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General Discussion / Re: The Weather
« Last post by Nearly Sane on April 04, 2025, 12:54:58 PM »Bit colder but beautiful
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Theism and Atheism / Re: Importance of religions
« Last post by ProfessorDavey on April 04, 2025, 10:45:44 AM »It is beyond doubt that societal and cultural norms associated with ritual, practice, accepted norms etc have been instrumental in the development of human societies. This is largely because human babies/children take so long to develop and there is a need to create a safe space around then to allow them to learn and develop the skills necessary for survival. If humans popped out and had adult-like attributes within months (as is the case for many other species) then I doubt these societal norms would have been necessary or would have developed.
Last 10000 years is good enough. That is when settled communities started forming.
My point is very simple. Developing a sense of kinship is impossible for groups divided by geography, racial differences, language differences and other social and cultural differences. Our animal instincts and mutual suspicions will make it near impossible.
Religion has managed to do just that. It has integrated people across geography, language, race and other differences.
About the future, I am assuming and hoping that certain religions will get merged together to form just a couple of religious groups which will also eventually disappear and people around the world will have just one philosophical basis for their goals and to explain the purpose and meaning of life and death.
However I think we need to consider what exactly is meant by religion - it is clearly a subset of complex societal structures, with (I guess) the key element being some reference to the supernatural. So I guess the question is whether this overlay which turns a complex societal structure into a complex religious societal structure is necessary. As you've accepted the earliest structures did not appear to have this religious overlay, and you also seem to think that in the future we might have very complex societal structures but without religious overlay.
So the question is whether this religious overlay (linked to the supernatural) was necessary for the development of human societies from about 10,000 years ago to now or whether it was incidental. There is certainly some strong evidence that many ancient civilisations had a strong atheist element to them, such that belief or otherwise in gods wasn't really an important aspect holding those societies together.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/disbelieve-it-or-not-ancient-history-suggests-that-atheism-is-as-natural-to-humans-as-religion#
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Sports, Hobbies & Interests / Re: Wordle
« Last post by Aruntraveller on April 04, 2025, 10:37:56 AM »Wordle 1,385 5/6
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜🟨⬜
⬜🟩⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
That is a difficult one.
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜🟨⬜
⬜🟩⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
That is a difficult one.
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Politics & Current Affairs / Re: Elon Musk: tech wizard or numpty?
« Last post by Nearly Sane on April 04, 2025, 10:24:01 AM »25
Theism and Atheism / Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Last post by ProfessorDavey on April 04, 2025, 10:13:19 AM »Once again, just realising what you are or what you aren't, isn't a conversion no matter how profound you try to make it.What on earth are you on about - I was challenging you on the nonsense notion of a cultural theist - I don't think that makes sense, a cultural theist is ... err ... an atheist (unlike the notion of a cultural christian or a cultural muslim etc).
But it is actually you, rather than me, who puts great store in 'conversion' - with you claims of 'converting' from atheism to christianity, although interestingly you never seem to mention your 'conversion' from the christianity of your upbringing to atheism.
I don't think I've ever talked about a conversion in relation to my journey - indeed I go out of my way to talk about 'recognising' that I was atheist rather than 'converting' to atheism. Why, because if I am honest with myself I don't think I ever really believed in god so I was never a theist, rather for a while I was an atheist in denial. Once I moved beyond that denial life made an awful lot more sense and I developed a much more acute sense of ethics.
To be honest, from my perspective you don't come across as someone who was genuinely atheist, rather someone who for a while kicked back at the religion of your upbringing - a theist in denial, so to speak. You will no doubt deny this (see what I did there). That you regularly exalt CS Lewis as a kind of role model is a bit of a give away. Being 'angry at god for not existing' isn't something an atheist would ever be (how can you be angry at something you don't believe exists) - nope that is the comment of a theist in denial.
However you are reducing atheism to some state even a paving slab can be in and at the end of the day I think you actually believe that the universe is or will be explicable without recourse to a God.Well atheism is merely a lack of believe in the existence of god or gods. And yes of course I consider that the universe is explicable without recourse to god - not because I am an atheist, but because there is no credible evidence to suggest the need for a god to explain the universe. Physics does it rather nicely.
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Theism and Atheism / Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Last post by Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2025, 09:46:50 AM »What on earth is a cultural theist?!?Once again, just realising what you are or what you aren't, isn't a conversion no matter how profound you try to make it.
I understand the notion of cultural christianity as christianity involves not just belief but also customs, rituals, architecture, music etc etc - so it is perfectly possible for someone to enjoy, appreciate, participate in, be emotionally moved by those elements, but without actually believing in the faith tenets of christianity - hence cultural christianity.
But theism isn't like that - theism and atheism are simply believe and lack of belief in god or gods. There is no cultural overlay they are just belief/lack of belief. So someone isn't able to participate in the cultural aspects of theism (unlike religion) as there are none. So a cultural theist would be someone who doesn't believe in god but does participate in/appreciate the cultural aspects of theism. Oops but there are no cultural aspects of theism (unlike religion) so this simply boils down to someone who doesn't believe in god ... which is ... err ... an atheist.
However you are reducing atheism to some state even a paving slab can be in and at the end of the day I think you actually believe that the universe is or will be explicable without recourse to a God.
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Theism and Atheism / Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Last post by ProfessorDavey on April 04, 2025, 09:20:12 AM »A cultural theist.What on earth is a cultural theist?!?
I understand the notion of cultural christianity as christianity involves not just belief but also customs, rituals, architecture, music etc etc - so it is perfectly possible for someone to enjoy, appreciate, participate in, be emotionally moved by those elements, but without actually believing in the faith tenets of christianity - hence cultural christianity.
But theism isn't like that - theism and atheism are simply believe and lack of belief in god or gods. There is no cultural overlay they are just belief/lack of belief. So someone isn't able to participate in the cultural aspects of theism (unlike religion) as there are none. So a cultural theist would be someone who doesn't believe in god but does participate in/appreciate the cultural aspects of theism. Oops but there are no cultural aspects of theism (unlike religion) so this simply boils down to someone who doesn't believe in god ... which is ... err ... an atheist.
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Theism and Atheism / Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Last post by Gordon on April 04, 2025, 09:10:35 AM »I was actually trying to probe your antitheism for it's rational basis.Over optimistic of me, I'm sure.
Also a waste of your time, since I'm not an antitheist.
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Theism and Atheism / Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Last post by Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2025, 09:08:53 AM »Do you ever take time to actually read and think about what people have actually said as opposed to what, in your fevered imagination, you'd prefer them to have said? Not only did I not say what you are inferring that I meant, I'd be ashamed of myself if that were ever my stance.I was actually trying to probe your antitheism for it's rational basis.Over optimistic of me, I'm sure.
Correct - we have different personal histories, but so what though? Atheists are people who don't hold beliefs about 'God/s': that is all that is involved, and you've been told this many times already.
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Theism and Atheism / Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Last post by Gordon on April 04, 2025, 08:19:13 AM »Interesting that you see a significant difference between people based on whether they are theist or atheist and the prejudices that either cause that perception or arise from it. It sounds like you might be inferring mental and/or moral inferiority in theists, for instance.
Do you ever take time to actually read and think about what people have actually said as opposed to what, in your fevered imagination, you'd prefer them to have said? Not only did I not say what you are inferring that I meant, I'd be ashamed of myself if that were ever my stance.
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Having said that .May I offer another difference between yourself and me.
You have always been an atheist and I have been an atheist and a theist...unless you want to start on 'No true atheist'.
Correct - we have different personal histories, but so what though? Atheists are people who don't hold beliefs about 'God/s': that is all that is involved, and you've been told this many times already.