Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on May 20, 2020, 08:08:43 PM
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YouTube seems to be pushing Humanism onto me recommending I watch Alice Roberts on behalf of Humanism UK talk about morals without religion...….should I watch it or might I be proselytised?
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YouTube seems to be pushing Humanism onto me recommending I watch Alice Roberts on behalf of Humanism UK talk about morals without religion...….should I watch it or might I be proselytised?
You've done something to trigger this. I think you've secretly been watching Sandi Toksvig clips. Come on admit it.
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Vlad
If one wants to prevent something being rammed down one's throat, it may prove helpful to keep one's mouth shut.
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YouTube seems to be pushing Humanism onto me recommending I watch Alice Roberts on behalf of Humanism UK talk about morals without religion...….should I watch it or might I be proselytised?
Clearly you've spent too much time googling humanism so these videos have starting pinging up on your feed.
Up to you whether to watch or not - but perhaps if you did you might learn a little about the difference between atheism, secularism and humanism.
I suspect you aren't getting any links to anti-theism sites, or philosophical naturalism sites. Why ... well because these don't really exist in the real world as philosophies and positions that people 'sign up to' (unlike atheism, secularism and humanism) - they really only exist in that weird place that is Vlad's brain.
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Had never heard of her, but just watched a few videos. Her lecture at U of Birmingham on her "Origins of Us" was interesting. My belief in God--especially Jesus' emphasis on Love--has never been challenged by science or Darwin's obviously prescient insight into the biological origins of everything that exists today. Part of that may be why I've moved away from religious doctrine and more towards the basic teachings of Jesus. I have no doubt that future paleontologists, biologist, and those who research evolution will end up finding that the teachings of Jesus will explain most why all life evolved to where we are today. Those who love, even if that means sacrifice, eventually survive.
One of my most memorable university experiences was being a part of a round table with Ernst Myer who talked about his own research into the evidence of altruism at the cellular level. It was as if a light turned on, and I finally saw how Jesus was giving us the key to the best of life, regardless of where we are on the spectrum, and even if it means sacrifice. (The key, which is often missed by the most religious in Christianity, is love without thought of personal gain. Sadly, Christianity has too often been more about personal gain than the true love that Jesus said was the true governor of all that is right, of all that is life.)
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Had never heard of her, but just watched a few videos. Her lecture at U of Birmingham on her "Origins of Us" was interesting. My belief in God--especially Jesus' emphasis on Love--has never been challenged by science or Darwin's obviously prescient insight into the biological origins of everything that exists today. Part of that may be why I've moved away from religious doctrine and more towards the basic teachings of Jesus. I have no doubt that future paleontologists, biologist, and those who research evolution will end up finding that the teachings of Jesus will explain most why all life evolved to where we are today. Those who love, even if that means sacrifice, eventually survive.
One of my most memorable university experiences was being a part of a round table with Ernst Myer who talked about his own research into the evidence of altruism at the cellular level. It was as if a light turned on, and I finally saw how Jesus was giving us the key to the best of life, regardless of where we are on the spectrum, and even if it means sacrifice. (The key, which is often missed by the most religious in Christianity, is love without thought of personal gain. Sadly, Christianity has too often been more about personal gain than the true love that Jesus said was the true governor of all that is right, of all that is life.)
While it may be the case that you can read altruism into the anecdotal Jesus stories, and indeed stories about many other people, would you not agree that the concept of altruism can be understood without reference to Jesus or Christianity and that religions do not have exclusive rights to altruism?
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The key, which is often missed by the most religious in Christianity, is love without thought of personal gain.
But isn't this exactly the core values of humanism, albeit typically expressed in a different manner. In other words a direct relationship between people (no need for god as a middle man or woman) based on empathy and expressed as treating others as you would like to be treated yourself.
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Vlad
If one wants to prevent something being rammed down one's throat, it may prove helpful to keep one's mouth shut.
QUIET SNIGGER! Followed by a huge Belly Laugh that I just couldn't keep in!
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While it may be the case that you can read altruism into the anecdotal Jesus stories, and indeed stories about many other people, would you not agree that the concept of altruism can be understood without reference to Jesus or Christianity and that religions do not have exclusive rights to altruism?
Yes. Yes. For me? I was just introduced to the concept through Jesus, which is what made him so relevant to me.
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Yes. Yes. For me? I was just introduced to the concept through Jesus, which is what made him so relevant to me.
I think that many people brought up within a broadly christian culture are introduced to altruism through Jesus, including me. But as I grew up and learned more about a variety of cultures and societies I recognised that altruism has been around for as long as humans have been around, and also exists in many other social animal species. It is a fundamental attribute that supports the success of social animals.
So Jesus didn't 'invent' altruism (you can thank evolution for that) nor discover or rediscover it (societies have known about it and understood it throughout history). Sure there are some nice stories about altruism involving Jesus, but that's about it really in terms of a unique contribution on altruism from Jesus (and even that isn't unique as there a loads of parable-type stories espousing altruism).
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YouTube seems to be pushing Humanism onto me recommending I watch Alice Roberts on behalf of Humanism UK talk about morals without religion...….should I watch it or might I be proselytised?
Another of your silly posts, if you don't like it, don't watch it! ::)
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So Jesus didn't 'invent' altruism (you can thank evolution for that) nor discover or rediscover it (societies have known about it and understood it throughout history). Sure there are some nice stories about altruism involving Jesus, but that's about it really in terms of a unique contribution on altruism from Jesus (and even that isn't unique as there a loads of parable-type stories espousing altruism).
Agree. He doesn't claim to either, which is interesting. What fascinates me about Jesus (and later the teachings of the Buddha) is how anti-survival his message is: "turn the other cheek," "forgive seventy-times seven," "love your enemies," etc... He suggests we not worry about tomorrow in terms of physical comfort and survival, and that those who give up their lives actually save it.
It was Ernst Mayr who suggested that altruism has been the main driver in survival where one or more puts the genetic group ahead of its individual self, more so than the "fittest" being brute strength and cunning. I remember thinking as he lectured that this is what Jesus is likely talking about, that we are altogether better off if we think in terms of the others being more important than ourselves.
I don't know exactly where I am with regards to the Christian construct of God's character, role, or plan/design. But, I strongly believe whatever God is, it points to the things Jesus taught, that there is a higher good where most will benefit if we try to adopt them as our own (very difficult to do.)
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It was Ernst Mayr who suggested that altruism has been the main driver in survival where one or more puts the genetic group ahead of its individual self, more so than the "fittest" being brute strength and cunning. I remember thinking as he lectured that this is what Jesus is likely talking about, that we are altogether better off if we think in terms of the others being more important than ourselves.
I think that is correct that altruism in the human species and other primates that live in highly developed social groups produces a better overall outcome. The point is that survival of the individual is inextricably linked to the strength of the group rather than the strength of the individual. Cooperation is key and cooperation and altruism work hand in hand. There is a lot of work in game theory that support this notion - develop a situation where there are two individuals and one can win big if the other loses and vice versa or both can win small and the most successful behaviour overall is cooperation and a situation of effective reciprocal altruism - each helps out the other with an overall mutually beneficial result.
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Agree. He doesn't claim to either, which is interesting. What fascinates me about Jesus (and later the teachings of the Buddha) is how anti-survival his message is: "turn the other cheek," "forgive seventy-times seven," "love your enemies," etc... He suggests we not worry about tomorrow in terms of physical comfort and survival, and that those who give up their lives actually save it.
While I have no issue with the tenets of 'love your enemy' etc I do have a problem that Jesus' teaching comes across as a set of rules, without supporting the understanding of 'why' you should follow those rules, except in terms of the religious end-game of paradise.
The humanist message is effectively the same in tenet but the messaging is far more understandable and compelling to me. The basic golden rule - treat others as you would wish to be treated, can be simply substitutes for "turn the other cheek," "forgive seventy-times seven," "love your enemies," but explains much better why and puts empathy, respect and understanding towards other humans front and centre, rather than pleasing god.
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Humanism is merely a Christianity tribute act.
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Vlad
If one wants to prevent something being rammed down one's throat, it may prove helpful to keep one's mouth shut.
Humanism would find another hole.
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Humanism would find another hole.
...that would be the one that you talk out of most of the time?
::)
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...that would be the one that you talk out of most of the time?
::)
Takes one to know one I suppose.
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Takes one to know one I suppose.
What happened?
Were you feeling a bit funny?
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Humanism is merely a Christianity tribute act.
On the contrary, while people may not describe it as such, the basic concepts of humanism have universality that christianity and other religions cannot compete with as it is amenable to everyone regardless of whether you believe in god or not. I have no doubt that ancient early human societies were living by the basic tenets of humanism tens of thousands of years before christianity arose.
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On the contrary, while people may not describe it as such, the basic concepts of humanism have universality that christianity and other religions cannot compete with as it is amenable to everyone regardless of whether you believe in god or not. I have no doubt that ancient early human societies were living by the basic tenets of humanism tens of thousands of years before christianity arose.
Oh so people of antiquity once slated for being "bronze aged goatherders" were really sophisticated Alice Robert's and Andrew Copson types. What a virtuoso historical revision you weave Professor.
Humanism may once have been an all inclusive thing but alas has lturned into a largely atheist only club.
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Oh so people of antiquity once slated for being "bronze aged goatherders" were really sophisticated Alice Robert's and Andrew Copson types. What a virtuoso historical revision you weave Professor.
Oh dear - how poorly informed you are Vlad.
Not only has humanism been around for millennia prior to christianity, but unlike christianity is has sprung up many times in many places completely independently - eg. ancient china, india, early american tribes, greece etc etc. You do understand that the modern coining of the term humanism in the 19thC is directly borrowed from its early Greek formulation which dates back to at least 600 years before Jesus.
Humanism may once have been an all inclusive thing but alas has largely atheist only club.
Untrue humanism does require god, but it perfectly amenable to those who do believe in god. And there is a long, long tradition (much longer than christianity) of theist/religious humanist cultures.
I fully accept the Humanists UK is pretty atheist in its outlook, but to imply that Humanists UK is representative of all strands of humanism now and in the past is as irrelevant as implying that the Westborough Baptist church is representative of all christianity now and in the past. Now, of course that I am implying that HumanistsUk (a forward thinking and positive organisation) is anything like the odious Westborough Baptist church.
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Oh so people of antiquity once slated for being "bronze aged goatherders" were really sophisticated Alice Robert's and Andrew Copson types. What a virtuoso historical revision you weave Professor.
Humanism may once have been an all inclusive thing but alas has lturned into a largely atheist only club.
is this you doing a is the Pope Catholic headline? Not a humanist but bemused by what point you think you are making.
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Oh dear - how poorly informed you are Vlad.
Not only has humanism been around for millennia prior to christianity, but unlike christianity is has sprung up many times in many places completely independently - eg. ancient china, india, early american tribes, greece etc etc. You do understand that the modern coining of the term humanism in the 19thC is directly borrowed from its early Greek formulation which dates back to at least 600 years before Jesus.
Untrue humanism does require god, but it perfectly amenable to those who do believe in god. And there is a long, long tradition (much longer than christianity) of theist/religious humanist cultures.
I fully accept the Humanists UK is pretty atheist in its outlook, but to imply that Humanists UK is representative of all strands of humanism now and in the past is as irrelevant as implying that the Westborough Baptist church is representative of all christianity now and in the past. Now, of course that I am implying that HumanistsUk (a forward thinking and positive organisation) is anything like the odious Westborough Baptist church.
Whatever you say might well be true but humanism UK as it stands is the result of infiltration by campaigning atheists like Dawkins. It even imported self professed antitheists like Krauss from the states. It can fairly I think be labelled as a rabid atheist front.
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Whatever you say might well be true but humanism UK as it stands is the result of infiltration by campaigning atheists like Dawkins. It even imported self professed antitheists like Krauss from the states. It can fairly I think be labelled as a rabid atheist front.
Straw man argument.
My point was that humanism has been around for considerably longer than christianity (indeed just this morning on radio 4 there was a programme about the ancient Greeks that specifically mentioned humanism), unlike christianity it has sprung up independently in different places and cultures unlike christianity (confirming its broader universality), and that it holding to humanist principles is not incompatible with being a theist.
That HumanistsUK holds a bespoke set of views linking humanism with atheism - so what, they don't define humanism throughout the world and throughout history. Methodists don't believe you should drink alcohol. If you are being consistent in your views Vlad you must surely think that drinking alcohol is not consistent with being a christian - do you Vlad?
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Straw man argument.
My point was that humanism has been around for considerably longer than christianity (indeed just this morning on radio 4 there was a programme about the ancient Greeks that specifically mentioned humanism), unlike christianity it has sprung up independently in different places and cultures unlike christianity (confirming its broader universality), and that it holding to humanist principles is not incompatible with being a theist.
That HumanistsUK holds a bespoke set of views linking humanism with atheism - so what, they don't define humanism throughout the world and throughout history. Methodists don't believe you should drink alcohol. If you are being consistent in your views Vlad you must surely think that drinking alcohol is not consistent with being a christian - do you Vlad?
The Christian view is Christ and him crucified.
Only theological ignorance could state that abstinence from Alcohol was a christian view.
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The Christian view is Christ and him crucified.
Only theological ignorance could stae that abstinence fro. Alcohol was a christian view.
That sentence makes no sense at all.
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The Christian view is Christ and him crucified.
Only theological ignorance could state that abstinence from Alcohol was a christian view.
Methodists would disagree.
Humanism is a philosophical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively.
Only philosophical ignorance could state that atheism and humanism are one and the same - although HumanistsUK might disagree.
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That sentence makes no sense at all.
Maybe Vlad is drunk - bit early for that I'd have thought, but might explain his post.
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Methodists would disagree.
Humanism is a philosophical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively.
Only philosophical ignorance could state that atheism and humanism are one and the same - although HumanistsUK might disagree.
Methodists often agree with abstinence...and they would agree with methodism.......but I doubt many would say that either abstinence nor even methodism were the take home message of Christianity.
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Methodists often agree with abstinence...and they would agree with methodism.......but I doubt many would say that either abstinence nor even methodism were the take home message of Christianity.
Humanists often are atheist ... but I doubt that many would say that atheism was the take home message of humanism.
The point is that you do not need to be atheist to accept the tenets of humanism - and I'd be pretty confident that over the centuries the vast majority of humanists (i.e. those who agree with a philosophical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively) will have also believed in god.
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Humanists often are atheist ... but I doubt that many would say that atheism was the take home message of humanism.
The point is that you do not need to be atheist to accept the tenets of humanism - and I'd be pretty confident that over the centuries the vast majority of humanists (i.e. those who agree with a philosophical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively) will have also believed in god.
You are relating a history there Professor. But we are where we are......Humanism UK, the atheist movement.
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You are relating a history there Professor.
So you accept the history of humanism then Vlad - a ethical philosophy that has existed for far longer than christianity - that has demonstrated greater universality than christianity as it has sprung up independently in places as diverse as Greece, China, India and the Americas.
But we are where we are......Humanism UK, the atheist movement.
You can't even get the name right can you Vlad. And HumanistsUK never has been, nor is currently and I suspect never will be the global arbiter of humanism.
There are Christian Socialist organisations - does that mean somehow that all Christians must be socialists and that all socialists must be Christians.
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Having Islam Ramadan my throat.
Having the Edsels ramalamadingdong my throat.
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Oh so people of antiquity once slated for being "bronze aged goatherders"
That characterisation is often used to describe the people who wrote the Bible and I hate it. The Bible wasn't written in the Bronze age - that was mostly over by the first millennium BC in the Levant. It also wasn't written by goat herders, unless they were extremely well educated goat herders who could write.
were really sophisticated Alice Robert's and Andrew Copson types.
Who says you have to be sophisticated to live by the tenets of humanism?
Humanism may once have been an all inclusive thing but alas has lturned into a largely atheist only club.
But non atheists aren't excluded. It's their choice not to be humanists.
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Humanism may once have been an all inclusive thing but alas has turned into a largely atheist only club.
For what it's worth, I consider myself both a Christian and a humanist, and I'm sure there are many more at the liberal ends of both Christianity and Humanism.
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For what it's worth, I consider myself both a Christian and a humanist, and I'm sure there are many more at the liberal ends of both Christianity and Humanism.
Sorry. Humanism is an atheist only club. If you were a humanist, it would demolish Vlad's argument.