Girls in labs

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Well, his apology was ""I'm really, really sorry I caused any offence, that's awful. I certainly didn't mean that. I just meant to be honest, actually."

And he was said he was honest about the part that he had had trouble with girls and fallen in love with someone in the lab and they had fallen in love with him - which was all the bit before he said "Now seriously" and praised women scientists.

So I understand that to mean he was apologising for his crass joke about girl in labs causing offence.

[Nearly Sane]

The problem with the apology is that it doesn't seem to address any of the remarks that are nub I.e. single sex labs and the crying and then goes with this 'I just meant to be honest' line which then reaffirms it. If what has been reported as to the conversation UCL had with him is true, they really were arseholes.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I understood his apology to mean the single-sex labs comment was a joke - so he was apologising that his joke caused offence, but he meant only the part where he said he had fallen in love with people in the lab and they had fallen in love with him. His apology mentioned nothing about reaffirming or meaning the part about single-sex labs.

If he says he was making a joke at a lunch toast, I would take that to mean he did not seriously think that there should be single sex labs, given the context of everything he has done for women scientists and his serious comments following the joke he made at the toast where he praised women scientists.

[Nearly Sane]

I think that is reading a lot into the apology and twisting the words to an extent. It doesn't say I didn't mean any of it. It just affirms one part of it and then says didn't mean to cause offence. Perhaps the thought the rest of it was so ludicrous that he didn't have to apologise for it, but there is nothing in the apology that makes that clear.


It's a strange world, you can win a Nobel prize and I doubt if more than a couple of people on here would know of you but you make an emotionally incontinent no I at a toast in Korea and suddenly your name is known and mud .

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Obviously I disagree with you and don't think my view of his apology is twisting the words.

The words that were tweeted and he was castigated:

“Let me tell you about my trouble with girls,”

“Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry.

“Perhaps we should make separate labs for boys and girls?”

His apology then said he meant the part that he fell in love with people in the lab and they fell in love with him. Seems very straight-forward to me to understand that to mean he did not mean the part about them crying when criticised and making separate labs for boys and girls. At least that's the way I've grown up using English.

I think certain female journalists with a particular agenda were putting a particular spin on his comments by omitting the part where he said "now seriously" and praising women scientists. And the female scientists who actually work in the labs exposed the female journalists' agenda when they emailed words of support to Tim Hunt and came out to publicly thank him for all the support he has shown female scientists during his career.

Glad to see the female journalist was exposed for lying by omission and trying to smear Tim Hunt, and that Tim Hunt got his good name back as far as the public are concerned.   

[Udayana]

I've no doubt that his original remarks were not meant to be taken seriously and he is indeed a well meaning good chap all round.

I heard his "apology" on the Today programme the morning after the "twitter storm" - I can't now remember the wording he used, but really all he managed was to dig an even bigger hole for himself. Even if the original reports of his comments were slanted by the feminist reporter, he is obviously unable to think straight or express himself sensibly on the issues involved.

Since then Dawkins et al have come out to support his freedom of expression and protesting against the "social media lynch mob" and UCL etc: but what the heck is twitter storm but a  mass of individuals using their rights to express their responses to events or comments?

[wigginhall]

If somebody had said that the trouble with black people in labs, is that they eat watermelon and roll their eyes, but this is a joke, and I support black students, I wonder how the response would go.   

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You're probably right - he is not media savvy. But he has demonstrably been good for female scientists' careers - hence they came out in support of him. Presumably those female scientists found him a lot more helpful to their career than the female journalists who tried to smear him or the people on Twitter.

I support the person who has advanced the career of female scientists. I kind of ignored the media storm - Twitter isn't exactly a good place to go to for information, given the limitations on the amount of characters. It's just a self-publicity tool - and the female journalist achieved what she set out to do, publicise herself.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

If somebody had said that the trouble with black people in labs, is that they eat watermelon and roll their eyes, but this is a joke, and I support black students, I wonder how the response would go.

He apologised for his offensive joke about his trouble with girls.

Do black people eat watermelon and roll their eyes in labs? Have you personally experienced that?

[wigginhall]

If somebody had said that the trouble with black people in labs, is that they eat watermelon and roll their eyes, but this is a joke, and I support black students, I wonder how the response would go.

He apologised for his offensive joke about his trouble with girls.

Do black people eat watermelon and roll their eyes in labs? Have you personally experienced that?

Well, my hypothetical person states that he has experienced watermelon and eye-rolling, and also apologizes for his jokes about black people.  What now? 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

If somebody had said that the trouble with black people in labs, is that they eat watermelon and roll their eyes, but this is a joke, and I support black students, I wonder how the response would go.

He apologised for his offensive joke about his trouble with girls.

Do black people eat watermelon and roll their eyes in labs? Have you personally experienced that?

Well, my hypothetical person states that he has experienced watermelon and eye-rolling, and also apologizes for his jokes about black people.  What now?

I don't see the 2 jokes as being the same. I guess the response would depend on how much people could relate to that joke as being an accurate description of black people's behaviour in labs. I think a lot of people in the workplace could relate to men and women falling in love at work and women crying when criticised at work and that being disruptive to the work, so they could get the un-PC joke.

Having never seen a black person eating watermelon at work or rolling their eyes, I can't relate to that joke. Also I am not sure why eating watermelon and rolling eyes is a problem in a lab - unless the person claims it was eaten when the black scientist is supposed to be working i.e. outside of normal lunch break times? And maybe the seeds contaminated the results. I think there needs to be an element of affectionate truth in a joke for it to be taken as a crass joke rather than just an expression of bigotry.

One of my best friends from school has a PhD in Chemistry - she is black - works in a research lab, but I don't think I have seen her eat watermelon and i am not sure what you mean by rolling eyes. She is good at sport - maybe the joke would have seemed more like Tim Hunt's crass joke if the person making the joke had brought the stereotype about black people being athletes rather than the watermelon angle.

[Nearly Sane]

Just to note 'grown up English' is a nice way of poisoning the well - and that is only a doffing of the hat to the tactic, Gabriella.

Maybe in the end there is some good in this, I know, it's a difficult sell but bear with me. Yes, it has been unpleasant for Tim Hunt but he is now well known, which, despite the Nobel Prize, he was not before. He could now use the fame or infamity to actively promote women in science. Indeed perhaps a media savvy university might want to give him an honorary position on the understanding of that.

In addition there has been lots of discussion about science and the whole #distractinglysexy thing was about women just doing the job.

There is a stereotype of a 'scientist' being a middle aged white bloke in a white coat, this can be used to break that down.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Sorry NS, not getting the comment about "grown up English" being a tactic - went straight over my head.

I said that is the way I have "grown up using English" as in that is the way I would understand language.

So when Tim Hunt said on the Today programme that the remarks were "intended as a light-hearted, ironic comment" but had been "interpreted deadly seriously by my audience".

And then went on to say "I did mean the part about...." I would understand that to mean that he did not mean his other light-hearted comments that preceded "Now seriously".

As to your second point, I agree and so apparently does Tim Hunt, according to the Guardian article I linked to earlier, which wrote:

However, he did acknowledge that his “idiotic joke” had touched a nerve. “My comments have brought to the surface the anger and frustration of a great many women in science whose careers have been blighted by chauvinism and discrimination,” he said. “If any good is to come from this miserable affair, it should be that the scientific community starts to acknowledge this anger, recognise the problem and move a lot faster to remove the remaining barriers.”

 

 

[Nearly Sane]

Taking up a point on another thread, I would just like to say thank you to Gabriella, as  I really enjoy posting with you.
The 'grown up English' comment is just based around the idea that it immediately implies the other person is using non grown up language

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Thanks to you too - it's fun and interesting to have discussions with someone who almost has the same view of religion as me even though you are an atheist and I am not.

[Nearly Sane]

We are Jock Tamson' s bairns