Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on October 12, 2019, 05:33:52 PM
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I wonder if this is going to be a trigger to married priests, and possibly women priests.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00099wd
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saney,
I've just listened to the interview with Melissa Villalobos and I'm already triggered so I won't be listening to the program in the morning , I might end up smashing my van to bits >:( ;)
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I wonder if this is going to be a trigger to married priests, and possibly women priests.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00099wd
I don't think anyone is worthy of sainthood.
Why does making that guy a saint encourage the RCC to permit priests to marry and women becoming priests?
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I don't think anyone is worthy of sainthood.
Why does making that guy a saint encourage the RCC to permit priests to marry and women becoming priests?
Because he is famous for having a very strong attachment to another man. The RCC, as with most institutions, all about the politics. Making JHN a saint is a liberal measure. Hence maybe more liberal measures to come.
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Because he is famous for having a very strong attachment to another man. The RCC, as with most institutions, all about the politics. Making JHN a saint is a liberal measure. Hence maybe more liberal measures to come.
Hmmmmm! I wouldn't hold your breath where that is concerned.
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I''m not. Doesn't mean that this isn't mood music
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Nowhere in the reports is there any mention of the fact that he wrote the poem which, when set to music by Edward Elgar (also with a strong Birmingham connection), became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences.
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Nowhere in the reports is there any mention of the fact that he wrote the poem which, when set to music by Edward Elgar (also with a strong Birmingham connection), became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences.
That's odd. You would think that would be a way to make him relevant in such reporting.
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Nowhere in the reports is there any mention of the fact that he wrote the poem which, when set to music by Edward Elgar (also with a strong Birmingham connection), became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences.
I presume you mean the Dream of Gerontius?
If so I would take issue with became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences. Even if you restrict to oratorios, (noting that Elgar didn't consider the Dream of Gerontius to be an oratoio) rather than the wider pool of choral pieces, then I'm struggling to see how you could consider it to be above Bach's Matthew and John Passions, Mendelssohn's Elijah and Haydn's Creation in popularity to name a few.
As a choral society committee member I'm well aware of the pieces that get bums on seats, so to speak. Elgar's Gerontius isn't really one of them.
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It would appear that the most popular choral works are all based on biblical themes :)
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It would appear that the most popular choral works are all based on biblical themes :)
Even if that is true so what?
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Even if that is true so what?
Probably why they're so boring too!
Regards LR, ippy
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It would appear that the most popular choral works are all based on biblical themes :)
Firstly I restricted my list to oratorios, which are pretty well by definition, the telling of a sacred story which is to be performed in a church, and hence will (certainly historically) be biblical in nature in virtually all cases.
But more broadly classical choral music will also include Opera, which tends to be secular and also sacred liturgical music, such as mass settings, which will also be religious in nature. I didn't include those on my list of most popular, as I was only considering oratorios.
But you also have to consider the context of the time. Composers needed to earn a living and for choral music in its broadest sense that either meant writing opera for a commercial setting, or being commissioned by the various religious authorities to write sacred music to be performed in a church (oratorio) or used in religious worship.
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Probably why they're so boring too!
Regards LR, ippy
In your opinion.
I'm completely non religious, but appreciate any of these remarkable pieces of music, all the more so having performed most of them. And you can appreciate the power of the narrative, for example, in the John Passion, without having to believe in it.
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I'm not familiar with Cardinal Newman but from what I've read since this thread was started, I am extremely interested! That particular period of history, Oxford Movement etc, fascinates me.
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In your opinion.
I'm completely non religious, but appreciate any of these remarkable pieces of music, all the more so having performed most of them. And you can appreciate the power of the narrative, for example, in the John Passion, without having to believe in it.
Absolutely.
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Probably why they're so boring too!
Regards LR, ippy
I doubt you'd know a B flat from a bull's fart.
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Absolutely.
Been mulling over why I feel that the Dream of Gerontius doesn't have either the profile or popularity of many of the other great choral works, including the oratorios I mentioned, but also all the great mass settings etc such as the Mozart, Faure and Verdi Requiems, Vivaldi Gloria, Great Mass in C etc etc.
I think firstly Elgar's high Victoriana isn't currently in vogue, with much greater popularity of earlier music, including baroque period, plus more modern pieces.
But I think Dream of Gerontius is also rarely performed because it is such a monster to perform - it requires choir, orchestra and soloists that is beyond most choral societies (Messiah is easy as the orchestra is tiny for example).
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I have removed my earlier response - it was confrontational and did not actually express my thoughts on this subject.
My earlier intention had been to consider Newman's contribution to British/English culture.
The Dream of Gerontius is - in my judgement - the second most popular choral work written by an Englishman (and I include Handel in this national characterisation).
I was using oratorio as a generalised term. I should have said choral work. The other guaranteed hall-filler is Belshazzar's Feast - ahead of Britten's War Requiem and Tippett's Child of Our Time
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I have removed my earlier response - it was confrontational and did not actually express my thoughts on this subject.
I didn't see your earlier response, so no worries if it was confrontational.
I think we are both interested and passionate about choral music so I trust our conversation will develop on that basis. However I would make the point that there is a difference between music we may personally like and that which is widely popular. Sometimes it is easy to conflate the two - in effect a piece of music that you (or I) love and think is a magnificent piece must therefore be wildly popular. That isn't always the case - indeed often it is not.
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The other guaranteed hall-filler ...
Out of interest - have you ever had to actively bother yourself with what is, and is not, a hall filler in choral music terms.
The reason I ask is that as a committee member of a choral society which needs to balance the books, we are continually thinking about programmes that will fill halls and those which wont. I suspect people involved in running these kinds of organisations know better than most which pieces get bums on seats and which don't. Maybe you have also been in the position of determining concert programmes and predicting (and hopefully delivering) ticket sales but if not then you may not have the best insight into the popularity of particular choral pieces as a 'guaranteed hall-filler'.
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The Dream of Gerontius is - in my judgement - the second most popular choral work written by an Englishman (and I include Handel in this national characterisation).
I was using oratorio as a generalised term. I should have said choral work. The other guaranteed hall-filler is Belshazzar's Feast - ahead of Britten's War Requiem and Tippett's Child of Our Time
With respect that isn't what you said - you didn't say:
'the second most popular choral work written by an Englishman'
You said:
'[Dream of Gerontius] became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences'
Which is an entirely different matter. Your original view, the latter, implies popularity of choral pieces by any nationality of composer amongst English audiences. And I'm sure we'd both agree that if we don't restrict by nationality of composer, and if we extend to all choral pieces the Dream of Gerontius will be way, way down the list in popularity stakes.
Sure if you are restricting yourself to only English composers (which narrows down massively), then sure Dream of Gerontius will be toward the top of the popularity stakes. However I'm not convinced it is as high as you think - and certainly I'd consider your other 'concert length' pieces to be more popular, as indeed would at least one other piece of Handel (Coronation Anthems, provided you mention Zadoc the priest). But there are also many shorter choral works by English composers that I'm confident (including my experience of what sells out venues) are more of a draw than Dream of Gerontius.
Examples
Various Rutter pieces - including Gloria and Requiem
Tavener Song for Athene and probably The Lamb
Various pieces of Chilcott
Vaughan Williams fantasia on Christmas Carols and Sea Symphony
I was Glad and Blest Pair of Sirens - Parry and of course the biggest crowd pleaser of the lot - Jerusalem
Britten - St Nicholas
Now you and I may rate Dream of Gerontius higher than any of those, but that wasn't the point you were making.
Just to note we will be performing in the largest (and most expensive) venue we sing in - our local Cathedral - next month. We'd never consider performing Dream of Gerontius there as we simply wouldn't be convinced of selling enough tickets. The programme (for various reasons) includes one world premier and a second piece that has been performed only once before. Knowing this we needed a nailed on crowd pleaser to ensure bums on seats. What did we choose - Rutter Gloria - why, because we know it is exceptionally popular and people will buy tickets on the back of its inclusion in the programme.
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Indeed - the point I was making was that Elgar's choral piece was providing Newman with a link to a much wider audience than just Catholicism. And a further link can be found in the Elgar memorial window in Worcester Cathedral which includes references to Gerontius which were then incorporated into the design of the old £20 note which featured Edward Elgar.
I was a member of choirs many, many years ago but this ended because my life was unsettled for a while. Later I developed a strong friendship with the general manager of an orchestra (he was my son's godfather) and I observed the importance of filling auditoria.
For several years I have been a fervent admirer of the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. Gerontius fills Symphony Hall, Elijah does not. (Both chosen because they both had their first performance in Birmingham). You referred earlier to Elgar being Victorian, surely it was Mendelssohn who was the Victorian ,,,
Symphony Hall is also filled by Mahler 2. Mark Elder considers Elgar to be the English Mahler. 8)
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Indeed - the point I was making was that Elgar's choral piece was providing Newman with a link to a much wider audience than just Catholicism. And a further link can be found in the Elgar memorial window in Worcester Cathedral which includes references to Gerontius which were then incorporated into the design of the old £20 note which featured Edward Elgar.
I was a member of choirs many, many years ago but this ended because my life was unsettled for a while. Later I developed a strong friendship with the general manager of an orchestra (he was my son's godfather) and I observed the importance of filling auditoria.
For several years I have been a fervent admirer of the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. Gerontius fills Symphony Hall, Elijah does not. (Both chosen because they both had their first performance in Birmingham). You referred earlier to Elgar being Victorian, surely it was Mendelssohn who was the Victorian ,,,
Symphony Hall is also filled by Mahler 2. Mark Elder considers Elgar to be the English Mahler. 8)
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are a little older than me and I think this and where you live are relevant in your views on the profile and popularity of Dream of Gerontius.
First geography - I can fully understand why Dream of Gerontius has a special place in the hearts of people in Birmingham - as both Elgar and Newman are closely linked with the city. But Birmingham isn't England and those particular links don't apply in the rest of the country.
Secondly age and time - I actually think that Dream of Gerontius has undergone a strange fluctuation in popularity and prominence with its peak in the period from the 50s to the 80s and declining significantly thereafter. So I can tell you that in my part of the world (Hertfordshire, without its special links with Elgar and Newman) over the past decades where I've been significantly interested and involved in choral music Dream of Gerontius doesn't have a major profile and is not considered to be one of the most popular pieces. It certainly isn't a piece that would fill out the big venues (unlike a range of other pieces) and is therefore rarely performed.
So in our 75 years my choral society has only performed Dream of Gerontius twice, the last time in 1988 - and a quick glance at the other choral societies locally big enough to perform it reveals a similar pattern - rarely performed and increasingly infrequently performed over recent decades. Now there will be a number of interlinked reasons for this, but ultimately it affects profile, and profile impacts popularity which makes it less likely for it to be performed - a vicious circle.
And it isn't just amateur performances where this is the case - look at the Proms - if there is anywhere where the Dream of Gerontius fits perfectly it is in the Royal Albert Hall at the Proms. Well you can see the entire list of performances - through the late 50s to the early 70s Dream of Gerontius was almost ever present, performed 9 times in just 14 years. In the past 45 years Dream of Gerontius has been performed just 4 times at the Proms.
So I would say that Dream of Gerontius had a relatively brief heyday of popularity in the post-war decades but that popularity has declined massively for a variety of reasons, not least a general move in public tastes away from the high victoriana/Edwardian feel of Elgar and contemporaries - once upon a time Elgar would be locked on favourite for any vote on most popular English composer, now he'll certainly be behind Vaughan-Williams and probably Britten (maybe even Holst) as tastes change. And the reasons for the lack of profile of Dream of Gerontius in the first few decades after it was written are, of course, well recorded.
So coming back to my opening comment - again correct me if I am wrong, but if you a someone who was strongly involved in choral music perhaps through the 60s, 70s and into the 80s in Birmingham then of course you'll think Dream of Gerontius to be hugely popular and high profile. But if, like me, your involvement has been largely over the past 20 years and not in Birmingham, well Dream of Gerontius has very limited profile in the choral pantheon.
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HH
Thought this might be of interest - now of course the Classic FM hall of fame is by no means the ultimate arbiter of popularity of classical music pieces, but I though it interesting nonetheless.
http://halloffame.classicfm.com/2015/chart/p/list-all/
So Dream of Gerontius appears at a very credible number 168 and the list is dominated by orchestral pieces, film scores and video-game music. Above it in choral music terms are (starting with the most popular):
Miserere - Gregorio Allegri
The Armed Man - Jenkins
Requiem - Faure
Requiem - Mozart
Messiah - Handel
Coronation anthems - Handel
Ave verum corpus - Mozart
Carmina burana - Orff
Cantique de Jean Racine - Faure
Spem in alium - Tallis
Soloman - Handel
O magnum mysterium - Lauridsen
German requiem - Brahms
Requiem - Verdi
Matthew passion - Bach
Choral fantasia - Beethoven
Vespers - Mozart
Plus there are the usual suspects of operatic music (many of which are famous due to their choruses) which I've not included
I may have missed some - a few surprises, but overall this feels about right.
Also in the top 300 there are further choral works by Tallis, Lauridsen, plus choral works by Vivaldi, Rutter (multiple), Whitacre (multiple), Parry (multiple), O'Donnell, Gjeilo, Stopford etc
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Thank you very much for that. I shall look at the ClassicFM list later (my attempts to click on it were thwarted by the proxy site).
We have derailed this topic, haven't we ...
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Thank you very much for that. I shall look at the ClassicFM list later (my attempts to click on it were thwarted by the proxy site).
The pieces are listed are pretty well all the choral works in the top 300.
I have been very fortunate to have performed most of them so know them intimately. There are a few pieces that I don't know at all, such as the Jenkins piece, the Brahms and the Beethoven so I can't comment on them.
But of those I know well my personal favourites would be the Lausidsen O magnum mysterium, which is simply magical. I'm a big fan of the Faure pieces too, although the Cantique de Jean Racine is sung in French which is always tricky. The Tallis I haven't sung (would love to) but think it is wonderful.
Would welcome your thoughts on which of the pieces on the list you particularly like, and have perhaps sung yourself back in the day.
We have derailed this topic, haven't we ...
Perhaps, but discussing choral music is more interesting that discussing Newman ;)
So we don't completely derail - I wonder whether there will be a resurgence in popularity of Dream of Gerontius on the back of Newman's sainthood.
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Most of my singing has been in church choirs but I was - for a while - a member of a choral society (which was where I discovered Gerontius) but the demands of finding employment put an end to this. If I tell you that Elgar's legacy was greatly promoted by four disciples, and that I have been able to hear his major works performed by them it may give some indication of my vintage. The disciples were Boult, Sargent, Barbirolli and Menuhin,
The church choirs were of the Roman variety - settings of the mass - not only plainsong but SATB - motets and other short pieces by Palestrina and Monteverdi and Mozart and others. My knowledge of other pieces has come through listening not performance.
I don't know The Armed Man, but I have a video recording of the piece that Jenkins wrote for the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan disaster - I find it very moving (but then, I suspect that that is its purpose).
I also love the two Faure pieces. The Requiem was performed at Birmingham a couple of years ago. Roddy Williams sang the baritone part and the Pie Jesu was sung by a children's chorus (typical Mirga!) The rest of the concert was devoted to choral pieces by Lili Boulanger. If only she had lived ...
My most recent choral concert was of A Child of Our Time. Mirga and the CBSO then took it on tour to Germany. One of the performances was recorded by DG and will be issued on CD eventually. Mirga's innovation here was to get the audience to join in the spirituals - there was a short rehearsal before the concert began.
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Moderator For the avoidance of doubt, sometimes derails are significant, sometimes not. This is one where it is not. Very occasional mentions of the Dream of Gerontius are appreciated but keep on keeping on.
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Most of my singing has been in church choirs but I was - for a while - a member of a choral society (which was where I discovered Gerontius) but the demands of finding employment put an end to this. If I tell you that Elgar's legacy was greatly promoted by four disciples, and that I have been able to hear his major works performed by them it may give some indication of my vintage. The disciples were Boult, Sargent, Barbirolli and Menuhin,
The church choirs were of the Roman variety - settings of the mass - not only plainsong but SATB - motets and other short pieces by Palestrina and Monteverdi and Mozart and others. My knowledge of other pieces has come through listening not performance.
I don't know The Armed Man, but I have a video recording of the piece that Jenkins wrote for the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan disaster - I find it very moving (but then, I suspect that that is its purpose).
I also love the two Faure pieces. The Requiem was performed at Birmingham a couple of years ago. Roddy Williams sang the baritone part and the Pie Jesu was sung by a children's chorus (typical Mirga!) The rest of the concert was devoted to choral pieces by Lili Boulanger. If only she had lived ...
My most recent choral concert was of A Child of Our Time. Mirga and the CBSO then took it on tour to Germany. One of the performances was recorded by DG and will be issued on CD eventually. Mirga's innovation here was to get the audience to join in the spirituals - there was a short rehearsal before the concert began.
Sounds like you are almost the reverse of me - Dream of Gerontius is one of the few major pieces I've never had the opportunity to sing, and I suspect that isn't going to change any time soon.
I'm a big fan of early music too - sang some Palestrina in a recent choral workshop I did led by the remarkably talented Scott Inglis-Kidger (check him out).
I've never seen Roddy Williams live - indeed it's pretty rare for me to be at a choral concert unless I'm singing - but I really like his style. I am a baritone too and when I'm checking out pieces for my singing lessons I always look out for a Roddy version as his singing style is so clear and un-affected, unlike Bryn Terfil.
I've not sung the whole of Child of out Time, only the spirituals where I was asked to do the solo bits - which always terrifies me :-\
If you haven't heard the Lauridsen O magnum mysterium you really should look it out - it is beautiful - definitely a Desert Island Disc.
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Back to Newman
Another area where PD and I may have an interest in Newman's life concerns his role as a university administrator. He was involved in the founding of, and was first rector of what became University College Dublin. He stated that the purpose of a university was "excellence".
My own academic career: I worked for the best part of a quarter of a century at a place which, when I joined, was a college of further education and when I retired was a university. For the whole of that time I was engaged in HE teaching of Business and Management subjects, at first with BTEC HNC/D courses which in time transformed into degree and higher degree courses.
I refused to allow myself to be merely a trainer of operational skills - I believed that my duty to my students was to help them to acquire knowledge and then understanding and the higher level skills which would be of value to students years after they took up employment, when they had risen to positions of authority.
That was how I interpreted Newman's concept of"exellence".
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Back to Newman
Another area where PD and I may have an interest in Newman's life concerns his role as a university administrator. He was involved in the founding of, and was first rector of what became University College Dublin. He stated that the purpose of a university was "excellence".
My own academic career: I worked for the best part of a quarter of a century at a place which, when I joined, was a college of further education and when I retired was a university. For the whole of that time I was engaged in HE teaching of Business and Management subjects, at first with BTEC HNC/D courses which in time transformed into degree and higher degree courses.
I refused to allow myself to be merely a trainer of operational skills - I believed that my duty to my students was to help them to acquire knowledge and then understanding and the higher level skills which would be of value to students years after they took up employment, when they had risen to positions of authority.
That was how I interpreted Newman's concept of"exellence".
sounds about right to me HH .
I imagine there are some very grateful ex-students who sing your praises
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I imagine there are some very grateful ex-students who sing your praises
I don't know about "singing my praises", Walter, but I often told students that one of the first things things they would hear in their new jobs would be "we don't do it that way here". We used to have former students who popped in to see us after they had started their new jobs - and quite a few told me that I was right.
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I don't know about "singing my praises", Walter, but I often told students that one of the first things things they would hear in their new jobs would be "we don't do it that way here". We used to have former students who popped in to see us after they had started their new jobs - and quite a few told me that I was right.
as the old saying goes;
those who can, do. Those who cant, teach.
I've found that to be true on many occasions throughout my working life !
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as the old saying goes;
those who can, do. Those who cant, teach.
I've found that to be true on many occasions throughout my working life !
Not quite an old saying:
He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.
George Bernard Shaw: Maxims For Revolutionists (from The Revolutionist's Handbook, written by John Tanner, a character in Shaw's play Man and Superman)
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Not quite an old saying:
He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.
George Bernard Shaw: Maxims For Revolutionists (from The Revolutionist's Handbook, written by John Tanner, a character in Shaw's play Man and Superman)
you've inadvertently just proved my point HH ;)
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Back to Newman
Another area where PD and I may have an interest in Newman's life concerns his role as a university administrator. He was involved in the founding of, and was first rector of what became University College Dublin. He stated that the purpose of a university was "excellence".
My own academic career: I worked for the best part of a quarter of a century at a place which, when I joined, was a college of further education and when I retired was a university. For the whole of that time I was engaged in HE teaching of Business and Management subjects, at first with BTEC HNC/D courses which in time transformed into degree and higher degree courses.
I refused to allow myself to be merely a trainer of operational skills - I believed that my duty to my students was to help them to acquire knowledge and then understanding and the higher level skills which would be of value to students years after they took up employment, when they had risen to positions of authority.
That was how I interpreted Newman's concept of"exellence".
One of my research team is off to take an academic position at UCD in January - will be sad to see him go.
I've always had a frustration with this perceived divide between 'academic' and 'vocational' and the view that proper universities do the former - particularly when it is pointed out that many of our top universities are recognised for their Medicine (vocational), Dentistry (vocational), Veterinary (vocational), Engineering (vocational) and Law (vocational) departments!
To my mind all study should include elements that are academic and also transferable and therefore vocational even if the main qualification topic seems far from vocational. Most degrees will develop critical thinking, writing skills, communication skills etc, etc even if there are rather few jobs specifically for ancient historians, as an example.
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I well recall an American television series called The Paper Chase. It was about the progress of a very bright young man through the Harvard School of Law, and in particular, his relationship with Professor kingsfield, who taught Contract Law (and also with Kingsfield's daughter - but I digress). Kingsfield's teaching method was distinctly Socratic. He also claimed "You teach yourselves the law. I teach you to think."
As for the students doing Ancient History, or English or Welsh Culture ... or even Media Studies! Whatever. My view has always been that it does not matter subject a student is following providing he or she acquires high level cognitive skills - the abilities to analyse and evaluate, to adapt, to convince and to create. The subject area is the context within which high level skills are developed. These are the skills that are required in strategic activities. For the most part, operational skill training is the responsibility of the employer.
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Ah, contracts! How I miss thee not.
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I was talking today to a friend, now retired, who used to work at Newman University, in Birmingham. She, along with other members of staff, attended the beatification ceremony, at which Pope Benedict XVI officiated, in Birmingham nine years ago. She did not know whether the university's name would be changed to reflect the change in status.
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I was talking today to a friend, now retired, who used to work at Newman University, in Birmingham. She, along with other members of staff, attended the beatification ceremony, at which Pope Benedict XVI officiated, in Birmingham nine years ago. She did not know whether the university's name would be changed to reflect the change in status.
Changing the name of a University isn't a straightforward matter and so were Newman University to want to change its name there would be a range of external organisations that would need to agree. For most Universities this involves the Government Dept BEIS and the Office for Students to name two, but presumably for Newman University this would also require ratification from RCC authorities if they wish to use Saint in their name.
Not impossible, of course, but will take time. The University would also need to determine whether Saint John Henry University (for example), rather than Newman University appropriately portrays the image they wish to convey to students etc. Personally I'm not convinced it would.
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Was he made a saint for being a steel-driving man?