Religion and Ethics Forum

Religion and Ethics Discussion => Philosophy, in all its guises. => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 25, 2024, 09:58:16 AM

Title: Weirdness
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 25, 2024, 09:58:16 AM
Interesting and slightly topical

https://johnhorgan.org/cross-check/the-weirdness-of-weirdness
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Outrider on April 25, 2024, 10:05:44 AM
Interesting and slightly topical

https://johnhorgan.org/cross-check/the-weirdness-of-weirdness

I find it difficult to agree with some of his premises - in particular:

"Science has revealed that the origins of the universe, of life and of consciousness are all highly improbable. "

I'm not aware that science has 'revealed' anything of the sort. So far as I can tell, science can't give us any sort of indication of the likelihood of those events beyond it's absolutely certain that it's happened once, but we don't know if that was inevitable or likely or unlikely or if there have been untold billions of chances for it to work out.

He is keying emotion to his response to that conclusion, but I feel like his emotional response to the science has led HIM to that conclusion, which the science itself doesn't support. Then he wanders off into mysticism and spirituality which I'm not sure I've got a take on besides I don't really see a need for it.

O.
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 25, 2024, 11:19:18 AM
The End of Science was pish, and so is this.
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 25, 2024, 11:40:54 AM
I find it difficult to agree with some of his premises - in particular:

"Science has revealed that the origins of the universe, of life and of consciousness are all highly improbable. "

I'm not aware that science has 'revealed' anything of the sort. So far as I can tell, science can't give us any sort of indication of the likelihood of those events beyond it's absolutely certain that it's happened once, but we don't know if that was inevitable or likely or unlikely or if there have been untold billions of chances for it to work out.

He is keying emotion to his response to that conclusion, but I feel like his emotional response to the science has led HIM to that conclusion, which the science itself doesn't support. Then he wanders off into mysticism and spirituality which I'm not sure I've got a take on besides I don't really see a need for it.

O.
I think your post contradicts the falsifiability aspect of science which make probabilities part and parcel of science.

Certainly the probabilities of certain values in science are accessible.
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 25, 2024, 11:52:25 AM
I think your post contradicts the falsifiability aspect of science which make probabilities part and parcel of science.

Certainly the probabilities of certain values in science are accessible.
So your existence is only a probability?
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 25, 2024, 12:01:18 PM
The End of Science was pish, and so is this.
https://johnhorgan.org/cross-check/my-doubts-about-the-end-of-science
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 25, 2024, 12:04:26 PM
https://johnhorgan.org/cross-check/my-doubts-about-the-end-of-science
And?
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 25, 2024, 12:09:00 PM
.And?
Horgan recognises a "pish"(sic) element in his book.
I don't have you down in the cult of scientism. Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 25, 2024, 12:16:43 PM
Horgan recognises a "pish"(sic) element in his book.
I don't have you down in the cult of scientism. Am I wrong?
As always. It's a badly written book with a crap premise trying to join in on millennial nonsense. Have you read it?
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 25, 2024, 12:29:18 PM
as always. It's a badly written book with a crap premise trying to join in on millennial nonsense. Have you read it?
My point is Horgan acknowledges, partially, your poi t that his book contains "Pish". I commented only on an article which mentions the book so me having read it is neither hear nor there.
I think Horgan relates what he terms weirdness to wonder, something scientists bandy about with zero controversy.
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 25, 2024, 12:35:54 PM
My point is Horgan acknowledges, partially, your poi t that his book contains "Pish". I commented only on an article which mentions the book so me having read it is neither hear nor there.
I think Horgan relates what he terms weirdness to wonder, something scientists bandy about with zero controversy.
So you haven't read it  Lucky you.

I think Horgan tries to be a contrarian badly.
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 25, 2024, 12:48:27 PM
So you haven't read it  Lucky you.

I think Horgan tries to be a contrarian badly.
Anyone contrary to scientism can't be all bad.
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 25, 2024, 12:54:16 PM
Anyone contrary to scientism can't be all bad.
Well given you haven't read the book how would know what he thinks?
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Aruntraveller on April 25, 2024, 02:38:18 PM
Anyone contrary to scientism can't be all bad.

Really?

Laurence Fox?
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 26, 2024, 01:26:09 PM
Well given you haven't read the book how would know what he thinks?
I have read his articles, some in Scientific American where he has blasphemed against some of the notions of L. Krauss, SM Carroll, CR Dawkins and Daniel Dennett.
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 26, 2024, 01:27:19 PM
Really?

Laurence Fox?
Laurence Fox? Where does he come in?
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 26, 2024, 02:00:05 PM
I have read his articles, some in Scientific American where he has blasphemed against some of the notions of L. Krauss, SM Carroll, CR Dawkins and Daniel Dennett.
I look forward to you putting up the details of the ones you like. This one though is reminiscent of a night on dope with the bloke from The Fast Show who thought everything was brilliant.
Title: Re: Weirdness
Post by: Outrider on April 26, 2024, 10:11:55 PM
I think your post contradicts the falsifiability aspect of science which make probabilities part and parcel of science.

My post in no way contradicts the falsifiability of science - if it weren't falsifiable, in principle, it wouldn't be science. It does question the possibility, at the current time, of having sufficient information to falsify particular scientific claims, but that's a qualitatively different think, not just  quantitatively.

Quote
Certainly the probabilities of certain values in science are accessible.

Certain values, yes. Not, however, the ones that would need to be relied on in order to make a judgement about the improbability of the universe, let alone about phenomena which are barely understood and not even particularly clearly defined yet, like life and consciousness.

O.