person as opposed to being a, we completely don't want any foreigners coming here to the UK, person.
Regards, ippy.
As I have said so many times, most Brits ancestors were incomers, in fact I am an incomer not being born in the UK.
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Don't be shy ippy! ;) You can see my mug shot at my blog site, for what it is worth. Click above left. :)
I've seen your photo Sriram, where do you want me to send the money?
Regards, ippy.
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As I have said so many times, most Brits ancestors were incomers, in fact I am an incomer not being born in the UK.
This post of yours suggests to me you have missed the point of the things I have said about immigration in my previous post my family came here from Flanders 200 years ago but that's also irrelevant to the contents of my post.
Regards, ippy.
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I've seen your photo Sriram, where do you want me to send the money?
Regards, ippy.
:D :D Waiting to see your photo.....!