Author Topic: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?  (Read 81186 times)

Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #475 on: July 31, 2015, 09:56:12 PM »
No.
Yes.
Quote
You are evading the issue.

Not in the slightest - you are, the issue being that you stated:

Quote from: Bashful Anthony
I have been "answered," but not honestly.  All I get is waffle.  What is the honest reason (or reasons) atheists blather on in this forum, and others? I'll keep asking until someone tells the truth.

I asked you on what basis you make these claims. You didn't answer this because you can't.

Quote
I'll throw it back at you.   I ask you again:  why do you post, year in and year out, asking the same old questions about theism?   Indeed, why does it bother you, as it clearly seems to judging by the volume of post on the subject, over the years?
You've had this question answered - by me at least - numerous times every time that you've asked it. I shouldn't have to repeat myself this many times. You allege that the answers you've received are dishonest, but such a statement only flies if you can demonstrate what the "actual" answer really is, i.e. if you have the evidence that demonstrates dishonesty. To determine dishonesty - that's conscious and deliberate deceit, remember - you need to be able to show what the honest bit is by comparison. You don't have such evidence because it doesn't exist: I know it, you know it. Nevertheless, since you're a big one for playing ridiculous games, I'll ask one more time: what do you think the "actual" answer really is and how do you claim to know it?

This is what's being evaded, and I'm not the one doing it.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 10:06:47 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #476 on: July 31, 2015, 10:13:38 PM »
No.
Yes.
Quote
You are evading the issue.

Not in the slightest - you are, the issue being that you stated:

Quote from: Bashful Anthony
I have been "answered," but not honestly.  All I get is waffle.  What is the honest reason (or reasons) atheists blather on in this forum, and others? I'll keep asking until someone tells the truth.

I asked you on what basis you make these claims. You didn't answer this because you can't.

Quote
I'll throw it back at you.   I ask you again:  why do you post, year in and year out, asking the same old questions about theism?   Indeed, why does it bother you, as it clearly seems to judging by the volume of post on the subject, over the years?
You've had this question answered - by me at least - numerous times every time that you've asked it. I shouldn't have to repeat myself this many times. You allege that the answers you've received are dishonest, but such a statement only flies if you can demonstrate what the "actual" answer really is, i.e. if you have the evidence that demonstrates dishonesty. You don't have such evidence because it doesn't exist: I know it, you know it. Nevertheless, since you're a big one for playing ridiculous games, I'll ask one more time: what do you think the "actual" answer really is and how do you claim to know it?

This is what's being evaded, and I'm not the one doing it.

As usual, best form of defence is attack!  You are the one on here, among others, who obsess about something you don't even believe exists.  You make silly pretences that you are really interested in theists and why they believe; but that's codswallop.  You come on here quoting Biblical references and discussing theology;  yet you believe none of it.  Why then do you go on, ad nauseam?  To a point you do it because you think it 's an easy topic to deride, and you obviously enjoy scoring cheap points in debate:  fair enough.  But I think there is a deeper, psychological reason. It may be a longing to believe which you cannot quite reconcile; or it is some other deep hang-up. Maybe your mother was frightened by a vicar when she was pregnant  (  :) ) Whatever, and it would take counselling to establish why you all are the way you are, it is without doubt most odd the way you are so totally obsessed.   
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #477 on: July 31, 2015, 10:50:33 PM »
As usual, best form of defence is attack!  You are the one on here, among others, who obsess about something you don't even believe exists.

But theism - especially monotheism - does exist, Bashers. Alas. I wish it didn't just as I wish animal cruelty didn't exist, but unfortunately it does and as an anti-theist that's why I continue to argue against it.

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You make silly pretences that you are really interested in theists and why they believe; but that's codswallop.

More claims of dishonesty. If I thought there was any point at all in asking you how you claim to know this I'd do so, but I know you'll only duck, dive and dodge yet again.

Quote
You come on here quoting Biblical references and discussing theology;  yet you believe none of it.  Why then do you go on, ad nauseam?
Because as Vlad would be the very first - OK, maybe the second - to tell you, I'm an anti-theist. Theism is irrational, fatuous, juvenile and predicated on all the laziness of mind and slackness and sloppiness of thought that I detest, and it needs to be countered everywhere, all the time.

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To a point you do it because you think it 's an easy topic to deride, and you obviously enjoy scoring cheap points in debate:  fair enough.
No point scored is that cheap, and you can't not score all the points against something as ridiculous as theism.

Quote
But I think there is a deeper, psychological reason. It may be a longing to believe which you cannot quite reconcile; or it is some other deep hang-up. Maybe your mother was frightened by a vicar when she was pregnant  (  :) ) Whatever, and it would take counselling to establish why you all are the way you are, it is without doubt most odd the way you are so totally obsessed.   
You are, typically, incorrect.

Those home-study psychology courses - ask for your money back.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #478 on: July 31, 2015, 10:57:43 PM »
As usual, best form of defence is attack!  You are the one on here, among others, who obsess about something you don't even believe exists.

But theism - especially monotheism - does exist, Bashers. Alas. I wish it didn't just as I wish animal cruelty didn't exist, but unfortunately it does and as an anti-theist that's why I continue to argue against it.

Quote
You make silly pretences that you are really interested in theists and why they believe; but that's codswallop.

More claims of dishonesty. If I thought there was any point at all in asking you how you claim to know this I'd do so, but I know you'll only duck, dive and dodge yet again.

Quote
You come on here quoting Biblical references and discussing theology;  yet you believe none of it.  Why then do you go on, ad nauseam?
Because as Vlad would be the very first - OK, maybe the second - to tell you, I'm an anti-theist. Theism is irrational, fatuous, juvenile and predicated on all the laziness of mind and slackness and sloppiness of thought that I detest, and it needs to be countered everywhere, all the time.

Quote
To a point you do it because you think it 's an easy topic to deride, and you obviously enjoy scoring cheap points in debate:  fair enough.
No point scored is that cheap, and you can't not score all the points against something as ridiculous as theism.

Quote
But I think there is a deeper, psychological reason. It may be a longing to believe which you cannot quite reconcile; or it is some other deep hang-up. Maybe your mother was frightened by a vicar when she was pregnant  (  :) ) Whatever, and it would take counselling to establish why you all are the way you are, it is without doubt most odd the way you are so totally obsessed.   
You are, typically, incorrect.

Those home-study psychology courses - ask for your money back.

You just don't get it, or, more accurately, won't get it.  You have made your point about theism, sometime back in 1970, or something, and to waffle on about:  "Theism is irrational, fatuous, juvenile and predicated on all the laziness of mind and slackness and sloppiness of thought that I detest, and it needs to be countered everywhere, all the time" is just old hat, not to mention totally over the top.  Just why does it need to be countered, and I mean the theism of Christianity?  Radical Islam, maybe, but I don't notice much comment in that department.  No, you have a hang-up; it's unhealthy, and try as you may, you cannot justify it.  Sorry, old chap. 
 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 11:00:00 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #479 on: July 31, 2015, 11:07:06 PM »
You just don't get it, or, more accurately, won't get it.  You have made your point about theism, sometime back in 1970, or something, and to waffle on about:  "Theism is irrational, fatuous, juvenile and predicated on all the laziness of mind and slackness and sloppiness of thought that I detest, and it needs to be countered everywhere, all the time" is just old hat, not to mention totally over the top.  Just why does it need to be countered, and I mean the theism we of Christianity?  Radical Islam, maybe, but I don't notice much comment in that department.
Radical Islam is a minor problem in British society and culture. It exists, but far out on the margins, way out in the hole-and-corner lunatic fringes of small numbers of disaffected young men (usually) in deprived urban areas. This isn't to say that nothing should be done about it; it's to say that the priorities need to be kept straight. It's the established state Christian church which sought - for example - to prevent same-sex couples from having a civil (i.e. secular, i.e. absolutely none of their damned business) marriage. It's the same church that always chips in trying to prevent people from having the easeful, dignified and painless death they seek. And so forth. They can expect to stop being attacked about thirty seconds after they stop trying to interfere in the lives and deaths of people who don't share and have no interest whatever in their batty, backward superstition (which is by far the great majority of the population).

And in any case, in attacking theism one is attacking Islamic theism as much as Christian or Jewish theism. Anti-theism is precisely that - anti-theism.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 11:14:34 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #480 on: July 31, 2015, 11:22:02 PM »
You just don't get it, or, more accurately, won't get it.  You have made your point about theism, sometime back in 1970, or something, and to waffle on about:  "Theism is irrational, fatuous, juvenile and predicated on all the laziness of mind and slackness and sloppiness of thought that I detest, and it needs to be countered everywhere, all the time" is just old hat, not to mention totally over the top.  Just why does it need to be countered, and I mean the theism we of Christianity?  Radical Islam, maybe, but I don't notice much comment in that department.
Radical Islam is a minor problem in British society and culture. It exists, but far out on the margins, way out in the hole-and-corner lunatic fringes of small numbers of disaffected young men (usually) in deprived urban areas. This isn't to say that nothing should be done about it; it's to say that the priorities need to be kept straight. It's the established state Christian church which sought - for example - to prevent same-sex couples from having a civil (i.e. secular, i.e. absolutely none of their damned business) marriage. It's the same church that always chips in trying to prevent people from having the easeful, dignified and painless death they seek. And so forth.

And in any case, in attacking theism one is attacking Islamic theism as much as Christian or Jewish theism. Anti-theism is precisely that - anti-theism.

That is an ignorant and disgraceful comment.  There have been over a hundred terrorist atrocities in the UK since the 70's, including, of course, 7/7 in London, and the butchering of Lee Rigby; plus unknown numbers of thwarted plots or conspiracies.  You lamely quote such things same-sex marriage, yet that is changing anyway, and is hardly a like-threatening topic.  People here can live their lives free of any connection with the Church:  it need not impinge on anybody's life. You utterly over-state your case, and dismiss Islamic Radicalism which is a threat to our life and society.  Your position is untenable.

You say Islam has no effect on the culture here.  This is a quote from the Spectator:


"The introduction of a madrassa curriculum at a secular state school in Birmingham and talk of Christian pupils at risk of ‘cultural isolation’ seem to have come as a revelation to non-Muslim Britain. They should not have. Islam in Britain is dominated by a very specific, and rather illiberal, version of the faith — one that, if anything, seems to be becoming more conservative over time.

As the Muslim population became more established, one might have assumed that a westernised form of Islam would have come to dominate Britain’s mosques. According to a database of British Islam, however, only two out of 1,700 mosques in Britain follow modernist interpretations of the Koran. It’s not the same elsewhere in the West. In a 2011 survey of Islam in the United States, 56 per cent of mosques described themselves as following an interpretation of Islam adapted to modern circumstances. This has not happened in Britain."

There is an increasing, often worrying, influence of Islam on the culture here, in schools, through Sharia Law, and in a decided failure to integrate. 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 11:47:25 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #481 on: August 01, 2015, 08:53:06 AM »
That is an ignorant and disgraceful comment.  There have been over a hundred terrorist atrocities in the UK since the 70's, including, of course, 7/7 in London, and the butchering of Lee Rigby
Since the 70s? That's forty years at least - how many of these were directly and undisputably traceable to this radical Islam of which you speak?

Quote
plus unknown numbers of thwarted plots or conspiracies.
If they're unknown you can't factor them into your fantasies, then, can you?

Quote
You lamely quote such things same-sex marriage, yet that is changing anyway
In spite of religious objections - that's because although inexplicably in 2015 we remain a de jure religious nation, in societal terms we are already a religiously apatheistic and ignostic culture and thank goodness becoming increasingly more so by the year. What this means in practice is that weirdly we - we as in England, not Britain or the UK - still have an established church invincibly ignorant of just how utterly irrelevant it is to the overwhelming majority of the population yet still shrilly piping up from the sidelines whenever something crops up which it doesn't like.

Quote
People here can live their lives free of any connection with the Church: it need not impinge on anybody's life.
They were certainly trying to impinge on the lives of gay people hoping to marry, and they're still impinging on the lives of people who are suffering torments to which they wish to bring an end.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 09:01:30 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #482 on: August 01, 2015, 03:03:43 PM »
"...disaffected young men (usually) in deprived urban areas."
That is a pile of Marxist BS. Shaker is really trying to pile it on today. The truth is, and studies on radicalized Muslim youth back this up, most are educated, wealthy, and well integrated. Shaker is feeding us that Marxist crap about it boiling down to socioeconomics, and that is a blatant lie.

Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #483 on: August 01, 2015, 03:33:26 PM »
I was referring to the UK, not the USA's barren loft extension in which you reside.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 03:41:03 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #484 on: August 01, 2015, 04:46:04 PM »
Get educated Shaker. I wasn't talking N America in particular. For example, one of the studies on this comes out of Aarhus University. Do you know where Aarus is? Try Denmark.
Cut the Marxist BS Shaker. These young devils aren't living the tombstone blues, this is fact.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQNQdVG5DMY

BashfulAnthony

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #485 on: August 01, 2015, 06:01:11 PM »
That is an ignorant and disgraceful comment.  There have been over a hundred terrorist atrocities in the UK since the 70's, including, of course, 7/7 in London, and the butchering of Lee Rigby
Since the 70s? That's forty years at least - how many of these were directly and undisputably traceable to this radical Islam of which you speak?

Quote
plus unknown numbers of thwarted plots or conspiracies.
If they're unknown you can't factor them into your fantasies, then, can you?
[/b]
Quote
You lamely quote such things same-sex marriage, yet that is changing anyway
In spite of religious objections - that's because although inexplicably in 2015 we remain a de jure religious nation, in societal terms we are already a religiously apatheistic and ignostic culture and thank goodness becoming increasingly more so by the year. What this means in practice is that weirdly we - we as in England, not Britain or the UK - still have an established church invincibly ignorant of just how utterly irrelevant it is to the overwhelming majority of the population yet still shrilly piping up from the sidelines whenever something crops up which it doesn't like.

Quote
People here can live their lives free of any connection with the Church: it need not impinge on anybody's life.
They were certainly trying to impinge on the lives of gay people hoping to marry, and they're still impinging on the lives of people who are suffering torments to which they wish to bring an end.

I was quoting a list of atrocities and plots  (not specified for security reasons) made public by the Security Services.  I am not making this list up out of thin air.  From my own personal experience i am well aware that many Islamic youths are far from enamoured with our society, and indeed, a recent straw poll on BBC News, suggested that at least 50% of Islamic youth are sympathetic to Daesh.   Your complacent and ill-informed reaction is the kind of attitude which is a danger to our security.  An ignorant response from you 
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #486 on: August 01, 2015, 06:55:19 PM »
Shakey,
"...barren loft extension..."
Which reminds me, have you slithered out of your cellar and visited Scotland yet? Too funny that you are living right on it's door step and have never have bothered to visit. Have you managed London or Liverpool? (snork)

Shaker

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #487 on: August 01, 2015, 07:05:42 PM »
Scotland, not yet. London and Liverpool, more times than I can remember. (Or in some cases care to, as a dear friend of mine used to live in Toxteth  :-\ ).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

cyberman

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Re: What is the problem religionists have with secularism?
« Reply #488 on: August 04, 2015, 07:22:09 PM »

You should trace this little subthread back to its start, then you  might remember why you were arguing with me.

Or to summarise the thread:

Sorry jeremy, but there are no less atheist beliefs as there religious beliefs

Wrong.  Atheism is not believing in God.  That's it.  End of story.

No.

Then round the houses and up the garden path for a bit until...

And atheism is not believing in God, it's not  belief system.

Yes I know!

So what was the point of that useless little diversion you took us on?  You picked on a minor part of one of my replies to Hope and decided to be contrary for no good reason.

It wasn't minor, it was your claim about what defines atheism.
I have never claimed that atheism is a belief system.

Got in a muddle again, jp?