Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Literature, Music, Art & Entertainment => Topic started by: Sriram on August 11, 2022, 02:26:37 PM
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Hi everyone,
A nice article about Enid Blyton.....written by a friend's daughter btw.
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20220809-enid-blyton-the-british-author-loved-in-india
It is very true that we were very much influenced by Enid Blyton and the magic she created with her characters and description of the small town life styles and places. I was addicted to Enid Blyton.
It is a different matter that when I actually met some British people and worked with them in later years, I was shocked at the deeply political and divisive mind set of the people I worked with. Most people I knew were all the time complaining and scheming against the bosses and against everyone else in the company. Never a good word about anyone....though always very polite externally! :(
Anyway, had a pleasant childhood thanks in part to Enid Blyton.
Cheers.
Sriram
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I enjoyed Blyton's books when I was a young child, she was a good writer.
Appararently Blyton's personal life was far from good. She is reputed to have had a series of affairs when married and even a lesbian relationship. I feel sorry for her children.
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I enjoyed Blyton's books when I was a young child, she was a good writer.
Appararently Blyton's personal life was far from good. She is reputed to have had a series of affairs when married and even a lesbian relationship. I feel sorry for her children.
You feel sorry for Blyton's children because she had 'even a lesbian relationship'? Oh look your homophobia is showing.
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You feel sorry for Blyton's children because she had 'even a lesbian relationship'? Oh look your homophobia is showing.
I have absolutely NO problems whatsoever with lesbian/gay relationships. I do have a problem with people having affairs when married, Blyton apparently had several.
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I enjoyed Blyton's books when I was a young child, she was a good writer.
Appararently Blyton's personal life was far from good. She is reputed to have had a series of affairs when married and even a lesbian relationship. I feel sorry for her children.
Not sure why it's even a lesbian relationship. It's a relationship out of marriage sure, but all the same thing really.
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I have absolutely NO problems whatsoever with lesbian/gay relationships. I do have a problem with people having affairs when married, Blyton apparently had several.
You used the word 'even'. Here it implies somehow being worse. Your homophobia is obvious.
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You used the word 'even'. Here it implies somehow being worse. Your homophobia is obvious.
I agree I should have worded it better. I am definitely NOT homophobic.
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I agree I should have worded it better. I am definitely NOT homophobic.
No worries.
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I agree I should have worded it better. I am definitely NOT homophobic.
Why do you think you worded it that way?
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Why do you think you worded it that way?
I said I should have worded it better. I am NOT and never have been homophobic. I have always supported people in person and on-line who are gay.
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Whatever Roses is, and I can think of a few uncomplimentary descriptions, she is not a homophobe, nor did she say anything that a reasonable person would intepret as homophobic. How about getting back to EB?
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Whatever Roses is, and I can think of a few uncomplimentary descriptions, she is not a homophobe, nor did she say anything that a reasonable person would intepret as homophobic. How about getting back to EB?
So you think that saying 'even' in this case, i.e. saying it's worse, isn't homophobic. That's because you're homophobic.
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So you think that saying 'even' in this case, i.e. saying it's worse, isn't homophobic. That's because you're homophobic.
Edited. I don't think there is anything homophobic about Roses' "even". it simply expresses understandable mild surprise at an essentially hetero woman having a lesbian fling. Now,if NS has quite finished insulting all and sundry, perhaps we could get back to discussing Enid Blyton.
I read and enjoyed a few of her books as a kid, particularly in the "The ... of Adventure' series, but I was never a huge fan.
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Edited. I don't think there is anything homophobic about Roses' "even". it simply expresses understandable mild surprise at an essentially hetero woman having a lesbian fling. Now,if NS has quite finished insulting all and sundry, perhaps we could get back to discussing Enid Blyton.
I read and enjoyed a few of her books as a kid, particularly in the "The ... of Adventure' series, but I was never a huge fan.
Thanks Steve. :)
As I stated before I should have worded my original comment better. I was just surprised Blyton had a fling with a woman because all the others had been with men. I am getting rather irritated with NS for calling me a homophobe when I am absolutely nothing of the sort. :o I have gay relatives and regard them in the same way as my heterosexual ones. Being happy and faithful in the relationship you are in is what is important not whether you are gay or straight. One of my artwork pictures I did about 20 years ago is called, 'Trinity of Love', I created it for a gay man and his partner.
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Edited. I don't think there is anything homophobic about Roses' "even". it simply expresses understandable mild surprise at an essentially hetero woman having a lesbian fling. Now,if NS has quite finished insulting all and sundry, perhaps we could get back to discussing Enid Blyton.
I read and enjoyed a few of her books as a kid, particularly in the "The ... of Adventure' series, but I was never a huge fan.
Agree on the comments alleging "homophobia", especially as neither Roses' or Blyton's personal morality need reflect on the topic.
On the whole I've never had a positive view of Blyton's work, finding her writing and plots over-simplified and predictable. In some cases I've noticed, or thought I noticed, a racist or at least nationalist tone - that I've found distasteful - don't ask me for examples because I have no clue now.
However ... around the age of 5 or so (iirc) I read and reread a couple of books from the The Faraway Tree series - probably the second and third. I enjoyed them enormously and, in retrospect, I think they have had a big influence on my outlook and, indirectly, life. I didn't know the author and only found out years later it was Enid Blyton!
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Agree on the comments alleging "homophobia", especially as neither Roses' or Blyton's personal morality need reflect on the topic.
On the whole I've never had a positive view of Blyton's work, finding her writing and plots over-simplified and predictable. In some cases I've noticed, or thought I noticed, a racist or at least nationalist tone - that I've found distasteful - don't ask me for examples because I have no clue now.
However ... around the age of 5 or so (iirc) I read and reread a couple of books from the The Faraway Tree series - probably the second and third. I enjoyed them enormously and, in retrospect, I think they have had a big influence on my outlook and, indirectly, life. I didn't know the author and only found out years later it was Enid Blyton!
It was Roses who introduced the subject of Blyton's morality. And phrased it in a way she accepts was infelicitous, and I would suggest reads as homophobic. Do you disagree that it's a reasonable reading of the use of the word 'even' as seeing the lesbian relationship as worse?
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Thanks Steve. :)
As I stated before I should have worded my original comment better. I was just surprised Blyton had a fling with a woman because all the others had been with men. I am getting rather irritated with NS for calling me a homophobe when I am absolutely nothing of the sort. :o I have gay relatives and regard them in the same way as my heterosexual ones. Being happy and faithful in the relationship you are in is what is important not whether you are gay or straight. One of my artwork pictures I did about 20 years ago is called, 'Trinity of Love', I created it for a gay man and his partner.
Do you disagree that your bad phrasing could reasonably read as homophobic?
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Do you disagree that your bad phrasing could reasonably read as homophobic?
I suppose it could and I apologise for that. :o
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It was Roses who introduced the subject of Blyton's morality. And phrased it in a way she accepts was infelicitous, and I would suggest reads as homophobic. Do you disagree that it's a reasonable reading of the use of the word 'even' as seeing the lesbian relationship as worse?
Yes, it can be read that way but, obviously, was not what she meant.
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Yes, it can be read that way but, obviously, was not what she meant.
So it's a reasonable reading but obvious that it isn't? Sorry, don't understand that.
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Udayana has raised the idea that Blyton's writing was racist, which is a not unknown charge. I know the idea that the golliwogs being shown as lazy has been seen as part of it but beyond that not looked into it. Anyone else better informed, or have clear opinion?
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She was undoubtedly racist, sexist and snobbish, in a mild sort of way, but no more so than was normal in her day.
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She was undoubtedly racist, sexist and snobbish, in a mild sort of way, but no more so than was normal in her day.
That's my opinion as well but then it's a half a century since I read them so not sure if I have missed stuff
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She was also very naive, which led to unfortunate book titles such as "Mr Pink-whistle Interferes".
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She was also very naive, which led to unfortunate book titles such as "Mr Pink-whistle Interferes".
indeed, see cover below
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So it's a reasonable reading but obvious that it isn't? Sorry, don't understand that.
It could be a reasonable reading if you didn't know the context. After all these years we probably know Roses views on everything - so no need to focus in on possibly ambiguous phrasing that may imply some kind of unconscious bias.
As the context is a discussion of Enid Blyton and her works and influence, we might be better off discussing whether Blyton herself was (or wasn't) racist, homophobic, sexist etc, given that (as per Sriram's link) many of her works are being rewritten to take out the use of ethnic and gender stereotypes.
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It could be a reasonable reading if you didn't know the context. After all these years we probably know Roses views on everything - so no need to focus in on possibly ambiguous phrasing that may imply some kind of unconscious bias.
As the context is a discussion of Enid Blyton and her works and influence, we might be better off discussing whether Blyton herself was (or wasn't) racist, homophobic, sexist etc, given that (as per Sriram's link) many of her works are being rewritten to take out the use of ethnic and gender stereotypes.
Disagree. It's nice to know your opinion, and to note that you think that Roses may have unconscious homophobia. Are you saying that if that appears to be the case we should just ignore it?
As for the discussion of Blyton herself, that's happening but thanks for the false dichotomy.
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She was undoubtedly racist, sexist and snobbish, in a mild sort of way, but no more so than was normal in her day.
Can we infer whether she was racist, sexist, snobbish etc herself, rather than her writing in itself - which probably was written in the context of conventional stereotypes? After all, her personal life seems to have been rather unconventional.
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Can we infer whether she was racist, sexist, snobbish etc herself, rather than her writing in itself - which probably was written in the context of conventional stereotypes? After all, her personal life seems to have been rather unconventional.
Does an unconventional personal life somehow imply you are not racist, sexist, snobbish?
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Disagree. It's nice to know your opinion, and to note that you think that Roses may have unconscious homophobia. Are you saying that if that appears to be the case we should just ignore it?
Well, generally anyone can have an unconscious bias on on anything so, unless that is the issue in question, I wouldn't comment.
As for the discussion of Blyton herself, that's happening but thanks for the false dichotomy.
Ah yes, I see you moved the topic along.
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Well, generally anyone can have an unconscious bias on on anything so, unless that is the issue in question, I wouldn't comment.
Ah yes, I see you moved the topic along.
We approach things differently. If there appears to be a homophobic bias, unconscious or not, I don't see why you should give it a pass.
Say the post had said that Blyton had had many affairs, even an interracial one? You honestly want to give that a free pass?
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Does an unconventional personal life somehow imply you are not racist, sexist, snobbish?
Of-course not. Her writing was conventional (to my mind at least) - but she was unconventional. Her writing was racist but that does not mean that she herself held racist views - just as Tolkien was adamantly anti-racist but his books are full of racist tropes.
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Of-course not. Her writing was conventional (to my mind at least) - but she was unconventional. Her writing was racist but that does not mean that she herself held racist views - just as Tolkien was adamantly anti-racist but his books are full of racist tropes.
Then her unconventional life is irrelevant to whether she was racist, sexist, homophobic, so why mention it in the context?
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We approach things differently. If there appears to be a homophobic bias, unconscious or not, I don't see why you should give it a pass.
Say the post had said that Blyton had had many affairs, even an interracial one? You honestly want to give that a free pass?
hmm.. I don't agree that Blyton was "bad" as she had affairs (and Roses didn't say that exactly) so wouldn't take "even an interracial one" as implying that interracial affairs were "even worse" - rather than just reflecting how unconventional interracial affairs were at the time.
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Then her unconventional life is irrelevant to whether she was racist, sexist, homophobic, so why mention it in the context?
Only as racism, sexism homophobic were quite conventional attitudes when she was writing.
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hmm.. I don't agree that Blyton was "bad" as she had affairs (and Roses didn't say that exactly) so wouldn't take "even an interracial one" as implying that interracial affairs were "even worse" - rather than just reflecting how unconventional interracial affairs were at the time.
'Didn't say that exactly' are mealy mouthed words when to quote what Roses said
'Appararently Blyton's personal life was far from good. She is reputed to have had a series of affairs when married'
And then adds
'and even a lesbian relationship. I feel sorry for her children.'
The entire post is about Blyton being 'far from good' and then feeling 'sorry for her children'. And in that context the 'even' portrays the lesbian relationship as worse. Given thT Roses has accepted it's badly phrased, and you've said it may indicative of unconscious bias, not really seeing what you are trying to argue.
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Only as racism, sexism homophobic were quite conventional attitudes when she was writing.
So we are back at the implication that somehow an unconventional lifestyle is an argument that she didn't hold racist, sexist or homophobic views.
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So we are back at the implication that somehow an unconventional lifestyle is an argument that she didn't hold racist, sexist or homophobic views.
No, it is not an argument... Conventional views form a set of which racist, sexist, homophobic views are subsets. Logically, ~conventional does not imply ~sexist, ~racist and/or ~homophobic.
All I intended to say was that from "her writing was conventional" one can't assume that she herself was (or was not) racist, sexist and homophobic.
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No, it is not an argument... Conventional views form a set of which racist, sexist, homophobic views are subsets. Logically, ~conventional does not imply ~sexist, ~racist and/or ~homophobic.
All I intended to say was that from "her writing was conventional" one can't assume that she herself was (or was not) racist, sexist and homophobic.
So her 'unconventional' life is entirely irrelevant to your position, so why mention it.
Are you also suggesting that her writing, if sexist, racist, and/or homophobic, is not in any sense evidence if she was?
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Can we infer whether she was racist, sexist, snobbish etc herself, rather than her writing in itself - which probably was written in the context of conventional stereotypes? After all, her personal life seems to have been rather unconventional.
Hair-splitting.
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Does an unconventional personal life somehow imply you are not racist, sexist, snobbish?
It suggests (not "somehow") that you are less likely to be.
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It suggests (not "somehow") that you are less likely to be.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
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'Didn't say that exactly' are mealy mouthed words when to quote what Roses said
'Appararently Blyton's personal life was far from good. She is reputed to have had a series of affairs when married'
And then adds
'and even a lesbian relationship. I feel sorry for her children.'
and wuestioning it when it The entire post is about Blyton being 'far from good' and then feeling 'sorry for her children'. And in that context the 'even' portrays the lesbian relationship as worse. Given thT Roses has accepted it's badly phrased, and you've said it may indicative of unconscious bias, not really seeing what you are trying to argue.
Not really sure myself :) : I think I object to people taking something that might mean something or other as actually meaning that thing.
I myself am full of racist, sexist and homophobic (and who knows what else) attitudes or biases but would quite like to know if these come from having read "The Magic Faraway Tree", or Biggles or whatever in my childhood.
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Not really sure myself :) : I think I object to people taking something that might mean something or other as actually meaning that thing.
I myself am full of racist, sexist and homophobic (and who knows what else) attitudes or biases but would quite like to know if these come from having read "The Magic Faraway Tree", or Biggles or whatever in my childhood.
But you don't object to your own position that it was obvious that Roses did not mean my reading. Do you see the problem?
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But you don't object to your own position that it was obvious that Roses did not mean my reading. Do you see the problem?
Having a conscious or unconscious attitude or bias does not mean that you support a particular view or action. For Roses, we already know her actual position from many previous posts.
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Having a conscious or unconscious attitude or bias does not mean that you support a particular view or action. For Roses, we already know her actual position from many previous posts.
Surely having a concious bias means exactly you support a view? As to an unconscious one, isn't it reasonable to point that out?
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
Oh, fuck Hitchens, the pretentious twat.
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Surely having a concious bias means exactly you support a view? As to an unconscious one, isn't it reasonable to point that out?
No, quite difficult to deal with a bias without knowing it is present.
It is reasonable to point out an unconscious bias if it helps in dealing with a relevant issue, without starting a distracting, diversionary, argument.
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No, quite difficult to deal with a bias without knowing it is present.
It is reasonable to point out an unconscious bias if it helps in dealing with a relevant issue, without starting a distracting, diversionary, argument.
Trouble is, an unconscious bias is difficult to impossible to prove or disprove, and is thus used by people with a political agenda to damn their opponents - see Israel's defenders' ad bloody nauseam accusations of subconscious antisemitism, when they run out of real arguments, which is often.
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Trouble is, an unconscious bias is difficult to impossible to prove or disprove, and is thus used by people with a political agenda to damn their opponents - see Israel's defenders' ad bloody nauseam accusations of subconscious antisemitism, when they run out of real arguments, which is often.
That's true. All you can validly do is suggest it to the person concerned, allowing them to consider it for themselves in their own time.
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No, quite difficult to deal with a bias without knowing it is present.
It is reasonable to point out an unconscious bias if it helps in dealing with a relevant issue, without starting a distracting, diversionary, argument.
So what do you think I did wrong?
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Trouble is, an unconscious bias is difficult to impossible to prove or disprove, and is thus used by people with a political agenda to damn their opponents - see Israel's defenders' ad bloody nauseam accusations of subconscious antisemitism, when they run out of real arguments, which is often.
So no one who cannot prove a bias should ever suggest it?
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Oh, fuck Hitchens, the pretentious twat.
so no argument then.
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So what do you think I did wrong?
Roses clearly stated she did not support any kind of homophobia and apologised for her poor wording - but you kept pursuing it as if it was the main topic? My suggestion anyway.
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Roses clearly stated she did not support any kind of homophobia and apologised for her poor wording - but you kept pursuing it as if it was the main topic? My suggestion anyway.
Which she wouldn't have done if I had not challenged it.
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Why do you think you worded it that way?
Sometimes you should just let it go.
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When NS gets a bee in his bonnet he goes on and on about even when he has been corrected!!! >:(
I AM NOT HOMOPHOBIC.
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When NS gets a bee in his bonnet he goes on and on about even when he has been corrected!!! >:(
He certainly does!
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I have said all I wish to say on this topic.
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So, getting back to Enid...
In her last few years, in the late 60s, she suffered increasingly from Alzheimers. According to a drama-doc about her that i saw a few years ago, on one occasion she got up in the middle of the night and wandered off in her nightdress. A passing lorry driver saw her, and stopped and persuaded her to get into the cab, with the intention of dropping her off at the nearest police station. As they drove along, he asked her her name. "Enid Blyton", she replied. The lorry driver laughed and said "and I'm the king of Siam!".
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Hi everyone,
A nice article about Enid Blyton.....written by a friend's daughter btw.
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20220809-enid-blyton-the-british-author-loved-in-india
It is very true that we were very much influenced by Enid Blyton and the magic she created with her characters and description of the small town life styles and places. I was addicted to Enid Blyton.
It is a different matter that when I actually met some British people and worked with them in later years, I was shocked at the deeply political and divisive mind set of the people I worked with. Most people I knew were all the time complaining and scheming against the bosses and against everyone else in the company. Never a good word about anyone....though always very polite externally! :(
Anyway, had a pleasant childhood thanks in part to Enid Blyton.
Cheers.
Sriram
Removing both my bonnet and its bee, Sriram, I'd like to say the article is fascinating and very well written.
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I never really liked Enid Blyton as a kid - only read a few and somehow even as a kid in the early 70s they seemed really dated to me. I'd always assumed they were largely written in the 20s and 30s, so I has rather surprised to see that most were post-war.
There were other authors and book series that I enjoyed far more, including some written earlier that didn't seem as dated. For example.
The Swallows and Amazon books
Narnia books
Br-er Rabbit - not the Blyton versions I think
Bill Badger books
The Adventure series - about two brothers who captured animals for zoos
Tolkien
My wife loves Blyton books - e.g. Famous Five, Mallory Towers and tried to get our kids to read them. Needless to say they didn't take to them at all.
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Why 'Needless to say'?
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Why 'Needless to say'?
It's a turn of phrase NS.
But speaks to a general view that gen Z kids (mine were born between 98 and 07) can't see the attraction in Blyton's books. My kids certainly bear out that view.
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It's a turn of phrase NS.
But speaks to a general view that gen Z kids (mine were born between 98 and 07) can't see the attraction in Blyton's books. My kids certainly bear out that view.
Anmazingly enough, I knew it was a figure of speech, but since you hadn't put forward your opinion on gen Z kids, it made no sense in the context. Let's assume that your anecdotal evidence is correct, why do you think that that doesn't seem to apply in India, as per the article in the OP?
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Anmazingly enough, I knew it was a figure of speech, but since you hadn't put forward your opinion on gen Z kids, it made no sense in the context. Let's assume that your anecdotal evidence is correct, why do you think that that doesn't seem to apply in India, as per the article in the OP?
We are three pages into the discussion which has moved on from a narrow discussion of the popularity or otherwise of Blyton in India to a more general discussion of Blyton as a person and whether individual posters thought her books had and continue to have merit (beyond your bizarre derail attach on Roses).
So my comment is absolutely bang on topic.
My error not to indicate the ages of my kids, but you could probably have worked that out from my indicating that I was a kid in the early 70s.
So back into your box NS, and perhaps others might like to comment on whether their kids from the 90s onwards enjoy her books.
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We are three pages into the discussion which has moved on from a narrow discussion of the popularity or otherwise of Blyton in India to a more general discussion of Blyton as a person and whether individual posters thought her books had and continue to have merit (beyond your bizarre derail attach on Roses).
So my comment is absolutely bang on topic.
My error not to indicate the ages of my kids, but you could probably have worked that out from my indicating that I was a kid in the early 70s.
So back into your box NS, and perhaps others might like to comment on whether their kids from the 90s onwards enjoy her books.
I didn't say your post wasn't on topic, just the lack of coherence in your post. And then when I helped you to make that clear, I connected to the OP. You need not to get fefensive when you post something that isn't clear. We all do that.
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I didn't say your post wasn't on topic, just the lack of coherence in your post. And then when I helped you to make that clear, I connected to the OP. You need not to get fefensive when you post something that isn't clear. We all do that.
Well I thought my post was perfectly clear, beyond not specifying the ages of my kids - but as I said you can likely work that out near enough from my comment about being a kids in the early 70s.
But you do like to nit-pick don't you NS, implying meaning when none is intended (as indicated already with Roses) and lack of clarity when there is clarity (my post, which was perfectly clear in my opinion). So I'll leave it to others, who do not have this tendency to not pick, to indicate whether they thought my post was clear or not.
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Well I thought my post was perfectly clear, beyond not specifying the ages of my kids - but as I said you can likely work that out near enough from my comment about being a kids in the early 70s.
But you do like to nit-pick don't you NS, implying meaning when none is intended (as indicated already with Roses) and lack of clarity when there is clarity (my post, which was perfectly clear in my opinion). So I'll leave it to others, who do not have this tendency to not pick, to indicate whether they thought my post was clear or not.
You hadn't made clear that you thought children of a particular age would not appreciate Blyton. I asked you to clarify your use of the phrase 'needlees to say' because without you providing any belief that didn't make sense. I'm happy to point that out. That you think you were clear isn't really of much use.
You need to chill out a bit when it comes to stuff like this. We can all make assumptions about our posts being clear. Getting upset when asked for a clarification is just a bit odd.
Anyway, I would be interested if anyone has opinions on the difference between Prof D's idea about kids of his kids ages in the UK and India as covered in the OP.
I also wonder if anyone knows what sort of success Blyton ever had in the US. My instinct would be that the books for older children wouldn't have been as successful buy that the Noddy stuff, and The Magic Faraway Tree might have.
Anyway, I'm off for lashings and lashings of ginger beer.
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Anyway, I would be interested if anyone has opinions on the difference between Prof D's idea about kids of his kids ages in the UK and India as covered in the OP.
Actually the article tells us very little about whether present day kids in India like Blyton more than those in the UK. Most of the article is a bit of a nostalgia-fest - older people describing their love for Blyton's books and projecting their love of Blyton onto kids. And it include pretty major dopol of salt stuff, such as the managing director of the company worldwide rights to distribute Blyton's books, including in India, telling us how much children love them. Hmm, like he's netural.
Also there is a bold claim that Blyton is the 3rd best selling children's author in India (with no indication what this claim is based on). Yet a quick glance at amazon.in children and young person best sellers reveals that not a single Blyton book is in the top 100.
https://www.amazon.in/gp/bestsellers/books/1318073031/ref=zg_bs_nav_books_1
Kind of hard to see how an author that doesn't have a single book in the top 100 best-sellers can be the 3rd best selling author overall.
So nice article, full of nostalgic whismy, but doesn't help us to know whether today's young children in India are big fans of Blyton.
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She was undoubtedly racist, sexist and snobbish, in a mild sort of way, but no more so than was normal in her day.
Yes and often her use of the English language was appalling. I never got into Blyton when I was a child.
I didn't know she had many affairs but she did kick out her first husband, father of her children, for another man with whom she was happy.
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Anyway, I'm off for lashings and lashings of ginger beer.
Apparently this never appeared in anything written by Blyton. It comes from the TV comedy spoof "Five go mad in Dorset".
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Apparently this never appeared in anything written by Blyton. It comes from the TV comedy spoof "Five go mad in Dorset".
Yep, I remember watching it on the launch night of Channel 4. It's a very clever piece of parody in that it feels believable as a phrase.
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Yes and often her use of the English language was appalling. I never got into Blyton when I was a child.
Yup - I agree. I always found her writing really stilted, which is why I was surprised to realise that she was writing in the 50s and even into the 60s. I'd always assumed she was writing much earlier than that as her writing seemed so dated and stalked to me, when I read some of her books as a child in the 70s.
To me the Swallows and Amazon books, although written perhaps 20 years earlier seemed much more up to date in their style of prose, even if some of the topic material is 'of a time'!
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Yup - I agree. I always found her writing really stalked...
"Stalked"? I've never come across this word in this sense before, and neither has google! Is it an auto-correct mistake for "stilted"?
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"Stalked"? I've never come across this word in this sense before, and neither has google! Is it an auto-correct mistake for "stilted"?
Didn't really get "stalked" but can go along with "stilted" or even "stinked" .. but although we can say that as adults looking back, or even notice style/flow from 9 or so up, not sure that it matters to infants and early juniors.
I don't like JK Rowling's style - or plots for that matter - but the Harry Potter books worked wonders for my younger son ... He finished the reading scheme before he was 4 .. but by 6 had no interest in books until finding HP.
Typing this on a android tablet - really difficult to type without having to go back and correct silly errors.
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"Stalked"? I've never come across this word in this sense before, and neither has google! Is it an auto-correct mistake for "stilted"?
Oops - yes, an autocorrect, should have been stilted.
That said, perhaps stalked is appropriate, as when I was a kid Blyton books seemed to be everywhere - you couldn't look at a shelf of the school or public library or children's section in a bookshop without a Blyton book leering down at you!!
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Didn't really get "stalked" but can go along with "stilted" or even "stinked" .. but although we can say that as adults looking back, or even notice style/flow from 9 or so up, not sure that it matters to infants and early juniors.
I don't like JK Rowling's style - or plots for that matter - but the Harry Potter books worked wonders for my younger son ... He finished the reading scheme before he was 4 .. but by 6 had no interest in books until finding HP.
I agree that we may see things very differently when re-reading (or even reading for the first time) children's books as an adult compared to reading them as a child.
But my dislike of Blyton isn't an adult thing - no I really never took to them as a child as I found them pretty boring and actually weirdly difficult to read, because of the writing style - which is why I said I found them stilted (not stalked!!) and was surprised to learn that they were perhaps just 15-20 years old when I was reading them in the 70s.
There are other books I really enjoyed as a kid (e.g. the Narnia books) that I have re-read as an adult and have seen all sorts of things that I never noticed as a child. Some deliberate (the christian allegory), some a symptom of the time and place they were written (the assumed and casual racism and sexism).
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I agree that we may see things very differently when re-reading (or even reading for the first time) children's books as an adult compared to reading them as a child.
But my dislike of Blyton isn't an adult thing - no I really never took to them as a child as I found them pretty boring and actually weirdly difficult to read, because of the writing style - which is why I said I found them stilted (not stalked!!) and was surprised to learn that they were perhaps just 15-20 years old when I was reading them in the 70s.
There are other books I really enjoyed as a kid (e.g. the Narnia books) that I have re-read as an adult and have seen all sorts of things that I never noticed as a child. Some deliberate (the christian allegory), some a symptom of the time and place they were written (the assumed and casual racism and sexism).
Well the CS Lewis books are good stories, well-written, I also enjoyed them at an early age despite being well aware of the Christian base, sexism and some racism (as an Indian boy). Similarly. was fine with Tolkien.. despite seeing obvious racial stereotyping in his work.
And, disdaining all her other books. I did enjoy the Faraway Tree series, though again her basic stereotyping was apparent ... In fact in some ways the fantasy and silly logic set me up for SF and other fantasy.
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Well the CS Lewis books are good stories, well-written, I also enjoyed them at an early age despite being well aware of the Christian base, sexism and some racism (as an Indian boy). Similarly. was fine with Tolkien.. despite seeing obvious racial stereotyping in his work.
I think there is a difference between the racism and sexism in Lewis and Tolkien and the christianity in the former. Sexism and racism was pretty well baked into society of the 50s (and earlier) so it is unlikely that writers would have done anything other that (possible thoughtlessly) written that into their books. The christianity in the Narnia books is different - this was clearly a deliberate element of Lewis' approach - not thoughtless, but thoughtful and actually quite cleverly done - clunky and obvious when reading as an adult, but far less apparent (and therefore more insidious) as a child.
There is another thing about the Naria books in my opinion, and here there are analogies (again in my opinion) with J K Rowling. In both cases there is a kind of arc of enjoyment. The first books written are a little timid and simplistic (albeit fun and fine), but about 3 to 4 books in the series gets into their stride (my favourite book from Narian are Dawn Treader and Silver Chair, from Harry Potter it is Prisoner of Azkhaban). But thereafter things get more convoluted and a case of diminishing returns. The final Harry Potter books just don't cut it as far as I'm concerned, too long, too many things suddenly thrown in that didn't appear previously and ultimately a bit boring. Likewise with Narnia - the last two written (although not chronologically) - Magician's Nephew and Last Battle are pretty unreadable - too much allegory, trying to hard to shoehorn Genesis and Revelation into what should be fundamentally an enjoyable fantasy yarn.
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Lewis's scheme was obvious from the first book .. when he gets to the pretend first book (The Magicians Nephew) to make it all add up - he can't help but get lost in a multiverse - where most attempts at mythology and philosophy usually end.
A seven year old could see his sneaky plan to tie the tale to the Christian mindset: Certainly myself and my kids!
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Lewis's scheme was obvious from the first book .. when he gets to the pretend first book (The Magicians Nephew) to make it all add up - he can't help but get lost in a multiverse - where most attempts at mythology and philosophy usually end.
A seven year old could see his sneaky plan to tie the tale to the Christian mindset: Certainly myself and my kids!
The Magician's Nephew is my favourite of the Narnia books. I would say it breaks out of the restrictions because of the problems you mention. The Last Battle is a desperate attempt to corral them back.
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Enid Blyton passed me by, which for a child born in 1952 surprises me - however, my late uncle insisted on inflicting 'Just William' stories on me.
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Enid Blyton passed me by, which for a child born in 1952 surprises me - however, my late uncle insisted on inflicting 'Just William' stories on me.
For some reason never appealed to me, though later I had a school friend who I thought must been that sort of character .. whatever it might have been .. smug?
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I quite liked the Jennings and Darbishire books, also Alfred Hitchcock and the Three Investigators, and Anne of Green Gables
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Beat me to it NS. I was just going to post about Anthony Buckeridge's school series.
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I quite liked the Jennings and Darbishire books
Ah yes - enjoyed them too.
I also loved the 'Adventure' series books by Willard Price, involving brothers who went round the world collecting animals for zoos - probably rather less unacceptable topic these days!
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Yes and often her use of the English language was appalling. I never got into Blyton when I was a child.
The Famous Five taught both me and my brother to read and not be afraid of books that seemed quite big and grown up (to a five year old). I wouldn't knock anything that gets children to read books.
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The Famous Five taught both me and my brother to read and not be afraid of books that seemed quite big and grown up (to a five year old). I wouldn't knock anything that gets children to read books.
And her sheer spread of books worked with many different children.
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Although I had acquired the appropriate technique at an earlier age, I did not start reading until I was about eight. I was hit by a succession of childhood illnesses and was off school for several weeks. My father began reading Tom Sawyer to me and part way though the book I took it from him and started to read it for myself.
At first, I was reading aloud but then was told to be quiet and I found that reading silently enabled me to progress through the book much more quickly. I moved onto Huckleberry Finn but did not find it as enjoyable as Tom Sawyer. I then read Pinocchio (I hadn't seen the film) and loved it.
Blyton books followed (Famous 5 and Secret 7) but my great literary discovery was Arthur Ransome, I did not read them in sequence, my first was Pigeon Post with Dick and Dorothea becoming my favourite characters.
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Didn't like Ransome, but the first book I ever gave up on was Swiss Family Robinson. I would have thrown it across the room had I not been stupefied with boredom.
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Ah yes - enjoyed them too.
I also loved the 'Adventure' series books by Willard Price, involving brothers who went round the world collecting animals for zoos - probably rather less unacceptable topic these days!
Yes I enjoyed those books too - except Volcano Adventure was boring. I remember the first one I read was Cannibal Adventure when I was 7. I learnt a lot of interesting facts about animals and the history of the countries Hal and Roger Price visited to collect animals.
And also agree about Jennings - really funny and enjoyable. And the Narnia books. All read about that same period of age 7-10.
I read Enid Blyton too around that age and enjoyed it. But am also thankful to my form tutor for making me try Antonia Forest's series of books about the Marlow sisters set in a girls' school, as she disapproved of seeing me with Enid Blyton's Malory Towers books aged 10. She also told my mother I should be reading better books than Enid Blyton. WHSmith was selling classic paperbacks for 50p each so I ended up with my mother bringing home a book a day after work - so if it wasn't for reading so many Enid Blyton books at school, I might never have been introduced to and enjoyed reading White Fang and Call of The Wild and the Prince & the Pauper (and other Mark Twain classics) and Heidi, Aesop's Fables. I found Treasure Island boring though and couldn't finish it.
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It's funny, as I read through comments here, books people mention remind me of others. I read quite a few though by no means all of Malcolm Saville's Lone Pine series. I found tge detail of places and atmosphere in England fascinating. I was deeply intrigued by the Cinque Ports.
Similarly Alderley Edge because of Alan Garner's Weirdstone of Brinsingamen/Moon of Gomrath pair which became a trilogy of sorts many many years later with Boneland, which I read but could not resurrect the fascination with. Amongst Garner's other books was the stonkingly weird and quite disturbing The Owl Service which became a weird TV series. At the time, I was too young to get the story being so involved with developing sexualities of the characters. Ot's also a fabulous gateway into Welsh myths.
Then, of course, there was Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea books which has a brilliant concentration on the idea of balance which has hints of ecological concerns and Eastern thought.