Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on December 15, 2024, 09:43:47 PM
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All the fairy tales get confusing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgr9v1ppglo
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The penny dropped for my now 11 year old grandson last year - and even he had enough sense to not disillusion his little sister.
I know from personal experience, since I do a bit of Santa-ing (I have one essential qualification) that kids younger than 8/9 tend to believe in Santa. They can be very enthusiastic (I mostly see them in groups, such as at school Xmas parties, rather than individually).
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I do wonder why Christianity is more generally anti-Santa. If you build in having to tell children at some point that you've just been pretending, then it's not a great jump for them ro wonder about how reliable your other miraculous claims are.
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There are times my conscience bothers me - but of course kids are surrounded by Santa imagery anyway, and up to a certain age in kids, many adults maintain the lie. I never had to tell my kids, or my older grandkids, that there was no Santa - they worked that out for themselves, as our Struan did last year at age 10 - so I amazed at the furore over this incident, since it involved kids aged 10/11.
But younger kids just see Santa and don't tend to query what they see - my 5 year old grandson was in the group I did the other day: he saw Santa and not his own grandfather. I've learned that it's very powerful image for younger kids: mess with it at your peril!
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I do wonder why Christianity is more generally anti-Santa. If you build in having to tell children at some point that you've just been pretending, then it's not a great jump for them ro wonder about how reliable your other miraculous claims are.
Utterly and boringly predictable response.
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Utterly and boringly predictable response.
So what's the answer? Why lie to children deliberately about something you tie up in your iconography that you know you will reveal to them as being false?
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So what's the answer? Why lie to children deliberately about something you tie up in your iconography that you know you will reveal to them as being false?
Church anti Santa? Do you have evidence for that?
And then there's the inevitable hint of 'how come Christians don't also believe in Santa trope'.
Leprechauns and similar elves must be on the horizon.
A C of E minister muffed up. Surely we can take that in our stride?
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Church anti Santa? Do you have evidence for that?
And then there's the inevitable hint of 'how come Christians don't also believe in Santa trope'.
Leprechauns and similar elves must be on the horizon.
A C of E minister muffed up. Surely we can take that in our stride?
No, I'm saying I'm surprised they aren't more anti Santa. I'm wondering why they package up something that they will have to reveal as a lie. It's not really to do with the individual case other than it triggered me to wonder why have a miraculous claim that some avatar of a saint travels round the world in one night giving out presents, when you know it will be revealed/discovered to be untrue?
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There are times my conscience bothers me - but of course kids are surrounded by Santa imagery anyway, and up to a certain age in kids, many adults maintain the lie. I never had to tell my kids, or my older grandkids, that there was no Santa - they worked that out for themselves, as our Struan did last year at age 10 - so I amazed at the furore over this incident, since it involved kids aged 10/11.
But younger kids just see Santa and don't tend to query what they see - my 5 year old grandson was in the group I did the other day: he saw Santa and not his own grandfather. I've learned that it's very powerful image for younger kids: mess with it at your peril!
What do you say if a kid asks you if you're really Santa? I read somewhere that the standard tactic, to avoid telling an outright lie on one hand or disillusioning the kid on the other, is to say something like "Well, I look like him, don't I?", to which the kid says "yes", to which the Santa impersonator says "Well, there you are then!".
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As a young child I saw a person dressed as Santa, I was really scared. I didn't want him bringing my stocking up to my bedroom and asked my parents to do it for him. Our eldest girl, when she was three, worked out for herself that it would be impossible for Santa to deliver all the stockings to children in one night.
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Vlad,
Church anti Santa? Do you have evidence for that?
And then there's the inevitable hint of 'how come Christians don't also believe in Santa trope'.
Leprechauns and similar elves must be on the horizon.
A C of E minister muffed up. Surely we can take that in our stride?
God and Santa are epistemically equivalent - ie, there’s no evidence for either so those who believe in them do so as matters of faith. The point here I think is that the vicar was on very thin ice.
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What do you say if a kid asks you if you're really Santa? I read somewhere that the standard tactic, to avoid telling an outright lie on one hand or disillusioning the kid on the other, is to say something like "Well, I look like him, don't I?", to which the kid says "yes", to which the Santa impersonator says "Well, there you are then!".
They tend not to - that my beard is real seems to make a huge and immediate difference to my 'credibility', especially if they have previously encountered an 'imposter' Santa with a fake beard :)
One girl, about 5 or 6 years old, just last week, told me that she knew I was really Santa because when I spoke my beard also moved, whereas the Santa she saw in the garden centre had a beard that stayed still while his lips moved underneath - can't argue with that!
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The penny dropped for my now 11 year old grandson last year - and even he had enough sense to not disillusion his little sister.
I know from personal experience, since I do a bit of Santa-ing (I have one essential qualification) that kids younger than 8/9 tend to believe in Santa. They can be very enthusiastic (I mostly see them in groups, such as at school Xmas parties, rather than individually).
I remember quite clearly standing in the school hall before assembly with my friends discussing how big Santa's sack would have to be to carry everybody's presents. The consensus was "probably as big as this hall". The fact we were having the conversation means we must all have been aware of Santa's non-realness already. I'd have been about eight and a half then, so that fits. However, I am always suspicious of people who say their kid still believes in Father Christmas. Once you have the realisation that he doesn't exist and therefore your parents are doing the presents, there is a very strong incentive not to let them know you've sussed them out.
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Church anti Santa? Do you have evidence for that?
And then there's the inevitable hint of 'how come Christians don't also believe in Santa trope'.
Leprechauns and similar elves must be on the horizon.
A C of E minister muffed up. Surely we can take that in our stride?
Vlad,
God and Santa are epistemically equivalent - ie, there’s no evidence for either so those who believe in them do so as matters of faith. The point here I think is that the vicar was on very thin ice.
Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber are in the building.
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SteveH,
Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber are in the building.
Which part of what I said is confusing you?
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I remember quite clearly standing in the school hall before assembly with my friends discussing how big Santa's sack would have to be to carry everybody's presents. The consensus was "probably as big as this hall". The fact we were having the conversation means we must all have been aware of Santa's non-realness already. I'd have been about eight and a half then, so that fits. However, I am always suspicious of people who say their kid still believes in Father Christmas. Once you have the realisation that he doesn't exist and therefore your parents are doing the presents, there is a very strong incentive not to let them know you've sussed them out.
It was just after last Xmas when we realised that our Struan, then aged 10, had stopped believing in Santa long before Xmas arrived. I remember asking him why he didn't say anything sooner, and his reply was that he didn't want to upset us.
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It was just after last Xmas when we realised that our Struan, then aged 10, had stopped believing in Santa long before Xmas arrived. I remember asking him why he didn't say anything sooner, and his reply was that he didn't want to upset us.
But does Santa Claus still visit?
He was still visiting our house when I was in my late teens.
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jeremyp,
But does Santa Claus still visit?
He was still visiting our house when I was in my late teens.
Exactly! Proof positive of his existence I’d say.
Also, for further proof that Santa is real:
1. That’s my faith.
2. Doubters rely on “mere intellectual assent” for their beliefs.
3. You can’t disprove it.
4. Lots of people believe in Santa.
5. He’s magic inne.
6. You cannot assume that materialistic properties must also apply to an intermittently non-material Santa.
7. I really, really wanted a bike last Christmas and even wrote that down on a piece of paper. A bike duty arrived. How do you explain that then Mr Materialist?
8. I find the belief that Santa is real very comforting. Therefore Santa is real.
9. For all those presents to appear on the same morning like that Santa must be a “necessary entity”. QED.
10. Children are rewarded by Santa if they behave well. Therefore children behave well. Therefore objective childhood morality exists. Therefore Santa.
11. In a multiverse everything that can be, is - therefore Santa is real somewhere.
Other theistic - er, I mean Santa-istic arguments are available
That’s settled then I think.
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jeremyp,
Exactly! Proof positive of his existence I’d say.
Also, for further proof that Santa is real:
1. That’s my faith.
2. Doubters rely on “mere intellectual assent” for their beliefs.
3. You can’t disprove it.
4. Lots of people believe in Santa.
5. He’s magic inne.
6. You cannot assume that materials properties must also apply to an intermittently non-material Santa.
7. I really, really wanted a bike last Christmas and even wrote that down on a piece of paper. A bike duty arrived. How do you explain that then Mr Materialist?
8. I find the belief that Santa is real very comforting. Therefore Santa is real.
9. For all those presents to appear on the same morning like that Santa must be a “necessary entity”. QED.
10. Children are rewarded by Santa if they behave well. Therefore children behave better. Therefore objective childhood morality exists. Therefore Santa.
11. In a multiverse everything that can be, is - therefore Santa is real somewhere.
Other theistic - er, I mean Santa-istic arguments are available
That’s settled then I think.
Ho fucking ho fucking ho.
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SteveH,
Ho fucking ho fucking ho.
Glad you agree. Have you hung up your stocking yet – after all, Pascal's wager is another argument for belief in God Santa so what have you got to lose?
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But does Santa Claus still visit?
He was still visiting our house when I was in my late teens.
Not sure - the 8 year old is expressing doubts, and since she joins me in my Santa-ing, as an Elf, I suspect the penny has already dropped for her.
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Vlad,
God and Santa are epistemically equivalent - ie, there’s no evidence for either so those who believe in them do so as matters of faith. The point here I think is that the vicar was on very thin ice.
Apparently though we are looking for a fat male Caucasian. Domiciled in the Arctic.
Though many have been found meeting that description all interrogated have found to be impersonating said character.
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jeremyp,
Exactly! Proof positive of his existence I’d say.
Also, for further proof that Santa is real:
1. That’s my faith.
2. Doubters rely on “mere intellectual assent” for their beliefs.
3. You can’t disprove it.
4. Lots of people believe in Santa.
5. He’s magic inne.
6. You cannot assume that materialistic properties must also apply to an intermittently non-material Santa.
7. I really, really wanted a bike last Christmas and even wrote that down on a piece of paper. A bike duty arrived. How do you explain that then Mr Materialist?
8. I find the belief that Santa is real very comforting. Therefore Santa is real.
9. For all those presents to appear on the same morning like that Santa must be a “necessary entity”. QED.
10. Children are rewarded by Santa if they behave well. Therefore children behave well. Therefore objective childhood morality exists. Therefore Santa.
11. In a multiverse everything that can be, is - therefore Santa is real somewhere.
Other theistic - er, I mean Santa-istic arguments are available
That’s settled then I think.
I wrote my Christmas letter to Santa asking for something really expensive and I didn't get it.
You can ask Santa for something but sometimes the answer is ho ho.
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Apparently though we are looking for a fat male Caucasian.
With a white beard?
Come to think of it, you never see God and Santa in the same room...
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With a white beard?
Come to think of it, you never see God and Santa in the same room...
This guy's a bit too thin in the face and shows no evidence of Coca Cola...
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This guy's a bit too thin in the face and shows no evidence of Coca Cola...
It was painted more than 300 years before Coca Cola existed. Why would you expect evidence of it?
Also, Coca Cola has lot of sugar in it. No doubt he put on weight because part of the sponsorship deal was a lifetime's supply of coke.
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Vlad,
Apparently though we are looking for a fat male Caucasian. Domiciled in the Arctic.
And apparently too (according to the OT) “God” has manifested physically three times as a man, once in a burning bush that was not consumed and four times as an angel. Both your god and Santa are it seems theophanous in character - able to flit in and out of the material at will.
Though many have been found meeting that description all interrogated have found to be impersonating said character.
Just as all interrogations of swans at one time found them to be white. Been a while since you tried the induction fallacy though – welcome back!
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Vlad,
And apparently too (according to the OT) “God” has manifested physically three times as a man, once in a burning bush that was not consumed and four times as an angel. Both your god and Santa are it seems theophanous in character - able to flit in and out of the material at will.
Just as all interrogations of swans at one time found them to be white. Been a while since you tried the induction fallacy though – welcome back!
I think we have to put these biblical manifestations against the belief that Jesus is both Man AND God.
It is the humanity which is detected as physical ( but then there is also the spiritual nature of man to ponder) and the divine which is sensed spiritually rather than physically.
The other revelations appear a little too short to sort out which components are physical or psychological or spiritual.
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Vlad,
I think we have to put these biblical manifestations against the belief that Jesus is both Man AND God.
It is the humanity which is detected as physical ( but then there is also the spiritual nature of man to ponder) and the divine which is sensed spiritually rather than physically.
The other revelations appear a little too short to sort out which components are physical or psychological or spiritual.
You can put anything against anything else you like. The fact remains that there are various narratives that have your god as flitting between material and non-material states, and there are various narratives that have Santa flitting between material and non-material states.
It’s the same claim albeit with different objects, and no amount of incoherent casuistry changes that.
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I think we have to put these biblical manifestations against the belief that Jesus is both Man AND God.
And reject them since the idea that someone is concurrently both human and not human is nonsensical.
It is the humanity which is detected as physical ( but then there is also the spiritual nature of man to ponder) and the divine which is sensed spiritually rather than physically.
A great example of both begging the question, and please describe how spiritual senses actually work and can be investigated and substantiated.
The other revelations appear a little too short to sort out which components are physical or psychological or spiritual.
Perhaps then 'revelations' have insufficient merit to be taken seriously.
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I think we have to put these biblical manifestations against the belief that Jesus is both Man AND God.
It is the humanity which is detected as physical ( but then there is also the spiritual nature of man to ponder) and the divine which is sensed spiritually rather than physically.
The other revelations appear a little too short to sort out which components are physical or psychological or spiritual.
I thought your claim is that Jesus is fully God and fully human. If you are now claiming that his physical manifestation is not God, then you must be asserting that Jesus is not fully God.
Also, you seem to be claiming that Michelangelo didn't know what God looked like and painted a lie on the Sistine Chapel ceiling.
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I thought your claim is that Jesus is fully God and fully human. If you are now claiming that his physical manifestation is not God, then you must be asserting that Jesus is not fully God.
Also, you seem to be claiming that Michelangelo didn't know what God looked like and painted a lie on the Sistine Chapel ceiling.
A person can be both human AND the life and soul of the party.
An artist, like the rest of us registers a physical human but may
not register a party animal.
Michael Angelo was an artist and would have presented us with an image he would not have dreamed that anyone would take as an actual physical God.
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Vlad,
A person can be both human AND the life and soul of the party.
But he’s still the same physical entity remember?
An artist, like the rest of us registers a physical human but may
not register a party animal.
But the artist still portrays the same physical entity regardless of what other properties it may have.
Michael Angelo was an artist and would have presented us with an image he would not have dreamed that anyone would take as an actual physical God.
Why do you think that? In that case though, the graphic artist working for Coca-Cola who put Santa in a red coat and gave him a beard would not have dreamed that anyone would take that as an actual physical Santa either. What’s sauce for the goose and all that…
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A person can be both human AND the life and soul of the party.
The life and soul of every party I have ever been to was fully human.
An artist, like the rest of us registers a physical human but may
not register a party animal.
Michael Angelo was an artist and would have presented us with an image he would not have dreamed that anyone would take as an actual physical God.
You know the mind of Michelangelo? I find that hard to believe. The image is meant to be God. I see no evidence that Michelangelo didn't believe it was an accurate representation.
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The life and soul of every party I have ever been to was fully human.
You know the mind of Michelangelo? I find that hard to believe. The image is meant to be God. I see no evidence that Michelangelo didn't believe it was an accurate representation.
Yes every life and soul of the party is also fully human, but not every human is the life and soul of the party and even those who are both are often not recognised or acknowledged as such.
Michael Angelo would have in all likelihood recognised that God was not a giant man in the catholic faith and that such representations were metaphorical and artistic.
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Vlad,
But he’s still the same physical entity remember?
But who is closest to the mark? The person who recognises this person as the life and soul of the party, the person who thinks they are an insufferable show of, or the autist who merely recognised that this person is making a sound and moving their hands?
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Vlad,
You can put anything against anything else you like. The fact remains that there are various narratives that have your god as flitting between material and non-material states, and there are various narratives that have Santa flitting between material and non-material states.
It’s the same claim albeit with different objects, and no amount of incoherent casuistry changes that.
You are proposing a ‘flit’ between states but the Christian proposal is there is no such ‘flitting’
That Jesus is both physical and divine and since it is Christian proposals being considered we have to include it because that is how it is proposed God operates.
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Vlad
Just as all interrogations of swans at one time found them to be white. Been a while since you tried the induction fallacy though – welcome back!
But there is nothing in the statements”All interrogated have been found not to be the genuine article” which suggests that future interrogations and interrogated will not be Santa. You seem to have lost your touch a bit.
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You are proposing a ‘flit’ between states but the Christian proposal is there is no such ‘flitting’
That Jesus is both physical and divine and since it is Christian proposals being considered we have to include it because that is how it is proposed God operates.
That is just assertion, Vlad: nothing more than that. If this claim is just a 'proposal' then how do you know, as opposed to believe, that this 'proposal' can be verified.
I'll be 'Santa-ing' to a bunch of 6 year olds this afternoon, and even setting aside that I'm not actually 'Santa', the critical faculties of my audience today will not involve me being subjected to any kind of interrogation - it's seasonal fiction that spawns in different formats (such as letters to Santa) - and the adults who are responsible for these kids know that, but for now at least they encourage these kids to have 'faith' in 'Santa'.
But many Christians who accept the 'proposal' you mention as a matter of personal faith are adults who seem to me to be exercising their critical faculties to the same extent as the kids I'll see later today - as in 'not at all', but at least the kids have the excuse of childhood and complete trust in the adults that perpetuate the Santa lies, and I am obviously guilty of that too.
So it seems to me that belief in 'God' and belief in 'Santa' involve equivalent levels of naivety - but at least the youthful 'Santa-ists' tend to abandon the belief as their critical faculties develop.
Ho Ho Ho.
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That is just assertion, Vlad: nothing more than that. If this claim is just a 'proposal' then how do you know, as opposed the believe, that this 'proposal' can be verified.
I'll be 'Santa-ing' to a bunch of 6 year olds this afternoon, and even setting aside that I'm not actually 'Santa', the critical faculties of my audience today will not involve me being subjected to any kind of interrogation - it's seasonal fiction that spawns in different formats (such as letters to Santa) - and the adults who are responsible for these kids know that, but for now at least they encourage these kids to have 'faith' in 'Santa'.
But many Christians who accept the 'proposal' you mention as a matter of personal faith are adults who seem to me to be exercising their critical faculties to the same extent as the kids I'll see later today - as in 'not at all', but at least the kids have the excuse of childhood and complete trust in the adults that perpetuate the Santa lies, and I am obviously guilty of that too.
So it seems to me that belief in 'God' and belief in 'Santa' involve equivalent levels of naivety - but at least the youthful 'Santa-ists' tend to abandon the belief as their critical faculties develop.
Ho Ho Ho.
But Gordon, Hillside proposed that God flits between states....and you remained silent.
He had misrepresented the Christian proposal....and you remained silent.
Therefore I can dismiss your post as partisan.
The equation of Santa and God is horses laugh.
And now......I will remain silent.
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But Gordon, Hillside proposed that God flits between states....and you remained silent.
He had misrepresented the Christian proposal....and you remained silent.
The 'Christian proposal' is so incoherent that all one can do is point that out: that it presents as incoherent nonsense isn't misrepresentation, Vlad - it's a critique.
Therefore I can dismiss your post as partisan.
I think I can cope with that.
The equation of Santa and God is horses laugh.
Perhaps you should try a spot of 'Santa-ing' yourself - to be on the receiving end of mindless devotion to a lie is quite an experience. Beyond the enjoyable 'performance' aspect, it does make one think about how blindingly obvious myth and lies can have real-world currency.
And now......I will remain silent.
Good idea.
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Yes every life and soul of the party is also fully human, but not every human is the life and soul of the party and even those who are both are often not recognised or acknowledged as such.
I get it. God is human.
Michael Angelo would have in all likelihood recognised that God was not a giant man in the catholic faith and that such representations were metaphorical and artistic.
Evidence?
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I get it. God is human.
Evidence?
I'm not sure you do get it although biblically Jesus ascended ( was assumed?) 'Into heaven'. It would be closer to say God was incarnated as Jesus Christ, both his humanity and divinity intact. I might even disagree with you though that humans are an entirely physical entity
Michaelangelo was a Roman Catholic who apparently leant into some Lutheran views. As such He would likely have accepted the biblical declaration that God is spirit and also the creeds.
If you are suggesting that the God represented by Michaelangelo is, an older Jesus then I'd be interested to hear your reasons for that proposal.
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Vlad,
But who is closest to the mark? The person who recognises this person as the life and soul of the party, the person who thinks they are an insufferable show of, or the autist who merely recognised that this person is making a sound and moving their hands?
Irrelevant. Whatever characteristics or behaviours the material person has, they’re still a material person. Your god and Santa on the other hand can, according to their respective stories, flit from material to non-material at will.
Try to remember this - in this respect, the two stories are the same.
You are proposing a ‘flit’ between states but the Christian proposal is there is no such ‘flitting’
That Jesus is both physical and divine and since it is Christian proposals being considered we have to include it because that is how it is proposed God operates.
Yes there is. According to the OT part of your “holy” books, your god was immaterial when he felt like it and then variously a material man, a material burning bush, a material wind, material angels and various other material phenomena when he felt like manifesting as those instead. That’s the flitting part.
But there is nothing in the statements”All interrogated have been found not to be the genuine article” which suggests that future interrogations and interrogated will not be Santa. You seem to have lost your touch a bit.
Wrong again. If not for the inductive reasoning error, what point did you think you were making by telling us that all previous interrogations of supposed Santas had found them to be men in red suits and false beards? What did you think that tells us about whether or not the next interrogation will turn up the real deal instead?
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Michael Angelo would have in all likelihood recognised that God was not a giant man in the catholic faith and that such representations were metaphorical and artistic.
Who is this "Michael Angelo" of whom you speak?
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Vlad,
Irrelevant. Whatever characteristics or behaviours the material person has, they’re still a material person. Your god and Santa on the other hand can, according to their respective stories, flit from material to non-material at will.
Try to remember this - in this respect, the two stories are the same.
Yes there is. According to the OT part of your “holy” books, your god was immaterial when he felt like it and then variously a material man, a material burning bush, a material wind, material angels and various other material phenomena when he felt like manifesting as those instead. That’s the flitting part.
Wrong again. If not for the inductive reasoning error, what point did you think you were making by telling us that all previous interrogations of supposed Santas had found them to be men in red suits and false beards? What did you think that tells us about whether or not the next interrogation will turn up the real deal instead?
There is no suggestion that God is reduced to being merely a burning Bush, an angel or even a human being. Nothing to suggest he changes from being spirit, something explicitly stated in the new Testament. In other words you are wrong about the Christian proposal. You haven't prepared, got it wrong and are just doubling down.
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There is no suggestion that God is reduced to being merely a burning Bush, an angel or even a human being. Nothing to suggest he changes from being spirit, something explicitly stated in the new Testament.
But the NT claims can readily be dismissed as superstitious assertion - due a lack of evidence, imprecise definition or a method to detect this non-human 'spirit' aspect.
In other words you are wrong about the Christian proposal. You haven't prepared, got it wrong and are just doubling down.
Not sure if it is of any import to be accused of being 'wrong' about something that cannot be demonstrated to be 'right' in the first place.
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But the NT claims can readily be dismissed as superstitious assertion - due a lack of evidence, imprecise definition or a method to detect this non-human 'spirit' aspect.
Not sure if it is of any import to be accused of being 'wrong' about something that cannot be demonstrated to be 'right' in the first place.
Yes we know you don't take the proposal seriously, that's old hat. The issue here is Bluehillside' misrepresentation of the proposal.
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Vlad,
There is no suggestion that God is reduced to being merely a burning Bush, an angel or even a human being.
There is no suggestion that Santa is reduced to being merely a hirsute man in a red suit either.
Nothing to suggest he changes from being spirit, something explicitly stated in the new Testament.
Nothing to suggest Santa changes from being a magic entity able to visit every child in the course of one night, as stated in the multiple books and stories.
In other words you are wrong about the Christian proposal. You haven't prepared, got it wrong and are just doubling down.
In other words, you’re straw manning again. If “the Christian proposal” is a god flitting at will into physical form but somehow without simultaneously relinquishing his non-material self, then the Santa proposal is the same thing. Why would you double down on thinking that when Santa is in human form he also stops being magic?
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Vlad,
Yes we know you don't take the proposal seriously, that's old hat. The issue here is Bluehillside' misrepresentation of the proposal.
Your straw manning of what Bluehillside actually says isn't Bluehillside's misrepresentation. Please stop lying about this.
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Vlad,
Your straw manning of what Bluehillside actually says isn't Bluehillside's misrepresentation. Please stop lying about this.
I'm not.
Your telling me it's flit and I'm telling you that's sh, an error on your part. Flit completely misrepresents revelation of God, God is never material then spirit then material.And there's the end of it.
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Vlad,
I'm not.
Your telling me it's flit and I'm telling you that's sh, an error on your part. Flit completely misrepresents revelation of God, God is never material then spirit then material.And there's the end of it.
You are. I did not say that (according to some books) when your god flits into having material form he doesn't magically retain his non-material form at the same time (presumably he'd have to in fact because a purely material god would have no way back to magic land). Your straw man is to tell me that I did say that.
Oh, and according to the Santa stories the same is true of St Nick too. QED
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All the fairy tales get confusing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgr9v1ppglo
The saint Nicholas...is what Father Christmas is about remembering.
He fed the poorer families leaving gifts of food and clothing in Christmas morning.
He did not have to discuss Santa Claus he could have told them about St Nick and how the tradition has carried on,
Poor Mites, sobbing.