'I identify as black' says white Caucasian

[OH MY WORLD!]

Stupid link Shaker, but no surprise it coming from you. So you Euros painted Jesus looking more like Thor than Saddam Hussein.  Couldn't care less but it does show where Canada and the USA got it's racism from.

[Harrowby Hall]

Stupid link Shaker, but no surprise it coming from you. So you Euros painted Jesus looking more like Thor than Saddam Hussein.  Couldn't care less but it does show where Canada and the USA got it's racism from.

Poor Johnny. He just doesn't get irony.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Poor little Harrow thinks Americans talk just like some author writes. Too funny that Harrow.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Shaker identifies as Sooty.

[Aruntraveller]

Shaker identifies as Sooty.

Presumably you are posting in drag whilst squinting at your watch.

[BashfulAnthony]

I identify as the black heavyweight champion of the world - Deontay Wilder (WBC, only)

[Shaker]

You wish 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Shaker identifies as Sooty.

Presumably you are posting in drag whilst squinting at your watch.

You said that as if it was a bad thing.

[Aruntraveller]

Shaker identifies as Sooty.

Presumably you are posting in drag whilst squinting at your watch.

You said that as if it was a bad thing.

Not me. There are too many photos.

[jeremyp]

Really ippy? Still inclined to be a very racist country, and it's cultural? Well of course there is racism, that will never go away. But unlike you, they voted for a black president, not once but twice.

Check out this photo

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/Ann_Dunham_with_father_and_children.jpg

The man on the extreme left is Obama's maternal grandfather.  The woman is his mother and the girl is his half sister.  Wikipedia says Obama was raised by his mother.  How black is he really?

[BashfulAnthony]

You wish 

I'm certainly heavyweight champion of our house:  except for the dog, that, is.   

[OH MY WORLD!]

Oh Jeremy, you and that Euro superiority thingy. You want to know how black he really is. Well Herr Jeremy, perhaps take a look at his life, his careers, where he went to church, charities he has championed and so forth and then perhaps ask him or read one of his books or papers. How black is he really? Too funny you. You know in the native culture it wasn't who your father is that matters, it matters who your mother is. My people, the Metis, have fought the Brits and white Canadians for decades for recognition of who we are really. Finally that old Euro superiority thingy is just about dead around here.

[jeremyp]

Oh Jeremy, you and that Euro superiority thingy. You want to know how black he really is. Well Herr Jeremy, perhaps take a look at his life, his careers, where he went to church, charities he has championed and so forth and then perhaps ask him or read one of his books or papers. How black is he really? Too funny you. You know in the native culture it wasn't who your father is that matters, it matters who your mother is. My people, the Metis, have fought the Brits and white Canadians for decades for recognition of who we are really. Finally that old Euro superiority thingy is just about dead around here.

What are you warbling on about?

[OH MY WORLD!]

Ok Jeremy, little buddy, take this on board then. Genealogist can't all agree on the percent but anywhere from 30 to 70% of black Americans have white in their ancestry. So how black are they really? See how just plain stunted your dumb ass question was about how black Obama is? No? Well you would if you were smart.

[Sassy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33156905

Rachel Dolezal, the daughter of two Caucasian parents, and adoptive sister of 4 Black American siblings, is a high-profile race activist in the States.  In an interview with NBC News, she says that she had started to identify as black when she was about 5.

This item - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33159940 - looks at her background and the context in which she sits.

Do people believe that - in the long run - a controversy like this will help the Black American cause, or hinder it?  Does having an advocate from outside of one's own community have a greater impact on the rest of society than having member of the majority community like Rachel self-identify as part of the minority community?

Well, is this thread not fueling the fire?

[jeremyp]

Ok Jeremy, little buddy, take this on board then. Genealogist can't all agree on the percent but anywhere from 30 to 70% of black Americans have white in their ancestry. So how black are they really? See how just plain stunted your dumb ass question was about how black Obama is? No? Well you would if you were smart.

No.  It's not a stupid question.  Barack Obama is judged back purely on his skin colour.  Culturally and genetically he is significantly white.

It just shows how bullshit this black / white characterisation really is.

[jeremyp]

I heard this on the PM programme on R4 this evening

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05y178z

The relevant bit is from 48:20

[Harrowby Hall]

I heard this on the PM programme on R4 this evening

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05y178z

The relevant bit is from 48:20

I have just listened to the clip. I found it moving and sad. The woman concerned has my very best wishes and hopes.

But she is not really in the same category as Rachel Dolezal. The woman in the clip is black but was reared in an all white environment. As she says she is culturally white. And as Jeremyp has stated Barack Obama is similarly culturally white (although his background and childhood were rather complicated - involving a significant period growing up in Indonesia).

Rachel Dolezal is similarly culturally white - there have been significan black influences in her life but that does not change her cultural identity. She appears to have seized her black identity.

[jeremyp]

Rachel Dolezal is similarly culturally white - there have been significan black influences in her life but that does not change her cultural identity. She appears to have seized her black identity.

Bruce Jenner was similarly culturally and biologically a man but seems to have received much less criticism for his transition to being Caitlyn Jenner.  Of course, she was more honest about it, but the analogy is there.

[Harrowby Hall]

Rachel Dolezal is similarly culturally white - there have been significan black influences in her life but that does not change her cultural identity. She appears to have seized her black identity.

Bruce Jenner was similarly culturally and biologically a man but seems to have received much less criticism for his transition to being Caitlyn Jenner.  Of course, she was more honest about it, but the analogy is there.

Sexual identity appears to be a very complex interaction between genetic, congenital, developmental and environmental influences, both pre- and post-parturition. The pre-parturition enviromental influences may possibly include maternal hormonal balance. Post-parturition may involve sensitive periods when the infant is exposed to specific stimuli. (An unrelated example is language - if a child is not exposed to language before about 18 months of age it will never develop the capacity to use language.)

"Race" - in the sense of visible morphological variations between one isolated group of people and another appear to be of less complex, genetic origin.

I understand the use of the analogy but suspect it may not be as useful as it may appear at first glance.

[Udayana]

Obviously "race" is used in a much wider sense than "visible morphological variations between one isolated group of people and another"  - it includes cultural outlook, identity, history, class/caste, intelligence etc etc. Look at the South Carolina murder case - what on earth is that about? - not some people having darker skin than others.

[OH MY WORLD!]

I agree Jeremy that it is BS. And your question asking how black is he, is an example of such stupidity. I don't think you have the smarts to tell us that he is significantly white culturally. I don't believe this white culture you put on him is a white culture any of you whites would recognize.
Obama identifies himself as being African American. But his African American culture/identity is not one recognized or experienced by most African Americans. But who am I to say you can't identify that way Mr. President, cause your mother is white and your father was black and did not come from the black experience of slavery? Should I tell the president to identify something else cause his heritage comes out of Kansas and Kenya?

Stupid to ask how black is he really Jeremy. And really, really, stupid to try and tell us about his cultural identity. Stop digging that hole!

[Harrowby Hall]

Obviously "race" is used in a much wider sense than "visible morphological variations between one isolated group of people and another"  - it includes cultural outlook, identity, history, class/caste, intelligence etc etc. Look at the South Carolina murder case - what on earth is that about? - not some people having darker skin than others.

Have I denied that? I said  ""Race" - in the sense of ... "    I am just trying to use the term in its simplest manifestation.

I am trying to look at the psychobiological variables during  pre-parturition, neonatal and childhood development which might be responsible for forming someone's perception of what sex he or she should be. To the best of my knowledge the factors which determine the physiological determinants of "race" are settled at conception.

I am well aware that there many more factors than physiology which determine race and racial identity. I just don't think that these come from the same endocrinological and psychodevelopmental sources as those responsible for sexual identity.