Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on February 11, 2024, 08:32:52 PM
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Labour candidate off to great start
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68267951
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Though the Green Party candidate will be stepping down for insulting Palestinians and Islam,and the Reform UK candidate is the ex Labour MP who got suspended for exchanging explicit messages with a 17 year old girl, and of course there's George Galloway. There are 11 candidates and they are all male
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68250468
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Though the Green Party candidate will be stepping down for insulting Palestinians and Islam,and the Reform UK candidate is the ex Labour MP who got suspended for exchanging explicit messages with a 17 year old girl, and of course there's George Galloway. There are 11 candidates and they are all male
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68250468
It seems in this case, all have fallen short.
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Bloody hell! I used to know Guy Otten 50-odd years ago, when we were both peaceniks in Manchester! At the time, he was a very liberal Catholic, but I discovered recently that he is now a humanist.
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Not sure that apologising without sanction works here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68272820
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Not sure that apologising without sanction works here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68272820
And in the end it wasn't enough for the Labour party and they have withdrawn support. No wonder people have little time for politicians
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I mean What the Fuck?
Can we please get some competent politicians in this country.
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Not sure the 'in this country' is needed at moment.
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Starmer used to think he was indecisive now he's not so sure
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68284227
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And another Labour candidate gone
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68289460
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Not sure what the unusual quickness of calling the by election by Labour was motivated by but the mess of it so far is hardly a tribute to Tony Lloyd whose funeral it was today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68315787
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A case for none of the fecking above
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68375450
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Simon Danczuk looking for police protection. This by election is deeply depressing in so many ways. Can't think of a good outcome likely on Thursday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68408356
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Simon Danczuk looking for police protection. This by election is deeply depressing in so many ways. Can't think of a good outcome likely on Thursday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68408356
Well yes, the death threat is bad, but frankly, not unexpected.
The thing that depresses me most about the story is the BBC's idea of a "minute manifesto".
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Well yes, the death threat is bad, but frankly, not unexpected.
The thing that depresses me most about the story is the BBC's idea of a "minute manifesto".
I find myself worried that that may overstretch some of the candidates.
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So the polls open. Photo ID is needed to vote. I await the claims of jiggery pokery about this, and almost anything else.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68425011
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And Galloway wins, never a good thing. Bad night for all the main parties, and for Reform.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68443430
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And Galloway wins, never a good thing. Bad night for all the main parties, and for Reform.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68443430
I think it is reasonably easy for Labour to bat away defeat on the basis that they effectively didn't field a candidate and their withdrawal of support for the nominal Labour candidate would have been extremely clear to voters. However while batting away the nature of the defeat will be easy it will be less easy to bat away Galloway now that he is back in parliament - he will be a thorn in their sides for the next however many days it will be until he gets kicked out again at the general election as Rochdale returns to being Labour.
Interesting one for the Tories - while Rochdale certainly isn't fertile territory, to finish third in a contest behind Galloway and an independent when Labour were effectively not standing seems pretty poor. However I guess their candidate considered himself to be merely a paper candidate as he went on holiday during the latter stages of the campaign.
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And Reform is now trying to muddy the waters further:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/rochdale-by-election-was-not-free-and-fair-claims-reform-leader/ar-BB1j8Tiz
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And Reform is now trying to muddy the waters further:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/rochdale-by-election-was-not-free-and-fair-claims-reform-leader/ar-BB1j8Tiz
I am so surprised.
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The problem for Labour isn't the result itself rather it's that they chose a candidate that they then had to disavow for anti semitism, and then Galloway, Farage in a fedora, plays on the tension in the party about its reaction to Gaza.
It's an atrocious result for the Tories but I'm not sure about the holiday point, given that Labour rushed the calling of the by election such that campaigning had started before Tony Lloyd's funeral, something they might regret rushing at. If I'd a holiday booked, not sure in such circumstances I'd cancel it.
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The problem for Labour isn't the result itself rather it's that they chose a candidate that they then had to disavow for anti semitism,
True, but Labour did act pretty quickly and decisively when the issue came out and they may be able to use this to their advantage. I suspect the coming general election will be littered with recordings of candidates saying unacceptable things as it is now so much easier to record these kinds of things. By acting decisively, even when it meant certain defeat in a by election allows Labour to turn fire on others when they don't act so decisively. We are already seeing this with Anderson and the Tories' inability to call what he said racist, rather than just 'wrong'. As more and more candidates have potentially antisemitic or islamophobic comments revealed through the media attention will turn to how it is dealt with rather than its existence.
and then Galloway, Farage in a fedora, plays on the tension in the party about its reaction to Gaza.
True - key is whether he can catalyse pro-Gaza and anti-Labour support elsewhere sufficient to lose them seats in the general election. Galloway won't retain his seat at a general election and I'd be astonished if his party won a seat anywhere at the general election.
It's an atrocious result for the Tories but I'm not sure about the holiday point, given that Labour rushed the calling of the by election such that campaigning had started before Tony Lloyd's funeral, something they might regret rushing at. If I'd a holiday booked, not sure in such circumstances I'd cancel it.
Not sure whether he had been confirmed as a candidate before there was the need for a by election, but if not then surely the selection committee should have checked whether he was available to campaign during the election period. If not then they should have selected someone else.
But the broader point is that his 'being on holiday' lends support to the notion that the Tories have given up, accepted they have lost and are only really interested in which faction gains control in opposition.
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True, but Labour did act pretty quickly and decisively when the issue came out and they may be able to use this to their advantage. I suspect the coming general election will be littered with recordings of candidates saying unacceptable things as it is now so much easier to record these kinds of things. By acting decisively, even when it meant certain defeat in a by election allows Labour to turn fire on others when they don't act so decisively. We are already seeing this with Anderson and the Tories' inability to call what he said racist, rather than just 'wrong'. As more and more candidates have potentially antisemitic or islamophobic comments revealed through the media attention will turn to how it is dealt with rather than its existence.
True - key is whether he can catalyse pro-Gaza and anti-Labour support elsewhere sufficient to lose them seats in the general election. Galloway won't retain his seat at a general election and I'd be astonished if his party won a seat anywhere at the general election.
Not sure whether he had been confirmed as a candidate before there was the need for a by election, but if not then surely the selection committee should have checked whether he was available to campaign during the election period. If not then they should have selected someone else.
But the broader point is that his 'being on holiday' lends support to the notion that the Tories have given up, accepted they have lost and are only really interested in which faction gains control in opposition.
I think the problem with anti semitism is that Labour were alrwady starting from a position of weakness. I think that anti semitism is a bigger problem with the general population than islamophobia. I don't disagree that the Tpries have a major issue with that but that they do is theor problem, and isn't about making Labour's position better.
Normally, I'd agree with you about Galloway not winning the seat at the general but this one may be different. The proximity of the election, the likely continued focus on the war in Gaza, and Labour's issue of trying to get a candidate that will be acceptable in such circumstances but won't tick the anti semitism box is I think different. I don't think the random We Love George party will pick up any other seats.
I'm not sure a by elwction in Rochdale, even before the dreadful farce it became, is one that we can determine the overall mood of the Tories from. I would agree that they had probably given up on the seat itself at the time of choosing a candidate.
They are, I think, hoping (a) that Starmer might sexually assault Kate Middleton, that (b) they get the Islamophobia right to be able to claim the fighting against mob rule idiocy, and (c) that any loss isn't too bad. That is all going to be difficult since as you note many have started the post ele tion internal stramash early.
I 'm glad to see the bad performance of Reform but what on earyh, given everything, possessed them to select Danczuk. They even had the information of how he'd done as an independent to go on.
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I think that anti semitism is a bigger problem with the general population than islamophobia.
Really?!? Not sure I agree with that at all, not least because the UK population that are the target for islamophobia is significantly larger than those that are the target for antisemitism. That isn't a comment on the seriousness - both are extremely serious, merely that if we are talking about things from an electoral point of view stuff which affects more voters tends to be more significant than stuff which affects fewer voters.
I don't disagree that the Tpries have a major issue with that but that they do is theor problem, and isn't about making Labour's position better.
It does if the impression is that Starmer acts quickly and decisively on antisemitism, while Sunak prevaricates and refuses to fully condemn comments which are islamophobic.
Normally, I'd agree with you about Galloway not winning the seat at the general but this one may be different. The proximity of the election, the likely continued focus on the war in Gaza, and Labour's issue of trying to get a candidate that will be acceptable in such circumstances but won't tick the anti semitism box is I think different. I don't think the random We Love George party will pick up any other seats.
Galloway won't win Rochdale at the general election. Indeed he might not even stay. It will revert back to Labour who won over 50% of the vote in 2019 when nationally Labour got a drubbing.
Galloway's lot probably won't win any seats at a general election but their best bet won't be somewhere like Rochdale (with a relatively small muslim population) but somewhere in Tower Hamlets with a very large muslim population and already a borough run by an independent (from Labour) muslim mayor and council (under the banner of Aspire).
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I read NS as meaning that the public perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia.
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I read NS as meaning that the public perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia.
Yep
ETA - I think the Tories can get away with islamophobia and retaun their vote, that is their current polling, and possibly gain. That seems to be their current plan.
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I read NS as meaning that the public perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia.
'the public' - define 'the public' please.
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'the public' - define 'the public' please.
The voters
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As a phrase, I think "the public" is widely understood.
I'm not saying what NS states is the case, merely that was what he meant.
As to the public, who knows what they think? Fed as they are a constant drip of biased information, downright lies and shite.
But I think there has been an attempt to "guide" the public in a direction that puts more "value" on anti-semitism than it does on Islamaphobia.
Not saying it is right. It appears to be the case to me though.
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The voters
In which case evidence please that 'the voters' consider antisemitism to be more of an issue than islamophobia.
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In which case evidence please that 'the voters' consider antisemitism to be more of an issue than islamophobia.
That's not really my position. I think of those who the Tories are looking to get votes from a certain amount of them are Islamophobic, and the Tories are calculating that if they get the amount of Islamophobia 'right', they'll do better than without it.
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As to the public, who knows what they think? Fed as they are a constant drip of biased information, downright lies and shite.
I think the only reasonable way to judge what the public think on a particular matter is through reputable opinion polling and I'm not aware of any poll (may be wrong) that has specifically asked people whether they think antisemitism is more of an issue in the UK than islamophobia.
But I think there has been an attempt to "guide" the public in a direction that puts more "value" on anti-semitism than it does on Islamaphobia.
Not saying it is right. It appears to be the case to me though.
I'd agree with that - it certainly seems to be more 'acceptable' to demonise the muslim population than the jewish population - but whether that make the latter less of an issue than the former is a much more complicated issue. There is a strong argument that prejudice which is accepted by default is more of an issue than prejudice where there is a greater media recognition that it is wrong.
What does seem beyond doubt is that both antisemitic and islamophobic incidents are on the rise and this is deeply worrying.
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That's not really my position. I think of those who the Tories are looking to get votes from a certain amount of them are Islamophobic, and the Tories are calculating that if they get the amount of Islamophobia 'right', they'll do better than without it.
But you agreed with Aruntraveller's interpretation of your post as meaning the public (you then defined as 'the voters') perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia. Not just Tory voters, but 'the voters' - i.e. all voters.
So where is your evidence for this - that 'the voters' perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia. That might be true, but I've seen no proper evidence to support this, rather than general media perceptions, but that is an entirely different matter as editorial slant comes into play.
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But you agreed with Aruntraveller's interpretation of your post as meaning the public (you then defined as 'the voters') perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia. Not just Tory voters, but 'the voters' - i.e. all voters.
So where is your evidence for this - that 'the voters' perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia. That might be true, but I've seen no proper evidence to support this, rather than general media perceptions, but that is an entirely different matter as editorial slant comes into play.
Yes, I agreed with it as a general classification, and I provided a clarification in reply to you. So things have moved on.
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Yes, I agreed with it as a general classification, and I provided a clarification in reply to you. So things have moved on.
Which translates to 'I made a sweeping generalisation which I couldn't back up with evidence'. Hmmm.
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Which translates to 'I made a sweeping generalisation which I couldn't back up with evidence'. Hmmm.
It really doesn't. I apologise that I wasn't clear.
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I apologise that I wasn't clear.
But you were clear - indeed you specifically clarified your position when you responded 'Yup' to Aruntraveller's interpretation of your post as meaning the public perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia.
I then asked for clarification of what was meant by 'the public' and again you were clear that you meant 'the voters'.
So your position was entirely clear - specifically that you considered that the voters perceive anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia.
Yet when challenged to provide evidence you crumble, run away, distract, and apologise for not being clear!! But you were clear - the apology should be for making a claim that you cannot back up when challenged.
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But you were clear - indeed you specifically clarified your position when you responded 'Yup' to Aruntraveller's interpretation of your post as meaning the public perceives anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia.
I then asked for clarification of what was meant by 'the public' and again you were clear that you meant 'the voters'.
So your position was entirely clear - specifically that you considered that the voters perceive anti-semitism as a bigger problem than Islamaphobia.
Yet when challenged to provide evidence you crumble, run away, distract, and apologise for not being clear!! But you were clear - the apology should be for making a claim that you cannot back up when challenged.
You might want to read the addition I put to the reply to Aruntraveller at 3.29, which is in itself a clarification.
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John Crace on Sunak on Galloway. Dumbfuck and Galloway - isn't that a Scottish council region?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/01/rishi-sunak-purposefully-grips-his-lectern-but-shows-he-has-no-grip-of-the-country
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John Crace on Sunak on Galloway. Dumbfuck and Galloway - isn't that a Scottish council region?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/01/rishi-sunak-purposefully-grips-his-lectern-but-shows-he-has-no-grip-of-the-country
And Starmer backed Sunak all the way.
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And Starmer backed Sunak all the way.
This is what I find so frustrating about Starmer, his caution. There's an electoral door that is stood ajar and instead of giving it a push to get it wide open he insists on putting a door stop underneath it.
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This is what I find so frustrating about Starmer, his caution. There's an electoral door that is stood ajar and instead of giving it a push to get it wide open he insists on putting a door stop underneath it.
This is worse than caution. Sunak is attempting to use islamophobia as an electoral strategy, and Starmer is cheerleading it.