Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Roses on October 24, 2019, 03:33:55 PM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50165998
And so it goes on. >:( I just don't know how anyone can be a devout Catholic these days, as their church has preferred to cover up the crimes perpetrated by some of the priests, even though it put more young people in danger. A few ridiculous hail mary's isn't going to absolve those sick perverts of their evil deeds. >:(
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50165998
And so it goes on. >:( I just don't know how anyone can be a devout Catholic these days, as their church has preferred to cover up the crimes perpetrated by some of the priests, even though it put more young people in danger. A few ridiculous hail mary's isn't going to absolve those sick perverts of their evil deeds. >:(
You need to separate individual religious people from the institution. It's not that difficult. I have family members who are devout Catholics and are just as angry as you are about these misdeeds, it does not affect their faith.
And why should it? Paedophiles appear in all sorts of organisations. The RC is no different. Cover ups are, unfortunately, a part of human nature. Note human nature, nowt to do with religion.
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You need to separate individual religious people from the institution. It's not that difficult. I have family members who are devout Catholics and are just as angry as you are about these misdeeds, it does not affect their faith.
And why should it? Paedophiles appear in all sorts of organisations. The RC is no different. Cover ups are, unfortunately, a part of human nature. Note human nature, nowt to do with religion.
And for many of those people their experience is of community which is entirely alien to this. It's about the friend they have known all their life, the family they have loved, the priest who supported them. Yes, those in the RCC who have abused and raped need to be dealt with, and those who covered it up similarly but the 1.5 billion people are no more guilty than the 6 billion of the rest of us for all sorts of other stuff.
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Wot TV and NS said. LR, I was immensly honoured to go to an albeit distant cousdin's ordination as priest four years ago. No, I don't share some of their doctrine, but more unites than divides us. I can guarantee that the overwhelming majority of both clergy and laity in that denomination are sickened by the conduct of a few - too many, but still a few. To cast the whole institution as morally bankrupt is OTT, even for you.
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I think an institution which has turned blind eye to the terrible abuse over the years is morally bankrupt and despicable. >:(
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I think an institution which has turned blind eye to the terrible abuse over the years is morally bankrupt and despicable. >:(
Well, you must condemn an awful loy of both secular and religious institutions for the sickening crimes of a few.
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I think an institution which has turned blind eye to the terrible abuse over the years is morally bankrupt and despicable. >:(
I think there is a question here about how one sees the 'institution'. The posts from myself, Trentvoyager, and Anchorman are about seeing it as a collection of individuals and seeing it through their eyes. They can separate their own experience from the RCC as an institution which they can be critical of. You, Littleroses, see it as a monolith, and there is certainly validity in that as the higher levels of the RCC often seek to portray it that way. Indeed it's that hierarchical approach that is seen as the RCC's failing from those churches that broke away to emphasise what they believed was the personal relationship with god.
But for those of us who are close to RCs, the difference in how an individual views their beliefs is not the simple black and white of doctrine and schism, but rather a celebration of the differences and simalarities that make us human. There are some RCs I know who have left the church because of the scandals of abuse and cover up, there are some whose faith has been shaken and they take much less part, there are some who have seen it as a call to fight those scandals and stand up for the victims. I've seen those type of approaches in people in political parties that have gone through what might be seen as similar issues. Of the friends I have who are members of the Labour Party, their reactions to the question of anti Semitism have also taken myriad paths.
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My Irish great grandmother, a lovely woman who died when I was 8, married a catholic man who converted to Anglicanism. Their daughter, my father's mother, was kidnapped by the catholic side of her family several times, with the approval of her uncle a Cardinal. >:( So I have rather a jaundiced opinion of the RCC, especially as it is possible my grandmother's childhood trauma may have turned her into the highly unpleasant woman she became. :o
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My Irish great grandmother, a lovely woman who died when I was 8, married a catholic man who converted to Anglicanism. Their daughter, my father's mother, was kidnapped by the catholic side of her family several times, with the approval of her uncle a Cardinal. >:( So I have rather a jaundiced opinion of the RCC, especially as it is possible my grandmother's childhood trauma may have turned her into the highly unpleasant woman she became. :o
And?
My mother's natural parents died when she was a toddler.
She was adopted by an RC couple, whose son remained a committed member of the RC Church till the day he died. My mum, however, was enrolled in the local non-denominational school - because her parents had no real religious conviction - and allowed to make her own choice.
She chose to accept Christ ten years after I did - to the joy of our RC family.
There has been no bitternes, nor confrontation...my only real gripe was that, when I visited them in Glasgow, their church hall had a bar.
Ours, sadly, did not.
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My Irish great grandmother, a lovely woman who died when I was 8, married a catholic man who converted to Anglicanism. Their daughter, my father's mother, was kidnapped by the catholic side of her family several times, with the approval of her uncle a Cardinal. >:( So I have rather a jaundiced opinion of the RCC, especially as it is possible my grandmother's childhood trauma may have turned her into the highly unpleasant woman she became. :o
The past is foreign country.
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The past is foreign country.
People's perceptions though are obviously coloured by what their experience of the RCC are, and what the experiences of those close to them who are or were in it. Having been brought up in it, I have a great deal of ambivalence about it as an institution but I also have a great deal of love for many members of church. They, as people, represent the RCC to me much more than the flummeries in Rome.
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People's perceptions though are obviously coloured by what their experience of the RCC are, and what the experiences of those close to them who are or were in it. Having been brought up in it, I have a great deal of ambivalence about it as an institution but I also have a great deal of love for many members of church. They, as people, represent the RCC to me much more than the flummeries in Rome.
I agree, but as someone once said "they fuck you up, your Mum and Dad." Sooner or later for your own good you have to recognise that and just let it go. The same applies to most things I would argue.
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The past is foreign country.
Not in my case unfortunately.
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I agree, but as someone once said "they fuck you up, your Mum and Dad." Sooner or later for your own good you have to recognise that and just let it go. The same applies to most things I would argue.
Yep, I went through a period of being a bit sanctimonious about it - so when I was initially asked to be a godparent to a nephew, I said no. Then after a few more years, I accepted it was just social ritual for the people, and if Satan does he exist then I am happy to denounce him and all his works.
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Not in my case unfortunately.
It's about time you got over the traumas of your childhood. We all have unpleasant experiences in our childhoods, but most of us don't use them as an excuse for our prejudices into our 60s and 70s. You also should learn that you shouldn't generalise from particular instances.
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It's about time you got over the traumas of your childhood. We all have unpleasant experiences in our childhoods, but most of us don't use them as an excuse for our prejudices into our 60s and 70s. You also should learn that you shouldn't generalise from particular instances.
If someone is traumatised by something, it seems a deeply unpleasant to say that they are just using their trauma as an excuse.
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If someone is traumatised by something, it seems a deeply unpleasant to say that they are just using their trauma as an excuse.
I think a bit of straight talking is sometimes necessary, even if it is unpleasant at the time.
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I think a bit of straight talking is sometimes necessary, even if it is unpleasant at the time.
Was that in your thesis to get your qualification in trauma counselling?
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You need to separate individual religious people from the institution. It's not that difficult. I have family members who are devout Catholics and are just as angry as you are about these misdeeds, it does not affect their faith.
And why should it? Paedophiles appear in all sorts of organisations. The RC is no different. Cover ups are, unfortunately, a part of human nature. Note human nature, nowt to do with religion.
Not in a theological way, perhaps, but organisationally the Catholic Church stand out amongst the organisations which have identified this sort of activity amongst their ranks in their continued opacity to external investigation, their continued failure across multiple jurisdictions to openly assist in ongoing investigations and enquiries and their continued attempts to divert any official processes of external agencies into internal matters that they can deal with in a closed shop.
The Catholic Church hierarchy and organisation are consistently putting their own narrow, short-term interests before the interests of justice (presumably) in the belief that the institution is more important than any of the individuals. That's a political and legal view rather than a religious one, on their part, but it still makes them stand apart from the overwhelming majority of other organisations which have found themselves in these sorts of situations.
O.
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It's about time you got over the traumas of your childhood. We all have unpleasant experiences in our childhoods, but most of us don't use them as an excuse for our prejudices into our 60s and 70s. You also should learn that you shouldn't generalise from particular instances. Finally, you should realise that "imo" is not an argument.
Steve, your opinion is worth nothing as you have no idea what you are talking about regarding my past. ::)
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Not in a theological way, perhaps, but organisationally the Catholic Church stand out amongst the organisations which have identified this sort of activity amongst their ranks in their continued opacity to external investigation, their continued failure across multiple jurisdictions to openly assist in ongoing investigations and enquiries and their continued attempts to divert any official processes of external agencies into internal matters that they can deal with in a closed shop.
The Catholic Church hierarchy and organisation are consistently putting their own narrow, short-term interests before the interests of justice (presumably) in the belief that the institution is more important than any of the individuals. That's a political and legal view rather than a religious one, on their part, but it still makes them stand apart from the overwhelming majority of other organisations which have found themselves in these sorts of situations.
O.
Is that true? I can think of similar things happening in virtually of our political parties. And indeed most religious groups. Also on this subject a number of football clubs.
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Anyone who covers up sexual abuse, for whatever reason, should be prosecuted.
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Is that true? I can think of similar things happening in virtually of our political parties. And indeed most religious groups. Also on this subject a number of football clubs.
I think this is the case. Some political parties, social clubs, sports clubs etc. have done this in the past - arguably the BBC is one of the higher profile establishments that's been involved. In the main, though, currently, they're cooperating, opening up and attempting to be more transparent - the Catholic Church isn't, at least not consistently. It's saying some of the right things, there are individual examples of people within the organisation trying to change, but it's been significantly slower to do so.
O.
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I think this is the case. Some political parties, social clubs, sports clubs etc. have done this in the past - arguably the BBC is one of the higher profile establishments that's been involved. In the main, though, currently, they're cooperating, opening up and attempting to be more transparent - the Catholic Church isn't, at least not consistently. It's saying some of the right things, there are individual examples of people within the organisation trying to change, but it's been significantly slower to do so.
O.
That appears to be the case.
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I think this is the case. Some political parties, social clubs, sports clubs etc. have done this in the past - arguably the BBC is one of the higher profile establishments that's been involved. In the main, though, currently, they're cooperating, opening up and attempting to be more transparent - the Catholic Church isn't, at least not consistently. It's saying some of the right things, there are individual examples of people within the organisation trying to change, but it's been significantly slower to do so.
O.
As an active member of the RC church I can confirm that there are extensive procedures now in place help prevent future incidents and ensure any perceived misconduct is dealt with quickly, openly and efficiently.
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As an active member of the RC church I can confirm that there are extensive procedures now in place help prevent future incidents and ensure any perceived misconduct is dealt with quickly, openly and efficiently.
And yet the institution for years not only covered it up but facilitated it.
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As an active member of the RC church I can confirm that there are extensive procedures now in place help prevent future incidents and ensure any perceived misconduct is dealt with quickly, openly and efficiently.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! ::)
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I don't find it difficult to believe that new, effective measures are now in place. Nothing's infallible but the 'rules' are there to protect us and they have certainly tightened up.
Catholic friends of mine - good friends of long standing - were bemused, upset,disappointed when the big reveals started happening. It was all so far removed from their lives and that of the clergy/religious they knew. Only one talked to me about this, she popped over one day for a coffee and let it all out, it was many years ago. I just listened and think I understood how she felt. I never asked any of them about it, wouldn't have done that but she wanted to talk to me, we'd known each other from childhood.
That's going back a long time, when people often found the truth about such things too hard to contemplate. Now we know we have to contemplate.
D'you know what? Reading what i've just written made me think how I could never have been a police officer; I couldn't cope with knowing, hearing about, witnessing so many horrifically violent crimes. I wouldn't sleep. Just as well I never entertained the idea of being a cop. I do have two good friends, married couple, who were in the police force more than 20years (different stations); in mid forties they left the police and forged new careers. They have said some things but not a lot about their police years - they were happy then but felt it was time for a change.
One of their children plans to be a policeman.
The above paragraph is not particularly relevant I suppose (I don't care :P).
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As an active member of the RC church I can confirm that there are extensive procedures now in place help prevent future incidents and ensure any perceived misconduct is dealt with quickly, openly and efficiently.
Alan,
so far as I can see, the UK 'arm' of the church has been amongst the better elements, so far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but worldwide there's been a wide range of responses and not all of them have been particularly progressive.
O.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50320800
Vincent Nichols comments on paedophile priests saying how shocked the church is. Hmmmmmmmm! Even if the church hierarchy are trying to do something about it now, it is too little, too late, imo. :o
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Alan,
so far as I can see, the UK 'arm' of the church has been amongst the better elements, so far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but worldwide there's been a wide range of responses and not all of them have been particularly progressive.
O.
Like telling R C priests to stop telling lies to Africans, such as condoms don't help to prevent the spread of aids.
Your RC church has had and still does have a lot to answer for over many, many years, its past stunk like most religious organisations and it still has an unpleasant odour about it.
Commiserations AB, ippy.
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As an active member of the RC church I can confirm that there are extensive procedures now in place help prevent future incidents and ensure any perceived misconduct is dealt with quickly, openly and efficiently.
We've been told this for years, but it never changes anything.
From back in the 90s we were told that all the abuse was historical, from decades ago (e.g. the 70s) and that there were now robust procedures in place to prevent it ... yet ... fast forward 20 years and we are being told that all the abuse was historical (e.g. the 90s) and that there were now robust procedures in place to prevent it.
You see the problem.
Fundamental issue is that the RCC considers that is has an alternative and separate legal system that applies to priests, that is run by itself and distinct from the law of the land. Certainly when I looked into this a couple of years ago (and posted about) the flow chart for procedures for allegations of abuse by priests required that the Vatican was informed and made decisions on the next step prior to (and often not authorising) transferring the matter to the police. In no other organisation that I can think of would an allegation of an extremely serious criminal offence be dealt with internally - the first thing you would do is contact the police.
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The RCC have been very wrong not to have reported paedophile priests to the police, it is was not their place to keep it under wraps as they have tried to do for a very long time. >:(
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I think an institution which has turned blind eye to the terrible abuse over the years is morally bankrupt and despicable. >:(
Yes it is, but you have to remember that the people of the Roman Catholic Church are not the hierarchy and their faith is not dependent on the organisation.
The organisation is morally bankrupt which is especially egregious considering they have set themselves up as God's authority on Earth, but I don't judge the ordinary members of the church for not renouncing their faith.
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It's about time you got over the traumas of your childhood. We all have unpleasant experiences in our childhoods, but most of us don't use them as an excuse for our prejudices into our 60s and 70s. You also should learn that you shouldn't generalise from particular instances.
I don't have any traumatic childhood experiences that would compare remotely with those of LR.
Sometimes these things do screw you up for the rest of your life, which is why we take child abuse so seriously.
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Is that true? I can think of similar things happening in virtually of our political parties. And indeed most religious groups. Also on this subject a number of football clubs.
Nice piece of whataboutery there.
"Yeah it also happens in football clubs, so it's not all that bad". Yeah, I'm putting words into your mouth and I'm exaggerating your position, but some people will read my words into what you have said.
Anyway, the RCC is particularly bad in this respect, not because rates of abuse are necessarily higher amongst their employees but because of the way they reacted to the abuse. Namely, they systematically covered it up for decades. Not only that, but, as I stated above, the RCC claims a unique moral authority.
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Nice piece of whataboutery there.
"Yeah it also happens in football clubs, so it's not all that bad". Yeah, I'm putting words into your mouth and I'm exaggerating your position, but some people will read my words into what you have said.
Anyway, the RCC is particularly bad in this respect, not because rates of abuse are necessarily higher amongst their employees but because of the way they reacted to the abuse. Namely, they systematically covered it up for decades. Not only that, but, as I stated above, the RCC claims a unique moral authority.
You appear very confused about the tu quoque. I wasn't suggesting that because other institutions had done similar that it mitigates in any way the disgraceful approach of the RCC but challenging the claim that they have behaved uniquely badly - which they may have done - and stand apart from any other institutions in their approach.
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Up until the 1980s (& some longer), nobody seemed to know how to deal with child abuse. The idea of someone liked and respected doing things like that were were so shocking, it was difficult to believe.
I wonder if others saw a programme on TV not more than a couple of years ago, not to do with clergy but boys at boarding schools who were targeted by pervy teachers in the 1970s/80s. The boys couldn't even tell their parents, it was such a taboo subject. The way the men described how they were treated at school was chilling. There was even one guilty teacher who was interviewed and he was quite blase about it all. Horrible stuff. Found this article about it:-
https://www.itv.com/news/2018-02-18/shocking-scale-of-sexual-abuse-at-uk-boarding-schools-revealed-by-itv-documentary/
Bad things still happen but at least children now have a voice and everyone is fully aware of what goes on or might go on.
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You appear very confused about the tu quoque. I wasn't suggesting that because other institutions had done similar that it mitigates in any way the disgraceful approach of the RCC but challenging the claim that they have behaved uniquely badly - which they may have done - and stand apart from any other institutions in their approach.
There have, without doubt, been serious issues in other organisations, including other religious organisations.
However I do think there are some unique features that make the RCC particularly (uniquely) concerning. Not least:
1. The impact of enforced celibacy on priests
2. The deference expected to be paid to priests
3. The systemic cover-ups and obstructions to justice
4. The notion that the RCC operates its own legal system for priests with a systemic view that it is either/or as to whether allegations against priests are considered under the churches legal system or the law of the land
5. That the RCC operates as, and indeed the Vatican is, a separate state allowing priests accused of abuse to be moved to other countries or even to the 'safe haven' of the vatican which is beyond any other state's legal jurisdiction. In effect that priests are considered to be citizens of the Vatican state and have 'quasi' diplomatic immunity when acting in other countries.
6. Linked to the above that preserving the reputation of the RCC and Vatican always takes precedence over justice, even if that results in cover ups and obstruction of justice.
While a few of these elements may apply to other organisations, the Vatican seems unique in having them all.
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There have, without doubt, been serious issues in other organisations, including other religious organisations.
However I do think there are some unique features that make the RCC particularly (uniquely) concerning. Not least:
1. The impact of enforced celibacy on priests
2. The deference expected to be paid to priests
3. The systemic cover-ups and obstructions to justice
4. The notion that the RCC operates its own legal system for priests with a systemic view that it is either/or as to whether allegations against priests are considered under the churches legal system or the law of the land
5. That the RCC operates as, and indeed the Vatican is, a separate state allowing priests accused of abuse to be moved to other countries or even to the 'safe haven' of the vatican which is beyond any other state's legal jurisdiction. In effect that priests are considered to be citizens of the Vatican state and have 'quasi' diplomatic immunity when acting in other countries.
6. Linked to the above that preserving the reputation of the RCC and Vatican always takes precedence over justice, even if that results in cover ups and obstruction of justice.
While a few of these elements may apply to other organisations, the Vatican seems unique in having them all.
That's arse about face. Ther's no point in picking some attributes about the RCC that may be unique and saying that means they acted uniquely badly. You need to quantify the actions of the RCC in some way and compare to other institutions.
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Up until the 1980s (& some longer), nobody seemed to know how to deal with child abuse. The idea of someone liked and respected doing things like that were were so shocking, it was difficult to believe.
I wonder if others saw a programme on TV not more than a couple of years ago, not to do with clergy but boys at boarding schools who were targeted by pervy teachers in the 1970s/80s. The boys couldn't even tell their parents, it was such a taboo subject. The way the men described how they were treated at school was chilling. There was even one guilty teacher who was interviewed and he was quite blase about it all. Horrible stuff. Found this article about it:-
https://www.itv.com/news/2018-02-18/shocking-scale-of-sexual-abuse-at-uk-boarding-schools-revealed-by-itv-documentary/
Bad things still happen but at least children now have a voice and everyone is fully aware of what goes on or might go on.
I think that is a bit rose-tinted. Abusers are often deeply manipulative and it's still hard for many people to speak out.
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I think that is a bit rose-tinted. Abusers are often deeply manipulative and it's still hard for many people to speak out.
I agree.
I did speak out when the pastor of our church touched me inappropriately when I was 14, but wasn't believed by my parents who thought the sun shone out of his rear end! :o
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That doesn't surprise me. Horrible for you though. Typical of how people once were, couldn't contemplate that someone like him would do such a thing, probably thought you'd misunderstood. It sucks.
I agree about abusers being manipulative, they get into the heads of those they intend to abuse and can convince that black is white. There will always be such people unfortunately but all I was saying is things are better than they were.
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That doesn't surprise me. Horrible for you though. Typical of how people once were, couldn't contemplate that someone like him would do such a thing, probably thought you'd misunderstood. It sucks.
I agree about abusers being manipulative, they get into the heads of those they intend to abuse and can convince that black is white. There will always be such people unfortunately but all I was saying is things are better than they were.
Some of the oh so holy elders at the church were cheating on their wives. As I have mentioned before, one described to me, in intimate detail, what he would like to do with my mother in his hay loft. >:(
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I admire the noble start of the RC church where the main source of financing the Vatican with all of its elaborate, fabulous works of art and buildings was from their sale of indulgences when they would issue a get out of purgatory certificates for various amounts of time after you die and the amount of time that they, the RCC, would grant you depended on how much you paid for these certificates.
I can't help admiring the outstanding ethical and moral example the RCC gave to the world with the issuing of these certificates, what a wonderful organisation.
Regards, ippy.
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I admire the noble start of the RC church where the main source of financing the Vatican with all of its elaborate, fabulous works of art and buildings was from their sale of indulgences when they would issue a get out of purgatory certificates for various amounts of time after you die and the amount of time that they, the RCC, would grant you depended on how much you paid for these certificates.
I can't help admiring the outstanding ethical and moral example the RCC gave to the world with the issuing of these certificates, what a wonderful organisation.
Regards, ippy.
If true what a terrible scam which preys on the gullible. >:(
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If true what a terrible scam which preys on the gullible. >:(
I'm sure there may well be an opening for the always present semanticists but this account overall about the handing out of indulgences by the RCC is a true account L R.
If you go to YouTube and look up the debate about 'Is the catholic church a force for good in the World', listen to the whole of the debate and pay particular attention to Chris Hitching's contribution where he lists the things the catholic church should be apologising for, I was there, and I can tell you the list is staggering.
Regards, ippy.
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The Catholic church stopped the sale of indulgences in 1567, I remember learning about all that at school and as it was a subject well taught and interesting to me, I retained something of it. Have also read a fair bit over the years.
Ippy: If you go to YouTube and look up the debate about 'Is the catholic church a force for good in the World', listen to the whole of the debate and pay particular attention to Chris Hitching's contribution where he lists the things the catholic church should be apologising for, I was there, and I can tell you the list is staggering.
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It's a very sad fact that very little surprises or shocks me now with regard to religions, have heard others say the same. It just makes me feel as though all the energy has drained out of me. However I will watch the youtube video, Ippy, probably not all in one go.
When I was a child, maybe eleven/twelve, my mother talked to me about the Society of Friends and their history in which I was interested. She was a Quaker as were her parents and other family members. She told me something which I found unpalatable and I dwelt on it for ages. I asked her about it some time later and she said first of all that when she had learned about it, it had made her feel unhappy, she wanted to give me truth and not skirt around unpleasant details, people are human beings whatever their faith and there is sometimes societal conditioning difficult to shake off.
I took that on board and am glad I know but it really is hard to learn about misdeeds committed by people who have some standing (which they hide behind).
Going back to sexual abuse by clergy, that has never happened to me but I do know someone, a friend, older than me, who confided to me at one time what had happened to her at school when she was a teenager. It concerned a member of the clergy, a mature man. The subject came up because of a documentary we'd both seen and we were good friends, she knew I'd not discuss it with anyone likely to know her & actually this is the first time I've ever mentioned it and my friend died suddenly two years ago. Thankfully she did lead a very good and interesting life and was retired, planning to do a few more things & wasn't ill for a long time, had an accident.
The story was horrible & naturally she wasn't the only girl involved tho' didn't know that at the time. Another girl tried to report him and told head teacher; she was not believed and was expelled! It all came out years later, was even in local papers. He became ill and died, other people he worked with had to pick up the pieces, organise compensation etc.
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I admire the noble start of the RC church where the main source of financing the Vatican with all of its elaborate, fabulous works of art and buildings was from their sale of indulgences when they would issue a get out of purgatory certificates for various amounts of time after you die and the amount of time that they, the RCC, would grant you depended on how much you paid for these certificates.
I can't help admiring the outstanding ethical and moral example the RCC gave to the world with the issuing of these certificates, what a wonderful organisation.
Regards, ippy.
Heavy sarcasm rarely improves an argument.
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Heavy sarcasm rarely improves an argument.
Aye, right
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Agree with Steveh & NS.
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Heavy sarcasm rarely improves an argument.
You may well be right Steve, even so which part of my post about the Catholic church wasn't true and those two things didn't include any reference to their, proven, worldwide penchant for wholesale child abuse, you could say the Catholic church as an organisation is very slightly unwholesome or maybe that's stretching it a bit do you think?
Regards, ippy.
P S Look this up on YouTube: 'Hitchens Eviscerates the Catholic Church' and make up your own minds, he's notorious for his accuracy.
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We've all read & heard Hitchens ippy.
Far better to read, digest, talk to people, find things out for yourself and then present your own well thought out conclusions based on in-depth research. Or not bother at all.
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We've all read & heard Hitchens ippy.
Far better to read, digest, talk to people, find things out for yourself and then present your own well thought out conclusions based on in-depth research. Or not bother at all.
OK Robbie, you say we've all read and heard Hitchens, what part of his dismemberment of Catholicism he came out with at the debate about, 'Is the Catholic Church a Force for Good In the World', had he got wrong or where, in what part of the things he was saying was he just plainly making things up about the Catholics?
Regards, ippy.
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I see that the RCC are refusing to report sexual abuse of children if revealed during confession.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/08/priests-would-rather-die-break-seal-confession-cardinal-nichols/
UK law requires every person, in whatever walk of life, to report allegations of sexual abuse of children to the authorities. This is a positive obligation - you must report it, rather than for most crimes where there is no obligation to pro-actively report, although you mustn't frustrate the police if you are asked about a crime.
So in effect the RCC are sanctioning breaking the law in order to hide child sex abuse from the authorities and pervert the course of justice.
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I see that the RCC are refusing to report sexual abuse of children if revealed during confession.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/08/priests-would-rather-die-break-seal-confession-cardinal-nichols/
UK law requires every person, in whatever walk of life, to report allegations of sexual abuse of children to the authorities. This is a positive obligation - you must report it, rather than for most crimes where there is no obligation to pro-actively report, although you mustn't frustrate the police if you are asked about a crime.
So in effect the RCC are sanctioning breaking the law in order to hide child sex abuse from the authorities and pervert the course of justice.
'UK law requires every person, in whatever walk of life' I know the idea was discussed but my memory was that it was dropped and there remains only a duty on certain individuals and organisations?
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'UK law requires every person, in whatever walk of life' I know the idea was discussed but my memory was that it was dropped and there remains only a duty on certain individuals and organisations?
When I was discussing the topic with our vicar daughter, she seemed to think that it was illegal for anyone, including priests, to withhold information about any serious crime, including paedophile priests.
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When I was discussing the topic with our vicar daughter, she seemed to think that it was illegal for anyone, including priests, to withhold information about any serious crime, including paedophile priests.
Definitely not any serious crime. and for child abuse only on the basis of their employment
https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/child-abuse/
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You appear very confused about the tu quoque. I wasn't suggesting that because other institutions had done similar that it mitigates in any way the disgraceful approach of the RCC but challenging the claim that they have behaved uniquely badly - which they may have done - and stand apart from any other institutions in their approach.
But they are uniquely bad for the reasons I stated.
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I admire the noble start of the RC church where the main source of financing the Vatican with all of its elaborate, fabulous works of art and buildings was from their sale of indulgences when they would issue a get out of purgatory certificates for various amounts of time after you die and the amount of time that they, the RCC, would grant you depended on how much you paid for these certificates.
I can't help admiring the outstanding ethical and moral example the RCC gave to the world with the issuing of these certificates, what a wonderful organisation.
Regards, ippy.
Well, at least the RCC eventually gave up on the sale of indulgences, once their bluff was called. Okay, it took till the 16th century for it to do so, probably because of the influence of Martin Luther and the Reformation. It might be argued that the latter was a mixed blessing, since it came along with the "Bible Only" doctrine, which in turn led to the barmy army of American fundamentalists of our day who are so influential in presidential elections (to name but one of the horrors they contribute massively to). Child abuse is of course rife in the "Bible Only" brigade (the Jehovah's Witnesses have an appalling record in this). Not to mention utter hypocrisy in regard to all kinds of sexual behaviour, which such fundi groups publicly condemn, whilst indulging in to excess in their private lives*.
It could be argued that in other respects The Reformation set social progress back several hundred years, since the "Bible Only" brigade were initially more anti-science than the Catholics were - but that's another argument.
*Check out the Reverend Ted Haggard, who had a notorious confrontation with Richard Dawkins. I don't know which is the more contemptible - Haggard's anti-evolution beliefs or his utter sexual hypocrisy (at least the latter might cause some amusement, and I certainly can't avoid a degree of Schadenfreude).
P.S. checking out the YouTube video of the above, someone has commented of Haggard's appearance "Lips made for meth pipes and fellatio".
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You may well be right Steve, even so which part of my post about the Catholic church wasn't true and those two things didn't include any reference to their, proven, worldwide penchant for wholesale child abuse, you could say the Catholic church as an organisation is very slightly unwholesome or maybe that's stretching it a bit do you think?
Regards, ippy.
P S Look this up on YouTube: 'Hitchens Eviscerates the Catholic Church' and make up your own minds, he's notorious for his accuracy.
Hitchens was a tiresome twat: I'm instinctively inclined to think more kindly of anyone or any institution he attacked. (His brother Peter is even more of a twat.)
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Hitchens was a tiresome twat: I'm instinctively inclined to think more kindly of anyone or any institution he attacked. (His brother Peter is even more of a twat.)
Steve H
I love to see you triggered , and the responses you give to things you don't like .
I bet you've got no teddies left in your pram now !
It's so amusing hahaha 😂