Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on September 06, 2023, 04:26:08 PM
-
Well?
-
I can't speak for atheists but on a personal note, the last time that I performed that song was in school, over 50 years ago!
-
I take it you mean the UKish National Anthem. Don't sing it but that's because I am a republican.
-
I take it you mean the UKish National Anthem. Don't sing it but that's because I am a republican.
So would you sing it if you were a monarchist?
-
So would you sing it if you were a monarchist?
Don't know, never been one.
At the Commonwealth Games in 2014, I sang Jerusalem at the boxing because I felt sorry that the English fans didn't seem to know the words.
To be honest, I'm not sure I'd sing any national anthem in many circumstances, as I'm not very patriotic either.
-
Vlad,
Presumably the same things a-dragonists do whenever the opportunity to sing “Puff the Magic Dragon” arises.
You’ve fallen into the trap again of thinking the term “atheists” represents some sort of collective behaviour. It doesn’t.
-
As an atheist republican, and being rather shy and self conscious, I don't sing it but stand to show respect to what it is.
-
I treat the UK mational anthem with the contempt it deserves and just ignore it - have to say though that I can't remember coming across it recently.
-
Vlad,
Presumably the same things a-dragonists do whenever the opportunity to sing “Puff the Magic Dragon” arises.
Or indeed a multiversist when a chance to chant the theme from star wars.arises.
-
Or indeed a multiversist when a chance to chant the theme from star wars.arises.
That doesn't really work.
-
Well?
I sing it, usually. Not well, but I suspect that's not the point of the question. I sing it because the lyrics are, to a large extent, independent of the sentiment which is that, for all its faults, this is a great country and I'm glad that I was born here and not in any number of other significantly worse places. It's a celebration of the glorious, incongruous, self-contradictory mess that is the UK and its complicated history.
If I were asked, I'd say I think there could be a better anthem (the dirge-like tenor of the music is more problematic for me than the lyrics, but changing those would be an improvement), but the fact that it's not ideal doesn't mean that it has be disregarded. In fact, if anything, the fact that it isn't perfect sort of fits.
O.
-
In the days when cinemas played the National Anthem at the end of a performance I was one of those who rushed to get to the exit before people stood to attention. It's an old form of conditioning but dedicated to one person rather than a nation. I would prefer, if played at sporting events, for something less dreary.
-
I have sung it, not very often but I do not see an issue here.
Am I missing something.
I have said the lords prayer at a funeral as well.
-
I try not to.
But it really is an epic fail to have a national anthem where the first five words evoke a fundamental disagreement from at least a third of the people in that very country.
-
It's just a song. I
sing try to sing it.
-
I'm distraught that Vlad with one simple question has exposed the huge rifts in the Atheist Community Collective.
;)
-
I would prefer, if played at sporting events, for something less dreary.
Jerusalem would be much better.
I agree it is a dirge compared to the stirring anthems the French, USA and Russia (to name but three) have.
-
Jerusalem would be much better.
I agree it is a dirge compared to the stirring anthems the French, USA and Russia (to name but three) have.
I once suggested that we should replace our God Save the Queen (as was) with a Beatles song. There's a tune at the start of "All You Need is Love" that would make an excellent National Anthem.
-
Jerusalem would be much better.
I agree it is a dirge compared to the stirring anthems the French, USA and Russia (to name but three) have.
Though Jerusalem only really works as an English sporting anthem.
-
Though Jerusalem only really works as an English sporting anthem.
As well as being a text book case of Betteridge's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines).
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountain green?
NoAnd was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
NoAnd did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
NoAnd was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?
No.
And yes, there's a lot of mention of England there. Not much of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
-
How about a couple of minutes silence instead.
-
As well as being a text book case of Betteridge's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines).
NoNoNoNo.
And yes, there's a lot of mention of England there. Not much of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
It wouldn't work in a UK context, but I mentioned this in response to ekim's point about sporting events. And in most cases we'd therefore be dealing with the representative nations, not the UK. Let's not forget that Scotland/Wales already sing their own non-British national anthems at sporting events.
But Jerusalem is a great stirring sing, unless God save our ... dirge, dirge, dirge.
-
Though Jerusalem only really works as an English sporting anthem.
True - see above. But Scotland and Wales already have their own bespoke anthems.
-
True - see above. But Scotland and Wales already have their own bespoke anthems.
Jerusalem was used at the Commonwealth Games, so England have their own, and NI have Danny Boy then - though GSTK at football.
What do you suggest gets played at the Olympics in place of GSTK?
-
Vlad,
Presumably the same things a-dragonists do whenever the opportunity to sing “Puff the Magic Dragon” arises.
I hate to be the one who breaks this to you, Hillside....but “Puff the magic dragon” isn’t actually about Dragons.
-
Jerusalem was used at the Commonwealth Games, so England have their own, and NI have Danny Boy then - though GSTK at football.
Hmm - I think you know my views about the Commonwealth games and more of that below.
I was thinking more about singing the anthem before a match involving international sides - so the England football and rugby sides don't sing Jerusalem, although I was at the ashes and it was sung there.
What do you suggest gets played at the Olympics in place of GSTK?
I know this is a bit ducking the question, but I don't think the Olympics (nor the Commonwealth games) should be contested on the basis of countries as most (albeit not all) of the sports are individual. So Usain Bolt is fundamentally competing as Usain Bolt, not as 'Jamaica'. That would only really make sense if there was only one competitor representing each country, but that isn't the case.
So I'd do away with flags and anthems at the Olympics as I don't really understand why Andy Murray wins Wimbledon as Andy Murray (no national anthem played) so why doesn't he just win the Olympics as Andy Murray.
-
Hmm - I think you know my views about the Commonwealth games and more of that below.
I was thinking more about singing the anthem before a match involving international sides - so the England football and rugby sides don't sing Jerusalem, although I was at the ashes and it was sung there.
I know this is a bit ducking the question, but I don't think the Olympics (nor the Commonwealth games) should be contested on the basis of countries as most (albeit not all) of the sports are individual. So Usain Bolt is fundamentally competing as Usain Bolt, not as 'Jamaica'. That would only really make sense if there was only one competitor representing each country, but that isn't the case.
So I'd do away with flags and anthems at the Olympics as I don't really understand why Andy Murray wins Wimbledon as Andy Murray (no national anthem played) so why doesn't he just win the Olympics as Andy Murray.
You seem to be taking about the differences between team sports and individual sports? What do you do about team sports at the Olympics? And do you really think the Olympics os feasible for the vast majority of sports and atheletes without the backing of their nations?
All of this is essentially a side issue to the question in the OP, and the use of GSTK as the national anthem of the UK.
-
I hate to be the one who breaks this to you, Hillside....but “Puff the magic dragon” isn’t actually about Dragons.
Yes it is.
-
You seem to be taking about the differences between team sports and individual sports? What do you do about team sports at the Olympics? And do you really think the Olympics os feasible for the vast majority of sports and atheletes without the backing of their nations?
Well I also think that the Olympics should only include sports where it is demonstrably the case that winning would represent the or a pinnacle of the career in comparison with other events.
So without doubt winning 100m Olympic gold has to be the best a sprinter could ever hope for. But in many (but perhaps not all) team sports this isn't the case. Do you really think that Harry Kane would consider winning a football Olympic gold as equivalent to the world cup - of course not. So sports that don't meet that criterion should not (in my opinion) be in the Olympics in the first place. So that would slim down the whole event which I see as a good thing anyhow, but would also disproportionately remove team sports I would imagine.
-
Yes it is.
I’m sorry Jeremy but it’s the inclusion of “little Jackie paper” that swings it for me.
-
I’m sorry Jeremy but it’s the inclusion of “little Jackie paper” that swings it for me.
Whereas it's the explicit, continuous statements by the person that wrote it that swings it for me.
Wikipedia article for Puff the Magic Dragon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puff,_the_Magic_Dragon)
O.
-
Vlad,
I hate to be the one who breaks this to you, Hillside....but “Puff the magic dragon” isn’t actually about Dragons.
1. Yes it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9jfM7zV__g
2. Actually it’s more “about” the loss of innocence. Have a look at the lyrics.
3. I hate to be the one who breaks this to you Vlad....but the National Anthem isn’t actually “about” god either.
-
Whereas it's the explicit, continuous statements by the person that wrote it that swings it for me.
Wikipedia article for Puff the Magic Dragon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puff,_the_Magic_Dragon)
O.
I like the quote from the article "sloppy research".
Could that refer to one commenter here I wonder?
-
So would you sing it if you were a monarchist?
IIRC, Brian Moore said he was a Republican and he sang GSTK as loud as he could to annoy the French.
-
Putting 'God' to one side - I don't want to 'save' the monarch: I want to see the monarchy gone, at the earliest available opportunity.
-
I’m sorry Jeremy but it’s the inclusion of “little Jackie paper” that swings it for me.
From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puff,_the_Magic_Dragon)
The authors of the song have repeatedly rejected this interpretation [that it is about drugs] and have strongly and consistently denied that they intended any references to drug use. Both Lipton and Yarrow have stated, "'Puff, the Magic Dragon' is not about drugs.
-
Putting 'God' to one side - I don't want to 'save' the monarch: I want to see the monarchy gone, at the earliest available opportunity.
Are there any other national anthems which involve, effectively, a pledge of allegiance to the head of state, rather than bigging up/pledging allegiance to the country and its people.
Genuine question.
-
Are there any other national anthems which involve, effectively, a pledge of allegiance to the head of state, rather than bigging up/pledging allegiance to the country and its people.
Genuine question.
On a very quick skim of the firsr part of the list, Brunei, Japan, and Jordan
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_anthems
-
Well?
I'm English, and only sing the Welsh one.
(Unlike John Redwood)
-
IIRC, Brian Moore said he was a Republican and he sang GSTK as loud as he could to annoy the French.
I suppose the lyrics could be changed to,
"Pay tax you greedy King...",
but I doubt many people would accept that.
-
I don't know what atheists would do, but I as a republican would stand still (I wouldn't remain seated - that would be childish petulance) and remain silent.
-
I'd just completely ignore it - although I don't think I've come across it being played in public in recent years, and I don't attend or generally even watch sports events where anthems are commonly played. I suppose I'm being deprived of opportunities to demonstrably ignore it. ;)
In any event as far as I know, so my grandson tells me, when Scotland are playing football or rugby the UK national anthem isn't the anthem that is used to represent Scotland.
-
Are there any other national anthems which involve, effectively, a pledge of allegiance to the head of state, rather than bigging up/pledging allegiance to the country and its people.
Genuine question.
The British national anthem doesn't include a pledge of allegiance to either the King or the state.
-
If we scrapped 'God Save Our Gracious Quing', what should replace it? My vote goes to 'I Vow To Thee, My Country'.
-
If we scrapped 'God Save Our Gracious Quing', what should replace it? My vote goes to 'I Vow To Thee, My Country'.
Well it's a better tune but it does include a pledge of allegiance.
-
Why have one with words?
What about a quick version of Stewart Lee’s “Ricky Gervais saying the unsayable”?
-
If we scrapped 'God Save Our Gracious Quing', what should replace it? My vote goes to 'I Vow To Thee, My Country'.
Surely the Archers
https://youtu.be/i9nnnM-__JQ?si=eeIxh22nLDEKukdM
-
Why have one with words?
What about a quick version of Stewart Lee’s “Ricky Gervais saying the unsayable”?
I don't know that one, how does it go?
-
If we scrapped 'God Save Our Gracious Quing', what should replace it? My vote goes to 'I Vow To Thee, My Country'.
Serious suggestion - Song for a Festival Music composed by George Dyson, words by Cecil Day Lewis.
Written, I believe, for the Festival of Britain in 1951.
Brave isle of meadow cliff and cloud
.
-
Just stand quietly, presumably. That's what I do, as a republican. I also decline to sing 'Onward Christian Soldiers', as a Christian(ish) pacifist(ish).
-
Just stand quietly, presumably. That's what I do, as a republican. I also decline to sing 'Onward Christian Soldiers', as a Christian(ish) pacifist(ish).
Indeed - but how stupid is it to have a national anthem that probable one third of the population disbelieve or disagree with on the basis of the five five words alone. Probable more as the roughly one-third of the population who don't believe in god and the roughly one-third who want to get rid of the monarchy aren't entirely overlapping!
Dumb in the extreme.