Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on December 15, 2023, 03:24:09 PM
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Interesting that there is an explicit acceptance that some people guilty of some things may have their convictions overturned but that it is on balance better than other likely outcomes.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67719051
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What I don't understand about the Horizon scandal is why it never occurred to any of the high-ups in the Post Office that the sudden flood of apparent fraud cases might indicate a problem with the computer system.
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What I don't understand about the Horizon scandal is why it never occurred to any of the high0ups in the Post Office that the sudden flood of apparent fraud cases might indicate a problem with the computer system.
And ignored people saying that it was the problem.
I suspect some group think, then fear that if they were wrong what that might mean.
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Mr Bates versus the Post Office
I have binge-watched this excellent ITV feature.
Two thoughts occur to me.
One - why have not senior executives in the Post Office been charged with Perverting the Course of Justice.
Two - how is it that the Post Office is allowed to have the right to pursue prosecution independently, without the police or any other public authority being involved?
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What I don't understand about the Horizon scandal is why it never occurred to any of the high-ups in the Post Office that the sudden flood of apparent fraud cases might indicate a problem with the computer system.
There's two possible explanations for a sudden increase in fraud cases following the commissioning of new software:
1. there's a problem with the new software
2. it's easier to detect fraud with the new software.
If you were part of the management team that was responsible for installing the new software at great expense, which explanation would you prefer to believe?
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Mr Bates versus the Post Office
I have binge-watched this excellent ITV feature.
Two thoughts occur to me.
One - why have not senior executives in the Post Office been charged with Perverting the Course of Justice.
Two - how is it that the Post Office is allowed to have the right to pursue prosecution independently, without the police or any other public authority being involved?
Some details on the position of the Post Office here
https://insights.doughtystreet.co.uk/post/102gtzh/private-prosecutions-after-the-post-office-debacle
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Watching 'Mr Bates V The Post office' on ITV1. I've long been aware of the injustices associated with the Post Masters/Mistresses of course, but this dramatic interpretation crystallizes some of the very disquieting and upsetting themes relating to this still ongoing saga. For me it's difficult to watch without feelings of outrage and frustration but I find it absolutely riveting.
Entirely agree. But I was amazed to realise that the egregious Paula Vennells is an Anglican priest. Particularly since she has the emotional intelligence and insight of a half-brick.
C.B.E.? I hope for not much longer.
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Entirely agree. But I was amazed to realise that the egregious Paula Vennells is an Anglican priest. Particularly since she has the emotional intelligence and insight of a half-brick.
C.B.E.? I hope for not much longer.
Petition here to remove
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe
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Petition here to remove
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe
Cheers! My wife and I have now signed.
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Petition here to remove
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe
That vile woman deserves whatever she gets, but she has lost her various directorships and her role as a priest, and, since I haven't been personally affected, it would seem to be merely vindictive for me to sign.
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Just watched part 1 of 'Mr Bates v. the Post Office', and will watch parts 2 and 3 later. I was amazed to discover that the Post Office has the right to bring its own prosecutions without the police being involved - at least, it did then; maybe that's changed now: if not, it certainly needs to be ended.
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That vile woman deserves whatever she gets, but she has lost her various directorships and her role as a priest, and, since I haven't been personally affected, it would seem to be merely vindictive for me to sign.
Alan Bates, one of the main heroes of this disgusting, sadistic affair refused his O.B.E because PV. had been awarded a C.B E. Let those deserving of honours step forward to collect them, and let hypocritical bastards be deprived of them.
And in the case of P.V., a few years in jail might give her pause to reflect on the full extent of the suffering for which she is to a great extent responsible. When the pressure is on, this will no doubt cause her to bleat enough to flush out the other faceless (and overpaid) monsters who ran the show from their foxholes.
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That vile woman deserves whatever she gets, but she has lost her various directorships and her role as a priest, and, since I haven't been personally affected, it would seem to be merely vindictive for me to sign.
Then given she was in part given it for her services to the Post Office, it seems to me you are happy to not support the state honouring someone for actions that led to suicides. And yes, it's a minimal thing but one you are choosing not to do.
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Then given she was in part given it for her services to the Post Office, it seems to me you are happy to not support the state honouring someone for actions that led to suicides. And yes, it's a minimal thing but one you are choosing not to do.
Devil's advocate argument here...
She assumed the position of Post Office CEO after most of the Horizon cases had already occurred so you can't blame her for the fiasco that was Horizon. She was in charge during all the covering up and obstruction and so on but I wonder how much she actually knew. You could argue that she should have made it her business to know, especially as she had to answer difficult questions in Parliament and in court (oh, actually not the latter according to ITV), but who of us has not let things slide when it might make our lives a bit more difficult to do the right thing. And, before you say "not me" just remember that, according to the ITV drama, this is exactly how a number of sub postmasters got criminal records. It's entirely possible that Paula Vennells was just grossly incompetent and unfit to hold the post of CEO of any kind of organisation.
Anyway, I was so angry after watching the first two episodes of the ITV series that I had to stop. I have since calmed down and watched the second two episodes but I'm still pretty upset because, as a person who worked in the industry of bespoke computer systems for ten years, including the period when Horizon must have been written, I know that the claim "it couldn't be the computer system" is utterly false. I would laugh in your face if you made the claim of any such system.
Furthermore, I know, if the Post Office had accepted that it could be the computer system, it would have been fixed quicker and fewer lives would have been destroyed. As an example, consider one of the early scenes where Jo Hamilton had a deficit of £2,000 and rang the "help" line to try to resolve it. Had they taken the line "oh it's a bug in Horizon" they would have logged a defect, the discrepancy would be accounted for and the software would have been fixed. Jo would not have had to answer criminal charges and neither would a lot of sub postmasters who fell foul of the same bug.
It was all so fucking unprofessional, even before we get to the cover ups and the obstruction. People need to go to prison for this. And yes, Paula Vennells needs to be stripped of her CBE which she gained under false pretences.
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Then given she was in part given it for her services to the Post Office, it seems to me you are happy to not support the state honouring someone for actions that led to suicides. And yes, it's a minimal thing but one you are choosing not to do.
I'm not happy about any of this affair, except the vindication of the victims, but whether Vennels loses her CBE or not is of no importance whatsoever.
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I'm not happy about any of this affair, except the vindication of the victims, but whether Vennels loses her CBE or not is of no importance whatsoever.
It is important because it's a message that says "good job running the Post Office" during a period in which it literally drove people to suicide. It's saying "good job running an organisation that kills people".
Also, if anybody deserves an honour out of this fiasco, it is Alan Bates, and he clearly won't accept it as long as Ms Vennells has hers.
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Police investigating that the recovery of money for the 'frauds' was in itself fraud.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67899189
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Lib Dems calling out their own incompetence
https://libdemwatch.org/f/lib-dem-ministers-not-aware-of-multiple-post-office-failings
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Lib Dems calling out their own incompetence
https://libdemwatch.org/f/lib-dem-ministers-not-aware-of-multiple-post-office-failings
Hardly "calling out their own" - it's an anti-Lib Dem site.
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Hardly "calling out their own" - it's an anti-Lib Dem site.
Yes, I know but the Lib Dems saying that they knew nothing is calling out their own incompetence.
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That vile woman deserves whatever she gets, but she has lost her various directorships and her role as a priest, and, since I haven't been personally affected, it would seem to be merely vindictive for me to sign.
If you feel that to sign the petition would imply vindictiveness on your part then I agree with you completely. You shouldn't sign. As both my wife and I think that it is completely unjustified to give an award(CBE) to a person who was in overall control of the fiasco which affected and is still affecting so many people's lives, we have no feelings of revenge or vindictiveness. Consequentially, even though we accept that it is not that important within the limits of this whole sad affair, we were happy to sign the petition.
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If you feel that to sign the petition would imply vindictiveness on your part then I agree with you completely. You shouldn't sign. As both my wife and I think that it is completely unjustified to give an award(CBE) to a person who was in overall control of the fiasco which affected and is still affecting so many people's lives, we have no feelings of revenge or vindictiveness. Consequentially, even though we accept that it is not that important within the limits of this whole sad affair, we were happy to sign the petition.
It may be more important than you think. Apart from giving the British people some sense that there is still justice somewhere in the world, the woman herself may start to name names of various morally bankrupt jerks who were also running the show, in her attempts to justify herself.
Alan Bates himself knows more about her part in the scandal than any of us, and if he refuses his OBE until PV's award is withdrawn, that's good enough for me.
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Did anyone see the documentary with interviews of the real life victims, which was screened after the drama series? I had listened to several radio programmes on the matter over the last 2 years, and these were harrowing enough, but I thought that justice was finally prevailing.
Then I watched this TV drama, with its further catalogue of enormities, and realised things were worse than I thought. Then in the final credits I noticed the actual figures of wronged innocents totalling over a thousand, of attempted and actual suicides, and at least four wrongful imprisonments. My jaw just dropped to the floor.
Then I watched the interviews with actual innocent victims. I was particularly moved ( and outraged) by the treatment of the postmaster from Anglesey, Noel Thomas, and the Indian lady, Saman Kaur. The latter had the additional horror of dealing with racist attacks and made two suicide attempts, and was plunged into so deep a depression they tried the old ECT treatment on her 14 times. The result of this is that the whole memory of her early life has been wiped out and she has been taking anti-depressant medication ever since.
But we must assume the sainted Paula Vennells has suffered enough must we?
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But we must assume the sainted Paula Vennells has suffered enough must we?
I don't think that anyone has suggested that. I think she should certainly lose her CBE (which is not inconsistent with my declination to sign a petition to that effect), and perhaps serve time in jail, and thereafter be barred for life from holding directorships or CEOs.
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The Observer's view.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/the-observer-view-on-the-post-office-scandal-corporate-and-legal-powers-used-to-abuse-must-be-checked/ar-AA1myNjc
After last week’s ITV dramatisation of the scandal – which has played an important role in raising public awareness – the Metropolitan police said they had commenced a criminal fraud investigation in relation to the Post Office; they were already investigating two Fujitsu experts in relation to perjury and perverting the course of justice.
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I see Sunak is trying the 'it's really dreadful that someine allowed this to happen' defence ignoring that the Tories have been in govt for 13 years. Fucking disgraceful.
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Government considering taking away PO's power of independent prosecution. Quite right too.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/07/rishi-sunak-plan-exonerate-post-office-horizon-scandal-victims
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Government considering taking away PO's power of independent prosecution. Quite right too.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/07/rishi-sunak-plan-exonerate-post-office-horizon-scandal-victims
The more important part of that story is that they are looking into ways to exonerate all the victims. It's my opinion that any prosecution of a sub postmaster during the period is unsafe because of the software issues, but individuals will have problems clearing their names because they've got to find positive evidence to overturn their convictions.
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Watching the various panicked statements from the govt on this, the questions that remains is would you have been doing this except for the TV programme and the answer is no.
It is a story of extreme and serial incompetence from govts but one where time passing and information being clear, the incompetence grew.
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Apparently Vince Cable thinks Ed Davey is beinh made a scapegoat for the scandal because it's an election year, and the issue has become politicised. Imagine the competence of the leader of a political party when they were a minister in the govt becoming politicised! I am beyond shocked, I am shaken, and indeed stirred.
Bunch of useless narcissists
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I found this video yesterday.
The first part in which the journalist explains the background is extremely interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpkSIGd7Z68
Some highlights:
- the Post Office Investigative Branch is the oldest policing organisation in the World
- sub-postmasters are not employees of the Post Office, they work under contract.
- ICL (later Fujitsu) won the contract for Horizon despite coming last in the bidding process in eight of eleven categories because they put forward an innovative contract structure in which they took most of the risk.
- The Post Office had to pay Fujitsu to investigate defects
- Fujitsu had to pay the Post Office whenever the service level agreement was breached
The last two points are important because it means neither Fujitsu nor the Post Office had any incentive to report problems to the other party.
The second part was taken up by the personal stories of two sub-postmasters. It was very hard to listen to this bit.
Then we have Q&A.
As a person who was in the bespoke software industry for many years, I found the answer to the first question very illuminating.
Fujitsu built a prototype system and demo'd it to the PO who then said it was great so roll it out. Now, the word "prototype" is used differently in the software industry as compared to manufacturing. A prototype is usually hacked together quickly to give the customer an idea of what the final system will look like. There is usually an understanding (amongst the programmers, at least) that the prototype will be thrown away and not used in production. It would be better to call a software prototype a mock up. That would be a more honest appraisal of what you have got.
Anyway, in this case the prototype was not thrown away and instead, they rolled it into production and built on it. Nick Wallis at 1:20:13 is quite wrong to say that normally everybody throws the prototype away. What Fujitsu did happens quite often. It's a recognised risk of developing prototypes. It's really hard to demonstrate a prototype to the customer and then, when they say "great, let's roll it out", tell them it'll be another six months.
Horizon was never fit for purpose and given the devastation it caused, multiple people from Fujitsu and the PO need to go to prison.
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I agree with jeremyp on the use of prototypes. My experience in that situation is that the supplier will normally do fixes/updates for an agreed period for free because they are getting paid for something that isn't.comokete, and getting the benefit of it being tested and improved in live. Both vendor and buyer in that situation should have proper risk management set up before any implemenation which highlights the risk of such an approach. Here we seem to have had an antirisk management aporoach where issues were deliberately buried.
I'd like to see people prosecuted for this, and Fujitsu sued. I fear that the time that has passed, and the complexity of the subject will make it diificult. I suspect that many records will be missing simoky because the amount of time passed is far more than the legal requirements for record keeping.
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I also have some experience with new systems being implemented (in the NHS) and whenever a new system started up or an update was done we had a checklist of items that we watched for changes, re-running reports to check we got the same outcomes, (and on and on) and also feedback from the staff using the systems. It still seems inconceivable to me that this was not picked up, which leads me to the same conclusion that everyone else has come to which is that this was malicious and wilful behaviour on the part of the PO/ICL/Fujitsu.
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Vennells handing back CBE. I'm still baffled how the govt thought it was reasonable giving it, and the lack of accepting responsibility for that undermines their weaselly witless maunderings now.
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BBC on Paula Vennells' CBE
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67925304
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It still seems inconceivable to me that this was not picked up, which leads me to the same conclusion that everyone else has come to which is that this was malicious and wilful behaviour on the part of the PO/ICL/Fujitsu.
As I said above, the Post Office had to pay Fujitsu every time they wanted a defect fixed and Fujitsu had to pay the Post Office if they reported too many issues to the PO. Couple that with the internal culture that has persisted for centuries in which sub-postmasters are "not us" and untrustworthy and it's inconceivable to me that something like this could be avoided.
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Be interesting to see how this plays out for Scotland. It seems a bit much of the SNP to play dumb, even though it's appealing to their strength
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67937805
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The real heroes of the affair - MPs.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mps-finally-recognise-the-real-heroes-of-the-post-office-scandal-mps/ar-AA1mLzSf
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The real heroes of the affair - MPs.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mps-finally-recognise-the-real-heroes-of-the-post-office-scandal-mps/ar-AA1mLzSf
Excellent.
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Scary, compulsive viewing from the enquiry with Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office investigator, being questioned.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67941754
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Tangled tangles
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/now-education-secretary-gillian-keegans-husband-michael-is-dragged-into-post-office-scandal-as-labour-says-inquiry-should-consider-his-role-as-head-of-horizon-it-supplier-fujitsu/ar-AA1mGUzy
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More on the Crown Office involvement in Scotland
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67945208
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Indeed
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'Post Office lied and threatened BBC over Horizon whistleblower'.
I feel the BBC is in part readying a position that they did everything they could as investigative journalism in case questions are asked about it needing a drama to get anything done. We may soon be running out of people who can ask questions.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743
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Tangled tangles
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/now-education-secretary-gillian-keegans-husband-michael-is-dragged-into-post-office-scandal-as-labour-says-inquiry-should-consider-his-role-as-head-of-horizon-it-supplier-fujitsu/ar-AA1mGUzy
Consider this:
He denies any wrongdoing while at Fujitsu, having been CEO for little more than a year in 2014 and 2015, before the legal case by the sub-postmasters against the Post Office began in 2016.
Yes, he was not in charge for most of the period during which this was going on, but, he must have known about it. you're not going to convince me that the CEO of the Post Office didn't know what what going on in his own organisation until people started nbringing lawsuits.
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Consider this:
Yes, he was not in charge for most of the period during which this was going on, but, he must have known about it. you're not going to convince me that the CEO of the Post Office didn't know what what going on in his own organisation until people started nbringing lawsuits.
And the issues had been raised long before this. I knew about it it in 2014.
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'Post Office lied and threatened BBC over Horizon whistleblower'.
I feel the BBC is in part readying a position that they did everything they could as investigative journalism in case questions are asked about it needing a drama to get anything done. We may soon be running out of people who can ask questions.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743
Two Panorama programmes and a series on Radio 4. I don't really think you can claim the BBC wasn't pulling its weight.
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Two Panorama programmes and a series on Radio 4. I don't really think you can claim the BBC wasn't pulling its weight.
I think that anyoneserious involved in journalism will be asking themselves if they did enough given the length of time that it took, and it needed a dramatisation to really get action.
I agree with you that the BBC were at the forefront of what was done. The ongoing questions around its funding though means I think it is currently, and could be seen in the article linked, making sure that it be seen to have done that.
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Scary, compulsive viewing from the enquiry with Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office investigator, being questioned.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67941754
Indeed. A hypocritical, heartless Anglican priest* at the helm, and a Scouse thug to do the dirty work.
*Like the historical pirate comparison, btw.
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Ian Hislop incandescent on the Peston show:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/ian-hislop-post-office-peston-bates-b2476889.html&ved=2ahUKEwjYjtCQg9iDAxVt9LsIHdt1BUsQFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2FEwh_Mo77TNHFEeoKZAEy
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Blair warned about Horizon but not about what became the issue. Don't think it's a smoking IT system.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495
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An alleged murderer may have been wrongly convicted due to the Horizon system.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder
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An alleged murderer may have been wrongly convicted due to the Horizon system.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder
Reading the article, My gut is leaping about shouting 'Guilty as sin'. I really must take it to gut training school.
BUT the conviction is obviously unsafe.
The guy that is writing the book is going to be in demand.
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Reading the article, My gut is leaping about shouting 'Guilty as sin'. I really must take it to gut training school.
BUT the conviction is obviously unsafe.
The guy that is writing the book is going to be in demand.
I'm in agreement with you. I think he did it, but if the Horizon data was crucial evidence to the conviction, it was unsafe.
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Interesting stuff from Fujitsu Chief Exec, Paul Patterson at the enquiry. Seems to be opening themselves up to being sued, and admitting it, as better in the long run. I wonder how much that strategy has changed in the last few weeks.
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Roll up, roll up, get your seats at the Fujitsu workers special
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-68004381
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There seems to be a new policy in the C of E of getting senior managers from industry to be ordained, serve for a period as a non-stipendiary minister, and then be given a senior clerical appointment. As well as Appalling Paula / Venal Vennels, who was shortlisted for the Bishopric of London, there is Sarah Mullally, the former chief nursing officer for England and Wales, who eventually got the job, and, of course, Justin Welby, a former senior oil executive. If I'm right, I think they should stop it at once. I want my archbishops and senior bishops to be dedicated, life-long clergy, not managerial whizz-kids.
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Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret, documents reveal
'A Post Office board sub-committee, codenamed "Project Sparrow", took the decision with the full knowledge of the government.'
Well, that's alright then.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300
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Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret, documents reveal
'A Post Office board sub-committee, codenamed "Project Sparrow", took the decision with the full knowledge of the government.'
Well, that's alright then.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300
It's quite annoying that the BBC has got an image of the minutes showing the redactions, but you can't make it big enough to read.
As for the Post Office management, I don't know how they live with themselves.
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It's quite annoying that the BBC has got an image of the minutes showing the redactions, but you can't make it big enough to read.
As for the Post Office management, I don't know how they live with themselves.
And any govt statements distancing from this as if it had nothing to do with them are underlined as being lies.
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'Post Office still pursued sisters after case thrown out' - incredible. This needs to have criminal peoceedings following.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68204594
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'Post Office still pursued sisters after case thrown out' - incredible. This needs to have criminal peoceedings following.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68204594
Well in one very small sense, they were lucky. In England, the case would have gone ahead because, in England the Post Office can bring its own cases.
As for criminal proceedings: well, after the case was thrown out, the PO continued to pursue the sisters despite knowing that they may very well not have owed any money. They threatened the sisters with debt collectors so the sisters paid them. How is that not extortion? Extracting money with menaces is a crime and people need to go to jail for this.
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I think the govt is hoping people get distracted from what happened on their watch. After much running round following the TV programme, silence...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68315021
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I think the govt is hoping people get distracted from what happened on their watch. After much running round following the TV programme, silence...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68315021
But that doesn't look to be going well
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465
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'Cameron government knew Post Office ditched Horizon IT investigation' - the best the govt can be on this is totally and utterly incompetent
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054
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'Cameron government knew Post Office ditched Horizon IT investigation' - the best the govt can be on this is totally and utterly incompetent
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054
That is actually a bit of non news. The Post Office dropped the investigation on '"very strong advice" from the senior barrister representing them' not because the government told them to. I suppose the government could have ordered them to restart the investigation but this pales into insignificance compared with previous and later negligence from governments of all stripes.
On the other hand, it is pretty despicable to try to prioritise winning a case over finding the truth. This should have been a wake up call to the PO management, and the government, that they were on the wrong side of this one.
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John Crace on Kemi B (if she loses her seat she could do worse than use that for a new career in music):
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/19/it-must-be-exhausting-to-be-kemi-badenoch-anger-her-ever-faithful-companion
"It must be exhausting to be Kemi Badenoch. That never-ending surge of rage. Not the slightest effort to keep it repressed."
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John Crace on Kemi B (if she loses her seat she could do worse than use that for a new career in music):
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/19/it-must-be-exhausting-to-be-kemi-badenoch-anger-her-ever-faithful-companion
"It must be exhausting to be Kemi Badenoch. That never-ending surge of rage. Not the slightest effort to keep it repressed."
If she loses in Saffron Walden where there's a 27, 594 majority, I'll take up DJing myself. She comes across as one of the more capable ministers, not the highest of bars. This seems an odd stance to take. I would have thought you either ignored the claim in the hope that it went away, or just issued documentation on the instructions.
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All of this gives the impression that no one knew what they were doing.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68357074
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All of this gives the impression that no one knew what they were doing.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68357074
And today's lesson is clarity is a virtue - even if govt and the civil service think plausible deniability is a higher one.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68357074
Those both link to the same story.
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All very well to remove Vennells's CBE but is there no responsibility for having awarded it in the first place.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68384240
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Those both link to the same story.
Thanks, the link was majorly rewritten from my first posting of it, and I hadn't seen that it was the same but different. Removed first one.
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All very well to remove Vennells's CBE but is there no responsibility for having awarded it in the first place.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68384240
Apparently, Ireland scrapped the honours system on independence, and hasn't got one to this day. Maybe we should scrap ours, given the number removed for misbehaviour over the last decade or two.
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If there wasn't people's lives affected, it would make great television.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68411615
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If there wasn't people's lives affected, it would make great television.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68411615
Arguably it will make great television because people's lives are affected.
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Unbelievable
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/post-office-boss-threatened-to-resign-over-1m-salary-dispute-report-claims/ar-BB1jfXfb
As is this, if for slightly different reasons.
https://www.msn.com/en-ph/news/world/post-office-scandal-victim-makes-plea-at-brits/ar-BB1jg6aJ
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Unbelievable
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/post-office-boss-threatened-to-resign-over-1m-salary-dispute-report-claims/ar-BB1jfXfb
As is this, if for slightly different reasons.
https://www.msn.com/en-ph/news/world/post-office-scandal-victim-makes-plea-at-brits/ar-BB1jg6aJ
I think I'd want a million pounds if I was being asked to clean up the Post Office mess. It's a poisoned chalice.
Of course, whether it was deserved or not doesn't really matter. It looks really bad, given that a lot of post masters are still waiting for their compensation, which will not amount to £1 million.
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I think I'd want a million pounds if I was being asked to clean up the Post Office mess. It's a poisoned chalice.
Of course, whether it was deserved or not doesn't really matter. It looks really bad, given that a lot of post masters are still waiting for their compensation, which will not amount to £1 million.
And if you are the govt, you now have a CEO who tgreatened to resign over wanting a salary increase that in a cost of living crisis will be seen as obscence, even leaving aside the mess of the Post Office, and you are now seen as having been unable to sack him which woild have been the long term politic thing to do because you've fucked this up so badly, and you've just sacked the chairman, who is in lart behind the information about the CEO, and after 14 years of being in charge of this mess which you only focussed on after a TV programme you still have no grip on what's hapoening, and are years from any form of justice.
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Incredible stuff on the cover up from Channel 4
https://www.channel4.com/news/covert-recordings-obtained-by-c4news-prove-post-office-covered-up-scandal-for-years
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More on the cover up, this time from the BBC, which seems to completely ignore the Channel 4 stuff.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68663750
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Amazingly, it seems to keep getting worse
https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-paula-vennells-was-briefed-about-covert-operations-team-that-could-alert-subpostmaster-accounts-two-years-before-parliamentary-appearence
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Amazingly, it seems to keep getting worse
https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-paula-vennells-was-briefed-about-covert-operations-team-that-could-alert-subpostmaster-accounts-two-years-before-parliamentary-appearence
I wouldn't trust that lawyer to be telling the truth in that recording. The hesitancy in her voice says to me that she is talking about what she should have been doing, not what she has actually done. "We mentioned it", "we had a chat about it". Not convinced.
I'm not trying to excuse anybody here, but the recording is not the bombshell Channel 4 is making it out to be and a lot of their report is just rehashing stuff we already knew.
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I wouldn't trust that lawyer to be telling the truth in that recording. The hesitancy in her voice says to me that she is talking about what she should have been doing, not what she has actually done. "We mentioned it", "we had a chat about it". Not convinced.
I'm not trying to excuse anybody here, but the recording is not the bombshell Channel 4 is making it out to be and a lot of their report is just rehashing stuff we already knew.
I think.some of it is 'colouring in' things that were presumed but I don't think it was known that the investigations clearly revealed the knowledge in the Post Office 2 years before Vennells lied to parliament.
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The weird world of the HoP
https://www.channel4.com/news/post-office-people-are-furious-in-the-house-of-commons-that-parliament-has-been-misled-labour-mp-says
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'Alan Bates says Post Office was run by 'thugs in suits'"
Pretty much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68769090
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Fascinating stiff at the inquiry with Lord Arbuthnot.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-68775287
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Sub-postmistress jailed while pregnant rejects ex-Post Office boss' apology - quite right too.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68787990
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Comment by the BBC on todays evidence from Alan Cook. Just wow.
"It is impossible to overstate how extraordinary this morning's admission was.
The man who was in charge of the Post Office at the height of this scandal was unaware his own organisation had the power of prosecution.
Alan Cook says he assumed when he heard people mention "going to court" that the police or Crown Prosecution Service were involved. Generally, they were not.
That remained the case, he says, for three years.
Cook has pointed the blame for that lack of knowledge on the unclear wording used on certain documents, the structure of the business and his own assumptions."
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Comment by the BBC on todays evidence from Alan Cook. Just wow.
"It is impossible to overstate how extraordinary this morning's admission was.
The man who was in charge of the Post Office at the height of this scandal was unaware his own organisation had the power of prosecution.
Alan Cook says he assumed when he heard people mention "going to court" that the police or Crown Prosecution Service were involved. Generally, they were not.
That remained the case, he says, for three years.
Cook has pointed the blame for that lack of knowledge on the unclear wording used on certain documents, the structure of the business and his own assumptions."
it's interesting this. In one sense, I'm terms of the ignorance, it's really damning about anyone at that level not knowing what's going on. On another level, though it seems the implication that it being done by a 'third party' would somehow reduce your accountability for making sure you were right which is an odd and dangerous mindset to have.
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it's interesting this. In one sense, I'm terms of the ignorance, it's really damning about anyone at that level not knowing what's going on. On another level, though it seems the implication that it being done by a 'third party' would somehow reduce your accountability for making sure you were right which is an odd and dangerous mindset to have.
He's either wilfully ignorant or he's lying. Either way he's culpable for the SPMs misery over the years.
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Comment by the BBC on todays evidence from Alan Cook. Just wow.
The man who was in charge of the Post Office at the height of this scandal was unaware his own organisation had the power of prosecution.
Even though he received monthly reports on headed notepaper which clearly indicated that this was the case.
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Even though he received monthly reports on headed notepaper which clearly indicated that this was the case.
I'm not sure that it would be obvious that it was the Post Office doing that without the CPS. If you wrote reports about it, even if the organisation didn't have the power to prosecute, you could write it as if it did 'We are pursuing the protection...'. The problem is that in terms of whether any third party was doing the prosecution then that doesn't remove the duty to ensure the prosecution is fair from the Post Office.
The prisecutions at this stage seem more based on incompetence rather than actively conspiratorial. Cook does not seem to have been aware of the problems with horizon. Indeed the most damning parts of his emails seem to bear that out.
That's of no solace to those prosecuted and defamed at the time though.
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I suspected that those being interrogated would rely on two main tactics: extraordinary bouts of amnesia, and then, when their backs were against the wall, attempts to pass the buck ("Please sir, it wasn't me, it was him/her").
In the case of Cook, after a raft of memory lapses, he did rely on the latter. And he named her: Paula Vennells.
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I suspected that those being interrogated would rely on two main tactics: extraordinary bouts of amnesia, and then, when their backs were against the wall, attempts to pass the buck ("Please sir, it wasn't me, it was him/her").
In the case of Cook, after a raft of memory lapses, he did rely on the latter. And he named her: Paula Vennells.
In terms of the timeline that we have, it does seem clear that Cook wasn't in charge when it was known that the system was a problem, and that changes could be made by Fujitsu. That doesn't mean he's without blame but that the issues are different.
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Ffs, as so many times in this.
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In danger of doing some permanent damage by shaking my head so hard with some of this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68792637
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Really damning testimony today from Jarnail Singh today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d4j5m3l08o (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d4j5m3l08o)
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Really damning testimony today from Jarnail Singh today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d4j5m3l08o (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d4j5m3l08o)
It wisnae me, a big boy did it and ran away, the dog saved it on my computer.
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Alan Bates rejects second Post Office compensation offer - and every time he does it just looks as if they are still not listening.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjr74ezvpq0o
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Important day tomorrow at the inquiry with Paula Vennells giving evidence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg33yjdpn0qo
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Link to live reporting, and live viewing of Vennells at the inquiry.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-69042928
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Vennells appears to be doing a very long Manuel from Fawlty Towers defence that she knew nothing
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'I was not competent to do my job, and unable to ask questions about things I didn't understand'
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Odd approach to the 'truth' from Vennells
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Meanwhile Vennells continues to elicit groans
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-69042928
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Crucial to the inquiry as to whether the idea that the Horizon system might have bugs was 'world changing information'. Utterly baffling to me that any semi competent senior manager with even a smidgen of experience with IT could think that it didn't.
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'Vennells told not to make Post Office front page news' - went well.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cl44j0xgeljo
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Get your Daily Vennells 'ere.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-69056259
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Vennells says she 'loved the Post Office'. That seems to me a problem in anyone dealing with an organisation as a leader.
ETA - it seems to have meant she saw those running the post offices as antithetical to the organisation of 'Post Office', and that any criticism of the Horizon system as if it was an attack on the 'Post Office'.
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One take on the 5 big points from Vennells testimony this week.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgxx1zgpn0ko
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Vennells says she 'loved the Post Office'. That seems to me a problem in anyone dealing with an organisation as a leader.
ETA - it seems to have meant she saw those running the post offices as antithetical to the organisation of 'Post Office', and that any criticism of the Horizon system as if it was an attack on the 'Post Office'.
The sub postmasters are not part of the Post Office: they are sub contractors. Those actually running the Post Office thought of them as not necessarily to be trusted. When she says she loved the Post Office she thought the sub postmasters were people from whom it needed to be protected.
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Giving evidence to the inquiry is Alice Perkins, former Chair of the Post Office, and married to Jack Straw, former Home Secretary.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-69091679
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Evidence from the forensic investigators sounds damning
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyddlynqlryo
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And even now, the Post Office continues to fail
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd110nl7dppo
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Apparently the only problem with the system was it wasn't defended enough by the Post Office. A bit of a take generally but from the former leader of the sub postmasters union....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyxxz799vxko
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Another fascinating day at the hearing. I'm struggling with why Jenkins thought being an expert witness was sensible given his lack of understanding about what it meant. If anyone I worked with in IT had ever said they were going to be an expert witness, I'd have first told them don't and then tried to get them to understand if they were to do that they would have to be incredibly specific about what they were saying.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cmjjjg8drggt
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Another fascinating day at the hearing. I'm struggling with why Jenkins thought being an expert witness was sensible given his lack of understanding about what it meant. If anyone I worked with in IT had ever said they were going to be an expert witness, I'd have first told them don't and then tried to get them to understand if they were to do that they would have to be incredibly specific about what they were saying.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cmjjjg8drggt
The recap at your link says Jenkins didn't understand he was classed as an expert witness. I'd be amazed if I was being asked to testify on a system that I helped build and was classified as an expert witness. Can you say "conflict of interest"?
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More head shaking. Whether it's a specific failing of Ed Davey, or built in to having govt ministers with little knowledge of their remits, it underlines that there is little accountability in govt.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/ce786npwdgkt
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Not saying what Swinson says is wrong but it's very much a big girl did it and ran away, meanwhile I didn't do my job
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4ngr82zedxo
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Not saying what Swinson says is wrong but it's very much a big girl did it and ran away, meanwhile I didn't do my job
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4ngr82zedxo
Interesting how we expect everybody involved to be omniscient.
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Interesting how we expect everybody involved to be omniscient.
I think it's more that if we take the statements of ministers as correct then the idea of responsibility and accountability is just a fiction. To be fair, that's always a question with ministers being changed so frequently, and appointed to areas in which they have no expertise and knowledge.
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Vince Cable pointing out that there is not enough understanding of computers and systems in public life, which I agree with. I'm not sure his solution will work if ministers responsible for areas don't understand computers and systems. It's also worth pointing out that there were plenty of people involved at Fujitsu who did understand.
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Looks like progress on the compensation scheme.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51yd9qg7qyo
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But not much on the actual system
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj6ez6p567do
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But not much on the actual system
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj6ez6p567do
Not quite sure what you are saying here. Looks like it's still a version of Horizon.
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Not quite sure what you are saying here. Looks like it's still a version of Horizon.
Sorry, I should have quoted the previous post where I had noted that there had been progress on the compensation scheme, and was then contrasting that with the system still causing problems.
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Sorry, I should have quoted the previous post where I had noted that there had been progress on the compensation scheme, and was then contrasting that with the system still causing problems.
That makes sense. I find it somewhat surprising that they still can't make it at least get the numbers right.
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That makes sense. I find it somewhat surprising that they still can't make it at least get the numbers right.
I don't know if they have just given up on the system because of the mess but even so it's 20 years of wrong.
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I don't know if they have just given up on the system because of the mess but even so it's 20 years of wrong.
I'd be surprised if the original software even ran on modern hardware. It may just be that they are still calling it "Horizon" even though much of it has been rewritten.
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More lying.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgw9e9708xo
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And a new, but older scandal?
https://news.sky.com/story/second-post-office-it-scandal-report-says-it-is-likely-capture-software-caused-shortfalls-13225363
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The slow progress sees another sub post mistress die before it's sorted
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm24r00146po
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Kier tardy in replying to Alan Bates
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cz7w00jpzj8t
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Kier tardy in replying to Alan Bates
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cz7w00jpzj8t
That's a link to a BBC live feed. The story you want to highlight will eventually disappear at the bottom of the page. I recommend you use the "share" button to share links to live feeds. And, since the URL is a bit of a monstrosity...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cz7w00jpzj8t?post=asset%3A82406a40-1a74-41d0-a540-2cbe88bcbf27#post
... , use URL BBCode like this: the story you want, I think (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cz7w00jpzj8t?post=asset%3A82406a40-1a74-41d0-a540-2cbe88bcbf27#post).
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Someone rushed out a reply
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7v372zyz98o
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Last week for the inquiry.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c3vl3lgpv5et
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"'Dozens' being investigated over Post Office scandal" - but cases may not be brought till 2027 at the earliest. I fear that many of them will fail due to the time passed, combined with the complexity of the cases
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgr19lwgv0o
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"'Dozens' being investigated over Post Office scandal" - but cases may not be brought till 2027 at the earliest. I fear that many of them will fail due to the time passed, combined with the complexity of the cases
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgr19lwgv0o
It's secondary anyway. It's more important to make the victims whole again as far as possible and to learn the lessons that will prevent something like this happening again.
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It's secondary anyway. It's more important to make the victims whole again as far as possible and to learn the lessons that will prevent something like this happening again.
Surely one of the things that will make at least some of the victims to be whole again is as is covered in the article people being held responsible. And one of the things that would make it less likely to happen again is being being held responsible.
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Surely one of the things that will make at least some of the victims to be whole again is as is covered in the article people being held responsible. And one of the things that would make it less likely to happen again is being being held responsible.
The report will tell us who is responsible. What you imply is that vengeance is needed.
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The report will tell us who is responsible. What you imply is that vengeance is needed.
Why is holding people responsible for this, vengeance, as opposed to justice?
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Why is holding people responsible for this, vengeance, as opposed to justice?
Justice would be for people who have broken the law to face the consequences of that. Justice involves an element of retribution (a better word than vengeance, that I should have used in my previous post). However, putting somebody in prison isn't going to help the victims in this case.
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Justice would be for people who have broken the law to face the consequences of that. Justice involves an element of retribution (a better word than vengeance, that I should have used in my previous post). However, putting somebody in prison isn't going to help the victims in this case.
Except some victims would seem to disagree from the article, and it would show that there are consequences to such actions which is important if you are to avoid it happening again?
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Why is holding people responsible for this, vengeance, as opposed to justice?
"Justice" is too often a euphemism for vengeance. People should be prosecuted, but it's of secondary importance.
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"Justice" is too often a euphemism for vengeance. People should be prosecuted, but it's of secondary importance.
Not to having a culture of responsibility. And not to some of the victims. Too often in large scandals like this, no one has had any accountability, and it rots people's faith in what justice means.
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I'd have thought that if investigations showed that those behind the prosecutions that have subsequently been found to be unsafe, and for which compensation is judged appropriate, had failed to properly discharge their responsibilities to the extent of perjury or flagrant misconduct, then they should be held accountable for their actions.
After all, they held to account people who were wrongly punished, so in turn they should answer for any harm their conduct caused to others.
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"Justice" is too often a euphemism for vengeance. People should be prosecuted, but it's of secondary importance.
Justice is a process not an outcome.
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Except some victims would seem to disagree from the article, and
But you want due process, right? These people have to have broken a law in a demonstrable way and you can't put them in prison just because it might make some other people feel a bit better about the whole thing.
it would show that there are consequences to such actions which is important if you are to avoid it happening again?
There seems to have been a culture of denying that anything was wrong. Perhaps if the consequences of admitting fault weren't so dire, people wouldn't have done all the covering up in the first place and all this would never have happened.
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But you want due process, right? These people have to have broken a law in a demonstrable way and you can't put them in prison just because it might make some other people feel a bit better about the whole thing.
There seems to have been a culture of denying that anything was wrong. Perhaps if the consequences of admitting fault weren't so dire, people wouldn't have done all the covering up in the first place and all this would never have happened.
I haven't suggested anyone should be put in prison just because other people want to feel better.
The cover up is part of the behaviour that may be part of criminal proceedings, so saying the penalties for a cover up caused the cover up seems odd.
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I haven't suggested anyone should be put in prison just because other people want to feel better.
The cover up is part of the behaviour that may be part of criminal proceedings, so saying the penalties for a cover up caused the cover up seems odd.
Why do you think people engage in CYA type activities? It's because they perceive that owning up to a mistake might have adverse consequences for them. Therefore they cover them up.
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Why do you think people engage in CYA type activities? It's because they perceive that owning up to a mistake might have adverse consequences for them. Therefore they cover them up.
And again if the cover up is part of the what is prosecuted, and they are scared to face the consequences then it's simply doubling down. Your position seems to be that there should be no consequences for what people do.
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Surely though if some PO managers knowingly proceeded to prosecute people where it was already known that the Horizon system had relevant errors and/or its data could be amended post hoc, leading to harm being wrongly done to others, then their conduct merits review.
If I ignore road signs when driving and cause harm then I may be prosecuted for careless or dangerous driving, since I either ignored signs or had failed in my responsibility to to be aware of them - in other words I was negligent. Seems to me that whether the PO managers were negligent to the point of causing harm is relevant, especially since some of the convictions these managers pursued have since been set aside.
If they subsequently committed perjury then that is a serious matter.
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A tragic scandal
https://news.sky.com/story/at-least-70-people-in-post-office-and-royal-mail-knew-of-horizon-it-flaws-fujitsu-lawyer-tells-inquiry-13275432?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
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Surely though if some PO managers knowingly proceeded to prosecute people where it was already known that the Horizon system had relevant errors and/or its data could be amended post hoc, leading to harm being wrongly done to others, then their conduct merits review.
If I ignore road signs when driving and cause harm then I may be prosecuted for careless or dangerous driving, since I either ignored signs or had failed in my responsibility to to be aware of them - in other words I was negligent. Seems to me that whether the PO managers were negligent to the point of causing harm is relevant, especially since some of the convictions these managers pursued have since been set aside.
If they subsequently committed perjury then that is a serious matter.
If people break the law, they should face the consequences but only after due process. However, there's an undercurrent of vengeance that I don't like. In some people's minds, it seems like making somebody pay is the most important thing. This is not the case. The most important thing is understanding why it happened and stopping it from happening again, closely followed by doing what we can to clear up the mess it has made of people's lives. Holding people to account for the laws they have broken is third and, even then, we need to adhere to due process and not lower the standard for conviction just because we want to see people in prison.
There's always a problem in situations like this in that convicting people and finding out what really happened are goals that are in tension, because the people who know what really happen are often the ones in danger of conviction and they may be less than cooperative because they want to avoid jail.
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If people break the law, they should face the consequences but only after due process. However, there's an undercurrent of vengeance that I don't like. In some people's minds, it seems like making somebody pay is the most important thing. This is not the case. The most important thing is understanding why it happened and stopping it from happening again, closely followed by doing what we can to clear up the mess it has made of people's lives. Holding people to account for the laws they have broken is third and, even then, we need to adhere to due process and not lower the standard for conviction just because we want to see people in prison.
There's always a problem in situations like this in that convicting people and finding out what really happened are goals that are in tension, because the people who know what really happen are often the ones in danger of conviction and they may be less than cooperative because they want to avoid jail.
So you think that those who suffered this, who you earlier wanted to complete, and want to see the prosecutions are just thinking about vengeance and their opinion should be taken after your's because it's not important in your view.
Again, if there is no accountability, then the lessons won't be learned.
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And gongs for being persecuted but too many who were part of that also have gongs and have been rewarded for their failure.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/horizon-scandal-victims-recognised-new-year-honours-list/
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Meanwhile the compensation is still slow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20ey5g88eno
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So you think that those who suffered this, who you earlier wanted to complete, and want to see the prosecutions are just thinking about vengeance and their opinion should be taken after your's because it's not important in your view.
If the law has been broken, then people need to face the consequences, but your attitude stinks.
It's much more important to ensure that things like this do not happen again and much more important to fix the system that let this happen.
Again, if there is no accountability, then the lessons won't be learned.
Let's say Paula Vennells goes to prison. Who learns a lesson from that and what lesson do they learn? Paula Vennells learns that she shouldn't have done what she did but she is never going to be CEO of a large organisation again and it would have been better for her to learn the lesson before she took over the Post Office, so the lesson is wasted on her.
Will other people learn lessons from her conviction? Maybe, but the lesson might be "if you screw up, don't get caught".
The reason I say your attitude stinks is that my position is quite nuanced but you are trying to paint a black and white picture so you can score your debating points. The reality is that the desire to make people pay for the damage they caused and the desire to find out what went wrong and fix it for the future are in tension and it's a tricky path to navigate.
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If the law has been broken, then people need to face the consequences, but your attitude stinks.
It's much more important to ensure that things like this do not happen again and much more important to fix the system that let this happen.Let's say Paula Vennells goes to prison. Who learns a lesson from that and what lesson do they learn? Paula Vennells learns that she shouldn't have done what she did but she is never going to be CEO of a large organisation again and it would have been better for her to learn the lesson before she took over the Post Office, so the lesson is wasted on her.
Will other people learn lessons from her conviction? Maybe, but the lesson might be "if you screw up, don't get caught".
The reason I say your attitude stinks is that my position is quite nuanced but you are trying to paint a black and white picture so you can score your debating points. The reality is that the desire to make people pay for the damage they caused and the desire to find out what went wrong and fix it for the future are in tension and it's a tricky path to navigate.
So you are saying to those persecuted by these failures that their desire to see people held accountable for that stinks. So much for you wanting to compete them as you suggested earlier.
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So you are saying to those persecuted by these failures that their desire to see people held accountable for that stinks.
No I am not. I am saying your attitude stinks. And this is another example. You have twisted what I said yet again to come up with a straw man to argue.
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No I am not. I am saying your attitude stinks. And this is another example. You have twisted what I said yet again to come up with a straw man to argue.
Because if you think my attitude stink because I want accountability, then you think their attitude stinks because they want accountability. That's how ligic works.
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Alan Bates unimpressed
https://news.sky.com/story/sub-postmasters-still-going-through-hell-lead-campaigner-sir-alan-bates-says-13308100
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Because if you think my attitude stink because I want accountability, then you think their attitude stinks because they want accountability. That's how ligic works.
Accountability is not the same as retribution.
It's understandable that some of the victims want punishment for those who put them through hell, and I agree that anybody who breaks the law must answer but they do deserve due process and quite importantly, that won't do anything to compensate the victims, nor will it do much to stop something like this from happening again.
If you want to learn what went wrong and how to fix it, you need the cooperation of everybody involved. Threats of lynchings tend to make that difficult.
I say your attitude stinks because you focus on making the bad actors pay rather than on fixing the problem. To be fair, it's a common attitude. Although you do compound it by twisting my words instead of engaging with what I've written.
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Accountability is not the same as retribution.
It's understandable that some of the victims want punishment for those who put them through hell, and I agree that anybody who breaks the law must answer but they do deserve due process and quite importantly, that won't do anything to compensate the victims, nor will it do much to stop something like this from happening again.
If you want to learn what went wrong and how to fix it, you need the cooperation of everybody involved. Threats of lynchings tend to make that difficult.
I say your attitude stinks because you focus on making the bad actors pay rather than on fixing the problem. To be fair, it's a common attitude. Although you do compound it by twisting my words instead of engaging with what I've written.
Where have I said that due process shouldn't be followed or that there should be lynchings If you want due process, it might make you look less of a hypocrite if you didn't lie about what I've said
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And on and on it goes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2ernpd0k22o