Religion and Ethics Forum

Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Sassy on February 20, 2025, 12:13:17 PM

Title: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Sassy on February 20, 2025, 12:13:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9nflLFdX_Q



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Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Sassy on February 20, 2025, 12:22:25 PM
Please listen and discuss...
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: bluehillside Retd. on February 20, 2025, 02:50:47 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmyuE0NpNgE
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Alan Burns on February 25, 2025, 05:27:25 PM
Prophesies regarding the increasing persecution of Christians and the anti Christian bias from the media are certainly coming true.
Just watch this report on the beheading of 70 Christians by ISIS in the Congo - and no mention of it in our news media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pet2O-ltjmg
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: bluehillside Retd. on February 25, 2025, 05:34:05 PM
AB,

Quote
Prophesies regarding the increasing persecution of Christians and the anti Christian bias from the media are certainly coming true.
Just watch this report on the beheading of 70 Christians by ISIS in the Congo - and no mention of it in our news media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pet2O-ltjmg

No they’re not. Terrible as this story is, it’s not evidence that a supposed prophecy has come true.   
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Steve H on February 27, 2025, 09:18:18 AM
Prophesies regarding the increasing persecution of Christians and the anti Christian bias from the media are certainly coming true.
Just watch this report on the beheading of 70 Christians by ISIS in the Congo - and no mention of it in our news media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pet2O-ltjmg
Christians have always been persecuted - and, let's face it, persecutors. So have followers of other religions and sects. I don't think there's any evidence that it is greater proportionately now than of yore.
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Outrider on February 27, 2025, 09:35:05 AM
Christians have always been persecuted - and, let's face it, persecutors. So have followers of other religions and sects. I don't think there's any evidence that it is greater proportionately now than of yore.

It's almost like persecution of the out-group is a feature of tribal social constructs like religion....

O.
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Steve H on February 27, 2025, 09:37:03 AM
No mention of it in our news media?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/70-christians-beheaded-in-african-country-by-isis-aligned-militants-groups-say-world-mostly-silent/ar-AA1zzL7S
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/isislinked-militants-butcher-70-christians-in-congo-global-leaders-urged-to-act-11740248874419.html
https://www.newsweek.com/christians-beheaded-congo-drc-2033864
The story remains unverified, which might explain why major news media are not reporting it yet.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2025/02/24/congo-70-christians-beheaded/
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: bluehillside Retd. on February 27, 2025, 10:20:23 AM
SteveH,

Quote
Christians have always been persecuted - and, let's face it, persecutors. So have followers of other religions and sects. I don't think there's any evidence that it is greater proportionately now than of yore.

AB has fallen victim to the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. Someone back in the day says "Christians will be persecuted", and then when eventually an episode occurs (assuming for now that it has) you can claim that the prophecy came true. It's a basic error in reasoning.     
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Sassy on February 27, 2025, 06:00:06 PM
AB,

No they’re not. Terrible as this story is, it’s not evidence that a supposed prophecy has come true.

Well did we have a suggested one monetary system called the Euro or not?
It was foretold...is that not a prophesy come true?

We are realistic or we are not. But without realism we have no way accepting truth.
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Sassy on February 27, 2025, 06:06:25 PM
No mention of it in our news media?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/70-christians-beheaded-in-african-country-by-isis-aligned-militants-groups-say-world-mostly-silent/ar-AA1zzL7S
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/isislinked-militants-butcher-70-christians-in-congo-global-leaders-urged-to-act-11740248874419.html
https://www.newsweek.com/christians-beheaded-congo-drc-2033864
The story remains unverified, which might explain why major news media are not reporting it yet.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2025/02/24/congo-70-christians-beheaded/

Gene Hackman Updates: Actor, Wife Betsy Arakawa's Deaths Ruled 'Suspicious'

Do they have a connecton?  He was at his American home.  Is, all this infiltration of countries by ISIS members like the Trojon horse where they infiltrait different countries to attack from the inside?
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Sassy on February 27, 2025, 06:08:55 PM
SteveH,

AB has fallen victim to the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. Someone back in the day says "Christians will be persecuted", and then when eventually an episode occurs (assuming for now that it has) you can claim that the prophecy came true. It's a basic error in reasoning.   

Christians, are they not the Jews of the second covenant through the Messiah? If you persecute a Christian, isn't it the same as persecuting a Jew, one of Gods people?
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: bluehillside Retd. on February 27, 2025, 06:20:22 PM
Sassy,

Quote
Well did we have a suggested one monetary system called the Euro or not?
It was foretold...is that not a prophesy come true?

We are realistic or we are not. But without realism we have no way accepting truth.

No. If you want to claim something to be prophetic than that claim must pass certain basic tests. “A great city will fall” for example cannot be a prophecy because it lacks specificity (many cities have failed), non-inevitability (thus, “it will get dark at night time” isn’t a prophecy either), a time line (pretty much anything will happen if you wait long enough for it to happen) etc.

Show me where in the OT or the NT it says, “And Lo in the early 21st century a company named after a fruit will invent a portable communication device and it shall be called an iphone” or similar and then we can have a reality-based conversation about supposed prophecies.         
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Gordon on February 27, 2025, 08:54:27 PM
Gene Hackman Updates: Actor, Wife Betsy Arakawa's Deaths Ruled 'Suspicious'

Do they have a connecton?  He was at his American home.  Is, all this infiltration of countries by ISIS members like the Trojon horse where they infiltrait different countries to attack from the inside?

Sassy

And you evidence for these specific claims is what exactly?
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Sassy on February 28, 2025, 08:11:19 AM
Sassy,

No. If you want to claim something to be prophetic than that claim must pass certain basic tests. “A great city will fall” for example cannot be a prophecy because it lacks specificity (many cities have failed), non-inevitability (thus, “it will get dark at night time” isn’t a prophecy either), a time line (pretty much anything will happen if you wait long enough for it to happen) etc.

Show me where in the OT or the NT it says, “And Lo in the early 21st century a company named after a fruit will invent a portable communication device and it shall be called an iphone” or similar and then we can have a reality-based conversation about supposed prophecies.       

What of, we look at the above another way.  How many cities are in the world? Yet someone names one city to fall and it does...what is the probabilities of that happening.

[4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

How much has travel and knowledge increased since the writing of the book of Daniel?  No universities or schools so where did the increase of knowledge come from and travel.
you can read the bible and you can have the same knowledge as I have found. You think that knowledge has  not increased?


Whether we believe in God, or not. We have to study the words of God to know what to expect and to discuss the ultimate truth in knowledge.

Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Sassy on February 28, 2025, 08:20:33 AM
Sassy

And you evidence for these specific claims is what exactly?
https://www.nbcboston.com/entertainment/entertainment-news/gene-hackman-and-betsy-arakawa-death-investigation-911-call-revealed/3644289/

Gordon,

What type of proof do you need. What happened here? Accident or Murder? We wait and we see.
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Maeght on February 28, 2025, 08:27:37 AM
Whether we believe in God, or not. We have to study the words of God to know what to expect and to discuss the ultimate truth in knowledge.

Why would someone who doesn't believe in God study the supposed words of God?
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Sassy on February 28, 2025, 08:53:59 AM
Why would someone who doesn't believe in God study the supposed words of God?

You of all people, Maeght,
Really believe that you can make an informed decision without reading the book of God about what you believe?

I believe you have to study the two sides to make a truthful decision.
As a Christian, I studied other religions books but I never felt at any time they were correct. Open heart and mind takes us nearer the truth.
You have to find God and have a living relationship with him.
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Maeght on February 28, 2025, 08:58:48 AM
You of all people, Maeght,

Really believe that you can make an informed decision without reading the book of God about what you believe?

I believe you have to study the two sides to make a truthful decision.
As a Christian, I studied other religions books but I never felt at any time they were correct. Open heart and mind takes us nearer the truth.
You have to find God and have a living relationship with him.

I know what the claims are. I have looked into them. I don't accept them and am not convinced by the arguments presented for the existence of God or gods. Nor have I ever had an experience which I might consider was experiencing God.
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Nearly Sane on February 28, 2025, 10:02:31 AM
https://www.nbcboston.com/entertainment/entertainment-news/gene-hackman-and-betsy-arakawa-death-investigation-911-call-revealed/3644289/

Gordon,

What type of proof do you need. What happened here? Accident or Murder? We wait and we see.
    None of  that has any relevance    to links to ISIS
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Dicky Underpants on February 28, 2025, 10:26:13 AM
Well did we have a suggested one monetary system called the Euro or not?
It was foretold...is that not a prophesy come true?



Is that the Mark of the Beast? Well, we'll have to wait till everyone has the Euro microchip embedded in their foreheads.
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: bluehillside Retd. on February 28, 2025, 10:31:52 AM
Sassy,

Quote
What of, we look at the above another way.  How many cities are in the world? Yet someone names one city to fall and it does...what is the probabilities of that happening.

[4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

A few years ago Derren Brown wrote to someone to predict the winner of a horse race the following weekend. Sure enough, the horse won. Then he did it again, and the next horse won too. Then he did it again and again and again, each time apparently predicting correctly the winner. Eventually the person receiving the letters was persuaded that DB knew what he was doing, and so was about to bet a large amount of money on the next "prophecy" – only to find that the next horse lost.

So what happened? What DB actually did was to write to hundreds of people predicting different winners of the first race. The following week he wrote again, but only to the winners from the previous week. He did this over and over again until there was only one person left who thought DB could predict the winners.

Do you see the point here? If you seriously think the fall of Babylon was predicted in the Bible not only do you have to find a quote that names that city specifically and tells us when it would fall, but also you have to eliminate all the other prophecies that didn’t come good to be sure that the Babylon one wasn’t right just as a matter of dumb luck.

Good luck with it though.         

Quote
How much has travel and knowledge increased since the writing of the book of Daniel?  No universities or schools so where did the increase of knowledge come from and travel.
you can read the bible and you can have the same knowledge as I have found. You think that knowledge has  not increased?

Of course knowledge has expanded. That’s what happens when people find stuff out and talk about it. As prophecies go, that's up there with “and lo, it will get dark at night time”.   

Quote
Whether we believe in God, or not. We have to study the words of God to know what to expect and to discuss the ultimate truth in knowledge.

This makes no sense. If I don’t believe in god, what makes you think I’ll take seriously your claim that we “have to study the words of God”? 
Title: Re: David Wilkerson book The Vision.
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 08, 2025, 10:52:58 AM
https://www.nbcboston.com/entertainment/entertainment-news/gene-hackman-and-betsy-arakawa-death-investigation-911-call-revealed/3644289/

Gordon,

What type of proof do you need. What happened here? Accident or Murder? We wait and we see.
No ISIS involved

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c89ydyjewjlo